Re: Import Duty - I have refused my delivery.

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Some thoughts:

1) you are responsible for import duties, no external shipper can know
the import duties for all territories, and so take the risk.

2) Furthermore, it's slightly unusual (if at all possible) for the
sender to pay the import duty.

3) Import duties are legal, and not really avoidable.

4) While computer stuff has 0% import duty in the EU, you need to pay
the VAT on the import. No idea what the VAT level is in the UK.

5) Refusing the delivery doesn't imply that you'll get the payment back.
Especially the sending costs have already occured, and to get your phone
back to Taiwan it will cost again money.

Andreas

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Just thought you all might like to know that OpenMoko shipments are
> attracting import duty in the United Kingdom.
> 
> Despite paying USD104.99 for 'expedited' shipping, my order arrived with
> a demand for GBP57.19 in import duty. This should either be factored
> into the shipping charge or, as these devices are technically 'computer
> peripherals', described as 'computer peripherals' in order that they do
> not attract import duty.
> 
> I have REFUSED my delivery and it is being returned to the depot and,
> presumably, will be returned to sender.
> 
> I either want a new shipment that does not attract import duty *or* I
> want a full refund.
> 
> I know these are developer releases but I would have hoped that OpenMoko
> would have sorted out the international shipping issues properly.
> 
> 
> I'm annoyed!
> 
> David.
> 
> 
> This email and any files attached are intended for the addressee and may
> contain information of a confidential nature. If you are not the
> intended recipient, be aware that this email was sent to you in error
> and you should not disclose, distribute, print, copy or make other use
> of this email or its attachments. Such actions, in fact, may be
> unlawful. In compliance with the various Regulations and Acts, General
> Dynamics United Kingdom Limited reserves the right to monitor (and
> examine for viruses) all emails and email attachments, both inbound and
> outbound. Email communications and their attachments may not be secure
> or error- or virus-free and the company does not accept liability or
> responsibility for such matters or the consequences thereof. General
> Dynamics United Kingdom Limited, Registered Office: 100 New Bridge
> Street, London EC4V 6JA. Registered in England and Wales No: 1911653.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: 3G sim cards

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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No, for Neo GTA01 it's probably a focus on software. Guess they did not
find a better GSM/UMTS module in time.

Andreas

Xamindar wrote:
> Whao, I didn't know that.  I assumed it at least had edge.  That totally
> sucks if it is only has GPRS.  What is going on with new phones these
> days?  Seems like they are going backwards in speeds, i-phone and now this.
> HSDPA support?  Why not?  Is it licensing issues?
> 
> 
> Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
> edge speeds? *lol* The GTA01 at least has pure classic GPRS.
> 
> Andreas
> 
> Xamindar wrote:
>   
>>>> I have a simple question related to 3G.  Why doesn't the neo support
>>>> 3G?  I have had my Cingular 3G phone for a year now and I can't imagine
>>>> ever going back to Edge speeds.  And sence this phone has a 640x480
>>>> screen and powerful processor it is great for the faster speed network.
>>>> I would really love to change my "3G phone+Zaurus" combination over to
>>>> one openmoko phone.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___
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>>>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>>>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>>> 
>>

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Re: OpenMoko/GTA01 project advice

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Nelson Castillo wrote:
> On 7/27/07, Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> (cut)
>>> * Will we be able to use the GSM directly? I am new to
>>> this, and I'd like to know if we can make a GSM call
>>> (to other Neo) and send arbitrary data.
>> Yes and no. You cannot make a Voice call and send arbitrary data. You
>> can make a data call (so called CSD) and send arbitrary data. Trouble is
>> that this is clearly visible to the operator as the call is signaled
>> differently, so if you are trying to avoid data call costs, it's not
>> possible.
> 
> We didn't know about CSD. Good. We are not trying to avoid any cost. We
> just care about the latency of the GPRS link which renders it rather unusable,
> at least in our country.

I don't think that the latency of CSD is much better than the GPRS one.
Plus CSD means 14400 bits per second at absolute best.

Andreas

> 
>> As a mental model, you can think of the Neo as an Linux/ARM based PDA
>> with an embedded GSM modem.
> 
> :)
> 
> Regards.
> 
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Re: OpenMoko/GTA01 project advice

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Nelson Castillo wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> We are starting a project and we will use a
> Neo GTA01 ( We are also waiting for it to ship :) ).
> We will need at least two more, but we need to try
> one first.
> 
> We need to:
> 
> * Make calls to send arbitrary data (We'd like to
>  use the GSM for data)
> * Record voice messages on the phone and send them to
>  another user (via GSM)
> 
> I have a few questions:
> 
> * Will we be able to use the GSM directly? I am new to
> this, and I'd like to know if we can make a GSM call
> (to other Neo) and send arbitrary data.

Yes and no. You cannot make a Voice call and send arbitrary data. You
can make a data call (so called CSD) and send arbitrary data. Trouble is
that this is clearly visible to the operator as the call is signaled
differently, so if you are trying to avoid data call costs, it's not
possible.

As a mental model, you can think of the Neo as an Linux/ARM based PDA
with an embedded GSM modem.

Andreas
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Re: 3G sim cards

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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edge speeds? *lol* The GTA01 at least has pure classic GPRS.

Andreas

Xamindar wrote:
> I have a simple question related to 3G.  Why doesn't the neo support
> 3G?  I have had my Cingular 3G phone for a year now and I can't imagine
> ever going back to Edge speeds.  And sence this phone has a 640x480
> screen and powerful processor it is great for the faster speed network.
> I would really love to change my "3G phone+Zaurus" combination over to
> one openmoko phone.
> 
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
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Re: 3G sim cards

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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They basically should work, but the device does only 2G :), no EGPRS ;)

Andreas

Harrison Metzger wrote:
> Is there any way to make a 3G sim card work in the device (even if it
> does 2.5g)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Data Link Disable Capability?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Actually, philosophically, by default it's disabled. You need to run a
pppd to connect, as a GSM modem just provides one with a modem emulation.

Now the question is if the software will automatically connect you, but
I guess, there will be always an option to turn it off.

(E.g. one idea that comes to mind, even if the software insists on
respawning the pppd all the time, would be to set the APN to something
not existing. This would make the pppd connections fail all the time ;))

Andreas

Giles Jones wrote:
> 
> On 26 Jul 2007, at 19:21, David Gathright wrote:
> 
>>
>> So, will OpenMoko let you disable the data link?
> 
> Anything and everything is possible.
> 
> Hopefully it would be a possibility via the interface. Otherwise the
> shell is your friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Valerio Bruno wrote:
> Forum is a better tool for heavy communication than ML, and it's the only one
That it is a better tool is just an assertion that I don't concur with.

> usable by non-technic newbie user (like a 14 years old boy that plays with his
> phone.)

Well, 14 years are strongly technic, IMHO. Well, not every 14 years old
writes compilers for fun, as I did. And I'm old enough that email was
not really available back then for a teenager :(

Andreas
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Re: Why you won't find me in the forum much

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Giles Jones wrote:
> Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
> 
>> it's open-source (BSD license), so all the code is available to build
>> on whatever environment/architecture you want (as far as my limited
>> understanding of portable code/interpretation of the gears wiki goes,
>> anyway)
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/google-gears/
>>
>> i might look into this - gears piqued my interest a while back, but i
>> never had a suitable project for it
> 
> This is the problem though, why should someone spend hours porting an 
> application to their phone just to be able to read a list they can perfectly 
> easily read now?
> 
> I find this a bit crazy given this is a project to develop software for a 
> mobile handset. We should be very aware of the limitations of a mobile 
> device, CPU speed, memory and download speed. 

Hint: These people never used mobile data sets, so have no idea about
the limitations. Furthermore, the limitations are so that you cannot
really help them:

a) bandwidth: classical solutions for these are more caching (doesn't
work, we do have a strictly limited memory budget), or more calculation
on the client (which is limited in speed, and would lower the battery
endurance, which is already low with "data" phones :( )

b) memory: storing more stuff on the server is not really an option with
GPRS speed communications, for most use cases.

Andreas
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Re: Why you won't find me in the forum much

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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A simple thing. Parse and extract all messages. That would be the first
important step. Ooops, every forum software creates something unique,
you've got not only x different kinds of forum software packages, no you
usually can change the HTML generated to your tastes. So an external
solution is a nonstarter.

Andreas


Mathew Davis wrote:
> 
> So there is still no forum solution that I know of that allows me to
> download the full content of all posts I haven't read yet, and read
> them
> on a random small device (e.g. a Treo650, or a Nokia N800, or a Sharp
> Zaurus) that supports offline email reading and replying.
> 
>  
> Sounds like a good nitch to hit.  I would be interested in a program
> like that I wonder what it would take to make one?
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
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AW: Re: email vs forum

[Andreas Kostyrka]

The average customer won't wait for the "few simple" web clicks, at least not 
on a device that has only a GPRS connection. The Nokia E61 browser has a nice 
KB counter and it's incredible how huge current web sites have gotten. (and 
there is only limited hope of improvement, as we want the websites to have the 
functionality, don't we).

Email download OTOH can happen in the background.

And before you assert that this is not true ;), let me provide a simple example,
www.sms.at. Just downloading the SMS send form (using a direct URL) is > 300KB. 
Posting it takes around 150KB. Now that's a small and valid example, slashdot 
frontpage is way bigger. With GPRS speeds that means about 2 minutes before you 
can start typing, and over a minute to see that the SMS has been posted. In 
practice that's unusable even for a hardcore user like myself. btw, that 
process gets barely useable with UMTS speeds.

Andreas

-- Ursprüngl. Mitteil. --
Betreff:Re: email vs forum
Von:ramsesoriginal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Datum:  25.07.2007 13:44

On 7/25/07, Sebastian Krause <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ramsesoriginal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > -E-mail: loading hunderts of  e-mails with questions  that have been
> > discuted at least 300 times  and hunderts of flaming e-mails, and maybe
> > dozends of "i need this and that app" e-mails, just to see that there's
> no
> > kews in the development of the navigation system (the info you where
> looking
> > for)
> > -Webforum: click on a shortcut in the favorites, log in, jump to
> category
> > "application development -> navigation system", seeing that there's
> nothing
> > new, closing the connection.
>
> Just that a few page views on a heavily bloated forum web site
> already means more traffic than a bzip2-compressed UUCP batch of 300
> mails.
>
> And still, if you just only want to quickly view if there are new
> messages on the server, you're free to use IMAP.


nice. And now explain this to your Grandmother. Because as Einstein said:
"you have only understood something whe you can explain it to your
grandmother".
For you it's easy to say that "you simply have to use IMAP", but the average
consumer that only needs to knoe the answer to his question probably isn't
going to learn how to set it up.




-- 
My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com
My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com

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Re: Duplicate message troubleshooting

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Ok, putting on my Postmaster hat, could you please provide Message Ids
and headers for messages from heaven.kostyrka.org that were sent
duplicate? Please use private mail.

Andreas

Marco Barreno wrote:
> Messages to the list are being duplicated again.  Some of the messages
> are from Gmail, but not all (e.g. some are from kostyrka.org and
> cnlohr.com).  I can try to help debug the problem from the Gmail end
> if an admin on the list machine can send me verbose SMTP logs; please
> see below for details.  Harald or Sean, can one of you send detailed
> logs?  Anyone else?
> 
> Some Gmail message IDs with duplicated messages today:
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Thanks,
> Marco
> 
> 
> - Forwarded message from Marco Barreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -
> 
> From: Marco Barreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:36:57 -0700
> To: "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: Re: gmail.com problems and this list
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> Short version:
> 
> It seems the duplicated messages are not just a Gmail problem: mails
> are also being duplicated from starband.net and possibly others as
> well, so it seems the problem is likely something on the openmoko side
> that only happens to cause duplicates with some sending domains and
> not others.  I'ts also not consistent; some messages from Gmail and
> starband.net are duplicated while others aren't.
> 
> I've checked with the Gmail team, and the duplicated messages from
> Gmail are happening because Gmail doesn't receive the SMTP OK from the
> openmoko list server, so it retransmits because it thinks the messages
> don't get delivered.  To debug further, an admin on the list machine
> needs to enable verbose SMTP logging if it's not already enabled and
> provide information about if/when the OK is sent.  Here are some
> example message IDs for which the logs would be useful:
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If verbose logging isn't already enabled, however, enabling it and
> then sending logs for any future duplicated messages would work too.
> 
> 
> Detailed version:
> 
> On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 11:14:03PM -0700, thus spake Wolfgang S. Rupprecht:
>> At least one of the opemoko machines at 88.198.124.203 opens an smtp
>> connection back to the sending domain to verify the sender address of
>> any incoming message.  The smtp-back machine has messed up DNS.  The
>> claimed rDNS for that IP is "openmoko.org" but the forward DNS check
>> for that "openmoko.org" doesn't list 88.198.124.203 as a valid
>> address.  If the sending machine is checking for spammers claiming a
>> bunk DNS name will reject 88.198.124.203's SMTP verify.  The opemmoko
>> machine will then interpret that failed smtp verify attempt as the
>> verified address not existing and will decline the initial incoming
>> transfer.
> 
> Even ignoring the messed-up DNS for the moment, doing an SMTP callback
> is not a good way to check existence of an email account.  For one
> thing, whenever a spammer spoofs a From address in an innocent domain,
> that domain can get bombarded with callbacks.  For another thing,
> spammers sometimes use RCPT commands themselves to check existence of
> email addresses, so ISPs are likely to consider many such requests to
> be abusive behavior.  In the case of a large ISP (such as Gmail), if a
> lot of email is sent to a destination that does callbacks, the
> frequency of callbacks can trigger abuse prevention measures.  See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callback_verification for more drawbacks.
> (In particular, note: "If a server receives a lot of spam, it will do
> a lot of callbacks and if those addresses are invalid, the server will
> look very similar to a spammer who is doing a dictionary attack to
> harvest addresses. This in turn might get the server blacklisted
> elsewhere.")
> 
> For these reasons, Gmail strongly recommends avoiding callbacks and
> instead checking SPF records (Sender Policy Framework, provided via
> DNS) to verify that the mail is indeed coming from Google (i.e. the
> SMTP connection is coming from an IP authorized to send email on
> behalf of Google).
> 
> However, in this case it does not seem that the problem was caused by
> the callbacks.  The openmoko server accepted the mail (which it
> wouldn't do if the callback failed to verify the sender) and the DATA
> command was sent, but Gmail never received the next SMTP OK
> acknowledgment before timing out.  So one of four things was
> happening:
> 
> 1) openmoko never sent the OK -- problem on openmoko end
> 2) openmoko waited too long before sending the OK and SMTP timed out
> -- seems to indicate problem on the openmoko end
> 3) the OK was lost in transit -- network difficulties, neither side
> at fault
> 4) the OK was received by Gmail -- problem at the Gmail end
> 
> Since at least one other domain i

Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Jonathon Suggs wrote:

> Well, I've said it before and I will say it again.  We are not wanting
> to kill the mailing lists!!!  We are wanting to supplement the mailing
> list with a forum.  I cannot see ANY reason why this would be a bad thing.

