Re: Openmoko Images

[Kyle Bassett]

Is there a reason why I can't find the ipkg utility on any of these images?

I am using
http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/Openmoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20080430-om-gta01.rootfs.jffs2

from automated.it, because all the builds on OM are down...

-Kyle

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Jim Morris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Warren Baird wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Jim Morris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately that is not the case, I've been playing with BT
> > headsets for weeks, and have not got a
> > peep out of one (I've tried several), I have not even got a2dp
> > working either.
> >
> >
> > Based on the comments for http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1656 it
> > sounds like some people have managed to get BT audio working with a2dp,
> > albeit with some signal strength issues.   This is on my list of things
> > to try, but I haven't gotten around to it yet...
> >
> > Warren
> >
>
> I tried exactly the same thing, but was unable to get anything to play
> using asound.
>
> However the A2DP uses a different path, it sends system PCM into the audio
> chip and then routes it
> to the PCM out which goes directly to the BT chip. It is nice to know they
> heard something, however
> there are other issues with this path that are hinted at on the wolfson
> site,there maybe a clocking
> issue between the i2c input and the pcm output, at least that seems true
> for the reverse direction.
>
> BT headset to/from GSM is yet another path, and should not involve the CPU
> at all (other than for
> setup).
>
> --
> Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com
>
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Openmoko Images

[Kyle Bassett]

Hello all,

I was wondering what would be the best set of images to flash to the Neo1973
for a bluetooth/sound project I am working on.  (I need to make sure that I
can TX/RX audio to a bt headset).

There have been quite a few changes to the images lately (along with
buildhost, etc), and I haven't been able to keep up with them all...but I
need workable image for the prototype which has to be demonstrated on
Wednesday.

Thanks!

-Kyle
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Re: Sean: Please authorise the release of GTA01 schematics

[Kyle Bassett]

haha wow...it's been a long time in making, but you guys have finally done
it.  I really have to commend the entire OM staff for their true dedication!

I am seriously contemplating release of my own video entitled, "ROFLWS:
Rolling on floor laughing, with schematics!"

And only on this ML could I say something so bizarre as the above, and still
get chuckles... good job guys.

-Kyle

PS- and you never know, ROFLWS might just catch on :-P


On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Am Sa  2. August 2008 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber:
> > Am So  20. Juli 2008 schrieb Rod Whitby:
> > > Sean, please release the hardware schematics and pcb layout and
> > > component placements for the GTA01.
> > >
> > > Let the GTA01 run free and continue to impact the material world.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > > -- Rod Whitby
> >
> >
> > PCB-layout is a little difficult to release - this is a multilayer PCB.
> > Component placement 01/02 TBD.
> > Schematics 01 TBD.
> > Needs some prettyprinting first. Also there are NDA-issues with TI
> Calypso.
> > Those parts of schematics we mustn't release you may find elsewhere
> though
> > (heard sth about Chinese books on cellphones ;)
> >
> > Stay assured we won't forget on GTA01 owners.
> > cheers
> > jOERG
> >
>
> added GTA01, component-placement for 01 and 02
> see
> http://people.openmoko.org/joerg
> and
> http://downloads.openmoko.org/schematics/
>
> for some echo in press see
> http://www.google.de/search?q=openmoko+schematics
>
> please note this is a RC, not a "gold"
> Feel free to comment!
>
> cheers
> jOERG
>
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Re: DHL has a package for me!

[Kyle Bassett]

awesome!

why does it matter that you are or are not an american?

-Kyle

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:57 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My samples arrived!
>
> I'm in customs hell. They want me to prove I am an american. So I have to
> send them a copy of
> My social security card or my taxes.
>
>
>
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Kyle Bassett]

More thanks Steve!

I'm glad you guys slimmed down the original packaging, as anything above
~400 becomes very prohibitive (as a work in progress platform) for many
people.

Keep up the great work and thanks for the frequent updates!

-Kyle

* proud GTA01 hacker, GTA02 stalker ;-) *



On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Michele Renda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi Steve
>
> Thank you for the update.
>
> I think you (you all from openmoko) worked very well, and I am happy to
> know these update.
>
> According me was a good idea to remove some accessories to cut off the
> price: a lot of person, can not to have too much money to buy for something
> that still they don't know, so I think it is good to interest more persons /
> developer. Who need, can alway to buy the accessory he need.
>
> I am happy to tell to you that this evening I decided to buy a Freerunner,
> and I hope in a future to be able to produce something for the Openmoko
> comunity.
>
> Best regards
> Michele Renda
>
>
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Re: Accelerometer brainstorming

[Kyle Bassett]

Alexy is correct.  Due to the integrative nature of accelerometers, the
longer the time, the more error associated with any result.

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:52:56 +0200, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  What do we need the CAN interface for?
> > We already know the speed before we enter the tunnel, and if the neo
> > is in a car holder in a stable position, calibrated with some
> > software, it knows from the accelerometers if we are driving strait
> > ahead or making a turn and also if we are accelerating. With a little
> > bit of mathematics, this can turn out to be very precise.
> >
>
> As you're driving through a long tunnel (the longest one in Norway being
> 24.5 km), error accumulation will deteriorate the precision to the point of
> rendering the data useless.
>
>
> --
> Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
>
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Re: Accelerometer brainstorming

[Kyle Bassett]

I think your examples are very possible.  "Kind of reaching" would be
something like trying to detect the type of jacket the person is wearing
based on how much the fibers stretch during each step...or whether their
jacket is open, by measuring the horizontal swinging motion.  If the
acceleration curve is very crisp, then the phone is prolly in their pant
pocket.  ;-)  but I still say these things are not *impossible*, just
require some very intuitive software.

-Kyle


On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Crane, Matthew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> * I mentioned this in another thread, but if the device:
>- goes from 60km+ to 0 in short order, e.g. high g stop
>- while traveling horizontally
>- over a road
>- an on-screen alert/countdown is not stoped
> Then it's likely a vehicular accident so auto-call/sms for help with
> some kind of countdown to disable.  Only really possible to do that with
> a phone + GPS + acell.
>
> * Sense when the owner is in a car by keying on the vibration signature
> and acceleration, possibly with gps data, and automatically bring up the
> assigned travel/map application.
>
> * Use acell data to charecterize person carrying the phone (as many
> couples out there will share phones, or give to children) and tie into
> user profile.
>
> * Detect when phone has dropped out of ones pocket, short fall by aprupt
> stop, beep three times loudly.  (that's kind of reaching..)
>
> Matt
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alexey
> Feldgendler
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:22 AM
> To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
> Subject: Accelerometer brainstorming
>
>
> Just like my recent post about using GPS to enhance the phone, I'll try
> to
> explore the synergy opportunities for the accelerometers that Neo has.
> Once again, some of this might have already been discussed.
>
> * Intuitive mute: put the ringing phone on a flat horizontal surface
> (table) with its screen facing down to stop the ringing. Intuitive for
> the
> user and easy to detect with the accelerometers. Could also be used to
> hang up the current call. The gesture is very distinguishable and is
> hard
> to misinterpret because there aren't many situations when the user would
>
> normally put the phone on the table screen down.
>
> * Vibration control: when the phone is lying flat, either with its
> screen
> up or down, don't vibrate, so as to not produce the annoying loud noise.
>
> Ring instead, or do something else. Maybe make a weaker vibration, if
> the
> vibrator can do that.
>
> * Step counter: use the accelerometers to count steps when walking or
> running. Some people use dedicated devices for that.
>
> * GPS power saving: you can't move if you don't accelerate, so don't do
>
> power-expensive location detection until acceleration is detected. Once
>
> it's detected, start monitoring the location and keep doing it. Stop
> monitoring once the position stops changing for a while.
>
>
> --
> Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
>
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Re: Community announcement: poll for Openmoko "Community Member of the Week"

[Kyle Bassett]

Great idea Michael!

-Kyle

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Dear community,
>
> I'd like to initiate a weekly poll for you, our community, to nominate a
> fellow community member who has contributed substantially to the
> project, whether an application, a bug fix, testing work, How-To guide,
> whatever.
>
> The intent is clearly to identify and appreciate those of you who have
> made and continue to make substantial contributions, and also to
> encourage that extra bit of work required to turn a good application
> into an excellent one, with a nicely polished GUI, a well written user
> guide, etc.
>
> There is also an important open source philosophical point to this: As I
> speak at many public events, I am often asked to justify the open source
> nature of this project, and specifically how the community contributes
> to the project. I try to keep up with everything you all do, but the
> amount is so high that I'm sure I'm missing many important contributions.
>
> This poll will allow you to bring to my attention work I may have missed.
>
> I emphasize that this is not limited to applications or in fact software
> at all.
>
> I'm not sure if it makes more sense to do this on the wiki or the
> website, but I'd like to try doing this on the wiki first. I think our
> community is sufficiently honest and respectful that we don't need
> elaborate checks to make sure people aren't voting more than once.
>
> Perhaps all that is needed is a wiki page with a table with 3 columns:
> Nominator (your name or nickname), nominee (who you are voting for) and
> reason.
>
> At the end of the week the winner gets a T-shirt from
> http://128333.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/ and a new poll takes place.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Can someone set up such a wiki page?
>
> Once we iron out the details and the wiki page is set up I'll announce
> this on the "announce" list.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>
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Re: network registration from NEO! please help!

[Kyle Bassett]

In addition, I would recommend testing the specific SIM cards, as some
people have purchased a SIM just for the GTA01/02.  Add a column in the wiki
for ("Verified", "Unknown" SIM card functionality status)?

