Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Examples mentioned before: * 24x80 console terminal for remote access of a server * previewing a 300 kPix image (that isn't much resolution!) without scrolling/zooming panning * monthly overview for a calendar where each day shows a reasonably useful content * reading 12pt text (not only seeing that there are lines) of a web page designed for =VGA without scrolling One more observation: TV systems initially started with approx. 300 lines (QVGA) and rapidly invented the half-line interlacing system to come to 500-600 lines (more than VGA). So, the early TV from the 40ies were not good enough but the 500-600 lines from the 50ies were good enough for 50 years. Now comes HDTV. The use case was unchanged: viewing broadcast movies. I think, generally everything *can* be done on a smaller resolution. The solutions are: * scrolling * flipping between pages * reducing content So, I am quite sure you will *not* find *any* application that is really *impossible* to use on QVGA... As said before - you can *use* a Porsche as a vehicle if it has at least one gear level. But would one buy it? BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. Hardware features are almost always better than software features, especially in open platforms where the software can be modified but the hardware not easily so. i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. SSH, Month view in calendar, reading books. All stuff that I need an x50v (VGA screen) to do now. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OM for ASIA
European. Pakistani GSM works on 900/1800MHz; Europe's does on 900/1800/1900; US does on 850/1800/1900. Regards, Markus Masoom Alam schrieb: Plus, I want to ask in this context that is which phone will be suitable for Pakistan, Europe one or the US one. Any location, where i can get this information. Regards, MM Alam On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 1:10 PM, shahbaz khan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have gone through some of the emails from this group about getting the Freerunner. I would like to know that is shipping done to Pakistan? I have not seen anything about Asian distributors yet. -- Shahbaz Khan Group: http://serg.imsciences.edu.pk Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: +92 300 5944647 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- (\./) (o.o) ( X ) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Monday 09 June 2008 02:56:22 Carsten Haitzler wrote: wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Try browsing the web in a QVGA window sometimes, IMHO it's an exercise in futility no matter if you try to relayout the site a la Opera or zoom like in the S60 browser. VGA is not be ideal either, but approaching useable on many sites as you at least stand a decent chance of seeing the entire width of the main content pane at once. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed. an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
On Sunday 08 June 2008 18:07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 08 June 2008 10:41:37 Brad Midgley wrote: Tim gpsd has a mode where it listens to both the gps and an online dgps source and produces corrected output. See the manpage for gpsd. I think you have to have the unit online continuously. Does gpsd have control over the various satelite signals? I thought D-GPS only works before position calculation. If gpsd only gets the composed position, then it's not possible to do D-GPS. I'm not an expert here, but maybe correction does require more raw data. It might depend on what the protocol is between gpsd and the gps. The gpsd docs don't shed any more light on it. It would be a good question for the gpsd mailing lists. The problem here is not with gpsd but rather that we might not be able to get the required raw satellite measurements out of the Antaris chip due to some licence restriction :( Not having a Freerunner at hand, I wrote a crude test program for accessing the required rxm-raw message of the GPS chip and sent it to Andy Green. The results were not encouraging - although I'd love to hear some official statement about the license status for the GPS chip before jumping to premature conclusions but currently it seems that DGPS will not be possible with the Freerunner. It indeed looks like that, which is a pity, because this could have been a feature really setting the Freerunner apart from other devices. AVee -- You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debug Board v3 (GTA02) now available
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:12 AM, Bastian Muck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess that there are many things which let the price raise. 61€ + 19% vat = 73€ Then you have to add shipping to germany. And in germany you have to grant a warranty of at least 24 month for technical equipment. Usually Christoph Pulster has fair prices. But how they manage to sell Freerunners for 299€ than? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. well, all that is possible even with eight of vga or even less. i see your point, but, i think there is no use case which fullfills your requirements -- as said above, everything is possible with even less resolution. those which use linux a long time and still remember the small screens of and the virtual screen X offered ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. If you are going to demand an example of an application which simply cannot be run on a QVGA screen, no matter how bad the user experience would be, then I guess people will have a hard time coming up with one. The same would be true of a 100 x 100 pixel screen. You could just scroll and scroll and scroll some more, and do what you need to do. You could just demand that everyone re-write their applications to accomodate a screen that is very small. We could all switch to reading text in Braille, whose characters can be displayed in a smaller cell than the fonts sighted persons usually use. But the question should not be Can you give me an example of something which can be done with a VGA screen but which absolutely cannot be done with a QVGA screen?. The question should be Are you willing to give up the benefits of a VGA screen in order to have smooth animation and fast video on a QVGA screen, and a lower cost?. It seems to me that the vast majority of the people who have reponded here have said no, that's a poor engineering trade off. In fact, I don't think even one person has responded that, for them, that trade off would be a good one. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