Well, it splits the community into two subcommunities. The number of
users that will bother to use both forms of communication will probably
be small.

Additionally there is currently no need for "customer"-level
communications at the moment. What will you answer? Considering the fact
that many features are still not completely stable, and many features
are completely missing. So what can you answer truthfully to some troll
that wants to know if the phone will support syncing with Outlook 97?
Will it support push mail? Is it better than the iPhone?

Bluntly speaking, creating an enduser support forum is something that is
the job of FIC, isn't it?

Andreas
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Re: List Config

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Your description could be about two things:

1.) gmail.com is acting up with the openmoko mailing lists, and has been
for some time now. gmail mails end up being sent multiple times. That's
something that google needs to fix, not much openmoko can do about that.

2.) When people reply to your mail on the mailing list, one of the
traditional ways to do so has been to use "Reply All". The rationale for
this tradition is so that you get a second copy of the mail directly,
which depending upon the mailing list might be hours faster than the
mailing list. Another benefit of this setup is that if you sort
automatically mailing list mails into folders, you still get a copy that
gets delivered into your INBOX directly.

Neither of these problems can be solved by setting a Reply-To header.

Andreas

Donald Organ wrote:
> Can someone fix the lists so that replies go to the list not the sender?
> I seem to be getting at least two of every email that is going out to
> the lists.
> 
> 
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Well, you started to get personal.

Now, a newbie forum is fine, do as you like. Although one might argue
that you are splitting the community in two.

The problem is that you need a communication tool that is appropriate
for newbies. And it must be appropriate for power user, or you'll have
trouble to get enough answers for the questions your newbies ask.

Now, if the FIC decides that they want to have forums (and notice that
typically mobile manufacturers don't have forums on their site), they
will have the additional option of paying the answerers.

But currently, you are advocating an end user newbie communication tool,
for a device that can (perhaps?) dial a number without hacking a Unix
command line.

Furthermore as an example for a pure newbie "forum" that runs as a
mailing list, and runs well, take a look at the Python Tutor mailing
list, where we regular deal with computer illiterates that have problems
even writing a simple mail.

You should consider the fact that, in a pure FOSS "market", you have
newbies that post questions and advanced users that answer questions.
Now, it's easy to find newbies, it's way harder to get professionals to
donate their time to answer questions. Using a tool that is NOT good at
heavy communication to make it more hassle for these advanced users is
not a good strategy. Now, if you have a company that is willing to pay
employees to answer these questions, you have at least a partial
solution. Although it's still a solution for support, and not for a
community, but who cares ;)

Andreas

Jonathon Suggs wrote:
> Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
>> My mail client sorts and deletes mailing posts for me :)
>>
>> 
>>  at least if you use a sensible client.
>>   
> AGAIN, you are forgetting who we are targeting with a forum!  They will
> be using Outlook.  They will NOT be setting up filters or doing anything
> other than hitting Send/Receive!
>> The theoretical aspects are that Email is way more organized and
>> standardized than the average html page.
>>   
> We are not talking about "average html pages"  We are talking about
> setting up forum software that will correctly format html pages for the
> task that they would be providing.
> 
> You are directly embodying the persona that characterizes the people
> that give FOSS a bad rep with "average users."  You assume them to all
> be at the same technical level as you.  You would just as soon tell them
> to change their MUA and setup filters as opposed to actually help them
> with their problems.  This type of arrogance will be what (potentially)
> keeps people from using OpenMoko/FOSS despite its technical merits.
> 
> I'll try to keep this civil, but PLEASE stop thinking only about
> yourself.  What is being proposed is not to kill the mailing list.  What
> we ARE proposing if you (collective you) would listen is to supplement
> the mailing list with a forum.  WHY ARE YOU RESISTING
> 
> -Jonathon
> 
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Well, mailman (which openmoko uses) has integrated support for Usenet
gatewaying.

That would add one further option for people that want to keep up with
the communication at their own pace.

Plus there seem to a number of web <-> nntp tools where one would need
to look over them which one would provide the best web forum like
experience for users.

Andreas

Ben Burdette wrote:
> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Daniel Robinson wrote:
>>>
>>> The goal is communication, not rightness.  How is communication best
>>> served?
>>>
>>
>> duh, use both mailing lists and forums.  any new forum post -> new
>> post to the list.  and vice versa.
> 
> That was my thought too.  Anyone know of an existing solution?
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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www.google.com? (Hint: add a site:openmoko.com or so to your query)

Andreas

Jacques Poulin wrote:
> Is there a web form to search the mailing lists ?
>  
> I didn't find it, and didn't want to ask if that had been asked before,
> but since I can't find the search form, well, I'm asking :-)
>  
> I prefer forums over lists because forums are a lot less distracting... 
> but at least when the lists are searchable, there's a way to find the
> info you want without wasting hours going through threads...
>  
> I mean, I'm getting over 10 digests every day, I can't even begin to
> consider being subscribed to this list when the word spreads...
Why would you want to use digests? Even Outlook can handle filtering and
sorting your email.

To put it differently, there is at least one Linux based gadget that I
use, that I'd probably put some time into it (it's my sat receiver ;) ),
where I don't participate, because the community organizes around a
forum. Well, end effect the community is very static and very small, and
  slowly dieing :(

Andreas
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Mark wrote:
> On 7/24/07, Daniel Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you
>> would
>> find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different
>> forum UIs
>> is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to
>> address.
>>
>> To state, axiomatically,  that mailing lists are more efficient is to
>> attempt proof by assertion.
>>
> I think  you may fine that mailing lists are more efficient if you
> want to read all information that comes across the list.
> 
> If however, you don't care about a significant portion of the posts
> (like I have stopped caring to see this one). A forum is more
> efficient cause you end up deleting it over and over again instead of
> just not clicking on that thread.

Not correct. My mail client sorts and deletes mailing posts for me :)

Actually, I use a model, where all mailing list posts arrive in the
INBOX, and get sorted away only my explicit command. And my mailing list
folders automatically delete everything that gets to old.

If I need to look up something old, I can always google through the
archives, or download the whole archive.

The point is, that ignoring post that don't interest me has costs
axiomatically near to 0, at least if you use a sensible client. The
point is that almost every mail client is better suited to communication
work than basically every forum that I do know. Worse, at least to my
personal selection of tools, it's more time consuming for me to join a
forum to reply to some posts that I've googled, than to resuscitate an
archived mailing list post that I've found, so that I can reply directly
to it.

The theoretical aspects are that Email is way more organized and
standardized than the average html page. And to make that observation
relevant, one needs to add the observation that the usage model of
emails is quite compatible for community communications.

While html over http, is in no way optimized for communications.

And to answer the "I don't want to show my email address" to the world.
Well. Hint: email address are a near-zero cost commodity. And I
personally find it usually useful that a prospective customer can be
handed my email address (and the short list of previous emails that I've
used in the last 14 or so years), and he can see all my participation by
simply googling. With forums, there is no way to know if MrX is me, or
some other different MrX. Now if I want to post something that I do not
associated with my professional identity, I just need to select the pull
 down menu in my mail client, to select another identity. Even funnier,
there are services that provide all kinds of disposable email addresses,
 what ever your particular need (some would say paranoia, but I say
need, as there are valid reasons for all kinds of shades of anonimity.
Btw, I can have reliable anonymity with email by using mixmaster. Way
more difficult with webforums.)

Andreas

> 
>> The goal is communication, not rightness.  How is communication best
>> served?
>>
> Most people seem to specialize and therefore don't actually care about
> all posts, so I think a forum is marginally more suited especially
> when most of the traffic is dedicated to dumb arguments like this one
> (which I realize I have now participated in).
> 
> So to increase communication I really think both solutions,
> synchronized is best.  But I really think it should wait for some
> official word if an official one is on its way (and delayed by more
> important things like shipping the phones).
> Mark
> 
>> --Dan
>>
>>  On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long
>>> time
> email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the "http
> protocol". If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) )
> 
> And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are
>>> quite
> well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list
> management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same
> behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these
> in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less
> depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists,
> because they use a standard interface.
> 
> Navigating 20 different "forums", is not feasible:
> 
> -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be
>>> already
> using to read messages.
> 
> -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login
> (depending upon the fo

Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Hans L wrote:
> I'm guessing that's not what you really meant, but I'm still not sure
> your point is.  Are you saying that if you don't want your email
> address harvested by spammers, then you should not participate in
> discussions about openmoko at all?  Keeping your email address private
> IS a valid reason for the use of forums.

Then use something like spamgourmet.org, setup your spam filter, etc.

> 
>> As for forums, they are very nice for casual use.   They are terrible
>> for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively.   The nice
>> thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your
>> inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose.
>> And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it.
> 
> There are plenty of ways of "staying in touch" when using a web forum.
> Almost every forum I have used has some way to "subscribe" or "watch"
> particular threads.  When you visit the site, you can view a list of
> all your subscribed threads that have been updated since your last

That's exactly my point => "almost every" has "some" way to implement
standard functionality. That's really not very efficient, isn't it?

> visit.  You also have the option to get email notifications each

Well, why would I want to have email notification if I cannot reply in
my mail client?

> time(or as daily/weekly digests) those threads are updated.  In my
> opinion the best thing about forums as compared to mailing
> lists(although I'm not advocating *replacing* mailing lists in any
> way) is it dramatically increases the *Signal To Noise Ratio*.  Some
> people just don't want to read every damn conversation remotely
> related to openmoko.  They want to ask their specific question, and be
That's why they can pick and look at the threads they are interested
with their MUA, or did I get something wrong.

Btw, I can look at the mails with my laptop, and I can easily look at
them with my mobile, as both share an IMAP folder. I can access it with
a webbrowser by using the webmail interface. And all use the same data,
via IMAP. All the superfluous interaction needed to work with a webbased
forum make it not really feasible to use my mobile to catch up on the
community while sitting in a train. (And my E61 has one of the best
mobile browsers currently available, but it still is a pain to scroll
around).

> notified when they get a reply.  Or they can search for their
> particular issue, find some existing thread, and subscribe to that
> one.  This is what makes forums great.

Well, my mail client on the E61 and my thunderbird on the laptop have
really nice search boxes. And even funnier, they work the same way on
the openmoko mailing lists and on the Python tutor mailing list. Now the
55 points question: Can you tell me if the search functionality for the
Django mailing list works the same as the one for the Python mailing list?

Other fine things about mail: Identity management (although my E61 does
not support gpg :(, so it's not perfect; Hint: How do you know that MrX
at Forum X is the same person that [EMAIL PROTECTED] is? You don't.). Client
better suited to text communication (e.g. spell checking, etc.), while
many forums have to live with a  tag. And all have to live
with that when Javascript is turned off, which is currently the
recommendation for any site that displays user contributed text. (you
never can be sure that the site implements the HTML filtering correctly,
can you?)

Andreas
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Well, the point is that mail clients are tuned for text communication.
Webbrowsers are tuned to present a page or application downloaded from a
server.

Andreas

Daniel Robinson wrote:
> The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you
> would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different
> forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this
> community to address.
> 
> To state, axiomatically,  that mailing lists are more efficient is to
> attempt proof by assertion.
> 
> The goal is communication, not rightness.  How is communication best served?
> 
> --Dan
> 
> On 7/24/07, *Andreas Kostyrka* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> 
> No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time
> email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the "http
> protocol". If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) )
> 
> And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite
> well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list
> management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same
> behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these
> in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less
> depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists,
> because they use a standard interface.
> 
> Navigating 20 different "forums", is not feasible:
> 
> -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already
> using to read messages.
> 
> -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login
> (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2
> weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest
> me, ...
> 
> -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client.
> 
> You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based
> cooking community. Notice: "relative newcomer" (less than a decade
> Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed).
> 
> Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on
> newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured
> in units like "transaction" per "time unit". And I can clearly "process"
> (or decide not to "process") more messages per hour in my mailer than
> with my browser)
> 
> Andreas
> 
> Daniel Robinson wrote:
>> What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than
> theirs
>> is not worthy of consideration?
> 
>> I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email
> because
>> it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and
> forth
>> about this issue.
> 
>> Don't build your house on ice?  This is typical of the dismissiveness
>> with which people have responded about this issue.  The straw man
> being
>> used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as
>> building one's house on ice, is not valid.  It smacks of
> sanctimony and
>> that should be avoided.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>> wrote:
> 
>> > Quite frankly I am completely, totally,
>> > overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the
> forums.  Quite a few
>> > people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and
> how they
>> were
>> > *very* reluctant (like myself) to join.
> 
>> Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly.
>> That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it
> melts in
>> the spring and your house will fall in.   Don't build your
> house on
>> ice.
> 
>> As for forums, they are very nice for casual use.   They are
> terrible
>> for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively.   The
> nice
>> thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in
> your
>> inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as
> you choose.
>> And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it.
> 
>> Forums aren't bad - they're just different.   I think it would
> be great
>> if the casual traffic migrated to a forum.
> 
> 
> 
>> ___
>> OpenMoko 

Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Andreas Kostyrka]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time
 email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the "http
protocol". If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) )

And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite
well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list
management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same
behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these
in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less
depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists,
because they use a standard interface.

Navigating 20 different "forums", is not feasible:

- -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already
using to read messages.