-Kyle

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Erin Yueh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi List,
>
> I've created a new page for this issue in Openmoko Wiki.  Welcome to
> contribute your network status with all community.  BTW, we'd like to
> just confirm your IMEI code whether it has one or all zero, so please
> just write Yes or No in table. Thanks a lot! :)
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM_network_registration
>
> Best Regards,
> Erin
>
> Wolfgang Spraul wrote:
> > cool. Should we create a wiki page to collect the results?
> > Wolfgang
> >
> > On Mar 17, 2008, at 12:43 PM, Erin Yueh wrote:
> >
> >> Hi List,
> >>
> >> We'd like to ask your kindly helps on network registration by using
> >> your NEO devices. Particularly, the network from T-Mobile in UK, AT&T
> >> in USA, and Vodafone in Germany, since we've heard some problems about
> >> network registration. It's difficult to camp the network by using some
> >> specific SIM cards. If you are willing to update your network status
> >> with us, we really appreciate from your works. Thanks a lot! :)
> >>
> >> Our questions as below:
> >>
> >> 1. What NEO device you are using? GTA01 or GTA02
> >>
> >> 2. Where is your location and what is your network provider? eg.
> >> T-Mobile, San Francisco in USA
> >>
> >> 3. When you boot the NEO, how long it takes to register the network?
> >> eg. in normal case, it should be able to register to a network in 1~2
> >> minutes immediately.
> >>
> >> 4. What is your GSM firmware version? you can get this number by an AT
> >> command. Using SSH to your NEO, then type this command:
> >>
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# libgsmd-tool -m atcmd
> >> libgsm-tool - (C) 2006-2007 by Harald Welte and OpenMoko, Inc.
> >> This program is Free Software and has ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
> >>
> >> AT+CGMR
> >> STR=`AT+CGMR'
> >> RSTR=`+CGMR: "HW: GTA02BV5, GSM:
> >> gsm_ac_gp_fd_pu_em_cph_ds_vc_cal35_ri_36_amd8_ts0-Moko6"'
> >>
> >> 5. What is your IMEI code? by this AT command like previous steps.
> >> AT+CGSN
> >> STR=`AT+CGSN'
> >> RSTR=`+CGSN: 000'
> >>
> >> 6. if NEO takes over 3 minutes to register to the network or it just
> >> re-register to the network again and again. Please attach your gsm log
> >> file ('/tmp/gsm.log') to our bugzilla, we already created a bug for
> >> this issue.
> >> http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1024
> >>
> >>
> >> PS. Check our wiki site, if you have problems on these stuff.
> >>
> >> How to use SSH on NEO:
> >> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking
> >> How to use libgsmd-tool:
> >> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd
> >>
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Erin
> >>
> >
>
>
>
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Re: iPhone Acquired!

[Kyle Bassett]

I do have an AT&T sim card that came with the phone, but it is not
activated...  It is recognized by the iPhone as an AT&T card.  I could put
the SIM card in the Neo and see if it is recognized, but I don't have AT&T
service for it.

-Kyle

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Do you have an AT&T SIM card? Does it work with your iPhone? (I know you
> said you didn't get an AT&T contract.)
>
> I'd be very interested in whether that SIM card works in a Neo.
>
> Michael
>
> Kyle Bassett wrote:
> > Well, through some mysterious events within the past few days and some
> > favors people owe me, I have acquired an 8GB iPhone (without the AT&T
> > contract)!  Now don't think this means I am defecting to the iPhone
> > community, by any means :-)  I actually am writing for suggestions to
> > make this iPhone helpful to the OpenMoko community.  Please don't ask me
> > to smash or demolish it...yet.  I have been messing around with it the
> > last few days, and there are a ton of usability suggestions that can and
> > will benefit OM/Neo.  Firstly, I want to say that I am very disappointed
> > with the iPhone's touch resolution (not the viewable screen, the
> > physical touch interface).
> >
> > There are other threads relating to iPhone vs. OM/Neo interfacing, but I
> > believe we should start from ground zero now that we know we have an
> > iPhone to play with.
> >
> > I am still debating lending the phone out to those who want to play with
> > it, depending on the interest of the community, we'll see where it goes.
> >
> > Details will follow!
> >
> > -Kyle
> >
> >
> > 
> >
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iPhone Acquired!

[Kyle Bassett]

Well, through some mysterious events within the past few days and some
favors people owe me, I have acquired an 8GB iPhone (without the AT&T
contract)!  Now don't think this means I am defecting to the iPhone
community, by any means :-)  I actually am writing for suggestions to make
this iPhone helpful to the OpenMoko community.  Please don't ask me to smash
or demolish it...yet.  I have been messing around with it the last few days,
and there are a ton of usability suggestions that can and will benefit
OM/Neo.  Firstly, I want to say that I am very disappointed with the
iPhone's touch resolution (not the viewable screen, the physical touch
interface).

There are other threads relating to iPhone vs. OM/Neo interfacing, but I
believe we should start from ground zero now that we know we have an iPhone
to play with.

I am still debating lending the phone out to those who want to play with it,
depending on the interest of the community, we'll see where it goes.

Details will follow!

-Kyle
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Re: VoIP+IAX Program Theory for OM

[Kyle Bassett]

Thanks for all the input!

To clarify:
I have already set this this system up using linux/win/mac IAX clients and
it works great.  Reliability is very high (no failures within the 4 months
I've had it up) with my dedicated asterisk server running off my DSL
connection (QoS on with a linux router).  If the asterisk server cannot
reach me via a VoIP connection, it fallsback to calling my cell phone
number.  If the asterisk box fails for whatever reason, my VoIP provider has
a fallback number to dial as well.  The asterisk server just has a VoIP
account for inbound and outbound calls, no analog lines are connected.

The cost benefit here would be the ability to accept a lower plan from your
cell provider (possibly data-only when 3G is available?), or even use a
prepaid service with the smartphone.  I am currently using a per-minute
VoIP/POTS termination plan with no monthly fee, which works out to be much
cheaper with the lower cellular plan.

I have not wrote the application as of yet, I wanted to gauge interest for a
project like this.  If I do write this application, I would like to
implement encryption along the way.  In addition, I would set up an asterisk
box at our business location for testing within a larger userbase.  The
reason I prefer to use a full asterisk system is the ability to integrate it
within our business.

I prefer IAX over SIP because it is NAT routeable, whereas SIP has many
issues with firewall traversal.  In reality, the client should support both.

Keep it coming! :-)

-Kyle
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VoIP+IAX Program Theory for OM

[Kyle Bassett]

Hey guys,

I've been contemplating writing an IAX client for OM which would be capable
of the following:

Prerequisites:
-user has dedicated VoIP phone number routed to an Asterisk server[1]
---OR a compatible VoIP provider that supports fallback[2] calling
-user has smartphone+OM with some form of internet access (wifi/bt
internet/ethernet)
---in addition to regular GSM/CDMA service on the smartphone
-[optional] user has regular GSM/CDMA cell phone+service


Usage situation:
The user exchanges the VoIP number with all contacts.  When someone attempts
to contact the user, via dialing the VoIP number, the asterisk server
answers the call and checks to see if the user is available over VoIP.  If
the user's smartphone is on and connected to the internet, the OM IAX client
should connect to the asterisk server automatically (depending on the user's
settings, etc.)  If the phone is available over VoIP, asterisk attempts to
ring the user over VoIP for a specified time.  If the user does not answer
or a connection problem persisted, then the asterisk server can forward the
call to the user's regular (OM or third party) cell line.  Asterisk is very
flexible and many permutations of this example can be accomplished, ie.
calling all the numbers at once, and forwarding the call to the first to
pickup.


There are many benefits to this system:
--User has complete control over the call routing and voicemail system
--User can prevent the usage of regular cell airtime by using VoIP as much
as possible
--User can give one phone number to all contacts and have asterisk decide
how to handle the call (routing not just to the cell phones, but to home
lines, etc.)
--During the debugging process with OM+GTA0x, users can carry both phones
and still use just one number throughout the day
Call comes in->asterisk tries OM[VoIP]-> tries OM[GSM] -> tries regular
third party cell phone (can also ring all numbers at once)


[1] asterisk.org
[2] fallback calling is a service that allows VoIP users to enter a number
(regular landline/cell) as a fallback in case the VoIP call cannot be
established

I have tried to remain as general as possible, that way this post won't
become outdated with specifics to any specific hardware.  In reality, we
want OM on as many phones as possible.  ;-)

Please provide any feedback or ideas!

-Kyle
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Re: Question for OpenMoko: can we please buy just a battery?

[Kyle Bassett]

I can second this.  I have used a similar design in some mobile handheld
prototypes, holds up quite well!  Much more efficient.

-Kyle

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 5:13 AM, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> For those with a soldering iron I can recommend mintyboost [1]
>
> Works great here, two AA batteries extend the life of the Neo for about
> two hours.
>
> As it is a dumb charger you need to manually activate fast charge,
> otherwise the Neo will only pull 100mA.
>
> Make sure you test the output voltage with a voltmeter before connecting
> it to the Neo for the first time. Mine gives perfect 5.02V.
>
> [1] http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/
>
>
> On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 17:31 -0800, ian douglas wrote:
> > I raised this question to Michael at SCALE 6x and wanted to publicly ask
> > it as well but had forgotten until the latest list of messages on the
> > device-users list about battery life times and charging.
> >
> > Is it possible to purchase *just* a battery from you guys?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ian
>
>
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Re: Request for assistance: Need a wiki page for buying andselling GTA01

[Kyle Bassett]

The GTA01 (original retail $) will also be significantly cheaper though...

On Feb 19, 2008 7:57 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> ... which brings up an interesting question: how many people are likely to
> want to buy a GTA01 once the GTA02 is released?
>
> I'm thinking about listing my GTA01 for sale *now* than to try to sell it
> in March/April/Whenever when demand for it will be much less.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ian
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:25:22 -0500, "Christopher Earl"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My GTA01 will be for sale soon, I know there is no official date for the
> > GTA02 but if i can get an unofficial answer from an official source on
> if
> > it looks good or bad for march, same for April. This will dictate when
> my
> > Neo gets listed
> >
>  Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/19/08 6:42 PM >>>
> > Yes, that too. I agree that this would be a completely appropriate item
> > to post to the community list. I'm suggesting the wiki page in addition,
> > and I think having your eBay listing listed on the wiki suggests that
> > you are a member of the community, and not some random outsider
> > (although hard to imagine any of them having a Neo :-)
> >
> > Ortwin Regel wrote:
> >> Wiki pages are nice but they are not really a good way to push info to
> >> people as you would like to do if you have just put your phone on ebay
> >> for sale. If I decided to sell my phone, I'd probably send a message
> >> to the community mailing list. Is this wanted or would anyone be
> >> annoyed by it? I'm not really sure but it would probably be the most
> >> effective way to find a buyer for your phone.
> >>
> >> Ortwin
> >>
> >> On 2/19/08, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> Thanks everyone for your feedback. As a number of you pointed out,
> > there
> >>> is no security in a contact you've made via a random web page, while
> >>> eBay has a whole system in place to provide exactly the needed
> > security.
> >>>
> >>> I think it makes perfect sense to use eBay.
> >>>
> >>> However, I propose we use our wiki page to point at such eBay
> listings,
> >>> in case anyone has difficulty finding them on eBay.
> >>>
> >>> So, I propose we re-purpose our wiki page to indicate eBay listings,
> >>> perhaps sorted simply into "BUYING" and "SELLING".
> >>>
> >>> Sound like a plan?
> >>>
> >>> I thank you all for your input.
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>> Michael Shiloh wrote:
>  Hi Community,
> 
>  I need your help.
> 
>  Having completely sold out of GTA01, we are still getting a large
> > number
>  of requests for them.
> 
>  On the other hand, many of you intend to purchase a GTA02 and perhaps
>  feel you have no use for your GTA01.
> 
>  Some of you might have other reasons to sell your GTA01.
> 
>  I'd like a wiki page to allow these buyers and sellers to find each
> > other.
> 
>  We have a wiki page for GTA01 owners who lived in 850 MHz-only areas
> > to
>  sell their units; perhaps this page can be repurposed for this
> broader
>  issue.
> 
>  Perhaps we call this the OpenMoko flea market.
> 
>  Anyone?
> 
>  Michael
> 
>  ___
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> 
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

[Kyle Bassett]

Is this smart battery (internal circuitry+cell) custom via OM, or third
party?


