Re: Qtopia Vs. GTK or both?

[t3st3r]

-Original Message-
From: "rakshat hooja" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 18:17:03 +0530
Subject: Qtopia Vs. GTK or both?
 
> I am not to sure how many  people have seen the Neo software stack diagram
> on the wiki but after looking at it there really should not be a GTK Vs
> Qtopia argument any more. But I do wonder how Android fits in?
As for me, I'm preferring to have both GTK and QT based apps on board.Both 
suites have cool apps.So, on desktop system I use best apps from both 
suites.Dunno see strong reasons why this can't happen on mobile 
devices.Furthermore, Nokia goes this way with their n8x0 tablets and as a 
device owner I like this step.

P.S. as far as I understand, Android just a java-based crap which ONLY uses 
Linux as low-level engine, without any native apps or UI frameworks like QT or 
GTK.Hence it is pretty useless that it runs Linux and I see no real reasons why 
Android will be better than "dumb dialers" running proprietary OS + J2ME on 
top.Linux has quite little use if there will be no real fully-featured apps to 
use it's power and Dalvik VM is actually, proprietary.From another side, being 
able to run Android\J2ME apps in addition to lightweight, fast and featured 
native apps is a benefit which can turn device into a powerful competitor on 
"smart phones" market.

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Re[2]: Video of production device?

[t3st3r]

-Original Message-
From: "Vinc Duran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:51:00 -0600
Subject: Re: Video of production device?

> >>> Is there video of the production FreeRunner in use? I found
> >>> http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/illume-vv-01.avi posted by Kevin
> >>> Dean on May 19th. Is that video of shipping software or just a concept
> >>> video?
If someone cares I dislike such UI.Even on video playback it can be seen that 
sometimes some sliding effects are somewhat slow.And, what is slightly worse, 
UI has too few items per screen and over-uses this nasty sliding.So on this 
video I can see just a permanent nasty scrolling and sliding.IMHO such UI is 
neither well optimized for stilus- or finger-driven UI nor comfortable in sense 
that there should be as few levels of nested menus as possible.From video it 
looks like dealing with such menu system is a real PITA.Sliding is great effect 
and looks great and I like it.If it's not overused as here in this example.

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Re[2]: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re:Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)

[t3st3r]

Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote:
>> But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro
>> SD card?  Maybe I misunderstood that.  

> Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just
> a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames.
> (Also the CPU will have more time to spend for doing the I/O.)
But anyway I have to admit that n800 which has comparable resources (400MHz 
ARM11, quite big 800x480 screen with quite data slow output, SD\MMC cards which 
causes a decent load on CPU on heavy I\O, etc) is able to play videos with 
Mplayer pretty nice.Virtually any MP4 of "internet quality" plays well.And even 
lots of CD-sized DIVX movies (someone calls this "DVD rip") are OK without 
recoding, though they're wasting lots of space on card and you may want to 
re-rip DVDs with more optimal parameters set or recode (the only hardware cheat 
is hardware picture resizing which takes no CPU cycles).Actually, video looks 
quite good and I'm pretty sure that such things as Neo *can* play videos.At 
least some of them.As for hardware decoders I have to mention that they tend to 
be picky in what they're willing to decode and what thy're refuse to 
decode.Actually, n800's DSP MP3 decoder for example refuses to decode certain 
MP3 streams."True" hardware decoders are often even more picky and people 
usually hate that.Software decoders are less picky and willing to play much 
more formats and even semi-bugged or semi-damaged data (and once there is waste 
numbers of codecs on planet, you'll encounter such crap sooner or later).

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Re: /. : Feds Have Access To Cellphone Tracking On Request

[t3st3r]

> i wholeheartedly support this open platform that gives its users the control
> to turn -any- of its radios on or off at will (of the operator...).
This will not help too much.Either you're not in the network or network should 
be aware about your location.When someone calls you, network have to select a 
proper Base Station to enroute call to your mobile, don't you think so?If 
network has no idea where you are, there is no place to route call.Call fails 
with "subscriber is not available, blah-blah-blah" message.Simple?;).Surely all 
this can be (ab)used.But I see no any realistic way how to avoid this 
completely.At very most, it is possible to relax things a bit but you can't 
avoid tracking completely because this means network is unable to route 
incoming calls to your phone.