- -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login
(depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2
weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me, ...

- -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client.

You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based
cooking community. Notice: "relative newcomer" (less than a decade
Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed).

Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on
newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured
in units like "transaction" per "time unit". And I can clearly "process"
(or decide not to "process") more messages per hour in my mailer than
with my browser)

Andreas

Daniel Robinson wrote:
> What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than theirs
> is not worthy of consideration?
> 
> I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email because
> it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and forth
> about this issue.
> 
> Don't build your house on ice?  This is typical of the dismissiveness
> with which people have responded about this issue.  The straw man being
> used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as
> building one's house on ice, is not valid.  It smacks of sanctimony and
> that should be avoided.
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> 
> > Quite frankly I am completely, totally,
> > overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums.  Quite a few
> > people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how they
> were
> > *very* reluctant (like myself) to join.
> 
> Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly.
> That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it melts in
> the spring and your house will fall in.   Don't build your house on
> ice.
> 
> As for forums, they are very nice for casual use.   They are terrible
> for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively.   The nice
> thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in your
> inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you choose.
> And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it.
> 
> Forums aren't bad - they're just different.   I think it would be great
> if the casual traffic migrated to a forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> OpenMoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org 
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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AW: 3G SIMs?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

Well, in most cases yes, as all 3G SIMs (USIM) I've seen have been valid GSM 
SIMs. i'd expect that to be some requirement even :)

OTOH there are carriers that are UMTS only (they don't have a GSM network), 
e.g. 3 in Austria.

Andreas

-- Ursprüngl. Mitteil. --
Betreff:3G SIMs?
Von:Marco Barreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Datum:  14.07.2007 21:30

I have a question about SIM cards.  If I have a 3G phone with its 3G
SIM, will I be able to put that SIM in the Neo?  My carrier is AT&T in
the US.

I think the answer is yes, because AT&T is having their old Cingular
customers upgrade to new 3G SIMs to put in their phones even if
they're 2G GSM phones (the 3G SIMs are supposed to be better at
choosing between Cingular and AT&T towers).  Can anyone confirm that
it'll work with the Neo?

Thanks,
Marco


-- 
"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a
really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would
actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them
again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should,
because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it
happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that
happened in politics or religion."
- Carl Sagan, astronomer and writer (1934-1996)

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AW: [UK] Import Duty

[Andreas Kostyrka]

Not sure what the VAT rate in the UK is, but yes if the Neo gets shipped from 
outside the EU, then you'll have to pay import VAT. And I would expect no 
import duties as such, as mobiles, IT stuff have a rate of 0% in Germany, thus 
in all EU countries.

Andreas

-- Ursprüngl. Mitteil. --
Betreff:[UK] Import Duty
Von:Andy Loughran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Datum:  13.07.2007 15:39

Guys,
I've just been on the HMRC website 
(http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageTravel_ShowContent&id=HMCE_PROD_009989&propertyType=document)
and have found the following information:

ITEM  |Excise Duty|Standard Duty|VAT Rate|

Mobile phones | Free  | Free| Standard Rate |

Does this mean that for a neo1973 Base ~184GBP on delivery I'll have to pay 
another 32.20GBP?

Regards,


Andy Loughran
www.zrmt.com
m: 07921076319



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AW: unbundling of phone services

[Andreas Kostyrka]

Well unbundling of the "last mile" certainly helps getting a competition going 
in DSL lines.

OTOH, it's still unclear what produces a competitive mobile market. Comparing 
Austria with Germany, Austria traditionally had better deals than Germany, 
despite lacking virtual operators for a long time. The differences are that 
stricking, that I've used my Austrian SIM card for over a year in roaming till 
I found a calling plan that makes at least so sense for me.

OTOH, not everything is clear cut, e.g. Austrian operators still do not have a 
100% real UMTS flat rate, while such data plans are available in Germany for 
some years now.

Hard to understand what drives competition in mobile markets :(

Andreas  
-- Ursprüngl. Mitteil. --
Betreff:unbundling of phone services
Von:"Robin Paulson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Datum:  12.06.2007 21:27

sorry for the partly off-topic, slightly rambling post, but i feel
this has partial relevance to openmoko

one of the hot topics where i live (NZ), is LLU, unbundling of
monopoly-controlled internet connections to the home/business, to
allow any other companies to have access to the network at a fair
price. this is seen by many as the holy grail of open internet access,
spurring innovation and driving down prices. a number of countries
where one company/entity has monopoly control of the lines have taken,
or are about to take, this route.

there has been lots of talk around the iphone/openmoko about what
could potentially be done in the way of innovative use of mobile phone
networks, but as the networks are locked down and controlled by their
operators, there is very little considering how old/how pervasive the
technologies are.

so my question is:
is there a similar movement anywhere for the equivalent of LLU for
mobile phone networks? i.e. allowing other operators to use networks
of vodafone/state-owned telco/sprint/whoever at reasonable price? most
countries don't have monopolies providing mobile services (even nz has
2 providers), but they still act as though they are monoplies,
providing (in my experience) vastly overpriced, very limited services

at the moment, the innovative things that could potentially be done
are restricted to using wi-fi connections, but wi-fi is not anywhere
near as pervasive as gsm/cdma coverage

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Re: information efficient text enty using dasher

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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And it's completely not relevant, as the Neo needs an input method that
works for local apps ;)

Andreas

Ted Gilchrist wrote:
> There's always the multipress key input method:
> 
> http://www.robocal.com/prod/robocal/robodicto.php
> 
> It's low-tech, and works on all phones, since the logic is in the
> server. I admit it's a bit tedious, but, ...
> 
> Ted Gilchrist
> 
> On 5/31/07, *Thomas Gstädtner* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> 
> Thank you for this post chris, nice to know, that dasher was running
> on a so old and slow device already.
> I'm see the things like you do: Touchscreen means you always have to
> stare at the device for making inputs.
> Like I said - I had a nokia 7710 before and it was nearby impossible
> to use it blind. Even if you had a fullscreen T9-keyboad with huge
> keys you had to check the display, because you cannot feel which
> "key" you are pressing.
> I also like the "driving a car" comparison :)
> 
> 2007/5/30, Chris Ball < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm one of the Dasher developers, and am also interested in
> hacking on
> OpenMoko.  So, getting Dasher going is fairly likely.
> 
>> This pretty much means that you have to stare at the
> display all
>> the time when inputting text.
> 
> Yes, this is the main difference between Dasher and
> T9.  However, the
> comments about needing a lot of screen resolution or CPU aren't
> so true
> -- we did Dasher on the iPaq seven years ago at full-speed and
> using
> 150x150 resolution, and it works great.  The reason we get away with
> not so much resolution is that you're only really ever being
> asked to
> choose between five or so probable letters at each turn, and it
> doesn't
> take much screen space to show those, and you can predict
> whereabouts
> you're headed by knowing the alphabetic order of which character
> comes
> next.
> 
>> Sure - in theory, dasher may approach arithmetic coding in
> terms of
>> information input.
> 
> (I'm not sure what you mean by "approach" -- Dasher *is* an
> arithmetic
> coder, and matches the information-theoretic efficiency of one in
> terms of bits/input to characters/output.)
> 
>> But unless you can do the coding in your head, you've got
> to stare
>> at the screen, making it less useful for environments where
> you've
>> got vibration, sunlight, walking down the street, or less
> likely
>> for a phone, if you're blind.
> 
> Yes, but the Neo doesn't have a keyboard, and doesn't have keys
> for T9
> that you can use without looking at the screen, so I don't think
> this
> is a useful criticism.  Dasher's very tolerant of vibration and
> mistakes,
> unlike T9 on a touchscreen -- it's much like driving a car, in
> that if
> you oversteer or understeer you just correct yourself later, because
> it's all about navigation and where you end up.  We can type
> easily over
> 20wpm on the iPaq with a touchscreen and stylus.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Chris.
> --
> Chris Ball   <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> One Laptop per Child
> 
> 
> 
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Re: GPS+sms apps

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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10-15c/SMS => that's about 60-90c per KB. Or 600-900$ per MB. Don't
think that GPRS is THAT expensive even in Canada.

Andreas

Crane, Matthew wrote:
> Ok, yea, they aren't often free, but they are often free to send even
> with the basic plans.  In the case of an application where it's sending
> to a central server and notifications go out much more rarely, then free
> to send is preferable.  I think the basic plans often charge 10-15c.
> For reference, Canadian $ getting closet to parity with USD lately.
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mikko J
> Rauhala
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:56 AM
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: RE: GPS+sms apps
> 
> On ti, 2007-05-29 at 09:15 -0400, Crane, Matthew wrote:
>> I guess SMS is generally more accessable and tends to be a lot
> cheaper,
>> often free, in Toronto and most of Canada.
> 
> I didn't know SMS are often free; here they cost a bundle, though a bit
> less if you take a bulk deal in your monthly fees. OTOH, here we have
> quite affordable no-limit GPRS(/EDGE/UMTS).
> 
> Clearly it would be good for a locator service to be able to communicate
> via both methods, depending on what kind of a mobile plan the user has.
> 
> As for availability, for a GPRS-preferred user of such a service you
> could pretty much assume that they are connected whenever the phone is
> on and has coverage, so not that different from SMS...
> 
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Re: GPS+sms apps

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Well, it's a general problem. Depending upon your phone plan, using SMS
might make sense or not. If SMS are free, that's nice, although I doubt
you'll manage to run a ppp session with mtu 150 over it :-P

Generically speaking, SMS are certainly more complicated to deal with:
GPRS is simple TCP/IP. SMS are special modem commands to the GSM module.
  GPRS means that basically any server connected to the Internet can
probably communicate with the phone. SMS means the server needs either
some special Internet service to send and receive!!! SMS, or a not
exactly free-of-costs GSM module.

In practice you would need completly free and unlimited SMS so that it
makes somehow sense. Even 1ct per SMS ruins the economy, => US$/CDN$/EUR
 70 per MB (depending if the cent was US/CDN/EUR *g*), combined with an
extremly low bandwidth (there is a limit how many SMS you can
send/receive per minute with a GSM module).

> I guess SMS is generally more accessable and tends to be a lot cheaper,

It depends. E.g. my German calling plan includes an UMTS flatrate, but
SMS are 30ct per piece. At least with UMTS + Opera on the phone the
sms.at website (that allows me to send cheap/free SMS) is usuable well
enough :)

My Austrian calling plan has 250MB UMTS, GPRS flatrate (basically UMTS
with a speed limit after the included MB), and 1000 SMS included. That
makes sending data via GPRS the safer option, cost wise.

> often free, in Toronto and most of Canada.  Phones could transmit
> position continuously to a central server, or some centralized
> mechanisim, and I'm thinking it would be much easier for a centralized
> server program to notify phones reliably with SMS, rather then depend on
> a data connection.  

SMS are not reliable. OTOH, you can get a send report, although these
often cost extra :(

Andreas

> 
> Basically by using SMS it would be a more accesable and reliable
> application that could be run continously by the participants.  Tie it
> into a social networking site maybe too.
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Dean Collins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 5:16 PM
> To: Crane, Matthew; OpenMoko
> Subject: RE: GPS+sms apps
> 
> Why would you need SMS - if you are running a data plan already to track
> cell tower and relative position to other Neo users then you may as well
> make it a self contained application.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dean Collins
> Cognation Pty Ltd
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Crane, Matthew
>> Sent: Monday, 28 May 2007 4:57 PM
>> To: OpenMoko
>> Subject: GPS+sms apps
>>
>>
>> Is there any existing application which combine sms messaging and GPS?
>> It would be pretty cool to get automated alerts whenever a particular
>> person is nearby, through a central machine (phone, desktop).  Or to
> use
>> some sort of automated homing application, where two people are able
> to
>> lock to each other and the phone guides them, notifying the other
> device
>> when the route or position has changed.
>>
>> Matt
>>
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Re: GPS+sms apps

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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You don't need GPS for that. It's a quite simple Python script (without
GUI certainly less than 10 lines) for PyS60 (Symbian S60), that checks
the GSM/UMTS cell info, and sends a SMS to your wife if you enter a
specific cell ("I'll be home in 15 minutes" or "I'm near to the
supermarket, should I pick up anything?" come to mind).

*g* Andreas

Crane, Matthew wrote:
> Is there any existing application which combine sms messaging and GPS?
> It would be pretty cool to get automated alerts whenever a particular
> person is nearby, through a central machine (phone, desktop).  Or to use
> some sort of automated homing application, where two people are able to
> lock to each other and the phone guides them, notifying the other device
> when the route or position has changed.
> 
> Matt
> 
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AW: release date

[Andreas Kostyrka]

i think your problem will be more the crude state of the software at the moment.

It's clearly in the "I knew and I knowingly choose for myself" phase. e.g. i 
would take one because it can dial voice calls, but most people expect a 
different level of sophistication.

Andreas

-- Ursprüngl. Mitteil. --
Betreff:release date
Von:Lv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Datum:  21.05.2007 06:05

What is the latest release date for the FIC NEO 1973, and where will I 
be able to buy it?
I am holding off on company cellphone purchases until I see what the neo 
can do as my company is Unix only which makes it very attractive.
If it will take till next year it will be lights out and I will buy 
something else.

It better be soon, warts and all.

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Re: GPRS while ringing?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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It's not as bad. It's not "modern" phones that can do, it's a
disappearing small number of phones, most new phones are class B.

Real class A phones are expensive, as they need two seperate radios :(

Andreas

Mikko Rauhala wrote:
> ma, 2007-05-07 kello 11:53 +0400, Nikita Melnikov kirjoitti:
>> Not really, as far as i _heard_. I got told that u can accept incoming
>> calls not dropping gprs connection on modern phones. Didn't test it
>> myself, tho, because i own some really oldschool Ericsson phone ;) 
> 
> That's spesified as GPRS class A, and I suppose some phones have it. Neo
> uses a class B GSM/GPRS chip (according to Sean's vague recollection at
> a seminar ;), which will have to suspend GPRS for voice/SMS, though.
> 
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Re: Input Method - Missing Buttongrip

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Hi "funny spamgourment user"!