On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Wolfgang Spraul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Andy -
>
> > class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it
> > will
> > ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
> > availability and so on, but I hope it will.)
>
> Yes, I think we can confirm that every GTA02 will ship with this new
> 'smart' battery.
> There are more steps to go through internally, related to
> certification, some sort of calibration. Tony, do you know more details?
> The cell's capacity will increase slightly to 1250 mAh (before was
> 1200 mAh).
> I am trying to release the schematics for the small PCB inside the
> smart battery as well, will be posted to the wiki.
>
> Wolfgang
>
> On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:43 AM, Andy Green wrote:
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Somebody in the thread at some point said:
> >> On Thursday, Feb 14, 2008, "Kyle Bassett" writes:
> >>> There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal
> >>> devices
> >>> (wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may
> >>> not want
> >>> certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
> >>> duration).
> >>
> >> Indeed, this along with good realtime stats on power usage and
> >> current
> >> battery level would let people have reasonably accurate predictions
> >> of
> >> their battery life.  It'd be interesting (to me at least) to turn
> >> on and off the various peripherals and watch my projected battery
> >> life
> >> go up and down accordingly.
> >
> > GTA02 is capable to dialogue with a "smart battery" that will allow
> > you
> > to see the battery actual voltage and current flow (together: actual
> > power) in uA down /sys in realtime, it uses the linux "Power Supply"
> > class to expose it so it is generic.  (I don't know for sure if it
> > will
> > ship with such a battery since it is decided in .tw according to
> > availability and so on, but I hope it will.)
> >
> > The battery itself learns its cell performance over load and also
> > makes
> > available its "time to full/empty" estimate down /sys as well in
> > seconds.  You can see what data is available here:
> >
> > http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/bq27000
> >
> > You can see stuff like this
> >
> > for i in capacity charge_full current_now present status technology
> > temp
> > time_to_empty_now time_to_full_now type voltage_now ; do echo -n "$i
> > " ; cat /sys/devices/platform/bq27000-battery.0/power_supply/bat/
> > $i ; done
> >
> > capacity0
> > charge_full1215585
> > current_now183375
> > present1
> > statusDischarging
> > technologyLi-ion
> > temp276
> > time_to_empty_now0
> > time_to_full_now3932100
> > typeBattery
> > voltage_now2761000
> >
> > - -Andy
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> >
> > iD8DBQFHtG+yOjLpvpq7dMoRAq2TAJoCYOC+PD3gj/jRMpOPnBL5MZJkzQCfTJn4
> > 9ebCrbNjtGtDMBsJuUXZ8HY=
> > =ANtG
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

[Kyle Bassett]

For reference, the numbers I came up with are for absolute minimum power
usage for GTA02.  These figures are still *very* preliminary, but I wanted
to convey the success of the last few weeks.  We should probably expect a
standby time closer to ~7 days, that way any improvement over this runtime
will be to our benefit.  As we all know, no lab environment or test bench
can account for all of the scenarios in the real world, making it very
difficult to approach "perfect world" operation.

-Kyle



On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 6:32 AM, joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Am Do  14. Februar 2008 schrieb Kyle Bassett:
> > I have been following the "Suspended Mode" thread in the kernel ML and
> they
> > have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5 currently
> > stands, a "cold" suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting incoming
> > call/sms), could result in >20 days of standby!
> >
> > For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in
> suspend
> > using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will have a
> 1200mAh
> > battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect world.
>
> No! Even in a "perfect world", GSM-BS is telling to MS a T321-timecycle to
> reregister. So you have to add to this figure some seconds of full
> TX-power
> consumption e.g. every 40min. (put any cellphone near a walkman for some
> hours, and you may hear...)
> Please note that these things a controlled by BaseStation and dependent of
> current RF-quality (at least for MS-TX power), so you hardly will get
> reproduceable values with a simple test "on desktop".
>
>
>
> Is there a RTC-Alarm in GTA02, to schedule the cron-jobs mentioned
> up-topic?
>
> cheers
> j
>
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Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)

[Kyle Bassett]

I have been following the "Suspended Mode" thread in the kernel ML and they
have made amazing progress within the last week.  As GTA02A5 currently
stands, a "cold" suspend mode (just GSM in standby awaiting incoming
call/sms), could result in >20 days of standby!

For those technical people on this list, they have gotten GTA02A5 in suspend
using ~2.07mA @ 3.7v (fully charged batt).  If the GTA02 will have a 1200mAh
battery, that's ~24 days of suspend runtime in a perfect world.  The goal is
set around 1mA-2mA of suspend current draw, with best case scenario suspend
time of ~50 days (sure beats 4 hours... :-P  ).  There are also issues such
as internal battery discharge, ~30% over 90 days for one of the packs that
is being considered, which will reduce the final suspend runtime available.

Currently, work continues attempting to shave even more power consumption
from a sleeping Freerunner.  Individual power consumption of the different
internal devices is still taking place, that way any user can approximate
their battery lifetime (but each internal device has a few different states,
making this a tedious task).  In the very near future, we should see some
numbers coming in about the "talk" runtime, once some GSM power state issues
are resolved.

There is talk about pushing startup power control of the internal devices
(wifi, bt, gps, mmc, etc.) to user level, as every user may or may not want
certain devices available at bootup/all the time (availability vs.
duration).

It's nice to have some good news, everyone keep up the good work!

-Kyle



On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
>
> Nick Guenther wrote:
> > On Feb 8, 2008 4:04 AM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I've researched this a little, and this is what I've learned:
> >>
> >> 1. We are still looking at a number of different batteries, so there is
> >> no "final" capacity or feature set determined yet.
> >>
> >> 2. The capacity will most likely be around 1200mA.
> >>
> >> If you find any place on the wiki that says something other than
> 1200mA,
> >> can you please make the correction? You may reference this email.
> >
> > Oh. That's... really disappointing. The battery life is already
> > unusable, and the faster processor and wifi will just make this even
> > worse.
>
>
> We are well aware of software changes we need to make in order to
> improve battery and have simply not had the time to do this. You can
> expect much better battery life when we implement these changes.
>
> In fact if you look in the archives of the kernel mailing list you will
> see that a tremendous amount of progress has happened over the past few
> days. I think the current SVN code supports a much improved suspend mode
> that my very simple testing suggests should last for well over 12 hours.
> And work continues.
>
> Michael
>
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Re: OWFS on $WRT-router

[Kyle Bassett]

Chris,

I understand you had posted to the incorrect mailing list, but your question
intrigued me.  The first link in the question does not work, is that the
correct link?

And for a UART, you definitely need level shifting (ie. like a MAX232, etc.)
if connecting to +/-12v serial line, at the very least to avoid damaging the
UART by overvoltage.  In some cases, it is possible to do w/o the level
shifting, due to the requirements in the RS-232 specs for the RX line of
most UARTs, which are required to distinguish signals as low as +/-3v.
Results are varied, as not every manu. follows the specs. verbatim.

-Kyle Bassett


On Feb 3, 2008 6:11 PM, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I tried this: http://owfs.sourceforge.net/WRT54G.html and it doesn't
> work for me.
>
> It looks really weird how the author connected the DS2480B, which runs
> at 5V directly to the UART, which provides only 3.3V. I think this would
> need some level-shifting.
> The datasheet also says the POL-Pin (Pin6) has to be tied to +5V if
> directly connected to the UART.
>
> I made a small schematic with some resistors as level shifters:
> http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4611/ds2480bwrtmp0.png but I don't
> think I like it. It's said that doing level shifting is very power hungry.
>
> Any better ideas?
>
> -Chris
>
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Re: Neo1973 GSM power consumption

[Kyle Bassett]

Hi Ian,

Could you define "direct"?  Thanks, just curious how you powered the module
by itself.

-Kyle


On Dec 3, 2007 4:06 PM, Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Erland Lewin wrote:
> > Hello Speedevil (copying the neo1973-hardware list),
> >
> > I saw that you edited the numbers for the Neo1973 GSM module consumption
> > in the OpenMoko Wiki in September
> > (
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management&diff=19035&oldid=19034
> ).
> >
> >
> > Where did you get the numbers, such as 45 mW for "idle, but connected to
> > network"? According to recent e-mails on the neo1973-hardware mailing
> > list, that is about 5 times higher than other phones.
>
> Yes, it is.
> Direct measurement of battery current.
>
>
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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Kyle Bassett]

what a great way to:

a-learn morse code
b-bring it back in style!

-Kyle

On Dec 3, 2007 1:01 PM, Tim Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Oh yeah, you could totally do it in morse code, which would be faster then
> if you actually sent bits represented by vibrations.
>
> On Dec 3, 2007 11:51 AM, Ortwin Regel < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2007 4:35 AM, Nkoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 30, 2007 3:34 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if
> > > > both
> > > > phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might
> > > > provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike
> > > > exchanging
> > > > an encryption key.
> > > >
> > > > So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo
> > > > user, the two phones are shaken together until the software
> > > > indicates
> > > > that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been
> > > > recognized on the other.
> > > >
> > > > Once this has been established, they can exchange one of the
> > > > standard
> > > > encryption keys.
> > > >
> > > > All without pressing a single key, and without danger of exposing
> > > > anything to other Neo or bluetooth devices within range.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > You mean... like this...
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktJC0S4_X58
> > >
> > >
> > An interesting (though probably not as useful and secure) variation
> > could be to stack the phones on top of each other and have one phone send a
> > vibration pattern to the other. One could even exchange data that way at
> > very very low speeds... B)
> >
> > Ortwin Regel
> >
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[topic-shift] copyrighting/copylefting/patenting hardware and software

[Kyle Bassett]

For those of us talking in the "need someone to develop this" thread, we
should move further discussion here.

-Kyle
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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Kyle Bassett]

ok-for hardware and software concerns, how can we donate an idea to the
public, to guarantee the inability of someone patenting the idea?

Something above just mentioning it on a public/mediated ml.

In addition, could you publicly state your idea to "timestamp" it for
patenting?

