Re: Avoid duplicates on ML (was: Re: Fundamental Qi question)
El Wednesday, 17 de June de 2009 07:49:16 Evgeniy Karyakin va escriure: More offtopic: how about not to start new thread with every mail from you? For reading this ML I use GMail web interface and ~95% of messages from you are shown as new threads despite that messages are obviously replies (contain other's quotations with multiple levels). Just a question/advice. The problem is that gmail web interface don't follow the threads they fake them using Subject instead of the correct headers In-Reply-To and References. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Avoid duplicates on ML (was: Re: Fundamental Qi question)
. El Wednesday, 17 de June de 2009 07:49:16 Evgeniy Karyakin va escriure: More offtopic: how about not to start new thread with every mail from you? For reading this ML I use GMail web interface and ~95% of messages from you are shown as new threads despite that messages are obviously replies (contain other's quotations with multiple levels). Just a question/advice. The problem is that gmail web interface don't follow the threads they fake them using Subject instead of the correct headers In-Reply-To and References. Exactly what I just discovered looking at raw email headers and Subject fields. Thanks Jose, apologies to Paul and curses to Google. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Avoid duplicates on ML (was: Re: Fundamental Qi question)
To avoid getting duplicates (when a person sends a mail To or Cc you and the list at the same time) one just needs to set his personal preferences (and for most ML it's default to avoid duplicates), for mailman it's described in [1]. [1] http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node21.html More offtopic: how about not to start new thread with every mail from you? For reading this ML I use GMail web interface and ~95% of messages from you are shown as new threads despite that messages are obviously replies (contain other's quotations with multiple levels). Just a question/advice. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On 6/06/2009 6:26 PM, arne anka wrote: stop answering to me at all! From one dolt to another, stop trying to convert threads with your own agenda and answer the original frakkin question, or ask your own ... or stay silent and this won't happen. You have some worthwhile input when you stay in context, I know you're not as dumb as you appear at this moment, I wouldn't have had a go at your otherwise. Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On 3/06/2009 6:32 PM, arne anka wrote: Oh did I say that questioning Qi was spreading FUD and mail congestion? that's how i understood it. Well you'd be wrong again. There's an old saying about assumptions but I'll leave that up to you to research, or you could just take a stab at it as you seem to have quite a knack for that. My apologies. I'll rephrase. Criticising features you know nothing about in a thread about a question you contributed nothing to is spreading FUD and causing mail congestion. what exactly is your problem? from the information i gathered over time from this list i deduced qi was aimed at reading the kernel from /boot, not from the nand partition. together with qi does not understand jffs2 i simply infered it would not work with flash at all. No, you implied it was useless ... ending in something like 'imho'. turns out, that was wrong. now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. paul answered in a totally inappropriate way and you continue that way down. if all you want to say is i am great! i loathe you inferior creature -- you did it. as long you have nothing to contribute in terms of usefull information you can shut up now. Hah, what a hypocrite. Useless contribution is your forte! Mate, get a clue. I've seen you try and shut threads down in their infancy before the poster has received their desired outcome on more than one occasion. I don't purport to be better than anyone, to the contrary, I merely like to point out when someone is being a complete knob. There's another old saying ... 'practice what you preach' ... look it up. Cheers. Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 10:32:27AM +0200, arne anka wrote: now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. Qi can read the kernel from NAND simply because the kernel partition does not use a file system. We just just dump the kernel image there. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 21:15, Rask Ingemann Lambertsenr...@sygehus.dk wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 10:32:27AM +0200, arne anka wrote: now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. Qi can read the kernel from NAND simply because the kernel partition does not use a file system. We just just dump the kernel image there. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year What about using uboot_env partition to store boot options? (and reading it also by just dumping bytes) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. Qi can read the kernel from NAND simply because the kernel partition does not use a file system. We just just dump the kernel image there. from werner's explanation i understand why it is designed so, sd being the preferred storage. yet, i think it's a flaw not to support jffs2 -- but that's just my opinion. using the u-boot env as surrogate /boot/append*, as springs to mind and was suggested, sounds like a good idea -- but the beauty of the /boot//append* file is of course its easy access and modification. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 21:42, arne ankaopenm...@ginguppin.de wrote: now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. Qi can read the kernel from NAND simply because the kernel partition does not use a file system. We just just dump the kernel image there. from werner's explanation i understand why it is designed so, sd being the preferred storage. yet, i think it's a flaw not to support jffs2 -- but that's just my opinion. using the u-boot env as surrogate /boot/append*, as springs to mind and was suggested, sounds like a good idea -- but the beauty of the /boot//append* file is of course its easy access and modification. Well, something like cat /boot/append-GTA02 /dev/mtdblock2 should be enough to save modifications :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Replying to messages (Was: Fundamental Qi question)
On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 09:13:20PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: Now imagine i see a message from some person, with some ML (i'm subscribed to Cc'd). Also there's like 5 persons in Cc list, that are addressed explicitly because they have something to do with the topic (like they're subsystem maintainers, original authors or something like that). [cut] I'm smart enough to figure out that if someone replies to a list message without being sent a copy directly, then that person is on the list. Most lists don't even allow non-subscribers to post anyway. Additionally, I'm polite enough to try list-reply before group-reply when there are no non-subscriber addresses for group-reply to use. But if i press L and some of the Cc'd persons are not subscribed to the list (which is a very common situation for things involving different areas of interest, e.g. both alsa and arm) they will not receive my reply which is not what is intended. Either you have an unusually short memory or you knew perfectly well that Arne Anka was subscribed to the list and had no use for a direct copy. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Werner Almesberger wer...@openmoko.org wrote: NAND support is only there because of the GTA01/GTA02 legacy and it has limitations compared to SD. While technically possible to bring NAND support in Qi on par with SD, I think it would just make things more complicated and lure people into using NAND whereas SD is the future. In the GTA03 design, we would not have used NAND for anything but storing Qi and read-only factory data. Likewise, for gta02-core, I wouldn't consider using u-boot. Hi! I use the distribution on NAND as an SD card reader. I load the OS, connect to my laptop, and I write the new distro to the uSD card. It is impossible to do it on the same SD card, from where the OS is running. You cant simply repartition the uSD card. For me the NAND partition is a perfectly usable *backup/emergency* OS. Furthermore, I used recently TangoGPS, and it broke the filesystem where the maps were located. It broked every time when the phone runned out of battery. Quick summary: vfat broken - couldnt recover ext2 broken - couldnt recover ext3 broken - I could recover, but lost many files Luckely (thinking about any possibility before traveling), I had an OSM.tar file on the NAND with my backup OS, and I could reformat the SD card thousands kilometer away from my home without any computer or internet access. And I needed a map, because tangogps was all what I had.;) For me NAND is a musthave. I dont care about speed, or size. It is perfectly acceptable in *emergency* situation. I see only one alternativ: two uSD card slot. I think I made a fair point, so please save an emergency path. Relying only on uSD always require some third tool to recover. (eg: laptop with uSD card reader) Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 08:55:58AM +0200, Laszlo KREKACS wrote: Hi! I use the distribution on NAND as an SD card reader. I load the OS, connect to my laptop, and I write the new distro to the uSD card. It is impossible to do it on the same SD card, from where the OS is running. You cant simply repartition the uSD card. Hi! It would be really nice to have uSD slot accessible without removing back-cover, battery and SIM. Its easy to reformat or repair system on SD cart with laptop or PC.. but I always feel bad when I have to remove back-cover. How long can that plastic fixtures hold back-cover tight and reliably? I read somewhere that no change in slot is planned for gta02-core.. :/ so maybe for gta03.. -- uin:136542059jid:martin.ja...@gmail.com Jansa Martin sip:jama...@voip.wengo.fr JaMa ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Martin Jansa martin.ja...@gmail.com wrote: Its easy to reformat or repair system on SD cart with laptop or PC.. I dont have uSD card reader on my laptop. And I bought it 3 months ago. My previous laptop had SD card reader, but never worked with linux. (I would need an adapter anyway for it, one more thing to carry and losing) Dont like the idea of having a third tool just for using my phone. Other phones requires third tool, when you unlock them;-P And removing the black cover every time is clearly a no-go. Its a valid point. So this is two valid point now. But even if the sd card would be easier to remove, the backup (upgradable) OS is required in any way. Dont want to carry an additional computer+ card reader for my phone;-| Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