2008/6/6 steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Stroller you crack me up. (vi rules.) We need a religious war between the Digitii, the Stylii, and Quertii. Or three products? Rant away. Your views are always welcome. What of the Dvoraksai? I do think that thumb keyboards are best -- tactile feedback. Finding space for such is not terribly easy. There are clamshell designs, though that prevents you from using the primary display without opening the device; then there are sliding designs, which seem to have a bad angle. Thumb typing on a touchscreen is probably more efficient than using a stylus. Thumb typing on a keyboard is probably much faster than using a touchscreen. Though if people want a stylus holder, how hard would it be to design one that clips onto a Freerunner? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
My personal use cases for higher resolution: - programming on the freerunner. I've been learning Haskell, I want to get ghci or hugs on there and hack around with that. Also I'm thinking about running the glade editor on there, if that's possible. - using the freerunner as a remote control for amarok. I want to be able to see more than just a couple of songs of my collection. Hopefully the web-based amarok control is usable on 640x480. - GPS mapping. The more map, the better this is. - Calendar. I've used the palm calendar for a long time, and its just not that useful for seeing what's coming up at a high level. You end up having to step through one day at a time to see what events are on there. - Photo viewer. Hook up the freerunner to a digital camera and use it to view the photos at a higher resolution than the camera screen. By definition pointless unless you have higher resolution than the camera viewfinder. Most of these are not impossible with lower resolution - I used to do programming on my palm III which is only 160x160 I think. However, its much nicer on something with more real estate. Also, having more resolution allows us to use more programs that were not designed for openmoko without excessive scrolling, like the glade editor. To me these are real reasons to have more resolution, its not just eye candy and pointless feature-itis. Not that QVGA is a bad idea though - I'd like to see a low cost openmoko phone at some point, something directed at the low end cellphone market perhaps. If that was the only open phone around, I might even buy one. Given the choice though, I'll definitely spring for the high res option. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? High res in very important for me. If I were to buy a phone without a high-res screen, it may as well not even have a screen. My home phone does not have a screen and as a phone I have no problem with it. However, it is good for nothing other than making phone calls. That is fine because in the house I have other devices that perform the functions that I need. My portable device, on the other hand, must be capable of more, much more, and everything that is not audio (ie, voice calls or music) requires the use of the screen. Do not skim on that most important of interface devices. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain at the same time. Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240 usable space with qvga. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Chris Wright wrote: 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain at the same time. Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240 usable space with qvga. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think. If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent resolution. Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the same time. - Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
On 6/9/08, Chris Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Though if people want a stylus holder, how hard would it be to design one that clips onto a Freerunner? Normal cable clips? http://www.euroffice.co.uk/_image/item/_large/145723_0.jpg http://www.skandia.com.au/images/059es.jpg http://www.zipper-technik.de/bilder/sb.serie.gif http://www.internet-stationers.co.uk/Shop/istationers_shop/images/BL12601.jpg But I prefer attaching it to a wire which is mounted in the phone. That way, it will be faster available:) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Landscape keyboard
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Chris Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. Chris's comment about the keyboard in landscape mode popped an image into my head. Maybe it's been mentioned already, but I don't recall. The keyboard for landscape mode could be split in two and have half on the right, and half on the left. I think that may make it more suitable for thumb typing and take less area away. Someone will probably ask me to mock it up, but I'm a HW guy, so you really don't want me to try :) --Steve M ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading. You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes necessary for reading. 7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Landscape keyboard
I think it's a great idea. Kin to the old ergonomic keyboards. On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Chris Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. Chris's comment about the keyboard in landscape mode popped an image into my head. Maybe it's been mentioned already, but I don't recall. The keyboard for landscape mode could be split in two and have half on the right, and half on the left. I think that may make it more suitable for thumb typing and take less area away. Someone will probably ask me to mock it up, but I'm a HW guy, so you really don't want me to try :) --Steve M ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: San Diego and LA group sales
