Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Ron K. Jeffries]

OpenMoko team:

It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
to solve the current leakage issue.

Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
is a Bad Idea.

pull up your socks and do the rework
if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)

-ron jeffries.

CONTEXT:
-- Forwarded message --
From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future Button
and LED software spec)
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a little
> electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering!
>
>
> Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done for all
> GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any
problem
> at all.

Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?

Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
cost to get that done in China?

-- 
Ron K. Jeffries
http://blog.eronj.com
http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Steven Le Roux]

I totally agree with you.

I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the
goal :) : to provides the best free phones.

It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known issue
with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..

I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> OpenMoko team:
>
> It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> to solve the current leakage issue.
>
> Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> is a Bad Idea.
>
> pull up your socks and do the rework
> if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
> besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)
>
> -ron jeffries.
>
> CONTEXT:
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List for Openmoko community discussion"  >
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
> Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future
> Button and LED software spec)
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a
> little
> > electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering!
> >
> >
> > Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done for
> all
> > GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any
> problem
> > at all.
>
> Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?
>
> Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
> change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
> transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
> cost to get that done in China?
>
> --
> Ron K. Jeffries
> http://blog.eronj.com
> http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
>
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>


-- 
Steven Le Roux
Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Kevin Dean]

I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully
functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it
could be, just like every other product on the planet.

For those saying "wait another month" I've got a different arguement -
let's NOT hire people to make the changes, purchase the equipment
needed to do it. If a missing transistor is really upsetting someone
that much, the open nature of Openmoko works in your favor because you
can wait until the units you consider "defective" are sold out. I, for
one, don't want to pay the costs (and I will, if Openmoko decides to
wait and add the transistor for goodwill) that will be incurred and
spread over the rest of the product line. I'm QUITE happy to take a v5
and go along on my merry way.

It is quite possible to make your statement by NOT purchasing a v5
unit and waiting for a v6. Choosing to wait yourself, without passing
the delay and costs onto everyone else is the most ethical, polite way
to solve the problem.

-Kevin

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I totally agree with you.
>
> I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the
> goal :) : to provides the best free phones.
>
> It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known issue
> with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..
>
> I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > OpenMoko team:
> >
> > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> > to solve the current leakage issue.
> >
> > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> > is a Bad Idea.
> >
> > pull up your socks and do the rework
> > if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
> > besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)
> >
> > -ron jeffries.
> >
> > CONTEXT:
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "List for Openmoko community discussion"
> 
> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
> > Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future
> Button and LED software spec)
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a
> little
> > > electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering!
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done for
> all
> > > GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any
> problem
> > > at all.
> >
> > Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?
> >
> > Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
> > change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
> > transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
> > cost to get that done in China?
> >
> > --
> > Ron K. Jeffries
> > http://blog.eronj.com
> > http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steven Le Roux
> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ___
>  Openmoko community mailing list
>  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Federico Lorenzi]

Wow, oh no. That means if I use the LEDs (assuming the use 3v or so) I
will use 50ma. How long exactly do you plan on keeping your LEDs on
for? Quite frankly I _don't_ care about this, and neither do most
people, because the LEDs aren't exactly a deal breaking feature.