So...
- If you're just an average Joe, relax and enjoy by your 'democracy'.Total 
control.Sounds so democratic, isn't it?That's how democracy works, after all :P
- If you're an IT pro and really willing to do something unfair, you're 
probably know how to avoid this dumb issue anyway ;)

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Re: SIM Card Copy

[t3st3r]

> I just had an idea that I got from a couple of devices, how about a virtual
> SIM card? Is it possible to make an ISO of a SIM card and store it in the
> Neo to be, for lack of a better word, booted from?
In general, no. SIM card is a bit more than just a dumb file system.It does has 
own CPU, file system, etc - all in one IC. When network requests subscriber 
authentication, request (with random number) is in fact passed to SIM card. 
Then SIM does computes proper response itself and returns these data to the 
phone. You can not compute response yourself without having proper card's 
internal key, known as Ki and once request is a random number, you have no way 
to craft proper reply without having correct Ki key. This Ki key is being 
written to the card at manufacturing time.Then, ETSI specs require Ki file to 
be "invalidated".I.e. this file becomes available only to card itself and it's 
built-in software only.But it should be never sent by the card to outside 
world.So, card can compute auth.Nobody else can.Except operator's hardware 
where another Ki copy resides so this hardware can repeat same computations and 
check if our reply to request is correct.

Well, in real world all things are not as ideal as it was intended to be.At 
least some SIM cards still can be "cloned".Initially, algo had cryptographic 
flaws allowing to recover Ki key if enough responses collected.So there was 
softwares which issued lots of requests to card and then recomputed Ki key 
using obtained responses.This requires some noticeable time and physical access 
to SIM card.However even this does not makes operators too happy.So today most 
cards are either limited in a number of requests they're willing to serve 
during their life and dying when this number is exhausted (this causes card to 
die somewhere in the middle of Ki recovery attempt) or networks are updated to 
use newer auth algos without such flaws.Cards which are using newer algos can 
not be cloned since you can't recompute Ki even if you have lots of responses 
collected.So, in modern world lots of cards can't be copied.You can backup some 
stuff like SMSes or phonebook or other crap.But you still can't pass 
authentication without having a real SIM card.

Theoretically, phone can compute authentication data on it's own, making 
virtual SIMs possible (and at least Siemens Mobile did implemented virtual SIM 
stuff in their phone firmwares for testing and debugging).On a practice however 
things are limited by your ability to get proper Ki and only if standard auth 
algo used by the network.In general, you can't expect this to work.Also in 
OpenMoko hardware design it is probably Calypso GSM modem IC who handles all 
this low-level GSM network crap on it's own.Inside it's own closed proprietary 
firmware, making things even harder to implement.I suspect that proprietary 
firmware is also heavily protected against any unauthorized modifications (Ti 
is known to be quite paranoid on security stuff).So, this is both hard to 
implement and OpenMoko isn't a best choice here as well.

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Re: mailing list management

[t3st3r]

hank williams wrote:



I think that this is not useful at all.


Actually it would be quite useful.
I'm do not thinking so.It will waste valuable space in Subject column of 
message list with STUPID and REDUNDANT tags which carry no useful info 
at all and just wasting space in Subject column of messages list, 
leaving less space for really useful subject lines.This will not make 
things better I guess.


Without such a header I am unable to *visually* distinguish between this
Why do you need to do this, at all? You can just set up rules to move 
messages on arrival into separate folders (based on Sender field content 
for example).Quite easy rules and this works perfectly.So I'm for 
example have this mailing list in one separate folder.And another lists 
in another folders.Simple and works, offloading my brain to more 
interesting tasks than "visual distinguishing" of mail messages from 
mailing lists.I'm using Thunderbird but I guess almost any full-featured 
e-mail program can do this for you, freeing your brain for more 
interesting things than sorting e-mail by your own eyes.Crafting such 
simple rules takes some 5 minutes and then reduces load on brain greatly 
so you do not need to spend yor time on visual distinguishing at 
all.Let's machine to work and humans to think.It is a bad idea to 
execute machine work (like sorting dozens of messages by criteria) if 
you're human.


and other mailing lists or mail. Filters are useful for organizing, 
but I personally prefer to see my whole inbox and to view and scan all 
inbound content.
Imho mail list is rather resembles newsgroups than e-mail so it is 
strange to have all things in common place - this will render your inbox 
into huge "Junk e-mail" folder :).Of course nobody can forbid you to do 
machine work like sorting mail by criteria on your own but I guess there 
is lots of more interesting things to do :).And well, yes, I did located 
all mail lists related folders as subfolders of Inbox folder.So, I can 
still scan through all incoming mail if I really need this.Let's admit 
that automatic move of mail lists to other folders makes a lots easier 
to find and handle "usual" (user-to-user) messages.Otherwise it rather 
looks like dealing with huge "Junk email" folder :D


Of course the other thing I always complain about is that this is the 
only mailing list I am on (out of >10) for which (at least in gmail) 
replies to a thread go to the individual and not the list unless I say 
"reply to all"
Let's agree here, this is a bit annoying thing.I did not seen other 
lists with such strange behavior.Imho if I'm clicking Reply, default 
action should be reply to list and not to a specific user.And even if 
you'll "Reply to all" this causes To to contain author of message and CC 
to contain list.What is the clue to bother author with "personal" 
(user-to-user) message?If author needs reply, (s)he is reading mailing 
list as well, isn't it?