The only problem with this is, that the Neo cannot deliver multiple
contacts to the display. AFAIK, if you put 2 fingers to the display, it
reports the weighted middle point of these to the software.

Andreas
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Re: Size and weight considerations for future Openmoko devices

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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You type my thoughts. Nice looking device, but it's just a Windows
mobile. Not really useful.

Andreas

Steven ** wrote:
> Quoth your link:
> "All in all, the P3300 features a typical display for a Windows
> Mobile-powered communicator, which doesn't stand out against the
> background of its rivals."
> 
> It's just another Windows PDA/phone.  Boring.
> 
> 
> -Steven
> 
> On 5/2/07, Marcin Juszkiewicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Dnia środa, 2 maja 2007, Andreas Kostyrka napisał:
>>
>> > It's a smartphone, so let's compare it to smartphones:
>>
>> > Nokia 9500:   56.9mm x 148.1mm x 23.9mm 229.9g
>> > T-mobile MDA compact III: 58.0mm x 108.0mm x 17.0mm 127.0g
>> > T-mobile Vario II:58.0mm x 113.0mm x 22.0mm 160.0g
>> > Nokia E61 69.7mm x 117.0mm x 14.0mm 144.0g
>>
>> > Sorry, that doesn't look that bad to me. Actually, these are all
>> > devices without GPS, OTOH, they do have a better GSM/UMTS module.
>>
>> Then compare it to HTC Artemis:
>>
>> 108 x 58 x 16.3 mm, 127 g
>>
>> WiFi, BT 2.0, GPS, GSM, EDGE, FM Radio
>>
>> It has QVGA screen 2.8", cpu: omap850 200MHz, 64M ram, 128M flash.
>>
>> And it have nice controller ;)
>>
>> http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/htc-artemis-en.shtml
>>
>> -- 
>> JID: hrw-jabber.org
>> OpenEmbedded developer/consultant
>>
>>   Any smoothly functioning technology will have the appearance of magic.
>> -- Arthur C. Clarke
>>
>>
>>
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: Size and weight considerations for future Openmoko devices

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Sven Neuhaus wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> here's the size and weight of a few touchscreen mobile phones:
> 
>   Neo1973  iPhone   M600i   LG Prada
> length (mm)   120.7115  107 98.8
> width 62   61   57  54
> height18.5 11.6 15  12
> weight (g)184  135  112 85
> screen (inch) 2.8  3.5  2.6 3.0

It's a smartphone, so let's compare it to smartphones:
Nokia 9500:   56.9mm x 148.1mm x 23.9mm 229.9g
T-mobile MDA compact III: 58.0mm x 108.0mm x 17.0mm 127.0g
T-mobile Vario II:58.0mm x 113.0mm x 22.0mm 160.0g
Nokia E61 69.7mm x 117.0mm x 14.0mm 144.0g

Sorry, that doesn't look that bad to me. Actually, these are all devices
without GPS, OTOH, they do have a better GSM/UMTS module.

Btw, no matter how it's discussed, the iPhone is not a smartphone, it
misses the category defining extensibility. And when we are at the topic
of the iPhone. It's technically even more vaporware then Neo => it's
just announced, ...

Andreas
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Re: Size and weight considerations for future Openmoko devices

[Andreas Kostyrka]

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Ian Stirling wrote:
> Maciej Ligenza wrote:
>> Sven,
>>
>> On 5/2/07, Sven Neuhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> It's also the biggest. It weighs almost *twice* as much as the
>>> LG Prada, despite having a smaller screen! [..cut..]
>>> The iPhone has a *much bigger* screen than the Neo1973 and it's still
>>> smaller and a lot lighter.
>>
>> Please consider dpi comparison in which Neo is unbeatable winner.
> 
> Well - yes.
> But with antialiasing, at normal phone distances, telling between 140
> and 280 DPI isn't trivial, with normal phone-sized text.
> 
> Yes, it makes the text a tiny bit sharper, and if you bring it to 20cm
> from the eye, and have good eyes, you can read 80*25 text on it, but...
> If you could knock off 50g by going to 240*320, I suspect I would.

Not really, 50g really are not relevant.

Andreas
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Re: Push mail

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Christian Fischer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070424 23:24]:
> 
> > Hi!
> >
> > Just wondering, Nokia "Intellisync Wireless Email" is some kind of
> > SyncML based mail push solution, right?
> >   
> quote http://europe.nokia.com/A4164024
> Nokia Intellisync Wireless Email is a full-featured wireless email
> platform that allows users to easily and rapidly access their email,
> calendar, contacts, notes and task lists on almost any mobile phone they
> choose. Users can download attachments, respond to meeting requests and
> manage subfolders while on the road. Virtually everything—including
> read/unread/sent emails, drafts, deletions and attachments—is fully
> synchronized with the email server, whether Exchange, Domino, Groupwise
> IMAP, POP3 or XML.

That's marketing speak. Information content around zero. Beside,
already known by me. :(

Andreas

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Push mail

[Andreas Kostyrka]

Hi!

Just wondering, Nokia "Intellisync Wireless Email" is some kind of
SyncML based mail push solution, right?

What kind of push mail will the Neo support?

Andreas
  
  

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Re: Blacklist/whitelists

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Christ van Willegen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070407 16:24]:
> Hi,
> 
> On 4/6/07, Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Well, there is only one way on standard GSM modules to disable SMS
> >delivery to the phone: When the SIM card SMS slots are filled up. All
> >phones/modules I've programmed always receive SMS via these storage
> >slots on the SIM. So I guess filling up these slots would disable SMS
> >receiving?
> If that happens, my phone tells me that the SMS memory is full, and I
> need to delete SMS messages in order to receive the one it was told
> about... So, I guess the network _does_ tell the telephone that an SMS
> message is waiting. Perhaps this could be used to 'refuse' text
> messages?
Yes and no. You can refuse it this way (I suggested that above), but
you cannot selectivly refuse just some of the SMS.

Furthermore to make it worse, the Neo has a encapsulated GSM module.
Don't think we'll be able to change to much of the standard GSM
behaviour (btw, that's by design so, and the reason why we have a
standalone GSM module *g*).

Andreas

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Re: Blacklist/whitelists

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Knight Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070406 21:31]:
> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 10:31:47AM -0700, Tim Newsom wrote:
> > That seems weird... Even in email you can turn off read receipts... It 
> > seems like an invasion of sort (though a minor one) to not allow 
> > disabling of delivery reports for the receiving party.
> 
> There are two kinds of delivery reports, because I've specifically got
> them turned off in my phone, but my sister still gets them when she sends
> to me, so I think they're network-generated, and that means they will
> only work as far as the network can tell, so if transferring to a
> different network (She's on a different one than I am), she'll only know
> when they're sent to my network, not to me.  And I know my phone doesn't
> send them back, because she has received some when I was out of coverage.

Well, at least in Europe, delivery reports are generated when the SMS
is delivered, no matter what network the recipient is on. OTOH, I once
had a sick case of an SMS to an Aussie number, which was delivered
after a week, and I got the delivery report also when it was delivered.

> 
> > Does the sms message system work while the phone is in call mode? Does 
> > that require multiplex code also like the gprs while on a call does?
> > If it doesn't work while calling, you can always find out when someone 
> > is done talking on the phone / is available to talk (assuming they are 
> > at the phone) by sending an sms with delivery report first... Right?
> 
> It may depend on the phone, but on my current phone yes, SMS can be sent
> and received while I'm on a call. I've had that happen MANY times, and
> my phone isn't one of the ones that can GSM and GPRS at the same time.
I'd guess most if not all phones can do. The only thing that keeps
people from using that is that it's hard to type in a message while
talking.
> 
> Assuming that the receipts are sent from the phone, yes, there should be.
> However, if (as I suspect) they are generated by the network, there's
> nothing you can do about them, but they're not terribly accurate to begin
> with.

Well, there is only one way on standard GSM modules to disable SMS
delivery to the phone: When the SIM card SMS slots are filled up. All
phones/modules I've programmed always receive SMS via these storage
slots on the SIM. So I guess filling up these slots would disable SMS
receiving?

Andreas

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Re: Blacklist/whitelists

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Bradley Hook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070406 21:24]:
> SMS most likely uses a mechanism similar (or identical) to the ESMTP DSN
> model. See http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3461 for more info.
> 
> With cell phones, it seems that the destination storage medium for the
> message server is the phone itself. The phones probably don't get any
> headers on the message in advance of accepting the message, so there is
> probably no way to reject messages on a per-sender basis, at least not
> in a way that avoids being charged for message delivery. As long as Ma
Charged for message delivery?

Andreas

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Re: Blacklist/whitelists

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Tim Newsom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070406 18:05]:
> 
> On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 8:35, Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
> >You cannot block them. But you can make the phone completly ignore it.
> >OTOH, that's not the same thing because combined with a delivery
> >report, somebody else can see when you turn your phone on :(
> >
> >Andreas
> 
> Is it possible to turn delivery reports off?
Yes, but that's an option of the sending party, not the receiving one.

Andreas

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Re: Blacklist/whitelists

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Martin Raißle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070406 16:01]:
> On 4/6/07, Joe Shmoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  "Accept all texts"
> >  "Accept texts from my address book only"
> >  "Accept texts from the following numbers"
> >  "Block all texts"
> >  "Block texts from my address book only"
> >  "Block texts from the following numbers"
> 
> actually i'm not sure if you can block text messages ... maybe someone
> knows better .. .
You cannot block them. But you can make the phone completly ignore it.
OTOH, that's not the same thing because combined with a delivery
report, somebody else can see when you turn your phone on :(

Andreas

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Re: No stylus on V1 release?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Clare Johnstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070325 01:22]:
> Dear all,
> This frightens me in my role as mother, grandmother etc, i.e. a
> representative of the public to which you hope to sell this phone.
> Essentially any laser device powerful enough to be useful has no place in
Well, I take it on myself to play a representive of the public, guess
I have at least as much reason. 

In my role as dad (well, I'm not a grand dad yet :) ), a dad that just
gave her first mobile to his daughter, etc. on, and somebody who sold
medical lasers for some years, I'm quite certain, that by the usual
standards, I should be blind. Very blind. Guess the way regulators (or
TÜV engineers look at it), my brain is probably fried :)
Guess I'm a unruly kind, because I type this without a braille display.


Basically, a laser pointer, which is bound to be a very weak device,
is very far from dangerous. It might be able to hurt the eyes of some
persons, but I doubt it. It might be able to raise the temperature of
your eye by a degree. It might have negative effects on very small
children, but well, these could also choke and die on any pointer.
Guess we need to design a phone without small parts.

Basically, despite the offical rules governing use of lasers, most
people in the field don't take it that serious. 

Just to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR. This rant applies to red diode lasers,
in the 650nm wavelength range with powers <5mW (which are usually used
for pointers). There are enough lasers that one can use to hurt
himself. Just not the typical laser pointers.

> a home which may ever have children in it. (Even quite old ones).
Well, you'll be shocked, I've been raised in a home where lasers were
kept. *SHOCK* 
Another shocking thing, you know, some projectors used by people for
their home entertainment setups include laser pointers in the remote.
*SHOCK*

Andreas
> 
> clare
> 
> 
> On 2/16/07, Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >denis wrote:
> >> Ian Stirling schrieb:
> >>> Stefan Schmidt wrote:
> 
>  It has a stylus, but no place in the case to hide it.
> 
> >>>
> >>> My thoughts on this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back - a
> >>> modified case.
> 
> >Should we add that page to the hardware wish list?
> 
> and someone did, thus:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Laser_Pointer
> 
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Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 22:58]:
> Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
> >...plus probably a system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness 
> >information.
> 
> >This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones
> >more often would be able to tune it.
> >  
> First, I'm not a SMS user (I use email.), so you can take this comment for 
> whatever its worth.
> 
> This is just a very general statement, but I personally think that designing 
> features that will only work with other OpenMoko phones is a bad idea.  Yes, 
> there are some ideas that will 
> probably only work between similar/identical devices, but they are probably 
> going to be very specific and not receive as much overall development time.
> 
> My challenge is just to think bigger.  Think how this could be incorporated 
> to work with *any* phone.  Then you can have a much larger group of people to 
> brainstorm, test, and bugfix.  
> We have enough protocols and standards to support.  Creating yet another one 
> isn't really going to help that much.  Also, I don't know anyone else that is 
> planning on getting a 
> OpenMoko device, so its pretty pointless for me at this point.  I know you've 
> got to start somewhere, but starting out a battle fighting uphill isn't the 
> best of ideas.
> 
> Sorry if I completely missed the point.
No, I basically agree. The problem I wanted to address is the need
that some people will want to do Moko-specific stuff. For these, it
would be nice to have a way to discover with a relevant probability
that it's correct, if a given user is a Moko user. Actually, it's
harder, because you probably should have a token profile, because not
every moko on this planet will have the same features/apps :(

Andreas

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Re: Proposal: Personal Data Encryption (maybe SoC?)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 20:58]:
> Tim Newsom writes:
> >
> >On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 9:34, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> >> Tobias Gruetzmacher writes:
> >>
> >> Right -- these look like good approaches, but to a different problem.
> >
> >/please excuse my direct manner.. Its just how I write (smile)
> 
> Likewise -- it's hard to see somebody smile by email, and I never
> intend to offend.
> 
> >What do you mean by different problem? Maybe I don't fully
> >understand.
> 
> Near as I can tell, these approaches require you to partition up your
> maching into an unencrypted area and an encrypted jail -- maybe
> through a physically separate device, maybe through a separate
> partition, maybe through a file that's mounted as a filesystem.  I
> don't want that -- I want to be able to specify encryption on a
> file-by-file basis, in a manner that comes as close as possible to
> being generic across all applications without code changes to those
> applications.
> 
> At the moment, I'm wandering around the source code for __libc_read() and
> __libc_write() to see if there's a good way to hijack a program's
> read() and write() calls, so if they are to a file that's marked as
> encrypted the data can go through encrypt() on the way

Yes, you can in theory do that. E.g. use a LD_PRELOAD library.
BUT, here come the pitfalls:

a) you need to keep extreme exact file positions. Or use lseek on
every read/write to get your place in the file.

b) mmap.

c) from my experience, stdio.h, C++ streams and unistd.h read/write
reach a different site for the kernel syscall. That might have changed
or have been an artifact of LD_PRELOADing into the app.