-Kyle


On Dec 3, 2007 4:49 AM, Al Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Remember this varies with national legislation. In the UK there is AFAIK
> no 1
> year grace period; public disclosure instantly renders the invention
> unpatentable.
>
> On Sunday 02 December 2007, Clayton Jones wrote:
> > Just a quick note based on all the patent research i've done:
> > Any disclosure in a public forum, whether limited in distribution or
> > not, is considered "public disclosure".  As a matter of fact, telling
> > anyone your idea (other than the people who are co-inventors) is
> > considered "public disclosure".
> > However, that does NOT preclude you from filing a patent - all it does
> > is limit the amount of time you have to file a patent.
> > Once public disclosure is made, you have 1 year to file an application
> > with the US Patent office.  After that, it's considered that you've
> > given up any rights to patent.
> >
> > However, in practical terms it's more difficult to prove original
> > invention once disclosure is made unles you keep a detailed, dated
> > notebook (in ink).
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2007 12:23 PM, Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Saturday 01 December 2007 08:34:08 GWMobile wrote:
> > > > I don't think discussing this here would be considered an open
> > > > disclosure.
> > > > Talking on a finite list or limited membership with moderation and
> thus
> > > > controlled membership is not necessarily open disclosure and not the
> > > > same as a public printing therefore I think it would still be
> > > > patentable.
> > >
> > > You are aware that most mailing lists are archived and indexed by
> Google,
> > > aren't you?
> > >
> > > By every sane meaning of "public", this is public.
> > >
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Re: Example of accelerometers utility

[Kyle Bassett]

I think the largest issue with a motion sensing algorithm would be human
reproducibility.  I feel the precision of our movement ability is less than
the precision of the device/possible code.  If the code is only designed to
pick up direction and not magnitude, then reliability (of valid person
authenticating correctly) would increase.

-Kyle


On Dec 2, 2007 10:42 AM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Here is a video which shows some applications for accelerometers in a
> current phone use:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWc-j4Xs5_w
>
> There is for example :
>
> - battery level
> - different tone for received msg (accelerometers make sense cause if you
> are in reunion/course/whatever, the phone shouldn't be moving, unlike if you
> are walking/moving, most of time any noise should be acceptable)
>
> ideas :
>
> There is already some different way to login, (gps coord) login/pwd...,
> why not a code based on accelerometers :)
> I mean for example, two at left, one at right, one bottom, one behind...
>
> It could be a 3D code...
>
> --
> Steven Le Roux
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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Re: Community Update

[Kyle Bassett]

Curiosity prevails:

I do see a few benefits to a device which is just a GPS radio, like what Ian
has stated.  Would their be any legal ramifications to a reverse-engineered
open source binary interpreter for the GPS radio?  I saw a few people
mention government concerns with having access to a very accurate GPS
device, but what about Global Locate's license agreement (if any) by using
their hardware?  I think a "GPS radio" would make an excellent open source
project; allowing access to the specifics of GPS (theory) not available with
closed firmware.

I wouldn't mind working on this project.

-Kyle

On Nov 29, 2007 9:46 PM, Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Doug Sutherland wrote:
> > Mikko wrote:
> >> 2) Yes, it can make sense not to have a bazillion CPUs on board from
> >> various perspectives.
> >
> > I evaluated no less than 25 different GPS modules some years ago
> > and compared them in all important aspects. Every single one had
> > a microcontroller onboard. I do not agree that it makes any sense
> > at all not to choose one of these types. They are down to the size
> > of a thumbnail almost. Is the microcontroller a CPU, technically
> > yes, but it's part of the receiver, and you want to do all this fancy
> > GUI and not suck the life of the battery from ARM9 usage. It is
> > a good thing they ditched that GPS. It is now standard that any
> > GPS module does have a microcontroller inside, most commonly
> > some variant of ARM7, super low power, you never deal with
> > any firmware.
>
> (sorry for the late response)
>
> To clarify why it might be nice - yes there are simplicity benefits
> from just using a GPS with a NMEA output (or at least with that as an
> option)
>
> If the existing hardware had an open-source driver (there was some
> progress towards such, but this has stalled since it was announced it
> would not be used in GTA02) then many of these objections go away.
>
> The following is based on preliminary work that has not been completed,
> and due to the lack of work on the current GPS may never be.
>
> The device is basically only a software radio, that does the absolute
> minimum to enable the host to avoid having to do hard-real time stuff,
> 115200 baud serial is just fine.
> As I understand it, the following things are possible, which are
> difficult to do with 'normal' chipsets.
>
> Wakeup once every 3 minutes for 1s, to maintain lock on satellites,
> keeping a reasonable (say 50m) position accuracy, with the GPS totally
> off in the interim. This (with the mobile phone part off) uses a very
> small amount of power, enough to track for around 8 months.
>
> Logging all parameters of the signal that the chip measures in hardware,
>  so that the track can be post-processed for better accuracy.
>
> The option of delaying the output of the signal by 10s+, and being able
> to smooth the output based on the 'future' movement, not just the past.
> (this can dramatically improve tracks round sharp corners)
>
> Being able to feed in information from the accelerometers to go into the
> position solution. (this is mainly useful in cars - the accels give you
> good turn rate info)
>
> Using even 'failed' GPS satellites as position sources, with the aid of
>  AGPS (however, this is unlikely to be of use unless the GPS system
> stops being maintained)
>
> Easy tradeoffs between output noise and update frequency - few devices
> support updates faster than 1Hz.
>
> User-provided AGPS correction information.
>
>
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Re: GPS driver for GTA01 available

[Kyle Bassett]

awesome!  thanks guys!

-Kyle

On Nov 29, 2007 3:25 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thanks to a tremendous amount of hard work by many people, we have ready
> a release of gllin, the GPS drives. Here is how you can get it:
>
>
> 1. Visit http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/
>
> Enter the gllin directory and accept the EULA
>
> 2. Download and install gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk to Neo,
> something like:
>
>scp  gllin_1.0+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/tmp/
>ssh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>cd /tmp
>ipkg install gllin_1.0\+r350-r0_fic-gta01.ipk
>
> 3. On Neo:
>
>cd /home/root/gllin
>./gllin
>
> 4. In another shell,
>
>cat /tmp/nmeaP
>
> you should see the NMEA data coming in now, something like this:
>
> $GPGGA,235946.99,00,00,5.0,,M,0.0001999,M,0.0020199,*57
> $GPRMC,235946.99,V,,,120180,,,N*78
> $GPGSA,A,1,11.2,5.0,10.0*36
> $PGLOR,IGR,81.2,7,71397,0,1*02
> $GPGGA,235946.99,00,00,5.0,,M,0.0001999,M,0.0020199,*57
> $GPRMC,235946.99,V,,,120180,,,N*78
> $GPGSA,A,1,11.2,5.0,10.0*36
> $GPGGA,235946.99,00,00,5.0,,M,0.0001999,M,0.0020199,*57
>
> After a while you should get a fix, and then it looks like this:
>
> $GPGGA,194851.00,3746.451804,N,12230.144387,W,1,04,0.5,029.0,M,0.053001,M,
> 0.0090515,*50
> $GPRMC,194851.00,A,3746.451804,N,12230.144387,W,000.0,300.0,291107,,,A*46
> $GPGSV,2,1,07,04,60,088,32,09,59,256,21,02,54,168,34,12,38,310,33*78
> $GPGSV,2,2,07,17,25,056,,05,21,306,,28,08,110,*4D
> $GPGSA,A,3,02,04,09,12,1.1,0.5,1.0*3A
> $PGLOR,FIX,1.0,ST,U,NS,A,DR,N,PS,A*2A
>
> Note that the GPGSA line changed from A,1 to A,3. That shows that you
> now have a fix.
>
> Your location will be in the first line (GPGGA). In the sample above,
> I'm at
>
>37 degrees 46.451804 minutes North
>122 degrees 30.144387 minutes west
>
> Which is correct for me.
>
>
> Have fun!
>
> Regards,
> Michael
>
>
>
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Re: Harald "LaF0rge" Welte: Leaving OpenMoko...

[Kyle Bassett]

as the shit starts to hit the fan...

On Nov 16, 2007 8:20 AM, Javi Roman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2007 12:52 PM, Bartlomiej Zdanowski [Zdanek]
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >  Sad news. It is bad news for OM Community but personally I understand move
> > like this. Best regards for Harald.
> >
> >  http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/11/16/#20071116-leaving_openmoko
> >
> >  Best regards.
> >
>
>
> "...internal friction"
>
> weird news, ..., hmmm, what's going on in OpenMoko/FIC?
>
> goog luck Harald!
>
>   -Javi
>
>
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Re: Gphone isn't open, linux dev not possible

[Kyle Bassett]

See, we all think M$ sucks and Google rocks, but we have to remember
they are still a business.  If M$ wasn't doing such a poor job, then
Google may not be so highly regarded today.

OpenMoko all the way!

-Kyle

On Nov 13, 2007 9:51 PM, Doug Sutherland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah it seems like this Android is for phone companies,
> or that's google's current "spaghetti on the wall" idea.
> Even if it sticks, if they're just trying to make it some
> "standard" for "companies", what will that buy the
> techie user? Nada. I'm finding it hard to motivate myself
> to even look at the SDK. Still skeptical, I have seen so
> many "toolkits". Just what I need another SDK hehe.
> Reminds me of IBM "alpha works". Don't get too
> excited until it actually becomes a product and you
> understand what any licensing and distribution
> restrictions there are.
>
>   -- Doug
>
>
> Bill Cox wrote:
> > unless you're a "alliance member"
>
>
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Re: Some ideas for the accelerometer

[Kyle Bassett]

The GPS should help with that...

On 10/15/07, Kero van Gelder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > But not while walking... Differentiating between motions and situations
> will
> > be a big challenge.
>
> Once my Neo knows how I walk, it can detect that I am walking and subtract
> the walking
> pattern from the accelero data. Remaining data contains noise from walking
> (hopefully noisy enough to go undetected) and other signals (including
> signals with lower amplitude than the walking pattern).
>
> Should be workable, though there may be funny effects when I start or stop
> walking :)
>
> Bye,
> Kero.
>
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Re: Some ideas for the accelerometer

[Kyle Bassett]

I think the idea is great... I've designed a few control systems using
accelerometers to time the ejection of parachutes on MPRs/HPRs (Medium/High
Power Rockets).  The biggest issue is how to interpret the data.

One of the largest problems we've had to overcome with accelerometers is
averaging the input data over the right time interval.  Too short of an
interval and the jitter effect drowns out any useful data. Too long, and
detecting any useful pulses is attenuated.  An algorithm that varied that
time interval would probably prove most useful.

I am particularly interested in the scrolling function, possibly using a
[tap].  You could [tap] right above the top of the lcd module or right below
it, and depending on the program, it would scroll up or down.  This could
easily be picked up using the accelerometers since the phone is so light, an
acceleration "peak" is easily attained (and I'm only thinking 2D here,
there's a huge amount of information coming in with 2x3D accelerometers).
This would even work while walking or running, because those would register
as "curves" more than a specific peak.  (The algorithm could use the GPS
data to detect walking and attenuate accordingly.)

Do we know the exact accelerometer being used in GTA02 yet?  I could do a
comparison using the accelerometers I have lying around.

@Dean Collins, The IBM Hard Drive knock application is an excellent example
of using this type of input.