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Re: Login Manager

[t3st3r]

Jeff Andros wrote:



simple... display contact info(email, friend's phone number, etc) to 
return the phone at the login screen... 
This will be a pretty good reason even for quite dumb evildoers (who is 
not willing to return device to you on their own) to reflash device with 
default\empty image to get rid of this info to make device looking like 
their own.And location tracking will stopped by reflashing as well.The 
only way to avoid this scenario is to make such people to believe that 
device is in almost its default state without any restrictions set and 
is not going to act "against" them so they will leave current firmware 
as is and it can still silently track phone's coordinates and report 
them to a real owner, giving a good chances to get your device back even 
if those who uses your device did not planned to return it to you.


I think my old(~2000 ish) WM PDA had an option to do that... people 
can't get into the phone itself, but they can figure out how to get 
ahold of you
Yep, in IDEAL world filled with only good people it can work.But in REAL 
world lots of people will prefer not to return device to you but rather 
to remove stupid lock and use device on their own or sell it to 
someone.It is not too hard to remove lock and hence chances to get your 
device back are not very high and depend too much on who is a new device 
owner.If this is good person with fair intentions who is willing to 
return device, this will help.But if for example some a$$hole has just 
stolen your device, do you really expect (s)he will return device to 
you?Unlikely I guess ;).However, if phone (silently!) reports too you 
locations where "a$$hole" can be found, it is quite trivial to get your 
device back.However this tactic requires that new owner to believe that 
device does not restricts it's usage in any way, etc.Adding info about 
owner slightly increases chances that device will be reflashed to reset 
this info, etc.Setting a "hard" lock will cause quite high probability 
that device will be reflashed\unlocked to get rid of lock.




--
Jeff
O|||O


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Re: Login Manager

[t3st3r]

Shakthi Kannan wrote:

Hi,

This is w.r.t. having a login manager for OpenMoko.

I am not sure how other PDA phones implement login access, but, in the
Nokia 6210 classic, even without the SIM card, it simply allows access
to the phone, organizer applications, and data. So, if the phone is
lost, valuable information will be stolen, which is something
end-users don't like.
  
So far, virtually no phones protect USER data well enough.Actually, 
proprietary phones are doing some job at protecting their firmwares from 
hacking and pretty powerful protection in operator locking part, etc.And 
er, virtually no protection of user data.While locks, etc are encrypted 
and heavily checksummed\signed, user's data are stored as is.So anyone 
with physical access to phone can quite easily dump your private data if 
they' really want to.Basically this can be done by just over wires.At 
very most ("uncooperative" boot loader, etc), they have to use JTAG or 
desolder flash IC.Not a great deal for pros.So, once you lost the phone 
you have no reasons to feel your data too secure.They are not secure.


And user's "phone code" often implemented in very lame manner - usually 
it is trivial to remove it or dump it's value.So, no, if you your lost 
phone, phonecode will rather cause it to be removed and phone never 
returned to you.While fair people will be effectively prevented from 
contacting you.So this can even work against phone owner.


I can see two different approaches here.

1) You care about your data and do not care too much about phone is 
returned to you.
The real way to protect all user data from unauthorized use in quite 
powerful manner is to use file system encryption.This will make all 
things protected.Phone book, calendar, notes and all your files.This 
costs though. Filesystem will be slower and due to heavy CPU use battery 
will exhaust faster. Everything has it's price, privacy too.


If someone is willing to implement this ever, there is funny hint, just 
invented by me: long password is pain in the ass to type at boot 
time.And short password is easy to bruteforce. So, you can store long 
encryption key in SIM as phone number and name in SIM address 
book.Access to SIM is protected by short PIN which is hard to brute 
since you only have 3 attempts to go and SIM is pretty secure thing 
:).So user have to enter just short PIN but this will cause powerful 
encryption key to become accessible from SIM's address book.And those 
who do not know pin will not have access to this key since SIM cards are 
refusing address book access without entering proper PIN code IIRC.


This can make data pretty secure.But... evil persons will just erase all 
this and reload "factory" flash image so they can use the phone.Good 
persons will be prevented from contacting you up to some degree since 
phone gives no access to address book.Idea with displaying your contact 
info on boot splash\password request screen can help though.