Russell Dwiggins wrote: I'd like to add myself to the LA group. That MIGHT mean you don't HAVE to buy 2 phones Kosa. :) Where are these groups listed, BTW? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
The only reason for me considering the Freerunner is the VGA display. I don't car much about videos on portable devices, but I want a sharp large screen for navigation (maps), browsing (www), reading/composing (email). If people want video devices they can get plenty devices out there, but there is no device available with the display specs of the Freerunner. Keep it that way! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
transflective QVGA
Sanyo Epson Transflective LTPS LCD display : Sanyo Epson Imaging Devices Corporation (Sanyo Epson) announced the development of a 2.8-inch transflective low-temperature polysilicon liquid-crystal display (LCD) with pixel-integrated RAM that offers low power consumption. http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/7/sanyo_epson_lcd_display/ And I guess they are not alone. It will be a long time until the price makes any sense, but it is nice technology:) Maybe something for GTA05. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: San Diego and LA group sales
Russell Dwiggins wrote: I'd like to add myself to the LA group. That MIGHT mean you don't HAVE to buy 2 phones Kosa. :) Los Angeles group: I've added Russell to the wiki page, and added my city and Russell's city as well. Could the rest of you update the wiki page to list your cities as well, please? Los Angeles covers a lot of ground, so having some idea of where in the LA area we all live will make it easier to coordinate. As we get closer to getting the news from Steve that the phones are ready to ship to Fremont CA, we'll need to start coordinating getting the money together and placing the order with OpenMoko. I'm thinking that I can plot our cities on a Google Map and work out a 'central' place for everyone to meet, then send out a few dates/times when people want to meet -- I'll bring the Freerunner that I've been testing with so everyone can check it out. Ian Douglas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
On 6/9/08, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/6/9 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]: With a modular design like that, then you could have one device shipped out with many configurations possible. You could then buy the external case for playing games, one with a keyboard, etc. That would really set it appart. So how about thinking of th 03 and onward in such a modular way? Oh, my vote is for usb. I would also vote for a USB connection. Easier to set up, and the peripheral can take power from the phone. It is good that the Y cable is invented:) I hope a case like this will be available! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
The clean font family
You may find it interesting to examine the clean font family, in the X11 core distribution. It contains around 30 fonts in fixed-pitch pixel cells ranging from 4x6 to 8x16 and 9x15. A few sizes (esp. 8px width) include bold weights and there are even a couple of italics. Just fire up an xterm with the font of your choice and see how it looks, but do note that the automatic smear bolding does not produce good results. The 4x6 font uses a 3x5 pixel character cell, reserving a single pixel each for inter-line and inter-character spacing. The glyphs are all unique, for the 7-bit ASCII range. A number of optical illusions make it possible to read text at this size. Your brain actually pattern-matches on the shape of the words. Larger fonts are always easier to read. This font essentially represents the limit of legibility for bitmapped fonts. Still, I do not recommend using the 4x6 at ~300dpi. It was designed for ~75dpi. The whole point of reaching the 250dpi+ range is that the individual pixels SHOULD become indistinguishable, leading to a qualitatively different visual experience. This is similar to the smooth color rendition we get with CMYK half-toned dots in a magazine. -- Forwarded message -- From: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:11:37 +0200 Subject: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!) 2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading. You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes necessary for reading. 7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading Dotan Cohen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Why not? I do it on a nokia n800. I don't use it a massive amount but it is fairly usable and that's also only 480px high (in freerunner landscape, in freerunner portrait it's 640px high). On Mon, 9 Jun 2008, Robert Taylor wrote: Chris Wright wrote: 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain at the same time. Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240 usable space with qvga. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think. If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent resolution. Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the same time. - Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: San Diego and LA group sales