-Kyle



On 10/15/07, Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:57:52 +0200, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It's also important to remember that the motion of picking up your phone
> > should not lead to denial of the call... ;)
>
> The initial proposal mentioned muting the ringer, not denying the phone.
> It's perfectly OK to mute the ringer if you're already taking the phone to
> your ear.
>
>
> --
> Alexey Feldgendler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
>
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Re: application idea -- anti theft system

[Kyle Bassett]

you prolly want to lock down the uboot screen, etc. to prevent the phone
from just being re-imaged.  It would prolly require the debug board if you
forgot the password.

-Kyle

On 10/14/07, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Steve wrote:
>
> > You may want to do the opposite.  Your phone may think it's being stolen
> > if you happen to get on something like a wireless connection with
> > NoCatSplash. (Which hijacks the first attempt to grab a web page in
> > order to show you a welcome page.)
> >
> > I'd be tempted to have PGP signed stolen/not stolen pages to alleviate
> > any ambiguity.  Failure to retrieve either would just be ignored.
>
> Better yet, have the phone activate a Servlet or CGI that saves the IP
> address from the request (and pass the GPS info if the device has a fix)
> every so often? On a Laptop you'd do this at bootup time + 15m (to give
> the thief time to get past the NoCatSplash or its equivalents. On a
> Phone, maybe once an hour out of cron?
>
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Re: UI responsiveness, Hope its not like new Blackberry

[Kyle Bassett]

I agree.  Palm OS experiences the same kind of lag in certain cases.

On 10/3/07, Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Recently tried out the new Blackberry 8300, that a customer had
> purchased, and I almost wanted to throw it in the bin, but of course it
> was not mine. When you roll the ball there is about a quarter second
> delay before the indicator moves to the next icon, which means it hard
> to move to an icon quickly like in Marble Madness. Now I don't know if
> it is just me, but I just could not get used to that. Maybe it is
> because I am used to playing video games but if a Spectrum could do it
> at 3.5MHz then I dont see why an 8300 cant do it at 312MHz.
> So, I was just hoping that the OpenMoko UI will at least have an
> instant response, even if this means you have to put up an egg timer to
> say that the system is busy and cannot respond straight away.
>
> Michael.
>
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Re: emergency alarm for openmoko

[Kyle Bassett]

I love the idea, just (here's the real reason why I love open source!) not
send to emergency services.  Pick a relative or co-worker to send to...hell
maybe even an auto-email system that will parse the message.  Anything is
possible!

-Kyle

On 10/3/07, Doug Sutherland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Better check the legalities of auto sending anything to emergency
> services. Due to instances of false alarms, this is not legal in many
> places, and/or can involve large fines. This is true even of home
> fire and security alarm systems. If you have false alarms and a
> system that reports to emergency services, you can be fined
> heavily. The idea of alarm function is not bad. The idea of any
> messaging to emergency services is very bad.
>
>
> > configured to send a message to the emergency services
>
>
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Re: ATI to provide specs (was: Re: SMedia 3362)

[Kyle Bassett]

On 9/10/07, Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 10:23:26AM -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> > On 9/6/07, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > It may be worth talking with ATI again.  Since this announcement, I
> > > don't think it is too far fetched to at least get the same deal you
> > > currently have with SMedia.  I wouldn't be surprised if the people you
> > > were talking to had no idea this sort of thing was being planned.  ATI
> > > may even allow the release documentation at some point in the future.
> >
> > Or just use it for leverage to get more from SMedia.
>
> guys, as I indicated before, we already have the best possible support
> from Smedia.  Not only have we some promises or statements, but we
> actually have signed a contract with them, binding them to support us
> to the utmost level.


This is excellent!


As indicated previously, this agreement includes a statement that
> OpenMoko will work on to-be-publicized documentation on the SMedia chip,
> which will be jointly released at some point.


First, I believe we need a working implementation, then a (very) rough draft
of the docs released in the near future for the community.  The docs don't
have to be "stable" per se, if we can gain access sooner.  But this all
depends on the agreement between OM/SMedia.

SMedia, I give you guys a lot of credit for taking a stand and provding open
documentation.


So what exactly is not enough?  You will get 100% free software drivers,
> down to the latest bit, no proprietary firmware whatsoever, plus
> hardware documentation that will be prepared by OpenMoko ?



did I... read that correctly?  :)

Which part exactly are you missing?  That there are no docs now?  Well,
> there is no GTA02 hardware being shipped now either!  And if the
> community rather wants us to finish the documentation first, and then
> write the driver: Please let us know.  Do you really prefer to get a
> device that does not have any working driver at all, but with a
> thousand-page manual (rather than the other way around: first have FOSS
> Drivers, and then get the docs as soon as our incredibly small team
> finds time to do so)?


I think the best scenario would be to get the (simple/barebones?)
driver/framework done, and release alpha docs if the situation allows.


Wrt: ATI/AMD Imageon:
>
> ATI's mobile processor diivsion is completely independent from their
> desktop graphics.  It has totally different architecture, and the recent
> announcement by their desktop group doesn't have any maning about the
> mobile group.
>
> Also, ATI's mobile graphics are entirely focused on 2d and codec, plus
> they are 100% firmware based.   So that means no 3D acceleration, and
> even if somebody ever was to write FOSS drivers, lots of code is hidden
> in the GPU firmware, rather than in those FOSS drivers.
>
> What I personally don't understand about this entire debate on our
> community list:  You have very prominent people of the FOSS movement,
> particularly the Linux community in this project.  Notably Werner and
> myself.  Given my track history of clinging to every last word of the
> GPL, and my stance with regard to binary-only drivers or other
> abominations of the hardware industry:  Why don't you trust us to do
> proper research and chose the vendor that works best for us, given all
> the circumstances?



I think we all don't want to see this little FOSS flame be extinguished, and
that may have a lot to do with why the OM community is so concerned with all
the details, down to the vendors.  We should probably take a step back and
let OM handle those details.  There is a line where the community should end
and OpenMoko begin.  This (now unknown) line will need tweaking.

I place a large amount of trust in the OM Team, as they are geeks just like
us.

For those in the community unfamiliar with the "very prominent people"
within OM, google some of their names; you might be surprised.  :)


Do you think we would be foolish enough not to talk to all vendors of
> the respective components?  I really feel personally very sad that
> anyone believes that I am in this project for anything else then to
> provide the highest level of freedom for both hardware and software that
> is possible.
>
> In GTA01, the only freedom related issue that we have is the Global
> Locate (now Broadcom).  Given the start of OpenMoko (alternative
> software for a Windows smartphone that FIC was building) we didn't have
> any influence on that one.   We have been trying hard to achieve a
> compromise with GL on the level of freedom that they're willing to
> provide.  Unfortunately that compromise falls short of what many people
> in the FOSS community, including myself, deem acceptable.
>
> For GTA02, we evaluated all different A-GPS solutions on the market, and
> we took two of those actually in production.  The graphics chip we ship
> will have FOSS drivers.  We're working with NXP on publishing an open
> user manual for the P

Re: Debug Board JTAG Programming with openocd

[Kyle Bassett]

-Update:
I guess the debug board charges the batteries, because I checked the voltage
after typing the previous email and it's ~3.29v.  I still cannot get the Neo
to turn on though...

-Kyle

On 8/14/07, Kyle Bassett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have been unable to coerce my Neo to charge batteries, so I have a
> feeling it has to do with the uboot image I flashed.  Should I manually
> charge the batteries some other way? or continue trying to reflash the
> original uboot revision?  (Can you even use the debug board if the battery
> is dead?)
>
> My current uboot revision:
> u-boot-gta01bv4-r11_e80955f07de03fef0196353e77534b2300193c1c_0_2348.bin
>
> What I am trying to do right now is get up and running with openocd, but I
> cannot get around this one error:
>
> # openocd -f /etc/openocd/openocd.cfg
> Info:openocd.c:84 main(): Open On-Chip Debugger (2007-01-31 12:00 CET)
> Error:   jtag.c:1181 jtag_examine_chain(): JTAG communication failure,
> check connection, JTAG interface, target power etc.
>
> I know this means that it has found the debug board, but I am unsure what
> I should do to initialize the phone.  (Simple as power?)
>
> I have my Neo wired up to the debug board, (2.7v) dead battery inside.
>
>
>
> Here are the steps I used to get where I am on Debian Etch:
>
> -
> moved 099_neo1973_debugboard.rules to /etc/udev/rules.d
>
> compiled/installed libusb-0.1.12
> compiled/installed libftdi-0.10
>
> add file usr-lib.conf to /etc/ld.so.conf.d/
> insert line /usr/local/lib
> run ldconfig
>
>
> compiled/installed openocd from svn:
> svn co -r 137 http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/openocd/trunkopenocd_137
> ./bootstrap
> ./configure --enable-parport_ppdev --enable-ft2232_libftdi
> make; su; make install
>
>
> made /etc/openocd/openocd.cfg with:
> telnet_port 
> gdb_port 
> interface ft2232
> jtag_speed 0
> ft2232_vid_pid 0x1457 0x5118
> ft2232_layout "jtagkey"
> reset_config trst_and_srst
> jtag_device 4 0x1 0xf 0xe
> daemon_startup attach
> target arm920t little reset_run 0 arm920t
> working_area 0 0x20 0x4000 backup
> run_and_halt_time 0 5000
> ft2232_device_desc "Debug Board for Neo1973"
>
>
> -
>
> Some information I grabbed from here:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenOCD#OpenOCD_and_Debug_Board
> http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/notes/openocd
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>
>
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Debug Board JTAG Programming with openocd

[Kyle Bassett]

I have been unable to coerce my Neo to charge batteries, so I have a feeling
it has to do with the uboot image I flashed.  Should I manually charge the
batteries some other way? or continue trying to reflash the original uboot
revision?  (Can you even use the debug board if the battery is dead?)

My current uboot revision:
u-boot-gta01bv4-r11_e80955f07de03fef0196353e77534b2300193c1c_0_2348.bin

What I am trying to do right now is get up and running with openocd, but I
cannot get around this one error:

# openocd -f /etc/openocd/openocd.cfg
Info:openocd.c:84 main(): Open On-Chip Debugger (2007-01-31 12:00 CET)
Error:   jtag.c:1181 jtag_examine_chain(): JTAG communication failure, check
connection, JTAG interface, target power etc.

I know this means that it has found the debug board, but I am unsure what I
should do to initialize the phone.  (Simple as power?)

I have my Neo wired up to the debug board, (2.7v) dead battery inside.