2) You do care about phone return and do not care too much about 
unauthorised data access.
Then another approach can be good: phone should allow all access to all 
data as usually, any SIM should be OK, etc.Recommended setting is no PIN 
and no phonecode.But it should silently send it's coordinates to let's 
say, e-mail to your mailbox or SMSes to a "friendly" number(your second 
phone number or friend, etc).SMSes will also expose bad guy's phone 
number to you (your friend, etc).So, bad guys can use phone and access 
all your data.But it will silently track them a bit so you can return 
your phone easily.Actually there should be no restrictions in data 
access or features.Otherwise phone will be reflashed by evil people and 
tracking will be stopped so your chances to find your phone will become 
pretty low (IMEI tracking is proven to be quite ineffective since not 
each and every operator on the planet does this and they're cooperate 
poorly enough). Well this will leave all or some data accessible to bad 
guys.Tracking their location and new SIM's phone number in exchange.


I see no effective way to combine these 2 different goals.One is 
prevents access to data but this will enforce bad guys to do full 
reflashing.Killing your (unusable) data but getting working (usable) 
phone.Another approach makes guys to believe phone is not defends itself 
and not secured.While it really silently tracks evildoers.



I read this page:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/My_Account

I put together few points on the login manager:
http://shakthimaan.com/downloads/openmoko/docs/login-manager.pdf

I am not sure if I have missed any user scenarios.
Thoughts/suggestions/feedback appreciated. Just replace .pdf to .odt
in the above to get the OpenOffice document.

If login access has already been addressed in OpenMoko, please let me
know. I hope this is clarified before mass market.

Thanks,

Shakthi

  



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h

Re: Audio Jack 2.5 mm

[t3st3r]

Vladimi'r Lapa'c(ek wrote:

Interesting thing to consider is how many people would like to use the
headset and how many would it use for playing music. 
Wired connection usually preferred by those who listens to music.Others 
are often using bluetooth since it is more convenient (no wires).Usually 
I can see people with wired headsets only if
1)Wired headset was supplied with device by vendor and owner is too lazy 
to buy something else.
2)or owner likes music, bluetooth is not an option here due to lack of 
a2dp support by devices and quite low quality of headsets.


As for me, I will prefer to listen to music on my phone (I'm already do 
and will do in future, that's just convenient).And yes, I will have 
headache with buying 2.5 to 3.5 mm jack converter since handsets with 
2.5 mm jack are pretty low-quality and only suitable for calls (and for 
just calls, bluetooth is more convenient option).



My estimate is
much bigger for the second, but it may be pretty much skewed.

Using an adapter might be an option but not for mainstream (I know,
the phone is not mainstream).
These adapters are popular up to some degree due to some portable 
devices using 2.5 mm jacks, but still this adds some headache with 
finding such adapter.That's not fair, at least for me.


P.S. but 3.5 mm sockets are bigger than 2.5 mm ones - this may be an 
issue for small portable devices.


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Re: Widgets: Openmoko/Chumby transproject?

[t3st3r]

Florent THIERY wrote:

Disclaimer: in no way I'm any official or whatever - I'm just a 
subscriber of this list like you.All following thing is just a my own 
private opinition.Other recipients or officials may feel this in 
slightly another way.

As we can see, the neo and the chumby have a lot in common, be it
ideas, hardware specs or even leaders ;)

Yes, it uses flash7 for widgets. Which has'nt even been considered in
the openmoko case... But what if the two projects shared the widget
aspect?
If you're about Macromedia Flash (er, now Adobe), isn't it closed 
source?There is already some Linux phones where only kernel and a very 
small amount of user-space things are open and remaining components are 
proprietary.Then, why there is need to have one more phone where only 
kernel is open and everything else is closed-source?Also while flash 
player is proprietary, I also see no any good opensource tools to create 
flash animations as well.And well, flash is never fast - due to it's 
nature it is very CPU-intensive.I'm already had "fun" with Siemens 
mobile phone with awfully slow Java-based menu.It was so slow and 
sluggish that users are now hacking this proprietary device to allow 
developer mode and use native-code menu which is much faster.It is real 
pain in the ass to use such devices and wait for device's reaction after 
each action.IMHO UI (or should I better say, MMI?) is good when machine 
waits for human actions.Not when human waits for machine's action to 
complete after each click.


http://www.chumby.com/widgets/channels

This link unfortunately requires me to login to get it working. I hope 
this is not a site advertising?

The two products could share:
* embedded experience
* the content ecosystem
* the display platform (flash) and tools

I'm not saying "i want this". But: "why not"?
I'm stated my point of view.Personally, I will never buy "open" phone 
where UI toolkit is heavily based on closed source thing and requiring 
me to buy proprietary Adobe app to create\change UI parts.That's hardly 
in open source spirit.Also, flash based UIs I seen while looking good 
are quite slow and jerky even on powerful (and power consuming) desktop 
machines so they're hardly usable.Of course this is my own private 
opinition and it is safe to ignore it.