Great! I would like to buy two anyway but I can get just one for now. This is the link to the group sales in the wiki. Since no one besides you have answered I haven't joined the grouo yet, but if that's okay with the others I'll do it. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#California Cheers! Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - Russell Dwiggins escribi: I'd like to add myself to the LA group. That MIGHT mean you don't HAVE to buy 2 phones Kosa. :) Where are these groups listed, BTW? Russell Cerritos, CA On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 21:13 -0500, Kosa wrote: Hi guys, Well, as some of you know I'm from Mxico, and I'm not being very succesfull about making a group to buy a 10 pack. I'm sure some of my friends will buy a Freerunner when I show them what we can do with it, but right now I almost alone here. I was wondering if we could join LA, San Diego groups and myself, wich right now makes 3 + 5 + 2, as I'm willing to buy two of them. That would make a 10 pack already. I have a friend living in Tijuana and he might go to San Diego to pick them up.He's coming to the Mexico City, where I live, on June 23th and it would be great if the store opens before that, but if it doesn't we might find a way to make this work. Thanks for even considering this. And thank you all for making this waiting as fun and interesting as it has been. I'm not sure about the words to use, but I just wanna let you know that I've smiled (of joy) a lot of times reading your posts. Some of them have been with me for days and weeks. Some of the things I've read here has surpiresed me as very few things before. Thank you very very very much. Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03
with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. well, all that is possible even with eight of vga or even less. i see your point, but, i think there is no use case which fullfills your requirements -- as said above, everything is possible with even less resolution. those which use linux a long time and still remember the small screens of bygone days and the virtual screen X offered, remember even the measure of annoyance the scrolling, zooming and moving of the screen included. i have used several lcd screens with nearly the same physical size (15) and different resolutions -- and i am convinced nothing beats resolution! the reasons have been named several times, there's no need to repeat them. if the vga support xrandr and switching the qvga makes things really faster -- why changing hardware to qvga? leave it to the user ... as said before: i don't think there is that kind of use case you request. regards ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
regarding the 'data security' thread recently
I see that the 3G iPhone will now have a 'remote wipe' feature similar to what we've all been discussing. Other highlights in a poorly-formatted list: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1839tag=nl.e589 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
Am Mo 9. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: On 6/9/08, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/6/9 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]: With a modular design like that, then you could have one device shipped out with many configurations possible. You could then buy the external case for playing games, one with a keyboard, etc. That would really set it appart. So how about thinking of th 03 and onward in such a modular way? Oh, my vote is for usb. I would also vote for a USB connection. Easier to set up, and the peripheral can take power from the phone. It is good that the Y cable is invented:) Was a fun and a pleasure ;-) You're welcome! /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels. Regards Peter Kraker Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed. an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It describes a sequence of interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim my academic history :) i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:11:37 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading. You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes necessary for reading. it can. given a well made font. done it before. see my previous mail with some examples. when used as an actual font they are readable and recognisable as their intended character (once you get used to the font). 7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:51:58 + (UTC) elektrolott [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: The only reason for me considering the Freerunner is the VGA display. I don't car much about videos on portable devices, but I want a sharp large screen for navigation (maps), browsing (www), reading/composing (email). If people want video devices they can get plenty devices out there, but there is no device available with the display specs of the Freerunner. Keep it that way! lots of devices out there with the same specs - or much better. 800x480 @3.2 or even 2.8 are out there and selling. on shelves - from major manufacturers. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:10:22 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc, when only using 3 pixels? 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars take more space than others. you make little shapeless blobs of the chars :) you can tell the difference (though it's a terminal - if you start going into intl. chars like æ etc. imho you are exiting the vt100 world - you could argue that you can't read 魚 in a 3 pixel (+ 1 space) font either... so i draw the line at basic ascii for a terminal. nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg: % # # # # # S ## # # # ## s ## ## ## ## $ # ## ## # ## ## # @ ## # # ### ### ### # ## # # # # # ### # # ### # # # # o # # # # # # -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:15:26 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force myself to get by with. have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but definitely functional. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? High res in very important for me. If I were to buy a phone without a high-res screen, it may as well not even have a screen. My home phone does not have a screen and as a phone I have no problem with it. However, it is good for nothing other than making phone calls. That is fine because in the house I have other devices that perform the functions that I need. My portable device, on the other hand, must be capable of more, much more, and everything that is not audio (ie, voice calls or music) requires the use of the screen. Do not skim on that most important of interface devices. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:16:11 +0200 Peter J. Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 2008-06-09 09:09:15 -0400, Ken Young wrote: The question should be Are you willing to give up the benefits of a VGA screen in order to have smooth animation and fast video on a QVGA screen, and a lower cost?. It seems to me that the vast majority of the people who have reponded here have said no, that's a poor engineering trade off. I don't have an openmoko yet, so I don't know how the display actually looks or how slow it is. I also don't know what I will use the freerunner for once I get it. But I image that the majority of uses involves text (email, news, ssh) which should really be displayed at 80 chars/line. Probably simple graphics, too (e.g., maps). But I don't think I'll use it to watch videos or play 3d games - so high video performance isn't a high priority for me. My gut feeling is that 640x480 at 2.8 is awfully small (I've printed a screen-shot of an 80x25 windows (with mutt displaying a message from this list) at that size - I can read it, but I think reading longer messages at that font size would be a pain). So I think the direction openmoko should be going in later models (GTA04?) is towards a larger display with at least the same resolution (maybe 640x480 at 4.2, or maybe a wider display (800x480?)) this is a core part of my point. i stare at this screen every day. i know its dpi. most people imho will never make use of such a dpi as they literally can't see it - they will NEED to use much bigger fonts just to see something other than a blur. thus the resolution usefulness degrades rapidly. the but i can't do 80x24 without vga is moot as it is a blur, unless you go up to a font size where all you can fit is 60 wide or less. i am surprised at the number of people who say their eyesight is so good they will happily use tiiiny fonts on a vga 2.8 screen @ 285dpi. i accept that you can - i am just surprised at the number of people who say they can actually see this - compared to what i have actually seen in real life with much lower dpi situations. maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and they might begin to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and not as bad as they think. the things you want to do are possible at lower resolutions. browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have suggested, is really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web pages are designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor (imho) :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
SMT is running!
So I got word from the factory that we have our date. And we got the line. And parts are being planted on boards this week. I know it's been a long wait for everybody, but the stone is almost to the top of the hill. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I said this in the channel but you weren't there. We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision. On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels. Regards Peter Kraker Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi: On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that make real sense. :) This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single potential customer who says I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been several here on this list, if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that. no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop a feature. note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible i know: 1. u may need to scroll more 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur away all character details). with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by: 1. scaling data 2. changing font sizes 3. re-arranging ui elements etc. no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or better. it's just a more extreme case. no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed. an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though. at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know. right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change. gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one way or another. as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show off with? BTW: a use
Re: SMT is running!
push the ROCK let itROLL!! --- El mar, 10/6/08, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: SMT is running! Para: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' community@lists.openmoko.org Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 3:39 So I got word from the factory that we have our date. And we got the line. And parts are being planted on boards this week. I know it's been a long wait for everybody, but the stone is almost to the top of the hill. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
ti, 2008-06-10 kello 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler kirjoitti: but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below vga. As a =VGA advocate (for all the stated reasons; web browsing, terminals, better maps, text reading etc.), yes, a lower resolution model may be quite okay. Personally though, it'd be a shame if in the future, for instance, I'd have to pick between UMTS-capable and VGA-resolution OM phones, in the scenario that you put out an UMTS phone with a lesser resolution with no new high-resolution model imminent... The features are to some extent complementary in the sense that more resolution makes the better bandwidth and latency more useful (aside from just wanting both features for their own sake, of course ;). I _could_ actually see the point in making GTA03 a QVGA phone though, since it wouldn't apparently offer much more than an 02 in the way of other features. It could be the display cost-cut version of GSM OM phones... (Personally though, I would've gone straight 3G after GTA02 to get one of those beasts out reasonably fast, since GSM is, well, aged, and lacking 3G is starting to be a major misfeature. But I don't claim to have done market studies on the case...) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