Here are the steps I used to get where I am on Debian Etch:
-
moved 099_neo1973_debugboard.rules to /etc/udev/rules.d

compiled/installed libusb-0.1.12
compiled/installed libftdi-0.10

add file usr-lib.conf to /etc/ld.so.conf.d/
insert line /usr/local/lib
run ldconfig


compiled/installed openocd from svn:
svn co -r 137 http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/openocd/trunk openocd_137
./bootstrap
./configure --enable-parport_ppdev --enable-ft2232_libftdi
make; su; make install


made /etc/openocd/openocd.cfg with:
telnet_port 
gdb_port 
interface ft2232
jtag_speed 0
ft2232_vid_pid 0x1457 0x5118
ft2232_layout "jtagkey"
reset_config trst_and_srst
jtag_device 4 0x1 0xf 0xe
daemon_startup attach
target arm920t little reset_run 0 arm920t
working_area 0 0x20 0x4000 backup
run_and_halt_time 0 5000
ft2232_device_desc "Debug Board for Neo1973"

-

Some information I grabbed from here:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenOCD#OpenOCD_and_Debug_Board
http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/notes/openocd


Thanks,

Kyle
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Isn't this a little early?

[Kyle Bassett]

I'm surprised what I came across this evening:

http://macenstein.com/default/archives/757/ Post #7

I was doing my usual digg run when I stumbled upon user "Steve" and his
signature link.


http://www.freeopenmoko.com/


-Kyle
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Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception

[Kyle Bassett]

Having my own business, I can begin to understand the position of FIC and
their small team trying to process a seemingly endless list of emails on top
of processing the standard orders.  They don't have "fringe" departments, or
employees for that matter.  No one to sit down and just politely respond to
order inquires all day, every day.  They are overworked, strained, crazy
(just like all of us here :)  ) people that love what they do-and will do
whatever they can to help us take back the mobile phone industry.  Frankly,
they deserve one helluva bonus at the end of this year, although they would
probably be happier if a working Neo was in consumers' hands...

Think about it for a second: all of us who are part of an organization that
use email as an official means of communication essentially check/answer our
emails almost every day, and it takes ridiculously long.  How many emails
have _you_ received today from someone asking about an update?

On the other hand, I can understand the gotta-have-it-right-now feeling of
everyone who does not have a Neo.  Many are itching and screaming for their
uber-geek handheld, so an update every other day or so isn't out of the
question.  Andy makes a good point about how some are feeling:


People just want some sort of information or report on what is *generally*
> happening with regard to orders. Indeed, to paraphrase Michael J Fox,:
>
> "...They're so thirsty for it, they'll crawl through the desert toward a
> mirage and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand.."
>
>
>

And, as Harald said, we are all developers (FIC employees included) trying
to work together, so let's try to act as such...
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Re: Sean Moss to speak at LinuxWorld Thursday, August 9, at 11:30

[Kyle Bassett]

I agree with Jeremy.

On 8/7/07, Jeremy G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 8/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > M8:  Panel Discussion: Deploying Linux-based Handsets in the
> Real World
> > 08/09/2007, 11:30 AM - 12:30 PM
> > Moderator:
> > Bill Weinberg, Embedded and Open Source Analyst / Consultant,
> Xandros.
> >
> > Speakers:
> > Sean Moss-Pultz, Product Manager, FIC.
> > John Ellis, Director of Carrier Market Development, Motorola.
> > Brian Coughlin, 4G Product Development, Sprint.
> > Satya Mallya, Director, Personal Sphere, Wireless & Terminals,
> Orange.
> >
> > This panel will bring together handset manufacturers, carriers
> and other
> > mobile ecosystem players to provide perspectives on the emerging
> role of Linux
> > in the mobile marketplace "post platform". In particular, this
> panel will
> > focus on the benefits and challenges of deploying Linux-based
> handsets and
> > rolling out value-added services based upon them.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > OpenMoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
>
> I hope someone is there to record it for those of us who won't be able
> to make the trek to San Fran.
>
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uBoot updates/possible issues

[Kyle Bassett]

I flashed my Neo to this revision:
http://chooseopen.com/openmoko/build/u-boot-gta01bv4-r11_e80955f07de03fef0196353e77534b2300193c1c_0_2348.bin

Some things I have noticed:
a- I no longer have to hold the power button down for >3 secs. to start the
bootloader.  I yet to check the release notes to see if this is a verified
change.(good)
b- My Neo will randomly turn on, and then die before X initializes.  It has
happened twice so far on low battery.  (not so good)

Anyone else with feedback?

-Kyle
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Re: 700 Mhz Spectrum Auction

[Kyle Bassett]

You make such a good point.  Why does a company get to own our airwaves?  It
doesn't make much sense.  Who says it's the government's right to auction
off our airwaves?  Because the companies know how to utilize them better?
Oh yeah, Verizon is great at it...

There is no reason we should have to pay a company to use a cell phone.
Possibly for extraneous services such as faster connections, etc.  I'm just
fed up with it.  I understand paying "rent" for using their towers, but
that's not what's going on here-we are paying to use the frequencies as
well.

(Can you tell my Neo arrived today? heh.)

-Kyle



On 8/1/07, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>
> "Harrison Metzger"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I hope everyone will voice their disappointment to the FCC. I just
> > wrote letters to my sen/rep and the FCC (it felt great lol). ...
>
> I wonder if any pressure can be put on the FCC to reserve some of the
> "public airwaves" for, you know, the public.  The fact that the free
> WIFI spectrum is only large enough to hold 3 non-overlapping channels
> is disgusting.  Here in this part of Fremont, California those
> channels are so overused it is hard to keep a connection for very long
> due to everyone stepping on each other's signals.  Why can't the
> public have free access to a large percentage of the spectrum.  It
> does belong to us right???
>
> I would like to see the public get access to some prime frequencies
> that aren't attenuated by 10db for every tree that the signal goes
> through.  The old TV 700Mhz spectrum would be ideal in this regard.
>
> Of course, this is a pipe dream.  The FCC will sell our airwaves to
> the same folks they always sell our airwaves to -- some oligopoly that
> will make sure the public only gets to use them at 25 cents / minute
> if at all.
>
> -wolfgang
>
>
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700 Mhz Spectrum Auction

[Kyle Bassett]

I am disappointed.  I wanted the FCC to support "open networks" and "open
services" as well.  I really hope Google wins this thing...for the sake of
projects like ours.

In today's society, we are at the mercy of Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, etc. in
terms what we are required to pay for mobile phone and internet access.  I
am not a fan of regulation myself (the reason I support open source
products) but by providing those 4 open requirements, I think it would
really help to cut down on some of these monopolies.

Honestly, I feel it's ridiculous that this "utility" is not better managed.
So many great innovations would come from having an open mobile network
(that does not have a primary objective of making money).


-Kyle


On 8/1/07, Dean Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  The most important meeting probably globally regarding the future of
> wireless communications happened yesterday.
> http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/700-mhz-spectrum-auction.html
>
> Any thoughts in the OpenMoko community?
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dean Collins
> Cognation Pty Ltd
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +1-212-203-4357 Ph
> +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
>
>
>
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Re: Finger Graffiti

[Kyle Bassett]

I think David went about it as well as he could.. although I feel by using
"Graffiti-like" Nkoli did not breach trademark rights, just used it as an
example.  We do need to come up with another name in the near future,
because we cannot release software called Graffiti.

I know most of us are completely against trademarks and patents, but no need
to shoot the messenger.  As Jay said, let's focus on the ideas, and just
watch the terminology...

Kyle


On 7/30/07, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Michael Welter writes:
> >> So, who are they going to sue???
> > Who said anything about a lawsuit?  It is their trademark; stepping on
> > it would be really rude, no matter who they decided to go after as a
> > result.
> >
>
> Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the Graffiti trademark .. can't
> you just overlook this highly dubious legal issue for now and try to
> understand the nature of the point the guy is trying to make - that
> he would like developers to consider adding a symbol-based
> recognition system that would be based on finger movements - and
> leave all the high-falutin' {annoyin'} lawyerin' for the birds ..
>
> Honest, you lawyer types are a pain in the ass.  Nobody needs your
> advice until there's actually something tangible going on.  Right
> now, this is just a *technical* discussion, and its getting killed by
> non-sequitur snipes from highly irrelevant positions.  Leave it out.
> Lets try to allow a little creativity, still, in the world, okay?
>
> ;
>
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Re: Idea for future product...

[Kyle Bassett]

Anyone seeing a USB/CF solution? eh?


On 7/29/07, Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I was thinking of an idea for those who only have the option to use a
> non-gsm phone (i.e., US-based Sprint/Verizon customers).  These
> carriers will only activate devices they sell, but there is a way
> around it.  Most of them market a compact-flash data card which also
> has voice capabilitie, intended for use with a PDA.  So, what if a
> future Neo had a CF slot instead of a gsm module?  Then you can get
> the carrier's CF data/voice card, and plug it in similar to how you
> would use a sim card.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
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Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?

[Kyle Bassett]

...the reason being is that the retail base kit comes with more than just
the phone (battery, headset, cards, etc.).  If all the other factors were
eliminated, what would the final cost be?

I don't believe it being as simple as $450-50.


On 7/29/07, Kyle Bassett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I read what Harald wrote, I wanted to know a few more details than just
> the base price minus the cost of the screen...
>
> thanks
>
> On 7/29/07, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Harald wrote:
> >
> > > So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way.
> > > And
> > > for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem?
> >
> > So, 450 - 50 USD = 400 USD for a kit...
> >
> > Am 29.07.2007 um 21:07 schrieb Kyle Bassett:
> >
> > > I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or
> > > dollar amount) that the GTA02 board "kit" would run compared to the
> > > expected $450 base price?  I do prefer your idea about selling the
> > > GTA01Bv4 instead of upgrading...some people would just rather do it
> > > themselves...bragging rights?  ;)
> >
> >
>
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Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?

[Kyle Bassett]

I read what Harald wrote, I wanted to know a few more details than just the
base price minus the cost of the screen...

thanks

On 7/29/07, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Harald wrote:
>
> > So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way.
> > And
> > for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem?
>
> So, 450 - 50 USD = 400 USD for a kit...
>
> Am 29.07.2007 um 21:07 schrieb Kyle Bassett:
>
> > I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or
> > dollar amount) that the GTA02 board "kit" would run compared to the
> > expected $450 base price?  I do prefer your idea about selling the
> > GTA01Bv4 instead of upgrading...some people would just rather do it
> > themselves...bragging rights?  ;)
>
>
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Re: another GPS idea - speed-sensitive voicemail

[Kyle Bassett]

Mark,

I love the idea!  And maybe a feature like dumping the call to a BT headset
device if present.  I am curious, I assume there would be a config option or
something, because how would it tell if you are the driver?  A preference
per contact could be used as well.  ie.  I don't mind if my family calls me
while driving, but not Joe, Bob, or Steve."

*I hate the fact that I cannot download or save my voicemail messages...  I
cannot with Verizon anyways.  Developing a voicemail utility to save a
voicemail locally when service is available but you are just ignoring calls
would be quite nice.The ability to start recording at any time during a
conversation could be useful as well.