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Re: Richard Stallmans standpoint about openmoko

[t3st3r]

Simon Norberg wrote:

Hello,
I mailed Richard Stallman a while ago regarding a few things including 
what he thought about openmoko and his answer was:


I could endorse it if they get rid of the plan to use non-free
software for the GPS.

I don't think the answer surprise anyone, but atleast we know for sure 
now. And i really hope we can replace the non-free GPS software as 
soon as possible or atleast before the public release.


Regards
Simon Norberg


As for me, I'm have to ask few "unfair" questions.
1) Why there should be some closed-source daemon which does some unknown 
things?And why should I trust it, if I have no idea what it does?
2) As I understand, to fully use features of AGPS I should send some 
data to some server over network, without really having any idea what 
they will do with these data, if they will collect them for later use 
and if my privacy protected here or not.As far as I can understand I 
can't set up my own server to connect it via secure channel and hence to 
ensure that privacy level and data handling policy is acceptable for 
me.Right?


Of course it is possible to do some sort of tracking with GSM and there 
is nothing you can do about it (you have to announce network about your 
presence to be able to receive calls, if network has no idea where you 
are, incoming call will fail with "the subscriber is not available at 
this moment...").But GSM-based tracking is low-precision (something like 
500meters wide ring around serving cell or in worst case, cross of 
500-meter wide rings if more than 1 serving cell were used) and only 
possible when phone calls, transfers data, etc.GPS allows to do much 
more high-precision tracking and this seems to be somewhat unfair idea 
to send gps data to some server without really having idea what they 
will do with these data and which data collection policy is really in 
effect.


Sorry for being paranoid a bit.

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Re: Itch3: Anti-lost/theft protection

[t3st3r]

Marcel de Jong wrote:

On 3/4/07, t3st3r <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


FYI: just to let you know, an anti-thief\anti-lost system for phones
already exists.Here is the story.Maybe someone already heard that
proprietary Siemens mobile phones (x55 series based on 80C166 CPU and
x65 and x75 series based on ARM9) were reverse-engineered deeply and
people has bypassed boot loader protection (preventing user's code from
being uploaded) so everyone can run it's own code on phone's CPU.Also I
heard some other vendors were hacked successfully as well.Some
SonyEricsson for example.

One of the first firmware patches has been the anti-thief subsystem.How
does it works?It does detects SIM card change (by IMSI checking IIRC)
and then SMSes to predefined number(s) (should be someone of your family
or friends of course).This reveals new phone number (allowing to take a
legal actions) and can allow owner to regain remote control, get
coordinates (actually, on Siemens phones you can get Cell ID at very
most, funny enough anyway).



But how does this affect resale of the device? Because then the new
owner inserts a new SIMcard, and then this mechanism would go active,
wouldn't it?
This subsystem was invented by geeks and intended for smart users only - 
you have to apply binary patch to firmware to use this. Of course you 
have to shut this subsystem down before selling phone. Or tell new owner 
how to deal with it if he\she is smart enough.But actually I have to 
admit that before selling phone it is a good idea to

1) revert all patches, if any (upload factory firmware)
2) reset all phone settings to factory defaults (and address 
books\SMSes as well)

3) revert filesystem to factory state.
At this point at least you're free from being bothered by new owner with 
any sort of firmware\settings problems and do not leak your private 
data.Ideal solution is to make FULL firmware backup of new phone (whole 
flash IC dumped) and when you're about to sell phone, just upload this 
backup before you're selling it (therefore returning device to backed up 
state, completely trashing private data and all things you messed 
up).Unfortunately, at home this is possible for some phones only (yep, 
Siemens phones for example) and this may require unreasonable efforts 
for some others.

I'm just curious, it sounds like an interesting idea.
Btw there is some problem.If this solution is default and popular, 
thieves and "lucky people" may become aware of it and may do something 
against this.So in general this will work only while solution is not 
very popular\custom\invisible.






---
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Itch3: Anti-lost/theft protection

[t3st3r]

Paul Wouters wrote:

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote:

  

Personally I like the idea of periodic SMS messages with the
lat/lon/altitude.  When in stolen mode, having the phone receive SMS
msgs containing commands for the phone would seem to be very useful.



The first thing that happens to a stolen phone is that the SIM is
chucked. You won't be able to *send* SMS messages, since you will not
know the phone number. Unless you make sure it SENDS you its new
phone number as well.
  