So encryptfs sounds way more useful for that usage.

Andreas

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Re: Compressed SMS (and other text messages)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070321 01:40]:
> 'lo
> 
> Didn't appear in the wiki, so I figured I'd throw it out there first:
> compressed SMS for when a persistent TLS-encrypted and -compressed
> Jabber connection just isn't there (eg. if it would be too expensive in
> a particular locale), but you need to send "long" text messages. With
> SMS, every 140 bytes costs loads of money. (Yes, it's 140 bytes, people;
> 160 characters in 7-bit charsets.)
> 
> So. We can't very well send a compression dictionary along with each
> SMS. Instead, we'll start producing one upon sending the first SMS to
> another Moko user (might be necessary to mark Moko peers manually, or is
> there a way to identify them?). The recipient produces the same.

Bigger problem: Users that switch SIM cards. E.g. I tend to switch my
Austrian and German SIM cards, and the "roaming" SIM card lands in a
simple and trivial SonyEricsson mobile.

No way to know if a Moko user is still a Moko user. :(

So at least you would need an automatic expiration, plus probably a
system that would automatically upload/download moko-ness information.

E.g.

*) Provide a central server, where everyone can submit hashes + time
values. (Security aspect: How do we make sure that I cannot submit for
a different user? Sending SMS for verification might prove expensive
:( )

*) Now, everytime you've got sensible connectivity, iterate through
all of your contacts, and ask for the hash of the phone number, which
would give you the mokoness expiration timestamp.

This way all mokos could keep in touch, and people that switch phones
more often would be able to tune it.

Andreas

> 
> The next message between the two will be compressed with the compression
> dictionary previously generated. The new data will deterministically
> modify the compression dictionary on both ends. These are cyclically
> numbered and several previous versions will be stored in case the
> parties get out of sync.
> 
> Optional: Allow compression dictionary to be generated from a set of
> messages, and be transferred to another phone as a baseline (presumably
> when better connectivity is available). Or even as a final frozen
> dictionary, which would avoid possible races and other sync problems.
> 
> Aside: Encrypt SMSs, either with a shared secret or a one-time pad
> similarly pre-copied between phones.
> 
> That's it for tonight. Probably not very essential, but it's a thought.
> 
> -- 
> Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
> Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>
> 
> 
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Re: Device support / life (was: community issues)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Elrond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070314 21:14]:
>c) I really hope against and can't see the orphaning of
>   "older hardware".

One thing that we should not forget, OpenMoko is a platform, that will
support any number of phones in the future, so supporting different
hardware revisions of the Neo should be a good trial for that.

Andreas

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Re: Crossroads

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070314 19:02]:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 12:10:22PM -0400, Mike wrote:
> 
> > I had thought this would be like other third party electronics- like
> > third party phone chargers for example- which do specify (and guarantee)
> > what they'll work with. I guess not.
> 
> I don't understand what is wrong about selling a device that has 
> 
> 1) FCC approval
> 2) GSM certification
> 
> The whole point about having norms and standards is that you do _not_
> have to talk to each and every vendor and/or operator, but that everyone
> just complies with those starndards, have stringend certification
> procedures, and ensure inter-vendor and cross-operator interoperability.

Well, US carriers joined the GSM game late, and they seem to keep the
endusers even more ignorant then their collegues in Europe ;)

Andreas

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Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists :( (

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070314 16:37]:
> On Wednesday 14 March 2007 16:07:25 Jonathon Suggs wrote:
> > > Andreas
> > The wap APN does provide "generic" internet access.  But the difference
> > is that is uses a NAT'ed private IP address.  Therefore you probably
> > can't use it with a VPN (you would need PDA Connect if that is a
> > requirement for you).  But for basic browsing, it will work just fine.
> 
> It's perhaps offtopic, but I run Cisco based VPN (using Linux vpnc) over my 
> WRT54G NAT all the time with no issues whatsoever so NAT doesn't necessarily 
> preclude you from using VPN.
Correctly, but some VPN protocols are usually not allowed in usual
nat router setups.

Andreas

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Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists :( (

[Andreas Kostyrka]

That suggests that the isp apn does not use nat. If so that's cool. OTOH all 
(admittingly European carriers) do nat for internet access. OTOH the wap apns 
provide a walled garden that include a wap proxy that allows surfing http sites.

Despite how many people associate internet==IE, having a proxy that allows http 
access, massaging the content when accessed is not "normal" Internet access.

OTOH, one can build a tunnel through http, but it's a pita. add gprs speeds, 
plus the wap proxy and it gets a PITA.

Andreas

_ Ursprüngliche Mitteilung _
Betreff:Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists 
:( (
Autor:  "Jonathon Suggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Datum:  14. März 2007 16:7:25

Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
> well the wap apn would make me suspicious if you'll get normal internet 
> connectivity with it.
>
> But yes if it's only wap, and if the final version will include a wap 
> browser, then yes, the Neo will work with the plan. OTOH you might something 
> different than what you expect from it.
>
> Andreas
>   
The wap APN does provide "generic" internet access.  But the difference 
is that is uses a NAT'ed private IP address.  Therefore you probably 
can't use it with a VPN (you would need PDA Connect if that is a 
requirement for you).  But for basic browsing, it will work just fine.

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Re: I know why I dislike anonymous participants on mailinglists :( (

[Andreas Kostyrka]

well the wap apn would make me suspicious if you'll get normal internet 
connectivity with it.

But yes if it's only wap, and if the final version will include a wap browser, 
then yes, the Neo will work with the plan. OTOH you might something different 
than what you expect from it.

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Re: The 911 button? how is it set up?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Charles McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070311 10:27]:
> On Sunday 11 March 2007 06:31, Clare Johnstone wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > Just looking at the  information on the Wiki about the hardware,
> > I got curious about the so-called 911 button. I am supposing it is for
> > emergency calls, but is my country (Australia) alone in not using
> > that number for emergencies?
> > Looking up what we do use, I found:
> >
> > http://www.telstra.com.au/mobile/life/community/emergency.htm#
> > 
> > You can still attempt a normal '000'emergency call from a GSM mobile
> > but if you do not have reception, you can dial '112' and your call
> > will be carried by any available GSM network.
> > 
> As far as I know, 112 is the international standard for mobiles : 911,999,000
I'd assume that 112 will work on US GSM networks too.
Before any one asks, 112 is special on most phones => one can dial
these usually without a SIM card inserted, or even funnier, one can
dial 112 even with the keyboard locked.

Andreas

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070306 23:17]:
> On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 12:33 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that
> > >will be available this month will only be a developers board, without
> > >a phone casing => unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day
> > >operations, right?
> > 
> > My understanding is that the $350 "standard kit" will be a real live
> > phone, though a bit rough around the edges. 
> 
> I should add _very_ rough around the edges ;-) We've just had too many
> hardware delays...
Ok, when will these $350 kits (== real phones with bleedy-edge
software) be available? And when these $200 kits? (Did I get it right,
it's all kind of stuff but basically a phone in a box?)

Andreas

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Marcin Juszkiewicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070305 07:35]:
> Dnia niedziela, 4 marca 2007, Joe Pfeiffer napisał:
> > Andreas Kostyrka writes:
> 
> > >Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that
> > >will be available this month will only be a developers board, without
> > >a phone casing => unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day
> > >operations, right?
> 
> > My understanding is that the $350 "standard kit" will be a real live
> > phone, though a bit rough around the edges.  You seem to be describing
> > the $250 "hacker's lunchbox".
> 
> Hacker's lunchbox is EXTRA equipment (costs 200 USD) to normal package of 
> Neo1973 (costs 350 USD). 
> 
> So Hacker's lunchbox version is 550 USD in total. Thats how I understand 
> it and I think that this is how it looks.

Well, that doesn't seem to be the answer in this case, because the
$350 package won't be available before Summer, right?

Andreas

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Graham Auld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070304 20:10]:
> As I understand it Andreas, the hackers lunchbox is including the dev board
> connecting thru the JTAG interface of the phone. You would purchace your
> phone seperatly.
Yeah, but gadgets useable as phones (hardware-wise) won't be available
before Summer, right?

Andreas

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Re: coverage at linuxdevices.com

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070304 18:53]:
> Nice description of the technical information, with photos of the
> hacker's lunchbox and car kit.
> 
> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7653749655.html

Just wondering, but did I get that right, the Hackers version that
will be available this month will only be a developers board, without
a phone casing => unuseable as a mobile phone in day-to-day
operations, right?

Andreas

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Re: cingular data

[Andreas Kostyrka]

The problem that I see here is that they seem to offer the same
"technical" product (unlimited data access) at different price points.

Our first generation Neos won't blip on their radar, because they are
total slow (I don't think that you will be able to fetch more than
10GB a month, even if you would be receiving at full speed 24hours a
day).

But later, with EGPRS or UMTS, you might get into troubles if you
overuse, and their legal department tries to frame you as the bad guy.

a paranoid,

Andreas

* Matthew Naftzger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070228 15:06]:
>  � � �"Data Connect
>  �� � Access your e-mail, corporate intranet, and the Internet while on
>  �� � the go by wirelessly connecting your PDA to the
>  �� � Internet. Requires usage with a Cingular Wireless PDA. Service is
>  �� � not available at all times in all places. View Map and Coverage
>  �� � Limitations.� View all 4 Data Connect Cingular Plans"
> 
>You have to remember they're writing these for the general masses.� More
>than likely they're trying to people from thinking it will work with to
>$19.99 throw away phone.� And of course, they want to sell you their
>phone.
>I have the $20 a month plan, and use my Treo for dial up networking
>regularly.� Not had a problem yet.��
> 
> Matthew Naftzger
> 
> � �413 329 1252
> 
> www.worksofman.com
> 
>  "A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" � �-Albert 
> Einstein

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Re: t-mobile bans user's own apps

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Wolfgang S. Rupprecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070228 00:06]:
> 
> "Dean Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Yep saw that in Slashdot, bit of confusion are they cracking down on
> > existing data levels for cheaper data offerings (something called TZones
> > or similar) or if totally banning.
> >
> > Point is, vote with your feet and go to cingular or someone else.
> 
> I tried my best to understand the 8+ different Cingular data offerings
> and it seems at first glance that each of them either requires using a
> device bought from Cingular or approved by name (eg. the various
> "Blackberry" planes) 
> 
> 
> http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-plans/data-cell-phone-plans.jsp?_requestid=82997

Well, the Smartphone, Data and Laptop plans should work. OTOH, it's
basic stupidity, because they seem to sell the same product
"unlimited" internet access with different prices depending upon which
device you insert your SIM card into. So IANAL, but I guess you should
be ok to use the Smartphone plan, as the Neo is a smartphone ;)

The problem, why this is stupid, is the fact that many smartphones
allow sharing the internet access to a laptop via Bluetooth. They can
disable this on their own "enhanced" brand phones, but buying the same
phone from the manufacturer will include this subversive features.
(btw, that makes sometimes sense, because my phone has better
reception than my UMTS data card.)

GPRS/UMTS offers basically one way to differate data offerings, by
offering different APNs (access point names). E.g. my phone offers
basically three APNs (Blackberry, T-Mobile MMS, Internet). Blackberry
will probably connect you to a special network garden, that allows for
pushing email. MMS allows sending/receiving MMS. And internet is
basically a NAT-ed internet access.

Now offering the same network destination (Internet) with different
prices attached depending upon the device used is a creative way for
the legal department, but it's hard to implement network-wise. The
only thing would be that Cingular only allows connecting via
pre-authenticated EMEI-identified phones. Haven't heard yet that they
do this to their customers.

The alternate way would be to log the EMEI, decode (if that's at all
possible) what device it is, and later sue your customer. (If that's
their strategy, I guess that they had help from some SCO managers on
the dole ;) )

Andreas

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Re: t-mobile bans user's own apps

[Andreas Kostyrka]

Well, as stupid that sounds, without signing a contract, you won't get
a SIM from them. And I do know, that there are really stupid carriers
(e.g. drei.at) that insist on the 24-months contract binding time,
even if you don't take the subsidy. Guess the US carriers are even
more evil, because they in fact have no regulation nor competition to
reign them in.

(btw, using a prepaid card involves legally speaking a contract too,
it's just that the contract is not signed, only executed by doing.
Plus prepaid data costs are not very attractive.)