-Kyle


On 7/28/07, Mark Eichin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Use case:
>
>   When I'm walking around, I'll answer the phone.  When I'm driving, I
>   won't (one phonecall == two beers worth of distraction)... but am
>   willing to pull over if the caller thinks it's important enough.
>
>   I shouldn't have to *tell* the phone what mode I'm in: GPS can
>   provide velocity information.  If my speed is over 10mph, the phone
>   should pick up, dump a pre-recorded explanation to the caller, and
>   let them "press 1 to interrupt the driver, or just wait a few
>   seconds and leave voicemail."
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem implies that
> call recording is possible, so the audio paths are there, right?  If
> so, a lot of local voice-robot stuff is possible...
>
> (And if your thought is "what if I'm a passenger" - the answer is
> "this feature is not for you, it's for me" :-)  (Also, if you're not
> an American, this feature probably isn't for you either :-) :-)
>
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Re: GTA02 Board only option in October?

[Kyle Bassett]

Harald,

I am curious, what do you estimate the cost (as a percentage or dollar
amount) that the GTA02 board "kit" would run compared to the expected $450
base price?  I do prefer your idea about selling the GTA01Bv4 instead of
upgrading...some people would just rather do it themselves...bragging
rights?  ;)

Thanks

Kyle


On 7/29/07, Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:12:47AM +0100, Cass, John P wrote:
> > I have a question before I go ahead and order my Neo - there was an
> > earlier discussion about the possibility of getting a GTA02 board in
> > October so we can upgrade our Neos to 02 without having to buy a whole
> > new phone (call it the Philosopher's Neo).
>
> The issue is a bit more difficult.  As of now, the 'board kit' would
> have to be:
>
> 1) the mainboard, including the stacked wifi PCB and the bluetooth FPC
> 2) the translucent buttons (otherwise you won't see the new much-
>requested LED's)
> 3) adhesive rubber between LCM and PCB
> 4) new plastic inset (speaker assembly)
> 5) adhesive shielding tape for LCM-PCB cable
>
> Even then, the assembly steps are not exactly trivial, since you
> * need to remove the LCM from the PCB.  This is glued, and it is quite
>   hard to remove without damaging the LCM, especially the very fragile
>   FPC cable between LCM and PCB
> * need to remove the current white plastic stereo speaker compartment
>   and replace it with the new mono speaker compartment (we had to find
>   space for the wifi somewhere...)
>
> Yes, you could keep the GPS antenna, the plastic case and the LCM.  But
> seriously, if you consider the amount of effort that we have to spend on
> creating a detailed step-by-step guide with photographs on the assembly
> process, plus the inevitable amount of customer support with people who
> think they'd get it done but now can't manage (or actually broke one or
> both of the devices now), I'm not really sure if it makes all that much
> sense.
>
> In the end, all you keep is the LCM.  Yes, it is an expensive LCM.  But
> in the overall picture, that 'mainboard kit' would only be
> insignificantly cheaper than the full GTA02 device.   Oh yes, the case.
> Which costs close to nothing, and your old case might already have some
> scratches at GTA02 release time ;)
>
> So you probably wouldn't save more than USD 50 (maximum) that way.  And
> for that, you have all the risk of some assembly problem?
>
> Thus, my personal conclusion: Isn't it much better to keep the old GTA01
> and sell it to somebody who can't afford a GTA02?
>
> So I don't think we'll have an official upgrade kit.
>
> We will start selling spare parts at some point, though.  The schedule
> is still somewhat unclear.  Maybe there is a chance you can combine your
> kit out of spare parts.  But still, I don't think it makes much sense.
>
> Sorry,
> --
> - Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> http://openmoko.org/
>
> 
> Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone
>
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OpenMoko Forums Update...

[Kyle Bassett]

Hello Everyone,

forums.makeopensource.com is online and running.

For those of you who are unable to use the forums on a consistent basis, I
am actively searching for a solution for integrating the mailing lists,
NNTP, and forums; as one community.

I am setting up a second beta forum that has the ML/NNTP/forum integration
built-in.  Please test the functionality and report back.  I'm curious to
see if this new forum in the solution...

www.makeopensource.com/beta/

beta.makeopensource.com   (awaiting dns propagation)


Thanks!

-Kyle
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Re: Unofficial Forum Details...

[Kyle Bassett]

I have no problem with it, once they support phpBB 3.x

-Kyle

On 7/24/07, Brad Pitcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


How would you feel about installing OpenID support?
http://openid.phpbb.cc/

Kyle Bassett wrote:
> Hello Again,
>
> The forum is now in a usable condition.  Please register and start
> posting!
> If there are any concerns with the layout, please contact me and I
> will try to accommodate...
>
> -Kyle
>
>
>
>
> On 7/24/07, *Kyle Bassett* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have set up the Official Unofficial OpenMoko forum on one of my
> websites.  I will continue to modify the forums as need be.  All
> who would like to utilize the forums are welcome!
>
> Temporary Link, awaiting DNS resolution:
> http://www.makeopensource.com/phpBB3/
>
> Official Link:
> http://forums.makeopensource.com
>
> Please make any recommendations to the layout of the forum to this
> thread.  Anyone that would like to help me administer or moderate
> the forums, please reply!
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kyle
>
>
> 
>
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Re: Unofficial Forum Details...

[Kyle Bassett]

Hello Again,

The forum is now in a usable condition.  Please register and start posting!
If there are any concerns with the layout, please contact me and I will try
to accommodate...

-Kyle




On 7/24/07, Kyle Bassett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hello Everyone,

I have set up the Official Unofficial OpenMoko forum on one of my
websites.  I will continue to modify the forums as need be.  All who would
like to utilize the forums are welcome!

Temporary Link, awaiting DNS resolution:
http://www.makeopensource.com/phpBB3/

Official Link:
http://forums.makeopensource.com

Please make any recommendations to the layout of the forum to this
thread.  Anyone that would like to help me administer or moderate the
forums, please reply!


Thanks!

Kyle

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Unofficial Forum Details...

[Kyle Bassett]

Hello Everyone,

I have set up the Official Unofficial OpenMoko forum on one of my websites.
I will continue to modify the forums as need be.  All who would like to
utilize the forums are welcome!

Temporary Link, awaiting DNS resolution:
http://www.makeopensource.com/phpBB3/

Official Link:
http://forums.makeopensource.com

Please make any recommendations to the layout of the forum to this thread.
Anyone that would like to help me administer or moderate the forums, please
reply!


Thanks!

Kyle
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Kyle Bassett]

Ok,

I set up a temporary forum until the guys @ openmoko get everything sorted
out.  I'm using phpbb.
I think the forums are needed, for many of the reasons described in this
thread.  Primarily, to have another sounding board for new openmoko/neo
users to just communicate, and keep this list cleaner.

I set it up on my hosted domain space...
I need another administrator and moderators,

http://www.makeopensource.com/phpBB3

http://forums.makeopensource.com should resolve by tomorrow.


Thanks,

Kyle





On 7/24/07, Jacques Poulin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Is there a web form to search the mailing lists ?

I didn't find it, and didn't want to ask if that had been asked before,
but since I can't find the search form, well, I'm asking :-)

I prefer forums over lists because forums are a lot less distracting...
but at least when the lists are searchable, there's a way to find the info
you want without wasting hours going through threads...

I mean, I'm getting over 10 digests every day, I can't even begin to
consider being subscribed to this list when the word spreads...

Keep the mailing lists for the developers if you like, but we need a forum
for the users.

 --
 *From:* Daniel Robinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*Sent:* 24 juillet 2007 13:46
*To:* community@lists.openmoko.org
*Subject:* Re: OK, the forum is coming..

The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you
would find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different
forum UIs is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community
to address.

To state, axiomatically,  that mailing lists are more efficient is to
attempt proof by assertion.

The goal is communication, not rightness.  How is communication best
served?

--Dan

On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long time
> email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the "http
> protocol". If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) )
>
> And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are quite
> well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list
> management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same
> behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these
> in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less
> depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists,
> because they use a standard interface.
>
> Navigating 20 different "forums", is not feasible:
>
> - -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be already
> using to read messages.
>
> - -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login
> (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2
> weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest me,
> ...
>
> - -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client.
>
> You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based
> cooking community. Notice: "relative newcomer" (less than a decade
> Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed).
>
> Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on
> newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured
> in units like "transaction" per "time unit". And I can clearly "process"
> (or decide not to "process") more messages per hour in my mailer than
> with my browser)
>
> Andreas
>
> Daniel Robinson wrote:
> > What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than
> theirs
> > is not worthy of consideration?
> >
> > I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email
> because
> > it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and
> forth
> > about this issue.
> >
> > Don't build your house on ice?  This is typical of the dismissiveness
> > with which people have responded about this issue.  The straw man
> being
> > used here, that wanting one position or the other is as meritorious as
> > building one's house on ice, is not valid.  It smacks of sanctimony
> and
> > that should be avoided.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> wrote:
> >
> > > Quite frankly I am completely, totally,
> > > overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums.  Quite a
> few
> > > people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and how
> they
> > were
> > > *very* reluctant (like myself) to join.
> >
> > Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly.
> > That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it
> melts in
> > the spring and your house will fall in.   Don't build your house
> on
> > ice.
> >
> > As for forums, they are very nice for casual use.   They are
> terrible
> > for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively. 

Re: Couple of Questions

[Kyle Bassett]

Since there are no physical case changes, it would be great if they just
offered the board for sale to those that have already purchased the GTA01
kit for a discounted price.  I purchased the Neo Advanced, and I really
can't afford to spend another 400-600+ on the newer version...

Kyle


On 7/23/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On 23 Jul 2007, at 22:46, Donald Organ wrote:

> I am rolling around the idea of purchasing the developer unit, but I
> have a couple of questions:
>
> When the GTA02 unit becomes available will there be and
> upgrade
> price
> to upgrade to the new board?

No upgrade discount, they decided against that. Instead they made the
GTA01 cheaper.

I think you may be able to keep the existing case, battery etc and
get the GTA02 in board only form.


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Re: I got charged ;)

[Kyle Bassett]

My order number is #2081.  I ordered on July 9, 12:37 AM EST (5:37 AM UTC).
I received the YES_I_DO request on July 13, 9:40 PM EST (2:40 AM UTC) .  I
replied with YES_I_DO at  July 13, 9:43 PM EST (2:43 AM UTC) and received
charge confirmation on July 21, 11:52 AM EST (4:52 PM UTC).

Hope this helps guys...

Kyle



On 7/22/07, Myk Melez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Gau, Frank wrote:
> Your credit card has now been charged by the following amount:
> ...
> My Order# 2309
My order number is #1987.  My YES_I_DO request was sent by FIC on
Friday, July 13 at 6:43pm PDT (Saturday, July 14 1:43am UTC).  I
received it at approximately 7:03pm (2:03am) that evening, and I sent a
response at 7:05pm (2:05am).

Did you respond more quickly than I did?  I'm just trying to figure out
the order in which FIC is sending out phones.  Given your much higher
order number, they clearly aren't going by that.