FYI: just to let you know, an anti-thief\anti-lost system for phones 
already exists.Here is the story.Maybe someone already heard that 
proprietary Siemens mobile phones (x55 series based on 80C166 CPU and 
x65 and x75 series based on ARM9) were reverse-engineered deeply and 
people has bypassed boot loader protection (preventing user's code from 
being uploaded) so everyone can run it's own code on phone's CPU.Also I 
heard some other vendors were hacked successfully as well.Some 
SonyEricsson for example.


One of the first firmware patches has been the anti-thief subsystem.How 
does it works?It does detects SIM card change (by IMSI checking IIRC) 
and then SMSes to predefined number(s) (should be someone of your family 
or friends of course).This reveals new phone number (allowing to take a 
legal actions) and can allow owner to regain remote control, get 
coordinates (actually, on Siemens phones you can get Cell ID at very 
most, funny enough anyway).


Btw, few interesting things to mention...
- People did implemented own run-time and executable files loader.It 
loads ARM .ELF files (lots of arm compilers can produce these 
files).Amazing hack.It allows direct code execution by user on main 
phone's CPU easily (almost as easy as launching Java apps).


- Trojans do you say?Well... you should be a real idiot to download real 
executable code from untrusted place.Anyway, I _never_ heard about ELF 
trojans and even Window$ Mobile allows to run unsigned code but it still 
lacks trojans hell as well.But there is already JAVA trojans targeted 
for USUAL restricted phones.Virtualization does not helps.Users are 
often stupid enough to confirm Java SMS send few times before they 
recognize it costs them few US $ per sms.The ONLY way to prevent abuse 
is to make users smarter. Otherwise no matter what is protection, it 
will fail due to user stupidity.The only perfect solution is either to 
disable to execute anything (even Java!) and have "dumb dialer" instead 
of "smart phone" or to educate users a bit so they're aware of potential 
issues. Also I guess that there is very few native code trojans just 
because stupid users are usually using stupid phones (which are able to 
dial and send smses and able just to run Java at very most) since 
they're cheaper.Smart phones users are usually smarter itself (they have 
to know why they're paying for more expensive device, right?) and hence 
they're less vulnerable to trojans.


- Also I have to admit funny thing.Those cell operators who afraid of 
network hacking and disable to run native code on the phones because of 
this are a *real morons*.There is already a dozens of "hacked" phones 
where user's code runs on main phone's CPU and while this is 1-chip 
solution, this code has COMPLETE access to cell networks, their 
internals and can craft absolutely any data to network.However I never 
heard about cell operator network hacked.But if someone will decide to 
hack network, he has just to use own hacked phone, replace SIM to target 
operator's one and (possibly) craft IMEI allowed to log in to network 
(perfectly possible of course once your code has full control on the 
whole phone, this can be illegal in some countries but hacking networks 
is illegal as well so who cares?).So, operators are better to secure 
their networks.Disabling to run native code just will cause users 
unhappy but it will actually never stop persons with evil intentions 
from doing something wrong with network.Actually looks like an ostrich 
:).Hiding just an head will not save their ass, even if they can no 
longer see danger when head is hidden.
  

Something as simple as having a way of remotely submitting a short
shell script would do the trick.



Stuffing something useful in 160 chars is hard. It's better to design
things beforehand, so you can just send simple commands with arguments.

I wonder if you can send SMSes on the Neo without the user noticing
anything, or wether things like the backlight will be turned on (by the
closed off chip hardware).

Paul

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Re: Wifi again

[t3st3r]

Oleg Gusev wrote:

Am Samstag, 17. Februar 2007 12:24 schrieb t3st3r:
  

P.S. As for me, I'm still do not understand, why there is no WI-FI built
in. This is a BIG hardware design mistake IMHO. 


It does not make sense to complain here about the (missing) 
hardware features. 

Okay, stopping it.
If you urgently need wifi in a phone 
take a HTC model where the ACX100 chipset has 
Linux support (Universal).
  
Will consider buying it only if they'll use linux by default and if it 
will not be crippled in bastardized manner. Bastardized means for 
example, when some assholes "we do know better than you what you need" 
can have hardware or proprietary crapware implementations which are 
prohibiting kernel modifications or software installations - this 
interferes with GPL spirit even if formally can be ok. And there should 
be vendor support and reasonable community around so there is dozen of 
programs ported, etc. Otherwise they're better go to the hell. IIRC, HTC 
does runs Windows mobile  by default and it is too optimistic to assume 
one people can hack Linux in and then port significant amount of 
programs in just one face. Maybe it is possible to have some community 
around it (I heard someone already porting or ported linux to HTC) but I 
guess projects where Linux is a default OS have much more chances to 
gain such community, so thing can become somehow popular and succesful. 
Just compare Nokia 770 vs pocket PC devices "hacked" to run Linux.What 
is more popular? Where lots of software and big and helpful community? I 
guess same case here. I.e. hacking linux to HTC and getting wi-fi to 
work is not impossible ... but is it really worth of [my] efforts? I 
guess answer is probably "NO".