Andreas


* Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070228 15:05]:
> Why would you sign a contract?  My understanding was that the only
> benefit to a contract was a subsidized phone.  If you're using the
> Neo1973, you're not going to need that crippled, subsidized phone.
> Then, since you're not bound by a ridiculous contract, you could
> switch to another provider if they tried to restrict your data usage.
> 
> -Steven
> 
> On 2/27/07, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >The part that scares me about the "Data Connect" is the wording at the
> >top-level data page that includes the phrase "Requires usage with a
> >Cingular Wireless PDA."
> >
> >
> > http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-plans/data-cell-phone-plans.jsp?_requestid=82997&_requestid=104169
> >
> > "Data Connect
> >
> > Access your e-mail, corporate intranet, and the Internet while on
> > the go by wirelessly connecting your PDA to the
> > Internet. Requires usage with a Cingular Wireless PDA. Service is
> > not available at all times in all places. View Map and Coverage
> > Limitations.  View all 4 Data Connect Cingular Plans"
> >
> >I'm a bit worried that they will accept the 2-contract only to turn
> >around after a few weeks and point out that this plan only allows me
> >to use a Cingular PDA.
> >
> >The "Smartphone Connect" only talks about "browsing the internet".
> >That has the potential liability that they only allow a proxied
> >port-80/tcp connection and nothing else.
> >
> >Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I recall the same thing
> >happened with cable internet service.  "Running a server" initially
> >just meant running a server that was serving lots of people.  Before
> >the year was over it came to mean running your own sendmail which only
> >accepted mail for yourself.
> >
> >-wolfgang
> >
> >
> >Steven ** writes:
> >> Seems like you'd want either the "Data Connect" plan
> >> (http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-service//cell-phone-plans/data-connect-plans.jsp)
> >> or the "Smartphone Connect" plan
> >> (http://www.cingular.com/cell-phone-service//cell-phone-plans/smartphone-connect-plans.jsp).
> >> I'd go with the "Smartphone Connect" unlimited for $20.
> >--
> >Wolfgang S. Rupprecht  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/
> >   sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ISN: 6001*308
> >
> 
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Re: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free phones.)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

when we are at it, limiting calls to only certain numbers is a
standard GSM feature, it's just seldom used, as most people just
forget their PIN2 ;)

Andreas

* Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070227 10:41]:
> Took 4 minutes of googling to find both Cingular and Verizon have kids
> phones and restricted access plans.
> 
> Stop your bitching and go save the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cingular's FireFly phone has buttons for preprogrammed phone numbers for
> Mom and Dad, along with a button for 911 emergencies. Up to 20
> additional numbers can also be programmed into the phone. Verizon's Migo
> phone from LG also offers a dedicated emergency button, along with four
> buttons that parents can program.
> 
> Even though the big carriers' services and phones don't match the
> functionality of newcomer Disney Mobile, they still may have an edge
> over Disney. For one, most parents who'd even consider buying a cell
> phone for their kids are already customers of one of the big cell phone
> companies. It might be easier and more cost-effective for them to wait
> for new features to be added to their current provider's packages.
> 
> 
> Limits on kids 
> 
> Parents can designate the times when a kid can call particular numbers
> or play games. With TicTalk, Mom and Dad can also limit the number of
> minutes for calls to certain numbers - say to a best friend. 
> 
> As with Firefly, the phone operates on the GSM cellular network. For
> some reason, the unit I had never properly updated the time. TicTalk
> costs $99, plus a $10 activation fee. An hour of prepaid talk is $15.
> The phone is available online now and in stores by year's end.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dean Collins
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Monday, 26 February 2007 6:27 PM
> > To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> > Subject: RE: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free
> phones.)
> > 
> > Dean...
> > 
> > Its been a while since I looked, but I do stand corrected. The Disney
> plan
> > indeed launched last June.
> > 
> > The Disney plan is not, however prepaid, and worse, it is Disney, the
> folks
> > who bought and paid for our Sonny Bono Copyright Tem Extension Act.
> > 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright_Term_Extension_Act
> > 
> > Which, of course, puts them on my "List".
> > 
> > Thanks again.
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > 
> > Original Message:
> > -
> > From: Dean Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:35:21 -0500
> > To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> > Subject: RE: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free
> > phones.)
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > > As a parent, one of my great angers with the cellular industry is
> that
> > > NO-ONE has offered a pre-paid plan that limits the child's monthly
> use
> > of
> > > the air-time resource by cutting it off once the minute limit is
> > exceeded
> > > for the month.  Calls FROM and TO the parent account would still go
> > through
> > > and be billed to the parent account.
> > 
> > 
> > Alan,
> > Totally incorrect, this was one of the main themes behind the Disney
> > MVNO and I also think Verizon or cingular have this option as well (I
> > know I saw a tv ad for one of them a few months ago but cant remember
> > which one)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Dean Collins
> > Cognation Pty Ltd
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > +1-212-203-4357 Ph
> > +1-917-207-3420 Mb
> > +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
> > 
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Monday, 26 February 2007 2:27 PM
> > > To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > Subject: RE: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free
> > phones.)
> > >
> > > Sam...
> > >
> > > Thanks for posting that link.  A great write up on the
> "Fundamentally
> > > Immoral" business practices in the cellullar communications industry
> > today.
> > >
> > > What I expect from the "Operators" or "Carriers" (depending on which
> > oceans
> > > are nearby) is that they cease and desist using obfuscation and
> > bundling to
> > > hide the true cost of their services.  Ala-carte pricing that can be
> > > compared business to business.
> > >
> > > Another Mini-Rant of my own:
> > >
> > > Cell Plans That Help Parents Teach Responsibility
> > >
> > > As a parent, one of my great angers with the cellular industry is
> that
> > > NO-ONE has offered a pre-paid plan that limits the child's monthly
> use
> > of
> > > the air-time resource by cutting it off once the minute limit is
> > exceeded
> > > for the month.  Calls FROM and TO the parent account would still go
> > through
> > > and be billed to the parent account.
> > >
> > > But the cell industry in not interested in what is best for Society
> as
> > a
> > > whole, namely  young people who can demonstrate the ability to
> > co

Re: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free phones.)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Sam Kome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070226 21:20]:
> > companies involved, the group that has the most to gain from OpenMoko
> > are the endusers. Worse the powerusers, which are a bad deal for the
> > networks anyway. I do compare plans, and I tend to use what I buy.)
> 
> 
> I agree that users will benefit. I don't think most of them know it.
> But to your point - there's a big upside for carriers.

The problem is manyfold:

a) corporate view points can be quite twisted for no reason.
b) carriers in many countries overpaid for the 3G licenses, and are
now in the bad situation that they are hardpressed to show any profits.
c) 3G means fast data connection, but only for a small number of users
=> these means that the carriers are in the bad situation of cable
internet providers, it's just worse for them. ;)

Andreas

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Re: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free phones.)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Sam Kome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070226 19:41]:
> When my mother/brother/friend in the US wants to buy a phone, they are
> very likely to go to one or two cell phone outlet stores, RTFMA, and see
> a plethora of plans with minutes and calling circles and
> free-after-x-o'clock.  They will not be able to reasonably compare these
> to each other without performing sophisticated systems analysis on the
> fly.  They will and do sign up for 2 year contracts _and/or_ locked
> devices.

Stupid users^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Husers that don't care, or don't
compare plans are an universal problem. Trust me, comparing calling
plans in Europe is not less complicated than in the US. 

> 
> This by the way, makes my job (creating mobile content) more difficult,
> so I have both the philosphical and selfish professional incentives to
> try to both educate the general public and solve the core problem as I
> see it, which is a sea of proprietary devices that have lousy software
> and worse user interfaces.
> 
> How'd I do? Still childish boring bullshit?  

Well, it's not exactly a stellar observation, and yes, the OpenMoko
platform has some promise, if it succeeds, to change the realities in
the cellular industry. But it won't be fast, nor do I expect it to
happen without some severe backfighting. (Consider, not only there is
a known ecosystem that is to the (shortsighted) benefit of the
companies involved, the group that has the most to gain from OpenMoko
are the endusers. Worse the powerusers, which are a bad deal for the
networks anyway. I do compare plans, and I tend to use what I buy.)

Andreas

> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shawn
> Rutledge
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:51 PM
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: Locked phones (was Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free
> phones.)
> 
> SIMs are great - I don't like SIM-free phones like Verizon ones that
> require somebody at Verizon to switch the service to a different
> phone.  With GSM you just switch the SIM yourself.  Of course it would
> also be nice to be able to use different devices without having to
> physically switch the SIM (like use the GPRS connection in a laptop or
> PDA).  Anyway "SIM-free" is misleading as you are using it, because
> you are actually complaining about locked phones that will only work
> on one network.   And BTW it's not so hard to buy new unlocked phones
> on the net if you are willing to pay unsubsidized prices for them.
> 
> As for Jobs, I think he negotiated a lot of unique stuff that cannot
> typically be negotiated with a carrier.  It's too bad the phone still
> costs $500-600 even with a contract.  Makes me wonder what the real
> manufacturing cost is; is the hardware that super-duper or are they
> just wanting to have even better margins than they get on ipods?
> 
> On 2/26/07, Sam Kome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > We should paper the world with (something like) this rant ahead of the
> wide release of Neo1973.
> >
> > The fettered masses really don't get it yet.
> >
> >
> >
> > Covers 8 myths which drive folks to buy locked phones and/or 2yr
> contracts:
> >
> >
> http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/Its_time_to_buy_SIM-free_ph
> ones.php
> >
> >
> >
> > "How would Apple fans react if the latest Mac computer was exclusively
> locked to a particular ISP, was only available to people who live in
> that ISP's service area, and people had to sign up to a 2 year contract
> with that ISP? The Apple fans would be mad as hell, so why on earth are
> they having to put up with exactly the same restrictions on a portable,
> pocket-sized Mac computer called the iPhone?"
> >
> >
> >
> > "How is it that Finland, a poorer, lower-density country without phone
> contracts, and with a law banning locked phones, developed far better
> phone coverage than America, the land of locked phones and 2 year
> contracts?"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sam Kome
> >  UX Team Member
> >
> >  www.motricity.com
> >  view corporate video
> >
> >
> >
> > NOTICE: This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information of
> Motricity.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is
> prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
> sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> >
> 
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Re: A timely rant: Time for SIM-free phones.

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070226 18:16]:
>Sure not a problem but when you are finished `papering' please explain to
>all the consumers why the costs of their $49 (or free) handsets just
>doubled or tripled to full retail/manufacturing costs.

Well, that's bullshit. In Germany you get usually non-simlocked phones
with your contract, and that's it. In Austria, other tradition, you
get usually simlocked phone with contracts, but it's relativly cheap
after the contract expired to get the network operator to unlock it.

The relevant bit here is, that the thing that allowes the operator to
offer the lower rates is the contract, not the simlock.

One last interesting thing, non-supported phones when sold by the
operators in Austria are priced quite high, AND do include the simlock.

And it's obviously legal to unlock it anyway, because some discount
operator has been recommending 3rd-party unlock services ;)

Andreas

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Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Sam Kome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070222 20:50]:
> Yes, if the phone in question has been locked to another carrier:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy_lock

Well, that's not the carrier stoping you, it's the phone. You know,
there are sources for unlocked phones, like stores selling them. They
just happen to be a little bit more expensive, because you have to pay
the full price, instead of the carrier paying the majority of the
cost. ;)

A complete different thing would be if the networks would be checking
serial numbers and disallow using a 3rd party phone.

Andreas

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Re: Porting OpenMoko to other platforms

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Stefan Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070221 23:28]:
> Hello.
> 
> On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 12:39, Nathan Williams wrote:
> >   Does anyone have a list of active projects that will be porting
> >   OpenMoko to other hardware platforms?  I currently own a phone
> >   and a Zaurus clamshell and would love replace them both with
> >   OpenMoko on the HTC Universal (known by many other names as
> >   well) or on the new i-Mate Ultimate 7150 that will be out
> >   shortly.
> 
> It already runs on HTC universal and work on for HTC's with qvga
> display in ongoing.

How well does it run on the HTC universal?
(aka, is it possible to take a phone call or initiate it without
entering cmdline commands?)

Andreas

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Re: Forums Page?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070220 19:57]:
>It's funny that you mention that I am only 24 so I guess I would fit in
>the youngster category.  I don't even know what usenet is.  I guess that's
usenet, news => it's just a very email-ish forum system. It's older
than the "Internet" ;)

Andreas

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Re: Forums Page?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070220 19:57]:
> My children (I've got one who just finished his undergrad degree in
> CS, and a second who is a pre-med) don't send much email, but are
> constantly texting.

Well, I do texting mostly on phones with a sensible keyboard or
grafitti entry system. And no, T9 is not a sensible input method IMHO.

Andreas

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Re: Forums Page?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070220 19:57]:
> It's interesting to note that most youngsters seem to prefer forums, and most
> of us old-timers (IIRC you're my age, Joe) prefer mailing lists. I wonder why
> that is?

I think it's not a question of age as such. It's mostly a question of
technical competence related to mail. And yes, I started using the
"net" when sites with email-only hookup were seldom but still existed.
;)

Andreas

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Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* el jefe delito <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070220 17:20]:
>Would this warranty cover accidental breakage of the large screen, say by
>leaning on it against a desk or something?

I fear not. It's the one most probable way to kill the phone, and
probably the most expensive part to replace.

(E.g. experiences with laptops show, that a dead display is
practically never repaired.)

> 
>I find it unlikely but it would really put minds at ease when spending a
>small fortune on a phone; plus it might be that extra incentive to lure
>even more to this phone...

Yeah, but that would be a thing for a mobile insurrance, not for the
product proper.

Andreas

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Re: Warranty on phase 1 phones

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Ole Tange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070220 14:52]:
> On 2/20/07, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 17:32 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote:
> >>
> >> Is there any warranty on phase 1 phones ? If the screen is bad, some
> >> input ports don't work, etc. what will be the process then ?
> >
> >Of course we'll have a warranty ;-)
> >
> >I'm not sure of the exact terms at this point. Probably something
> >standard like 1 year.
> 
> Which in EU will translate to 2 years if sold in EU (as per EU legislation).
Or as a sarcastic to 6 months (where the seller has to prove the
defect was not there when the item was sold). After 6 months, the
buyer needs to prove that the defect has been already there when the
item was sold.

Actually, that's only the implied warranty (Gewährleistung in German),
while FIC is free to grant an express warranty (Garantie) of one year
if they like.

Andreas

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Re: Market Timing (was USB Connectivity)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Martin Lefkowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070220 15:55]:
> The fact that you can buy a GSM/GPRS module that runs off the AT command
> set is the big innovation.  I don't know how long this has been
> possible, but I've only heard about this recently.

Well, that's not such a big innovation. HTC seems to have something
comparable (as the Linux on Winmobile projects show). And I've used
stationary GSM modules using the AT command set (which btw, are
standardized too) a decade ago.

Andreas

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Re: Ignore Behavior

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Joe Shmoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070213 00:19]:
>Most cell phones don't seem to handle this properly.
> 
>When your phone has no signal, any calls go straight to voicemail.  When
>you don't answer your phone, calls go to voicemail after a pre-specified
>number of rings (typically 5).

Just remember, this is implemented by the network, usually by call
forwarding to the voicemail number.

> 
>When someone calls and you want to ignore them (by pressing a button when
>they call), most phones send the call to voicemail as soon as you press
>"Ignore".  The whole point of ignoring someone is that the person
>shouldn't KNOW that they are being ignored.Can we get this fixed on
>the Neo?
> 
>Also, it would be nice to have the option to specify that all calls from a
>particular person will always be 'ignored' or always go directly to
>voicemail.

This is right, and should probably configurable. OTOH, just remember
that somebody really trying to reach you will start calling with the
number suppressed.