Cheers,
Federico

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 3:57 AM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully
>  functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it
>  could be, just like every other product on the planet.
>
>  For those saying "wait another month" I've got a different arguement -
>  let's NOT hire people to make the changes, purchase the equipment
>  needed to do it. If a missing transistor is really upsetting someone
>  that much, the open nature of Openmoko works in your favor because you
>  can wait until the units you consider "defective" are sold out. I, for
>  one, don't want to pay the costs (and I will, if Openmoko decides to
>  wait and add the transistor for goodwill) that will be incurred and
>  spread over the rest of the product line. I'm QUITE happy to take a v5
>  and go along on my merry way.
>
>  It is quite possible to make your statement by NOT purchasing a v5
>  unit and waiting for a v6. Choosing to wait yourself, without passing
>  the delay and costs onto everyone else is the most ethical, polite way
>  to solve the problem.
>
>  -Kevin
>
>
>
>  On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > I totally agree with you.
>  >
>  > I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the
>  > goal :) : to provides the best free phones.
>  >
>  > It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known 
> issue
>  > with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..
>  >
>  > I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  > wrote:
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > OpenMoko team:
>  > >
>  > > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
>  > > to solve the current leakage issue.
>  > >
>  > > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
>  > > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
>  > > is a Bad Idea.
>  > >
>  > > pull up your socks and do the rework
>  > > if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
>  > > besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)
>  > >
>  > > -ron jeffries.
>  > >
>  > > CONTEXT:
>  > > -- Forwarded message --
>  > > From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  > > To: "List for Openmoko community discussion"
>  > 
>  > > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
>  > > Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future
>  > Button and LED software spec)
>  > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
>  > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > > > It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a
>  > little
>  > > > electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering!
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done for
>  > all
>  > > > GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any
>  > problem
>  > > > at all.
>  > >
>  > > Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?
>  > >
>  > > Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
>  > > change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
>  > > transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
>  > > cost to get that done in China?
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > > Ron K. Jeffries
>  > > http://blog.eronj.com
>  > > http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ___
>  > > Openmoko community mailing list
>  > > community@lists.openmoko.org
>  > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Steven Le Roux
>  > Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > ___
>  >  Openmoko community mailing list
>  >  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >
>  >
>
>  ___
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>

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[ian douglas]

I agree.

If the LED's are used by the software to show various states in the 
software, then why can't we just use software to turn them off when we 
don't want them on?


Problem solved, without any hardware hacks needed.

That's the beauty of open source. Find where the lights are controlled, 
work around it so the LED's never stay on permanently if you don't want 
them to, and carry on.


-id


Federico Lorenzi wrote:

How long exactly do you plan on keeping your LEDs on for?
the LEDs aren't exactly a deal breaking feature.


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Pietro "m0nt0" Montorfano]

ian douglas ha scritto:

I agree.

If the LED's are used by the software to show various states in the 
software, then why can't we just use software to turn them off when we 
don't want them on?


Problem solved, without any hardware hacks needed.

That's the beauty of open source. Find where the lights are controlled, 
work around it so the LED's never stay on permanently if you don't want 
them to, and carry on.


-id


Federico Lorenzi wrote:

How long exactly do you plan on keeping your LEDs on for?
the LEDs aren't exactly a deal breaking feature.


Well the goal of the GTA02 is to be a hardware without known issue, 
after that I am torned in 2 part, the one who say "you don't like the 
led, you don't want the led" and the other one who say "in your old 
motorola the status led was very useful, in the actual phone is the 
same, yeah you can live without them but if it's a known issue why you 
have to do that?"


Ok, let me be serious, if it's a known issue with a missing transistor 
let us know if it could be solved by a "normal" guy with a normal skill 
with soldering, if not then please, please make a small delay to fix 
this. If the issue is a software one it could be solved later (and hey, 
i'm buying a developer edition), if it's an hardware issue it will be 
there for the rest of my neo life and it's quite bad


Cya!

Pietro

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Andrea Debortoli]

2008/4/19, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully
> functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it
> could be, just like every other product on the planet.
>
> For those saying "wait another month" I've got a different arguement -
> let's NOT hire people to make the changes, purchase the equipment
> needed to do it. If a missing transistor is really upsetting someone
> that much, the open nature of Openmoko works in your favor because you
> can wait until the units you consider "defective" are sold out. I, for
> one, don't want to pay the costs (and I will, if Openmoko decides to
> wait and add the transistor for goodwill) that will be incurred and
> spread over the rest of the product line. I'm QUITE happy to take a v5
> and go along on my merry way.
>
> It is quite possible to make your statement by NOT purchasing a v5
> unit and waiting for a v6. Choosing to wait yourself, without passing
> the delay and costs onto everyone else is the most ethical, polite way
> to solve the problem.