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Re: Wifi again

[t3st3r]

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Another, probably better, option is a bluetooth access point.
  
Yes but it will have insignificant coverage. So it will be hardly 
limited to my home. Still something and better than nothing.
  
P.S. As for me, I'm still do not understand, why there is no WI-FI built 
in. This is a BIG hardware design mistake IMHO. Linux without network is 
something like North Pole without snow. And the only somehow popular 
networking in public places is WI-FI.



This has been discussed many, many times in the last month.  According
to Sean, no wifi chips that both are low-power and have open specs.
  
Hmm. Sorry for bothering once more then. Much more helpful reply 
compared to spam from David Schlesinger, thanks :)


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Re: Wifi again

[t3st3r]

David Schlesinger wrote:


>This is a BIG hardware design mistake IMHO.

I think you should go right out and build your _own_ phone. Tell us 
all about it when you get done.


Kinda strange reply.  I have to admit your reply is completely useless 
and even looks like an insult. Next time please keep such phrases to 
yourself, your family, dog or even /dev/null unless you're openmoko 
official (and if you are, it is ok to unsubscribe me then, since I'm do 
not like idea to spend my time on peoples who posts useless insults as 
reply).


As for me, I'm want to see openmoko success. I did pointed that lots of 
people are unhappy that there is no wi-fi (just seen reaction on few 
linux fan sites). What's wrong? It is forbidden to report weak places 
which are able to affect project's success?





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Re: Wifi again

[t3st3r]

Mike Hodson wrote:

[deleted]
This is not a joke, this is a limitation in the production environment
and time needed to come out with a working product.
Yeah but this means product which is not up-to-date :(. However I have 
to agree that there is a big challenge.


  Please, PLEASE remember, that the first Neo1973 that comes out IS 
FOR DEVELOPERS.
Yep. But I can see a dozen of developers who is also want to have some 
real use of their efforts after all (I can guess this motivates a bunch 
of open source developers). As for me, I'm like idea to take a part in 
device development and then enjoy by the results :).

You can help write the applications to work with wifi, if you wanted
to. 
Without Wi-Fi hardware on board to test on it? Er... but how this 
possible? Ok, actually I'm also quite weak programmer with only some 
moderate C knowledge :( but I'm a professional tester so I can help in 
testing existing stuff to make sure that people will like this phone, 
not to blame it. Also I like low-level programming (if some 
assembly-language stuff required, I can take a look, though my knowledge 
of ARM is far from perfect but I have a personal interest to learn ARM 
as much as possible).



Then, when a production model for CONSUMERS comes out, I can
almost guarantee wifi will be part of the equation, due to mass
acceptance. 
Infinite loop. How can you offer wi-fi to customers if it was not 
developed BEFORE this moment?Turn customers to hardcore pre-alpha 
testers?Not every customer will like it.



Also, as I have pointed out, among others, there will be
another -5- more devices coming out based on the OpenMoko platform,

Sounds gust GREAT!

which will expand into devices not strictly phones, but possibly other
wonderful and interesting things.  Only time will tell what these 5
more devices will be :)

Amazing. Can't sound better :D. I'm personally so tired of proprietary crap.

Please, for now wait for a production and consumer mass market device
before you start expecting things to happen. 
As for me, I will be probably able to use bluetooth.But bluetooth 
internet coverage still limited to home and BT and WiFi hardware is 
slightly different so this will not help anyone to get a working wi-fi 
they're dreaming for.

[deleted]

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Re: Wifi again

[t3st3r]

Alessandro Iurlano wrote:



On 2/16/07, *Esra Kummer* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:

So the Wifi will not be integrated in the first Neo 1973, but is
there a
chance for a hardware addon? Has someone some information about that?

Cheers
Esra


Neo1973 will have a USB interface capable of connecting to a WiFi 
adapter.
But you will need external power for that adapter (or a powered USB 
hub) because

the phone USB interface is an unpowered one.
Sounds like a joke. Can you imagine someone using this solution? Except 
very few (most hardcore) geeks on the planet. Let's remember: mobile 
phone is a PORTABLE device. Bunch of wires from USB hub + hub + usb 
adapter will at least make this thingie hardly usable as, er... phone.


P.S. As for me, I'm still do not understand, why there is no WI-FI built 
in. This is a BIG hardware design mistake IMHO. Linux without network is 
something like North Pole without snow. And the only somehow popular 
networking in public places is WI-FI.