So to make this a sure thing, you would need to block all anonymous
calls. Now, out of personal experience I do know that sending the
caller number sometimes doesn't work when roaming => so surpressing
all anonymous calls would also surpress your wife, who happens to be
abroad :(

Andreas

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Re: T-Mobile finagling advice?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070210 19:47]:
> 
> >>
> >>Unfortunatly, It looks to me like T-Mobile is currently not interested in
> >>letting its pre-paid customers use GPRS to go anywhere outside their Silly
> >>T-Zones walled garden.
> >
> >Let me guess.
> >This contains such things as weather reports, news headlines, ringtones, ...
> >All available for a small per-use-fee?
> >
> >Sigh.
> >They see GPRS as a profit source, to drive profit to their own partners.
> >Rather than a service to provide to users.
> >
> That's a depressing prospect.  All this openmoko and no web?  I wonder if 
> cingular is any better...

This is on a prepaid T-Mobile in the USA. European prepaid SIMs seem
to support GPRS fine, albeit it's usually priced unattractivly. (The
only Austrian provider with a somehow "acceptable" prepaid tarif is
drei, which doesn't apply to the Neo, as they have only UMTS. All
other tarifs are in the  >5EUR area)

And yes, I find using prepaid sims a stupid idea anyways :)

Andreas

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Re: between 300ms and 10s - wow that is asyncron :) Re: Voice over GPRS?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070202 18:58]:
> Salve Andreas!
> 
> Andreas Kostyrka schrieb am Freitag, den 02. Februar 2007 um 18:44h:
> > Looks nice, BUT you don't have always a 14400 bps uplink. 
> But even iax2 has a huge overhead - mybe still potential to 
> optimize the protocol?
> 
> > > So my question would be how much delay will bring a GPRS
> > > connection compared with normal internet connections?
> > 
> > Somewhere between 300ms and 10 seconds. (I think I once that over
> > 60seconds ping times in Munich ;) )
> wow - so for browsing a proxy could become interesting to
> preload the next newspages...

The problem is that with GPRS you don't have that much bandwidth to do
background fetches :(
(EGPRS/EDGE would be a different thing)

Plus people pay for these bandwidths in most places on this planet :(

Plus, the 10secs was a maximum value that I've encountered multiple
times. With GPRS the latency most often sticks below the 2secs
bracket, but 10secs do happen from time to time. UMTS is, IMHE, worse :(

Andreas

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Re: Voice over GPRS?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070202 18:26]:
> Incoming bandwidth:   14.5 Kbps
> 0.01 Mbps
> 1.81 KBps
> 0 MBps
> 
> Outgoing bandwidth:   14.5 Kibps
> 0.01 Mbps
> 1.81 KBps
> 0 MBps
> Total bandwidth (incoming and outgoing): 29 Kbps
> 0.03 Mbps
> 3.63 KBps
> 0 MBps
> 
> 29Kbps = 3.625 kByte/s

Looks nice, BUT you don't have always a 14400 bps uplink. Beside
streaming VoIP without QoS can only work with an strong oversupply of
bandwidth. In the case of GPRS you often have only 9600-14400 bps
uplink spped.

> I was not speaking about VoIP, I was talking about
> asyncron voice services like the buzzthingy
> "Push to talk" - but I do not whant to push - 
> "Talk to talk" would be more smart - no need to 
> press a button.

That seems reasonable.

> So my question would be how much delay will bring a GPRS
> connection compared with normal internet connections?

Somewhere between 300ms and 10 seconds. (I think I once that over
60seconds ping times in Munich ;) )

Andreas

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Re: Voice over GPRS?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Paul Wouters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070202 18:16]:
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Robert Michel wrote:
> 
> > Does anybody has experiances/ideas about Voice over GPRS?
> 
> See: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rc277/globe02.pdf
> 
> They discuss tcp as well as udp performance over GPRS.
> 
> > How long is the delay? It could maybe used for asyncron
> > voice communication Talk2Talk (instead of pushing a button)
> 
> > By using 1KB/s for audio and some overhead, let
> > us say 2 KB/s 0.24Euro/MB = 24 Cent for 500 seconds,
> > 60 seconds makes then about 3 cents. When both using
> > this 6 cents. Hmm that would be interesting when
> > the user makes often make brakes/pause in their talk.
> 
> Using speex, you'd need 1.6kb upstream. So bandwidth is not the

GPRS often has only 9600 bits per second, aka 1200 bytes per second
upstream at best.

Andreas

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Re: Voice over GPRS?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Paul Wouters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070202 18:18]:
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile & Embedded wrote:
> 
> > Also, most data plans specifically prohibit VoIP usage
> > and may even prevent it technically.
> 
> AFAIK, only T-Mobile did that, and they removed that clause a few months ago.

Eplus does have that clause too.

Plus running standard VoIP protocols like SIP and friends over a NAT
firewall that is not cooperating is not possible anyway. So you would
need to add a tunnel to some endpoint on the Internet, and add that
latency to the bad latency of GPRS/UMTS :(

Andreas

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Re: Voice over GPRS?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile & Embedded <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
[070202 17:56]:
> VoIP calls typically require approx. 120 kbit/s *each*
> direction, that's 240 kbit/s for a two-way conversation.
> 
> UMTS gives you 384 kbit/s if you're lucky. Most of the time
> it's more like 150 kbit/s, so VoIP will only work with
> very poor quality.

UMTS gives you only 64kbit/s upstream.

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Re: Voice over GPRS?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070202 17:06]:
> Salve!
> 
> Does anybody has experiances/ideas about Voice over GPRS?
> How long is the delay? It could maybe used for asyncron
> voice communication Talk2Talk (instead of pushing a button)

The lag with E+ for GPRS/UMTS is at best in my experience 300ms,
and sometimes goes up into seconds.

Please consider also the fact, that GPRS is a low priority service.
Hence for GPRS you get the following fascinating list of properties:
a) high latency
b) non uniform distribution of latency and bandwidth.
c) at best analog modem speeds, albeit only download wise, upload wise
you are often limited to 1 channel with 9600bps.
d) no QoS support

So the only "sensible" voice application over GPRS might be
push-to-talk, which by the way is offered by some carries over GPRS :)

> By using 1KB/s for audio and some overhead, let

In many cases you won't be able to upload 1KB/s.

> us say 2 KB/s 0.24Euro/MB = 24 Cent for 500 seconds,
> 60 seconds makes then about 3 cents. When both using 
> this 6 cents. Hmm that would be interesting when
> the user makes often make brakes/pause in their talk.

No way you can think of doing sensible full-duplex two way discussions.

As an example, take WLAN. VoIP over WLAN works, because the involved
bandwidths have a completly different ratio: Most sip providers claim
2x100kilobits/s as requirement, and even 11mbps WLAN has an useable
bandwidth of 4-5mbps.

Andreas

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Re: idea: second SIM card support

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Myk Melez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070131 09:39]:
> Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
> >Problem solved, as in option 2:
> >
> >http://www.dualsim.de/
> >  
> That's kind of a solution, except it looks complicated and seems to require 
> me to mod my phone, which is a high enough barrier to entry that I'm not 
> likely to do it.

Nope, you either need to "mod" the SIMs, or you can use a
model-specific version where you can use the "fullsize SIMs" directly.

> 
> >I fear that having two GSM modules does not make sense in a general
> >phone. (Despite the fact that I do have SIMs from two countries ;) )
> >  
> It's possible that you're right, but I'm not so sure.  Influential US 
> websites like The Travel Insider recommend using a local SIM when traveling 
> abroad, so there may be a significant 
> audience for such SIMs, and who wouldn't rather use a second SIM with their 
> regular phone?

Yes, but:

*) for this to work you need an unlocked phone. Depending upon
countries this is a problem, because carriers sell only locked phones.
(btw, the US seems a backwater when it comes to mobiles *g*)

*) guess many carriers, which make quite a bit of profit from roaming
surcharges will have problems with subsidizing phones that cut into
these profits.

*) it's just a niche market.

Andreas

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Re: Email Push Service :) smtp+dnotify+Asterisk+... :)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Elliot F. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070131 03:45]:
> Robert Michel wrote:
> >Salve,
> >I can't understand why Blackberry and other has become
> >so big into the market, because the server side software
> >for a push service are normal linux admins tools.
> >But wait - the client side need some open programmable
> >devices - like OpenMoko and the Neo1973 :)))
> >When GPRS is always on, than it needs just a emailclient
> >checks regulary every n minutes for new mail - h
> >that's innovation - didn't we used to use this fetching
> >emails from pop, imap or mailboxes since years? (Myself since 1990)
> >Soo I'm not keen in having an email push service,
> >but I'm tired to hear the hype in the news about this.
> >Again, when GPRS is always on, push service is silly
> >buzzword, but what when GPRS is off? Than we can use 1. smtp and some filter 
> >to get only the right mailsinto /var/mail/rob2neo1973
> >2. dnotify will starts a script when a new file
> >   is in /var/mail/rob2neo1973
> 
> Or you could simply modify the mail server to trigger a script when a message 
> is delivered, rather than having to poll each directory/file.  A 
> procmail/maildrop filter would be one way 
> to implement it easily (allowing you to filter for messages from specific 
> people, to certain folders, etc.)
With the specific problem that you have nowhere to push to. Normal
GPRS has to live with a strict NAT firewall. That's (and because of
billing aspects) probably why pushmailservices usually have their own
APN.

> I really like this idea.  As I understood it, many previous "push email" 
> services relied on sending an SMS message to the phone, which made the phone 
> perform the actions that you 
> describe (get new mail.)  However, hooking in directly to the incoming call 
> would save the money that SMS messages cost.

Nope, real push mail is just that. It just needs support from the
network. Or a special low bandwidth protocol to poll.

E.g. one of the highest prices mentioned here was 1KB at 3cent (CDN).
Still, one could design a protocol that sends one "I'm alive byte" say
30 minutes, and listens all the time for an "you've got mail byte".

That would mean, a standby cost of 1KB every 20 days. That's assumming
a keep alive is needed every 30 minutes. Guess it would make sense to
support an additional mode where (for the home network) the phone
senses the right standby before the NAT firewall kills our TCP
connection. (But that should be manual, because the reconnects needed
during probing will use up some KB)

> 
> I'd be interested in seeing/hearing what hooks/services will be exposed.  
> Will the incoming calls trigger a dbus message or something similar?
> 
> >5. skript2 will switch on GPRS and fetch the new
> >   mail via POP or IMAP
> >   and after downloading the mail it will inform
> >   the user (depend on the dailingprofil)
> >So did I missed something? Why is push services
> >and the software for this such a hype?

Yeah, the original poster missed the fact, that in most billing plans
switching off GPRS is expensive. E.g. GPRS is billed usually in blocks
of 10/100KB (this applies btw also to xMB included plans in Austria).

So switching off GPRS while you've fetched a 2KB email is plain stupid.

> Because it's very handy, and very well integrated.  Blackberry and Windows 
> Mobile (or whatever it's called) have the pieces at both ends that are 
> required for the integration.
Yeah, and the support of the network providers ;)

Andreas

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Re: idea: second SIM card support

[Andreas Kostyrka]

Problem solved, as in option 2:

http://www.dualsim.de/

I fear that having two GSM modules does not make sense in a general
phone. (Despite the fact that I do have SIMs from two countries ;) )

Andreas

* Myk Melez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070130 21:31]:
> I live in the US but regularly travel to Hungary, and I have a second SIM 
> card for use abroad.  I know it's too late for v1, but for future versions of 
> the phone, I'd find it useful 
> for the phone to support a second SIM card.
> 
> There a few different ways it could do this.  Here are some options, in order 
> from best/hardest to still-useful/easiest:
> 
> 1. Have a slot for a second SIM card, and activate both cards at the same 
> time. (As roaming fees come down, this option, which allows folks in the 
> States to reach me at my regular US 
> number, becomes more attractive.)
> 
> 2. Have a slot for a second SIM card, and make the owner choose which card to 
> activate when turning on the phone. (I've heard there are some existing 
> phones that do this.)
> 
> 3. Have a "storage" (i.e. no connectors) slot for a second SIM card, and make 
> the owner switch the locations of the SIM cards to activate the other one.  
> (This at least solves the 
> problem of where to store my secondary SIM when I'm not using it, since it is 
> small and easily lost.)
> 
> -myk
> 
> 
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Re: Fax modem? Fax software? Neo as T.38 gateway?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070130 18:46]:
> Harald Welte wrote:
> > yes, the GSM Modem we use has standard AT command Fax modem functionality.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure about everything I'm about to say, but I vaguely remember 
> some things from a similar discussion a while back.
> 
> In order for you to send/receive fax via a GSM connection requires you to 
> notify your carrier and them enable some features (CSD fax/data service plan).

Naturally ;) It's a kind of "CSD data" connection, but it also needs
support by the GSM module, that's the question.

(btw, a mobile with some connection to my linux laptop, plus efax are
quite ok to "print" single pages, like invoices on the run :) )

Andreas

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Re: Fax modem? Fax software? Neo as T.38 gateway?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070129 22:58]:
> My question is: would the GSM chip has a modem
> for data connections and also fax support?
Good question. And if it is, is it a standard class 1 faxmodem like
common with GSM mobiles nowaday?

Andreas

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Re: Q: desktop software?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Bryce Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070129 15:09]:
> >I would like to use FreeNX to use the Neo1973 from
> >a Workstation, and to have video projctor presentation
> >live from a Neo1973.
> 
> That sounds like a fantastic idea. It should be pretty simple to get
> something like FreeNX up and running on the device.

For the size of the display, you might get even better results with VNC.

Andreas


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Re: R: Need info on AGPS

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070125 16:07]:
> As all the TomTom gadgets prove: it isn't. GPS works pretty well without
> the A.

Well, it does or not. The question is, does AGPS help with accuracy?
Just an observation, that my builtin car navigation, which got GPS and
travel information from the car, sometimes in long parallel running
streets mistakes the street it is on :(

Andreas

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Re: OMG wiki license

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Aloril <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070125 08:33]:
> As subject implies I have proposal I fear might lead to long flamewar. I
> hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Given these assumptions/facts:
> 
> 1) We want to copy stuff from unofficial wiki to official wiki when it
> becomes available.
> 
> 2) Unofficial wiki doesn't have any copyright statement
> 
> 1) looks legally problematic given 2)
>

Even simpler proposal, because your's has the problem that it's
problematic to track who has given permission for what. Just let the
people who submitted it first move it to the official wiki.