I don't know if it's possible to explicitly choose a GTA02v5 or a GTA02v6 at
the buying moment...
if someone will tell us something about this I'll be more quiet...:)
I'm very happy that someone is going to buy a bugged hw (although barely),
but remember that battery lifetime is (and probably will always be) a
critical issue for Freerunners, and personally I don't want to buy an hw
revision that increase these issues...(knowing that there is a better one
around the corner)

Regards
Andrea Debortoli

-Kevin
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I totally agree with you.
> >
> > I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget
> the
> > goal :) : to provides the best free phones.
> >
> > It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known
> issue
> > with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..
> >
> > I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > OpenMoko team:
> > >
> > > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> > > to solve the current leakage issue.
> > >
> > > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> > > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> > > is a Bad Idea.
> > >
> > > pull up your socks and do the rework
> > > if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
> > > besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)
> > >
> > > -ron jeffries.
> > >
> > > CONTEXT:
> > > -- Forwarded message --
> > > From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "List for Openmoko community discussion"
> > 
> > > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future
> > Button and LED software spec)
> > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a
> > little
> > > > electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start
> soldering!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done
> for
> > all
> > > > GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any
> > problem
> > > > at all.
> > >
> > > Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?
> > >
> > > Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
> > > change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
> > > transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
> > > cost to get that done in China?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ron K. Jeffries
> > > http://blog.eronj.com
> > > http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Openmoko community mailing list
> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steven Le Roux
> > Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ___
> >  Openmoko community mailing list
> >  community@lists.openmoko.org
> >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
>
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Marc-Olivier Barre]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OpenMoko team:
>
> It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> to solve the current leakage issue.
>
> Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
>  is a Bad Idea.

Yup. And if we've all been patiently waiting for *quite* a while, it
was to get out hands on *Stable Hardware(tm)* and handle half finished
software ourselves. Heck, what happened to that requirement in the
meantime ?

The worst part is, early adopters (devs and such) will be ONCE AGAIN
getting bugged hardware.

I've preordered on Trisoft at the beginning of the week, shall I
cancel ? do we know what board we will get ?
__
Marc-Olivier Barre,
MarcO'Chapeau.

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Ivo Anjo]

I kinda agree... I'm looking forward to my freerunner, but I want to buy it
knowing that the hardware is ok, and that the software will have a few bumps
as always, but if it doesn't work today, it will be fixed sometime in the
future.

I want to play around and develop for the freerunner, but I don't want an
expensive paperweight to keep on my desk, I want to use it daily and have it
with me everywhere!

Ivo

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Marc-Olivier Barre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > OpenMoko team:
> >
> > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> > to solve the current leakage issue.
> >
> > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> >  is a Bad Idea.
>
> Yup. And if we've all been patiently waiting for *quite* a while, it
> was to get out hands on *Stable Hardware(tm)* and handle half finished
> software ourselves. Heck, what happened to that requirement in the
> meantime ?
>
> The worst part is, early adopters (devs and such) will be ONCE AGAIN
> getting bugged hardware.
>
> I've preordered on Trisoft at the beginning of the week, shall I
> cancel ? do we know what board we will get ?
> __
> Marc-Olivier Barre,
> MarcO'Chapeau.
>
> ___
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[AVee]

On Saturday 19 April 2008 03:38, Steven Le Roux wrote:
> I totally agree with you.
>
> I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the
> goal :) : to provides the best free phones.
>
> It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known
> issue with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..
>
> I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...

Maybe you can, and in that case, feel free to wait until the v6 hits the shop. 
But why should that stop the production of the v5? It all still sounds like 
just turning off the leds solves the problem, I don't consider that to be a 
showstopper. If there were no leds at all, i'd still would have bought it...

AVee

-- 
You've been warned! If you fall and break your leg, don't come running to me!

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Andrea Debortoli wrote:
2008/4/19, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

It is quite possible to make your statement by NOT purchasing a v5
unit and waiting for a v6. Choosing to wait yourself, without passing
the delay and costs onto everyone else is the most ethical, polite way
to solve the problem.