[rest is deleted]

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Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working "Reference" Re: gmail users CC'ing

[t3st3r]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

For instance:

Proposed wiki page:

  How to respond to list email:

  1. Never remove any "re: " in the message subject. Some (not all) email
clients use this to identify the thread.

  2. If your email client adds the original poster and other 
addressees to the

"Cc:" field, remove them. You should always respond only to the list.
This will not work. Defaults will prevail. Everyone will do at least few 
replies with these ugly CCs before (s)he will get idea that something is 
wrong.Already tested on my own ass - got some of these double-messages 
just now.


Real fix: set up mailing list to put its own address 
(community@lists.openmoko.org) into into Reply-to: header and instruct 
people to hit Reply (not Reply all).I hope google cares about this 
header as well? These CCs are possible even with regular mail client, 
too. With default state of things I have to remove original sender 
manually and insert mailing list into To: field instead. In no way I 
want to mail to original sender directly when using mailing list.


P.S. I'm stopping replying to this "google story" thread. It isn't 
interesting - flame mode off.


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Re: Just a personal feedback - I'm just writing for me Re: And please use a emailclients with working "Reference" Re: gmail users CC'ing

[t3st3r]

Robert Michel wrote:

[...deleted]
  

I've tried Yahoo mail, didn't like it, I even tried Fastmail in the
past. (which was slow)

Gmail is responsive for me, and has a lot of good features that I like
and that I use.
And so far I have yet to see any proof of Google actively scr*wing
over their customers, by violating their privacy. Yes they add ads on
the side of the page by scanning your email, 



Yes, google is scanning *my* email and selling adds fitting to
the mail - maybe also selling informations about me to others...

You as gmail user has agreed that google is allowed to 
- scan *my* email

- to save *my* email as long as google likes.
  
That's why I do not like Google Mail. As we Russians say, "if you can 
see free cheese, beware: this usually means there is a mousetrap".As for 
me, Google collects too much private data.And even if Google is "not 
evil", when it comes that Big Brother asks to share some data, it is 
hard or impossible to deny such request. Google already had some issues 
with this. So, free cheese is cool but actually it often has high price 
hidden a bit. Each mouse knows this but not each and every human does 
:).It is interesting, does someone still remembers that privacy is still 
your right?
  
I can't understand why people so close-fisted not spending 
some US$/Euros a year for a mailservice without advertisement

and data mining. When more users would do this, better
services would be on the market.
  
I'm already learned that perfect service possible only if you'll set up 
your own server so everything works like YOU want. Everything else is 
... well, acceptable at most.

My sound was wrong - I just want make you think that you
are give away you and others privatcy for a free webmailservice.

And when the webmailer is also reason for trouble
  
I'm do not care about google mail. However it is quite strange that when 
I'm about to reply, there is actual message author in To: and mailing 
list in CC: in my Thunderbird.As for me, this is inconvienient. IMHO, 
list address should be in "from" header by default, isn't it?


[rest of mail is deleted]

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Re: R: Camera and MMS

[t3st3r]

Andreas Kaeser wrote:

Michele Manzato wrote:

Voting for integrated Camera as well ...


Well, as much as I would like a camera in my all-in-one gadget, it would
be prohibitive for my every day use: in my working environment anything
capable of picture recording is strictly disallowed. So I wouldn't be
able to use Neo1973 :-(

So what? Jailed people are often disallowed to use mobile phones at all. 
Should mobile phones manufacturers to give up and stop producing mobile 
phones at all then?
[off] I'm amazed how easily people are giving up their legal rights in 
favor of semi-illegal corporate policies (or similar stuff) which are 
trashing human rights to the hell. As for me, I'll never work in such 
jail-like environment. Do you want to have open and free gadget ... but 
still have jail-like job?Amazing!Freedom is not just a word - it's way 
of life. Think about it. Twice. [/off]

I guess people working under such conditions are less than 10% of total
population, so maybe we won't be considered too much. A pluggable camera
would definitely help!

As for me, I will never use pluggable camera.Its a separate thing which 
can be lost, forgotten and broken easily (the plug itself is a weak 
place).And it reduces device usability to the hell.Early mobiles 
attempted to use pluggable cameras but it looks like this attempt has 
miserably failed.It has been incredible unpopular idea and died without 
success.However I have nothing against the following: two models, one 
with camera and one without it. However I have no idea how hard and 
costly this to implement (usually, developing 2 devices costs more but 
probably dropping features is relatively easy - just do not solder some 
parts on same PCB and use a bit altered case).


P.S. Of course you can safely ignore my dumb mumblings but before doing 
so, consider that I closely dealt with mobile phones internals since 
2000 and usability is my primary job.


2ALL: sorry for semi-flaming message.


Andreas

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