This mailing list feels to much like a collection of hobby lawyers
nitpicking in the last weeks. (I admit that I happen to nitpick from
time to time too.)

Andreas

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Re: Ok, one point is cleard - but what is with the external antenna and the general operation lizence of the car?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070124 15:50]:
> Ahh "holding in his hand"  - so when it is fixed with a cradel it is
> still allowed to touch it. :)))
Exactly, it's the same in the StVO §1a ;)

btw, I'm all for an external antenna connector. I haven't yet tried
it, but I've got the tip, that connecting an external GSM antenna to
the window of an ICE improves reception greatly :)

Andreas

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Re: Neo1973 "Car kit" - some pittfalls due laws possible?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070124 14:52]:
> I'm not a lawyer, but if you read the ticker, the OLG just found that
> a PDA with a GSM module is to be treated as a mobile. Now, the Adac
> article claims that it's ok to use a mobile, if you don't have to pick
> it up. E.g. buttons and voice control are named as an example for
> allowed interactions.

To cite the law:
D: (1a) Dem Fahrzeugführer ist die Benutzung eines Mobil- oder
D: Autotelefons untersagt, wenn er hierfür das Mobiltelefon oder den
D: Hörer des Autotelefons aufnimmt oder hält. 

The driver is forbidden the usage of a mobile or car phone, if he
picks up or holds the mobile or car phone ear piece.

Nothing in the court finding, nor in the law talks about touching a
phone.

Andreas

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Re: Neo1973 "Car kit" - some pittfalls due laws possible?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070124 14:01]:
> Salve Andreas!
> 
> Andreas Kostyrka schrieb am Mittwoch, den 24. Januar 2007 um 13:48h:
> 
> > > Robert Michel writes:
> > > >
> > > >Since last Dezember it is forbidden for the driver to touch a PDA/mobil
> > 
> > Ok, I think that's a case of wrong translation. It's forbidden to
> > pickup the phone. you are quite allowed to touch the phone, explicitly:

I'm not a lawyer, but if you read the ticker, the OLG just found that
a PDA with a GSM module is to be treated as a mobile. Now, the Adac
article claims that it's ok to use a mobile, if you don't have to pick
it up. E.g. buttons and voice control are named as an example for
allowed interactions.

> NO, please read:
> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/81970
> 
> There was a court decision that it is forbidded for a driver
> to touch a PDA during driving, when this device just have
> a GSM module. It isn't counting if he is touching it for
> phoning or other interests like MP3 player.
> 
> Touching a PDA without GSM module isn't touchted by this 
> court decision.
> 
> > D: Wenn das Handy im Fahrzeug fest installiert ist und zur Bedienung
> > D: nicht in die Hand genommen werden muss, es beispielsweise mittels
> > D: Sprachsteuerung oder Tastendruck bedient werden kann, ist eine
> > D: Benutzung während der Fahrt weiterhin gestattet.
> > 
> > E: If the mobile is installed in the car, and one doesn't need to take
> > E: into the hand to use it, e.g. voice control or button control, the
> > E: usage while driving is allowed.
> 
> Right - with voice control you don't need to touch it.
> This court decision from Dezember changed things a little bit.
It talks about working with a PDA. Not touching.
> 
> Most of the Neo1973s will not be "installed in the car".
But the car kit will come with a cradle. :)

> I know - I haven't found a source again for this - but I've found
> this on a page last Dezember...

Technically speaking, the ADAC also mentions that other media claims
faulty that the ABE is voided. Sorry, Adac is probably one of the
best source for German rules concerning cars/driving.

But yes, the new rules are a little bit harder. E.g. my builtin
freespeaker in my Audi will be unsafer to use with the new rules. With
the old rules, I could pull the handset into my view, and dial a
number. Now I'll have to put my eyes onto the middle arm rest to dial
a number. Cool, how safety rules can be so unsafe :)

Andreas

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Re: Neo1973 "Car kit" - some pittfalls due laws possible?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070123 17:58]:

> So I haven't found a right source for this, the adac.de link hasn't
> an official law text and isn't about the point "general aproval" and
> mobiles without external antenna - it is only about the official
> requirements to free speak systems.

Dementsprechend hat eine Verwendung nicht geprüfter
Freisprecheinrichtungen nicht automatisch ein Erlöschen der ABE zur
Folge. Andererseits kann beim Einsatz nicht geprüfter
elektrischer/elektronischer Bauteile eine negative Beeinflussung auch
nicht generell ausgeschlossen werden. Ob die ABE erlischt, kann
deshalb nicht allgemein beantwortet werden, dies hängt vielmehr vom
konkreten Einzelfall ab.

Basically, that means, it cannot be controlled by the police => it has
to be taken to the TÜV or some comparable institution to assess if
there is a problem.

> So again - at the moment the police react only when people phoning
> without a free speak unit and sometimes when the people using a PDA
> during driving.

But according to the ADAC article, which btw might even make it safe
(because it is a competent explanation of the law, which might make it
safe to hide behind the concept "I didn't know that it's forbidden"),
it's only forbidden to take the PDA/phone into your hand. It's quite
ok to use it if it's mounted in some bracket.

> This is a general ban we have life with - I could imagine a touch
> GUI on a Neo1973 which to use would be more safe than using normal 
> car radios but there is the general ban (thanks to the unsafe
> GUI of normal phones.. and PDAs)
> 
> But to be precice - it is still allowed in Germany to use a PDA 
> during driving with your fingers - but not a PDA with a GSM module 
> - even when the PDA with GSM module is used only for navigation 
> or music entertainment.

Source of that assertion? The ADAC article talks about taking the device into
your hand. It's ok if you have to press buttons or it is voice
controlled.

Andreas

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Re: Neo1973 "Car kit" - some pittfalls due laws possible?

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070123 17:04]:
> Robert Michel writes:
> >
> >Since last Dezember it is forbidden for the driver to touch a PDA/mobil

Ok, I think that's a case of wrong translation. It's forbidden to
pickup the phone. you are quite allowed to touch the phone, explicitly:

D: Wenn das Handy im Fahrzeug fest installiert ist und zur Bedienung
D: nicht in die Hand genommen werden muss, es beispielsweise mittels
D: Sprachsteuerung oder Tastendruck bedient werden kann, ist eine
D: Benutzung während der Fahrt weiterhin gestattet.

E: If the mobile is installed in the car, and one doesn't need to take
E: into the hand to use it, e.g. voice control or button control, the
E: usage while driving is allowed.

Using headsets is also allowed, but only onesided, you need to be able
to follow the traffic noises.

bicycles need also the same equipment.

Headset and freespeaker need a special "e"-symbol certification. OTOH,
the "allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis" is not voided automatically despite
other reports from television.

As these rules, especially the EMV ones (about the "e"-symbol) are
derived from European legal guidelines, I'd expect that they'll apply
the same in the whole EU.

Interestingly, the complete article from ADAC does not mention
anything about external antennas being needed.

> As a matter of safety, it turns out that the major problem with using
> cell phones is the distraction, not having your hands unavailable to
> drive (even with a manual transmission).  Car kits do very, very
> little to help.

Yep. And if you are quarreling with your passenger, it's probably at
least as unsafe as quarreling with the same person via phone ;)


> >While it has become allowed to use a mobil and GSM transmitter
> >during flying a plain I fear that the laws could be be missused
> 
> When has this become allowed?

Well, there a talks, and I think first trials, as I try to avoid
planes, I'm not that much interested in this topic.

Andreas

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Re: built-in scripting languages

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 23:21]:
> On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andra? 'ruskie' Levstik wrote:
> >Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he
> >wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using
> >bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more
> >or less pointless as I don't use it myself.
> 
> I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with 
> it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install 
> the whole interpreter anyway.  
>  And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the 
> same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) 
> version of it.

conflicting versions of interpreters are quite seldom, at least in
Python-land. (That's perhaps because python has some community
processes that let's the developers know what will be enabled in the
next version, new keywords/syntax need normally imports from
__future__ *g*, e.g. taking a look at python 2.5 I can know what
keywords/changes will be enabled by default in 2.6)

> So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the 
> problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in 
> python, and another written in ruby, 
> and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters 
> installed on their Neo, and not three?

Python usually is pretty well back-wards compatible. In Unix-practice
one just distributes the scripts/modules and uses the python that is
installed on the box. Guess the same thing applies more or less to
Ruby, albeit it's not yet standard on that many distributions as Python.

> There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if 
> you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an 
> unpalatable result for the end-user.  
>  And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to 
> geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals.
ipkg install python => you get the standard python and that's it.

Andreas

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Re: built-in scripting languages

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* "Andra?? 'ruskie' Levstik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 22:52]:
> On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:
> > > Dnia poniedzia??ek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisa??:
> > >  
> > > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking
> > > > about 6 megs here )
> > >  
> > > 6M???  
> > >
> > > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search
> > > show that it will take much less then 1M
> > >
> 
> Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to
> the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one
> desires can be added.
> 
> Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he
> wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using
> bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more
> or less pointless as I don't use it myself.
> 
> IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and
> not one app extra.

The problem here is, that it might be useful to have a "standard"
language so that the standard apps can use it for embedded scripting.

Andreas

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Re: built-in scripting languages

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Corey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 22:17]:
> On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:
> > Dnia poniedzia?ek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisa?:
> > 
> > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking
> > > about 6 megs here )
> > 
> > 6M??? 
> >
> > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search
> > show that it will take much less then 1M
Well, that seems to be the case for the openzaurus python packages too.

Andreas

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Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:37]:
> That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to
> wikipedia-stable, might instead say:
> 
> "So, it's something _different_ than Linux?"
> "Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of
> the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets
> misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system,
> please call it GNU/Linux."

You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;)

Andreas

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Re: built-in scripting languages

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:30]:
> * Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 19:40]:
> > Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted
> > language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl,
> > etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in
> > flash, I would like to offer up an alternative.
> 
> Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized
Ok, without optimizing much, just packaging it up a little bit, I've
managed to minimize python2.5 (supercomplete set) to less than 10MB.

If anyone is interested, I can try to build an even smaller version of
python that is useful.

I'd second also the idea to make the embedded JavaScript available for
scripting, which would be a nice language too.

Andreas

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Re: built-in scripting languages

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 19:40]:
> Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted
> language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl,
> etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in
> flash, I would like to offer up an alternative.

Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized
version in Debian Sarge, with all kinds of optional external stuff
installed comes at 23MB. Optimizing Python2.5 so that it fits small
devices is not exactly a problem. The question is more, how much space
can we spare?

Andreas

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Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 01:38]:
> I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked 
> on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing 
> about "Linux").

Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you
use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything
new first. *g* Or just so long on the free software train, that I take
liberty as an important criteria if a piece of software is relevant.

I'm really not a zealot, but I usually avoid learning anything about
closed things that I cannot use. And being a contractor, that means
that anything forbidding commercial usage is out.

OTOH, it's funny how many opensource projects make it hard to get that
information. No licence page on the homepage. One sometimes needs to fetch
the source to check the license.



Andreas

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Re: Power for USB Host

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070121 06:44]:
> keep in mind, you'll only get USB 1.1 speeds :(

USB1.1 are almost certainly ok for a phone, this are not
high-performance cluster nodes, just power-saving phones.

And especially 11mps WLan works perfect with USB1, I guess 54mps will
work ok too, albeit perhaps a bit slower then they could.

(11mps has a netto 4mps bandwidth, I have no idea what data transfer
rates 54mps might have)

Andreas

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Re: OpenMoko devices and Mac OS X

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Steve Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070121 03:12]:
> On 20/01/2007, at 6:32 PM, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> 
> >On 20 jan 2007, at 14.14, Renaissance Man wrote:
> >
> >>On 20 Jan 2007, at 9:55 pm, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> >>
> >>>Awesome to see so much people ready to jump on the job to get it working 
> >>>with Mac. That was supposed to be my first thing to make sure as well but 
> >>>it seems like I'm not really 
> >>>alone.
> >>>
> >>>Looking forward to this so much. =)
> >>
> >>Same. Except I hope it eventually has the "just works" factor (i.e you can 
> >>just load the software and it just works, without needing to be a hacker to 
> >>get it to work correctly, etc) 
> >>like iSync does for me now. I reckon a lot of Mac-users like me will go for 
> >>OpenMoko instead of iPhone if OpenMoko can be demonstrated to do that.
> >
> >Which pretty much means that when the developer release hits the streets we 
> >happy hackers will make sure it works for us and when it is polished a bit, 
> >perhaps around public release 
> >even, it will be available as a download on our favourite site.
> >
> >I don't mind being the one who makes sure it just works for normal users and 
> >I bet I'm not alone in the sentiment.
> 
> Good to hear there are developers keen on making the "it just works"  work 
> for normal users, I'm moving more and more from a technical geek to a just 
> need it to work for me user:-).  
> Also very pleasing to see there is a lot of Mac users interested in this 
> project. I assume many others will find this project as I did after been 
> disillusioned by the Iphone and 
> looking for something else that will fill the need of a phone that will allow 
> me to share my Mac apps and data I chose with my phone.  Looking forward to a 
> phone that allows me to use 
> it the way I want to use it, can take it with me every where I go (different 
> countries) and swap SIM for the local carrier so I don't get hosed by roaming 
> charges etc.  Now there is an 
> idea, program the ability to copy SIM card profiles so I can switch between 
> SIMs with out physically inserting it when I need it.  Not sure how possible 
> that is, don't know enough 
> about how the SIM cards work.

SIM == Subscriber Identity Module. Don't think copying will work.

Well, technically the SIM provides the cryptographic secrets that are
needed to logon onto the GSM network. Don't think you can copy it, BUT
there are a number of options:

a) put the SIM physically into the phone:
http://www.dualsim.de/en/index.html

b) use BT's new SIM access profile. Now it would be useful to have
small battery power SIM-access BT server boxes, albeit I fear that
would need cooperation from the GSM module.

Andreas

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