I don't know if it's possible to explicitly choose a GTA02v5 or a 
GTA02v6 at the buying moment...

if someone will tell us something about this I'll be more quiet...:)
I'm very happy that someone is going to buy a bugged hw (although 
barely), but remember that battery lifetime is (and probably will always 
be) a critical issue for Freerunners, and personally I don't want to buy 
an hw revision that increase these issues...(knowing that there is a 
better one around the corner)


I agree... There's also another issue to consider: in the marketing 
threads it was said that the first "thousands phones" will have more 
goods in their box, so this makes me think that only people buying a v5 
will get these things.


My personal position is now quite singular, since I'd like to get the 
best hardware I can (since I know there's it already) but I also need a 
phone (but with good power management and so good daily usage) as soon 
as I can.



--
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Pietro "m0nt0" Montorfano]

Marco Trevisan (Treviño) ha scritto:
I agree... There's also another issue to consider: in the marketing 
threads it was said that the first "thousands phones" will have more 
goods in their box, so this makes me think that only people buying a v5 
will get these things.


My personal position is now quite singular, since I'd like to get the 
best hardware I can (since I know there's it already) but I also need a 
phone (but with good power management and so good daily usage) as soon 
as I can.





Well, for me it's important to have a good hardware, if it has some 
known issue i would prefer that they sould be solved, if this LED bug 
could be fixed with a simple transistor replacement, this transistor is 
in the GTA02v5 box and it's possible for a normal guy with a little 
soldering skills to replace this transistor it's not a problem (read 
something like "if i can do that it's ok :D").
If the issue is something that can't be solved it's something that goes 
opposite of what is GTA02 for, a solid hardware platform.

"Every commercial product has bug" it's not a good point.

I'll buy it if it's fixable, waiting for a word from OM :D

Cya!

Pietro
(Despite everything i really like the OM approach!! Go Go OM Guys and 
remember, may the source be with you!! :D)


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[martin-o23533]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:20:15PM +0200, Marc-Olivier Barre wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > OpenMoko team:
> >
> > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> > to solve the current leakage issue.
> >
> > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> >  is a Bad Idea.
> 
> Yup. And if we've all been patiently waiting for *quite* a while, it
> was to get out hands on *Stable Hardware(tm)* and handle half finished
> software ourselves. Heck, what happened to that requirement in the
> meantime ?

Welcome to the real world.
Do you really belive you get totally optimal hardware without known bugs
with any vendor? I don't thing so. It's always a judgement call and you
just don't see what is know suboptimal with other vendors.

I think one small element that's off most of the time drawing a bit more
energy than absolutly needed isn't the end of the world.
There will always be better hardware on the horizont with computer
devices... If you try to get "perfect" you will never be able to buy
anything.
With openmoko you just get a tiny bit more information showing so.

Well, it's up to you to decide what to do. But honestly i think this is a
bit out of proportion. 
Did anybody try to calculate how much this added draw will shorten the
uptime of the phone? if not how can you claim it's a blocker problem?

 - Martin

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[martin]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 12:20:15PM +0200, Marc-Olivier Barre wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > OpenMoko team:
> >
> > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> > to solve the current leakage issue.
> >
> > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> >  is a Bad Idea.
> 
> Yup. And if we've all been patiently waiting for *quite* a while, it
> was to get out hands on *Stable Hardware(tm)* and handle half finished
> software ourselves. Heck, what happened to that requirement in the
> meantime ?

Welcome to the real world.
Do you really belive you get totally optimal hardware without known bugs
with any vendor? I don't thing so. It's always a judgement call and you
just don't see what is know suboptimal with other vendors.

I think one small element that's off most of the time drawing a bit more
energy than absolutly needed isn't the end of the world.
There will always be better hardware on the horizont with computer
devices... If you try to get "perfect" you will never be able to buy
anything.
With openmoko you just get a tiny bit more information showing so.

Well, it's up to you to decide what to do. But honestly i think this is a
bit out of proportion. 
Did anybody try to calculate how much this added draw will shorten the
uptime of the phone? if not how can you claim it's a blocker problem?

 - Martin

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RE: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[steve]

Ian

  
 Personally I'd vote LEDS off the island. But since we are open source
people can write apps to turn on every feature of the phone in any way they
want and drain the battery in any way they want. I will ask the question if
the LED
Can be turned off entirely.  