Other possibilities: the order in which YES_I_DO responses were received
(but I responded pretty quickly, so that seems unlikely, unless they
sent YES_I_DO requests out of order), or perhaps they're fulfilling
orders heading overseas first (I live 44 miles/71km away from FIC
America's Fremont location).

-myk


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Re: An idea for an advertisement

[Kyle Bassett]

heh, you are very correct about the contra- argument.  And I was still
trying to keep that to a minimum in my previous post...

I think this "open" discussion it is very much irrational in the core, it

is about an illusion of re-gaining control. That could be an important
(U)SP.



Could you clarify?:
--Define core
--an illusion?
--how is it an important selling point?


Give the Linux-Asterisk-Openoffice-Firefox-Thunderbird - a.s.o. community a

phone with the same philosophy so they can act consistently in their
attitude towards Telco/IT.



What is a.s.o?  Do you mean give
Linux-Asterisk-Openoffice-Firefox-Thunderbird a chance on the mobile
platform just as Word, Excel, Outlook?

And, I think the Neo would make a great IP phone while on a wireless
connection...

We do need to bring some more control back to the consumer's hands.  Give
them more choices.

Thanks!

Kyle Bassett



On 7/22/07, Martin Straub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Kyle Bassett schrieb:

The Neo1973 phone and OpenMoko software are two different solutions. The
Neo is a solution for a closed-hardware phone. As of right now (Phase 1), it
is a developer's phone. Developers do not have to run OpenMoko on it, they
could run whatever piece of software they see fit as long as they write it.
I think the Neo is a gateway, the premiere, for an open-hardware
alternative.

OpenMoko is the solution for a closed-software phone. If someone can get
OpenMoko to run on the device they have, those individuals are free to
develop any software they see fit that will run in the OpenMoko environment.

So, who is our (current) audience? The Neo has a high appeal from the
hardware hackers, the debuggers, the core software programmers, and also
those who want to jump head first into the world of a completely open
system. OpenMoko has appeal from virtually any individual that is aggravated
by the software running on their mobile devices or has a niche need which
currently is not filled, and wants to help fix it.

I think a good example is the Asterisk PBX and Digium relationship. Digium
develops the PBX specific hardware and (linux) drivers, while the Asterisk
community develops the software. Digium wins by selling their hardware, and
the Asterisk community wins by gaining a foothold in the corporate market.
Might be a good idea to keep their relationship in mind...
Both the Neo and OpenMoko provide open access to the hardware and software
of a mobile phone. This open platform gives consumers and developers
rightful access to what they own. I see the Neo as the hacker's iPhone. Did
I dare say it?

As the customer or end-user, this open development platform might seem
similar to Firefox in a way (no bias intended). As a community of users
developing a product everyone can use, from tech-geek to grandma. The
Firefox community also has an extensive library of open source extensions,
and if that type of community could be developed for OpenMoko programs, good
things will happen. :)

Palm has even come to a realization that Linux might have some benefits,
as they are developing (or having developed) a version supporting Palm
devices.

Random thoughts:

--I believe a pre-paid or "open" plan is different than having an "open"
phone. A pre-paid plan means that a user may not have to pay a monthly fee,
but the user still has the "locked" restrictions in place from their
carrier.

--There are still many people who also think that their phone is a
permanent part of their carrier contract.

--Which mobile phone carrier is the lesser of the evils? (I currently have
Verizon, but they don't support GSM.)

As for advertising, the Alltel commercials are appealing, making the other
carriers look hostile just like the Apple commercials make "PC" look
complicated. A humorous spin might be an idea. "You're joking...you have to
BUY a ringtone?!" "You make me laugh... what's all this SEEM editing about
anyways?"

Unique selling point? I don't think there's just one, but if I had to
choose, it would be the guitar pick for the Neo and penguin-in-you-pocket
for OpenMoko.

Now only if we could throw together a NPO for mobile internet/telecom...



IMHO...

Kyle Bassett

Martin may have forced me to write one of my longest responses yet!  ;)

--

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 Wow!

... Neo as the hacker's iPhone .
Well, it pretty much seems to be that right now. Or is it more the
protester's phone ? Is it a contra-provider, contra-incumbent, contra-Apple,
contra Windows  Mobile ?

BTW, in Europe, Austria, you can buy phones that are not locked and not
branded at all (of course they are expensive then because with a contract a
phone costs 0-10 Euro here)
and go to the supermarket and buy a prepaid card. That

Re: An idea for an advertisement

[Kyle Bassett]

The Neo1973 phone and OpenMoko software are two different solutions. The Neo
is a solution for a closed-hardware phone. As of right now (Phase 1), it is
a developer's phone. Developers do not have to run OpenMoko on it, they
could run whatever piece of software they see fit as long as they write it.
I think the Neo is a gateway, the premiere, for an open-hardware
alternative.

OpenMoko is the solution for a closed-software phone. If someone can get
OpenMoko to run on the device they have, those individuals are free to
develop any software they see fit that will run in the OpenMoko environment.

So, who is our (current) audience? The Neo has a high appeal from the
hardware hackers, the debuggers, the core software programmers, and also
those who want to jump head first into the world of a completely open
system. OpenMoko has appeal from virtually any individual that is aggravated
by the software running on their mobile devices or has a niche need which
currently is not filled, and wants to help fix it.

I think a good example is the Asterisk PBX and Digium relationship. Digium
develops the PBX specific hardware and (linux) drivers, while the Asterisk
community develops the software. Digium wins by selling their hardware, and
the Asterisk community wins by gaining a foothold in the corporate market.
Might be a good idea to keep their relationship in mind...
Both the Neo and OpenMoko provide open access to the hardware and software
of a mobile phone. This open platform gives consumers and developers
rightful access to what they own. I see the Neo as the hacker's iPhone. Did
I dare say it?

As the customer or end-user, this open development platform might seem
similar to Firefox in a way (no bias intended). As a community of users
developing a product everyone can use, from tech-geek to grandma. The
Firefox community also has an extensive library of open source extensions,
and if that type of community could be developed for OpenMoko programs, good
things will happen. :)

Palm has even come to a realization that Linux might have some benefits, as
they are developing (or having developed) a version supporting Palm devices.

Random thoughts:

--I believe a pre-paid or "open" plan is different than having an "open"
phone. A pre-paid plan means that a user may not have to pay a monthly fee,
but the user still has the "locked" restrictions in place from their
carrier.

--There are still many people who also think that their phone is a permanent
part of their carrier contract.

--Which mobile phone carrier is the lesser of the evils? (I currently have
Verizon, but they don't support GSM.)

As for advertising, the Alltel commercials are appealing, making the other
carriers look hostile just like the Apple commercials make "PC" look
complicated. A humorous spin might be an idea. "You're joking...you have to
BUY a ringtone?!" "You make me laugh... what's all this SEEM editing about
anyways?"

Unique selling point? I don't think there's just one, but if I had to
choose, it would be the guitar pick for the Neo and penguin-in-you-pocket
for OpenMoko.

Now only if we could throw together a NPO for mobile internet/telecom...



IMHO...

Kyle Bassett

Martin may have forced me to write one of my longest responses yet!  ;)
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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Kyle Bassett]

I agree with Valerio's (humble) opinion.  Having a static manual would have
problems due to the dynamic situation of the software.  (The reason wiki's
were born!)  We need to have an official forum, as questions will be asked
and it will strengthen the community.  forums.openmoko.org I believe is the
way to go.

When people start asking questions over and over again, a) ask them to
search the forums somewhat better next time, and b) make it a wiki article.

This is a pretty important issue...
opinions?

Kyle Bassett


On 7/22/07, Valerio Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Giles Jones ha scritto:
> The number of these users can me minimised by having a very good manual.

This is false imho.

> I know that people don't read manuals often but that's because
> troubleshooting sections are always stuck at the back. Have a special
> separate troubleshooting manual and they may read it.

Remember you're talking about a free customizable smartphone where you
can install lot of applications developed around the world. Not a static
pre-installed software super-branded phone.
As customization capacity/functionality increase, people questions
increase too imho.

Valerio



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Re: OK, the forum is coming..

[Kyle Bassett]

On 7/21/07, Valerio Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


i'm tired to read discussion about forum is good or bad.

i think is good:

- can be a central point for new users (users NOT developers)
- following a thread in a forum it's a lot simpler
- it can have email notification for reply
- could be a central point for developers too!
- other motivations said by other people..

So i'm going to create a forum.

Now, i can set up the forum but i'd need people who want to moderate,
and some graphics suggestions.

Do you prefer phpBB or Invision ? personally i prefer the former.

If anyone is doing/wants to do the same thing, please advice me (in ml
or private address); otherwise, who loves forum follows me. i'll wait
some days before start.

Valerio, Italy

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I have no problem moderating as well.  I prefer phpBB, since I have
experience with it.  We definitely need a forum to direct some of the more
user-base questions that way...  All for it.

Kyle
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Re: An idea for an advertisement

[Kyle Bassett]

I agree with Kent, the fundamental functionality needs to be rock solid.
OpenMoko isn't just representing "free phones", it also is representing
(embedded) Linux.  Before the consumer version is commercially advertised,
we need things like calling, SMS, and contact management.

On another note, since advertising is also very important, I feel ad
development should begin soon, and not wait until we need it.  See how it
goes...I like the idea.  Publish a *beta commercial.   We'll watch it.   :)

Kyle



On 7/21/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 11:08:47AM +0200, Martin Straub wrote:
[...]
> Anyway, Openmoko seems to become well-known without further action =-O
> The picture attached is from the weekend journal of a major Austrian
> newspaper ("Kurier").
>
> The text basically says:
>
> "The Openmoko platform is the basic element of a new series of mobile
> phones utilizing open source software.
> Hence you can adapt the software to your needs. The first mobile phone
> of this series is the Neo1973 which can be ordered for EUR 220".
>
> The price given is correct for Europe (w/o shipping).
>
> But I think before advertising there should be a product ready for the
> mass market, which obviously is not the case right now.
> I think we have some months left designing advertising campaigns.

Yes indeed.  At this point I'm beginning to seriously worry that there may
be
too *much* publicity, not too little.  Having our phone die because of a
backlash from unrealistic expectations would be a really bad thing.

There is a *large* population of users who are sick to death of phone
company
lock-in bullshit.  Our phone doesn't need a lot of advertising to succeed.
It doesn't even need a "killer-app" -- what it really needs, at the
beginning, is well-done basic cell phone functionality.  The initial set
of
applications should be simple and bullet-proof.  Given the open framework,
other things will come in time, but when the first consumer reviews come
in,
it will be death if they say "great idea, but I can't make a phone call,
and
the directory management was too awkward for me to figure out."

Kent


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I got charged ;) -me too!

[Kyle Bassett]

#2081, and I am in total suspense!

Kyle
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