  

 I feel like Clark Griswold.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qc_RYm0ylA&feature=related

 At the end his father in law says " the little lights are not twinkling."  




  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 10:15 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

I agree.

If the LED's are used by the software to show various states in the
software, then why can't we just use software to turn them off when we don't
want them on?

Problem solved, without any hardware hacks needed.

That's the beauty of open source. Find where the lights are controlled, work
around it so the LED's never stay on permanently if you don't want them to,
and carry on.

-id


Federico Lorenzi wrote:
> How long exactly do you plan on keeping your LEDs on for?
> the LEDs aren't exactly a deal breaking feature.

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 10:53 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Ian
>
>
>   Personally I'd vote LEDS off the island. But since we are open source
>  people can write apps to turn on every feature of the phone in any way they
>  want and drain the battery in any way they want. I will ask the question if
>  the LED
>  Can be turned off entirely.
>
I thought this was the problem. That the transistor didn't cut the
power to the leds. I don't care if I get a version with led issue, but
I would like to know exactly what it is (so that I know which HW mods
I can make myself). Thank you for figuring this out.

-- 
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http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Fahrstuhl]

Heya,
the wiki-page about the Freerunner hardware states that issue would be 
resolved in the GTA02v5 mass production phones. [1]
	"A6 will be fine tune version of A5, only minor schematic change for 
better product quality and version control. Capacitor and resistor 
change A6 also on mass production A5"



[1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#GTA02v5

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:53 PM, Fahrstuhl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Heya,
>  the wiki-page about the Freerunner hardware states that issue would be
> resolved in the GTA02v5 mass production phones. [1]
> "A6 will be fine tune version of A5, only minor schematic change for
> better product quality and version control. Capacitor and resistor change A6
> also on mass production A5"
>

Please correct me if I am wrong.
I don't think the led fix is there. The issue was discovered after the
cap. change

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Mikko Rauhala]

pe, 2008-04-18 kello 21:57 -0400, Kevin Dean kirjoitti: 
> I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully
> functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it
> could be, just like every other product on the planet.

Hear hear. For fuck's sake, people. "Boohoo, there's gonna be a better
version down the line." Where the hell have you lived your tech lives?
This is how it _always_ is, and blowing any piece of admitted
suboptimality so out of proportion Escher would be proud is _not_ the
way to encourage an open development process.

Don't like a couple of LEDs being slightly brighter than strictly
necessary? Okay, there's the Perfect v6 coming up. Oh wait, it still
doesn't have wake-on-bluetooth (I'm almost sorry for mentioning this bit
of old news since it may stir up yet another storm in a teacup - again).
And it won't, too much reworking would be involved. So you'd better just
skip the FreeRunner altogether, you know, to get the perfect phone.

Don't think that's comparable to the lack of a minor power saving hw
feature? Well, there's this new Atheros AR6002 wifi chip that's more
power efficient than Neo's AR6001, so clearly, since we _already know_,
as many are stressing over the fucking LED thing, that the FreeRunner is
using a suboptimal solution, they should just scrap that piece of shit
and rebuild using this more power-efficient chip.

Of course, this all will mean that they'll never get any actual products
out, since there's always room for improvement especially in our
fast-paced tech world, but hey, it's all to satisfy the people who want
their phones Just Perfect.

And the point was? Yeah, the point. There was one here somewhere, let me
look for it. Oh yeah. Here it is:

Nothing. Will. Ever. Be. Perfect.

Get over it. Not to say you shouldn't wait for v6 if it would grind your
soul inside every time to see the led blink on a v5. Please do. Just
leave the rest of us in peace. Oh, and hope that the OM guys won't ever
think of a cheap way to make FR again slightly better and start
producing a v7. Why, that would mean that your phone would instantly
become useless crap, wouldn't it. Wouldn't it?

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>




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RE: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[steve]

 Well,

   I don't have it figured out because I have some differing bits of info.
  Don't fret, I will get the info and update everyone.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter
Mikkelsen
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 2:39 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 10:53 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Ian
>
>
>   Personally I'd vote LEDS off the island. But since we are open 
> source  people can write apps to turn on every feature of the phone in 
> any way they  want and drain the battery in any way they want. I will 
> ask the question if  the LED  Can be turned off entirely.
>
I thought this was the problem. That the transistor didn't cut the power to
the leds. I don't care if I get a version with led issue, but I would like
to know exactly what it is (so that I know which HW mods I can make myself).
Thank you for figuring this out.

--
Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>

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RE: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[steve]

 I bet you've built and shipped a few things in your life.

Dr. Johnson:  Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

PS. Big fan of Ray K. we should talk.

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mikko Rauhala
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:37 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

pe, 2008-04-18 kello 21:57 -0400, Kevin Dean kirjoitti: 
> I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully 
> functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it 
> could be, just like every other product on the planet.

Hear hear. For fuck's sake, people. "Boohoo, there's gonna be a better
version down the line." Where the hell have you lived your tech lives?
This is how it _always_ is, and blowing any piece of admitted suboptimality
so out of proportion Escher would be proud is _not_ the way to encourage an
open development process.

Don't like a couple of LEDs being slightly brighter than strictly necessary?
Okay, there's the Perfect v6 coming up. Oh wait, it still doesn't have
wake-on-bluetooth (I'm almost sorry for mentioning this bit of old news
since it may stir up yet another storm in a teacup - again).
And it won't, too much reworking would be involved. So you'd better just
skip the FreeRunner altogether, you know, to get the perfect phone.

Don't think that's comparable to the lack of a minor power saving hw
feature? Well, there's this new Atheros AR6002 wifi chip that's more power
efficient than Neo's AR6001, so clearly, since we _already know_, as many
are stressing over the fucking LED thing, that the FreeRunner is using a
suboptimal solution, they should just scrap that piece of shit and rebuild
using this more power-efficient chip.

Of course, this all will mean that they'll never get any actual products
out, since there's always room for improvement especially in our fast-paced
tech world, but hey, it's all to satisfy the people who want their phones
Just Perfect.

And the point was? Yeah, the point. There was one here somewhere, let me
look for it. Oh yeah. Here it is:

Nothing. Will. Ever. Be. Perfect.

Get over it. Not to say you shouldn't wait for v6 if it would grind your
soul inside every time to see the led blink on a v5. Please do. Just leave
the rest of us in peace. Oh, and hope that the OM guys won't ever think of a
cheap way to make FR again slightly better and start producing a v7. Why,
that would mean that your phone would instantly become useless crap,
wouldn't it. Wouldn't it?

-- 
 

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Mikko Rauhala wrote:

And the point was? Yeah, the point. There was one here somewhere, let me
look for it. Oh yeah. Here it is:

Nothing. Will. Ever. Be. Perfect.


I know this and I never asked for a perfect device, I do really know 
that this LED(s) issue is just a minor problem, but I was asking myself 
and then to the community at all why Openmoko decided to start sending a 
device version with a minor bug


A simple (and good) answer could have been: «We've already built 
thousands v5 phones to be sold, should we trow them away just for a 
fucking LED?!» [no, of course].


I don't think that it was wrong advertising here an issue found on a 
devel list. It's important being up to date, then you choose!


--
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:53 PM, Fahrstuhl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Heya,
 the wiki-page about the Freerunner hardware states that issue would be
resolved in the GTA02v5 mass production phones. [1]
"A6 will be fine tune version of A5, only minor schematic change for
better product quality and version control. Capacitor and resistor change A6
also on mass production A5"



Please correct me if I am wrong.
I don't think the led fix is there. The issue was discovered after the
cap. change


I think so, but... Aren't these also important things from the power 
management point of view?


# Add capacitor space for Vbat, reduce the SMT effort
# Add GSM IR resistor for better GSM deep sleep

--
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http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Dirk Deimeke]

Hi,

>   Nothing. Will. Ever. Be. Perfect.

thanks for your statement. It is really appreciated.

The same is for software.

Dirk

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[ramsesoriginal]

I this mail is great. I totally agree!
Sure, as Marco said, if no phone is still produced, and the change is
minimal, then it would be better to start proucing right away with he
improved versions.But I think most people can live with a brighter
led, even if that means some battery life less.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 1:36 AM, Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> pe, 2008-04-18 kello 21:57 -0400, Kevin Dean kirjoitti:
>
> > I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully
>  > functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it
>  > could be, just like every other product on the planet.
>
>  Hear hear. For fuck's sake, people. "Boohoo, there's gonna be a better
>  version down the line." Where the hell have you lived your tech lives?
>  This is how it _always_ is, and blowing any piece of admitted
>  suboptimality so out of proportion Escher would be proud is _not_ the
>  way to encourage an open development process.
>
>  Don't like a couple of LEDs being slightly brighter than strictly
>  necessary? Okay, there's the Perfect v6 coming up. Oh wait, it still
>  doesn't have wake-on-bluetooth (I'm almost sorry for mentioning this bit
>  of old news since it may stir up yet another storm in a teacup - again).
>  And it won't, too much reworking would be involved. So you'd better just
>  skip the FreeRunner altogether, you know, to get the perfect phone.
>
>  Don't think that's comparable to the lack of a minor power saving hw
>  feature? Well, there's this new Atheros AR6002 wifi chip that's more
>  power efficient than Neo's AR6001, so clearly, since we _already know_,
>  as many are stressing over the fucking LED thing, that the FreeRunner is
>  using a suboptimal solution, they should just scrap that piece of shit
>  and rebuild using this more power-efficient chip.
>
>  Of course, this all will mean that they'll never get any actual products
>  out, since there's always room for improvement especially in our
>  fast-paced tech world, but hey, it's all to satisfy the people who want
>  their phones Just Perfect.
>
>  And the point was? Yeah, the point. There was one here somewhere, let me
>  look for it. Oh yeah. Here it is:
>
> Nothing. Will. Ever. Be. Perfect.
>
>  Get over it. Not to say you shouldn't wait for v6 if it would grind your
>  soul inside every time to see the led blink on a v5. Please do. Just
>  leave the rest of us in peace. Oh, and hope that the OM guys won't ever
>  think of a cheap way to make FR again slightly better and start
>  producing a v7. Why, that would mean that your phone would instantly
>  become useless crap, wouldn't it. Wouldn't it?
>
>  --
>  Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
>  Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
>  Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ___
>  Openmoko community mailing list
>  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>



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RE: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Crane, Matthew]

Exactly.  Every cell phone I've ever had has contained obvious firmware
bugs, firmware or otherwise.  The difference is with openness you are
far more likely to find and resolve the bugs.   

I hope it ships, it would be crazy to not ship with such a minor issue
that can be soft fixed.

Matt



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:35 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework
> 
> Yup. And if we've all been patiently waiting for *quite* a while, it
> was to get out hands on *Stable Hardware(tm)* and handle half finished
> software ourselves. Heck, what happened to that requirement in the
> meantime ?

Welcome to the real world.
Do you really belive you get totally optimal hardware without known bugs
with any vendor? I don't thing so. It's always a judgement call and you
just don't see what is know suboptimal with other vendors.

I think one small element that's off most of the time drawing a bit more
energy than absolutly needed isn't the end of the world.
There will always be better hardware on the horizont with computer
devices... If you try to get "perfect" you will never be able to buy
anything.
With openmoko you just get a tiny bit more information showing so.

Well, it's up to you to decide what to do. But honestly i think this is
a
bit out of proportion. 
Did anybody try to calculate how much this added draw will shorten the
uptime of the phone? if not how can you claim it's a blocker problem?

 - Martin

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Michele Renda]

A long time ago I bougt a phone, a Motorola A835. He ad a led under a 
joysick, but it was disabled. And it was also multicolor.


It was so disabled that I know about it only after one year playing with 
a flesh software.


I didn't died with without the let.

May be that Motorola had the same problem :) but it didn't spoke. Which 
hw was more bugged?




I totally agree with you.

I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the
goal :) : to provides the best free phones.

It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known
issue with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..

I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...
  


Maybe you can, and in that case, feel free to wait until the v6 hits the shop.
But why should that stop the production of the v5? It all still sounds like
just turning off the leds solves the problem, I don't consider that to be a
showstopper. If there were no leds at all, i'd still would have bought it...

AVee

  


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply

[Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)]

Dear Ron/Community:

This confusion comes from time latency of series of events, but no 
matter A5 or A6 should all apply the LED transistor change.


I already update all the changes that shipping A5 will apply.

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#GTA02_mass_roduction_version_change_list

If your A5 don't have these changes, either you are lucky prototype 
users, or pure sample sent by sales.


The full event time line like this:

2008 Early March: Werner/Andy found this potential LED leakage issue 
under some LED ON power scheme


2008 Mid/Late March: Allen_Chang try several transistor vendors, to 
replace original transistor, during this time DVT4 units are produced 
without apply this change


2008 Early April: Finally transistor vendor provide 200 pcs transistor 
for experiment, Allen and Willie/Miles verified that this transistor 
could work on boards and fits our production software/process. So this 
components was approved. But due to quantiles limit, the same time PVT1 
and PVT2 pre_MP units don't _All_ apply these changes.


As I known, all the PVT and pre-MP units will ship back Taipei for RD 
usage and sample, won't ship to customers.


Tony Tu



Ron K. Jeffries wrote:

OpenMoko team:

It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
to solve the current leakage issue.

Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
is a Bad Idea.

pull up your socks and do the rework
if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)

-ron jeffries.

CONTEXT:
-- Forwarded message --
From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
To: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org>>

Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future 
Button and LED software spec)

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
 > It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a 
little

 > electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering!
 >
 >
 > Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done 
for all
 > GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any 
problem

 > at all.

Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?

Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
cost to get that done in China?

--
Ron K. Jeffries
http://blog.eronj.com
http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries





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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply

[Carlo E. Prelz]

Subject: Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply
Date: dom 20 apr 08 05:15:29 +0800

Quoting Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> This confusion comes from time latency of series of events, but no  
> matter A5 or A6 should all apply the LED transistor change.

THANKS! Very refreshing reading.

Carlo

-- 
  * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe
  *   di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)

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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) ha scritto:
This confusion comes from time latency of series of events, but no 
matter A5 or A6 should all apply the LED transistor change.


I already update all the changes that shipping A5 will apply.

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#GTA02_mass_roduction_version_change_list 


So, the only power-related issue fixed on A6 (and so not fixed on mass 
production version) is:


* GSM_modem power source Reduce power's ripple when the phone is talking

I guess this is a minor issue, isn't it? Could we have more informations?

Thanks anyway for your news and to the all Openmoko guys for their 
efforts and for the comunication they keep with the community.

This is the power of an open company!!!

BTW, I'm happy to know that I'll be able to drain my GTA02v5 
flashlighting my LEDs all the day :D


--
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply

[Steven Le Roux]

Thank you Tony for the update !

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 3:25 PM, "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) ha scritto:
>
> > This confusion comes from time latency of series of events, but no
> > matter A5 or A6 should all apply the LED transistor change.
> >
> > I already update all the changes that shipping A5 will apply.
> >
> >
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#GTA02_mass_roduction_version_change_list
> >
>
> So, the only power-related issue fixed on A6 (and so not fixed on mass
> production version) is:
>
> * GSM_modem power source Reduce power's ripple when the phone is talking
>
> I guess this is a minor issue, isn't it? Could we have more informations?
>
> Thanks anyway for your news and to the all Openmoko guys for their efforts
> and for the comunication they keep with the community.
> This is the power of an open company!!!
>
> BTW, I'm happy to know that I'll be able to drain my GTA02v5 flashlighting
> my LEDs all the day :D
>
> --
> Treviño's World - Life and Linux
> http://www.3v1n0.net/
>
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
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>



-- 
Steven Le Roux
Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework - reply

[Pietro "m0nt0" Montorfano]

Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) ha scritto:

Dear Ron/Community:
[snip]
As I known, all the PVT and pre-MP units will ship back Taipei for RD 
usage and sample, won't ship to customers.


Tony Tu



Ahh this is the mail i was waiting for :D
Ok, now everything is clear and the phone is mine for sure

Cya!

Pietro

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