more complicated and lure people into using NAND whereas SD is the future. In the GTA03 design, we would not have used NAND for anything but storing Qi and read-only factory data. Likewise, for gta02-core, I wouldn't consider using u-boot. my experience is, that nand is far more reliable and robust than sd (which had recurring issues of data loss). thus i have the crucial data in nand (ie minimal necessary system -- /bin, /sbin, ...). additionally i lived under the impression that nand was faster. of course, both date from a few months ago, when i decided to to not run my entire system from sd any longer. with my holidays ahaed and thus some time to play around: - what reasons make you say, sd is the future? - what reasons, except the impossibility to replace the nand when it is worn out by to many write operations, led to the decision to use nand read-only? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
El Thursday, 4 de June de 2009 09:56:36 Martin Jansa va escriure: Its easy to reformat or repair system on SD cart with laptop or PC.. but I always feel bad when I have to remove back-cover. How long can that plastic fixtures hold back-cover tight and reliably? I have done it at least 600 times until now on my 1973 and I don't notice any losening. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
2009/6/4 Jose Luis Perez Diez perezd...@gmail.com: El Thursday, 4 de June de 2009 09:56:36 Martin Jansa va escriure: Its easy to reformat or repair system on SD cart with laptop or PC.. but I always feel bad when I have to remove back-cover. How long can that plastic fixtures hold back-cover tight and reliably? I have done it at least 600 times until now on my 1973 and I don't notice any losening. i noticed mine got looser within about ten times of opening it. at first it was a real pain to do - it needed a screwdriver, or similar. now i can do it with my finger nail very easily. thankfully it's not getting slacker though (i think) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Laszlo KREKACS wrote: I use the distribution on NAND as an SD card reader. Hmm, I think we have to distinguish between things you can do and things that actually make sense here ;-) Once you've started to fill the niches, it's always unpleasant to change. That's one reason why it's difficult to make architectural changes like switching from a NAND-centric approach to an SD-centric approach once a system has been deployed. But in a new system, features should be open to evaluation, and if one can accomplish the same tasks in a simpler and cheaper way, that only helps to make the product stronger. The problem with NAND is that it's no end of hassle. You need a complex boot loader to use if fully, you need an in-system recovery architecture, it needs special partitioning, you have to deal with unusual error patterns (factory-bad blocks and wear), etc. An SD-centric design does away with all this and brings the whole architecture much closer to what you find in a PC. I.e., the analogy SD == disk holds true for most purposes. So you don't need to learn a whole new set of methods and tools to perform routine tasks but you can just handle them exactly like you'd handle a PC. For your SD reader scenario, there are actually two solutions: - you can just have a small system on the SD card that boots into an initramfs. Once the system has been loaded, you can remove the card and insert another one. - USB microSD readers sell for USD 3 and make a nice addition to the travel accessories bag for each laptop that doesn't have an SD slot. and I write the new distro to the uSD card. It is impossible to do it on the same SD card, from where the OS is running. You cant simply repartition the uSD card. Why not ? Just get a big enough card and partition it before using it the first time. The total cost of a card with several GB is likely to be much lower than that of those few hundred MB of NAND. (It's not only the cost of the chip per se but also how this constrains the choice of packages, complicates sourcing, production, and all that.) Furthermore, I used recently TangoGPS, and it broke the filesystem where the maps were located. It broked every time when the phone runned out of battery. Hmm, frequent data loss looks like a problem that needs solving anyway, whether there is NAND or not. Does your user space attempt a shutdown when it notices an imminent low battery condition ? I see only one alternativ: two uSD card slot. That's actually an attractive feature anyway. Basically one acting like a hard disk and the other one like a USB stick. Thinking of it, you can actually do this already if you have a suitable cable, since the USB port can be switched to host mode. I think I made a fair point, so please save an emergency path. The design of a typical Qi system (whether NAND-free or not) should include a partition with an small user space for the boot menu and just this sort of recovery environment. There's no disagreement that you need this sort of functionality, there are just better ways to do it than to use NAND :-) Ah, and to recover from a truly catastrophic SD failure, there's always the option of carrying a backup card. There are also failure modes where you're much better off with SD than with NAND. E.g., if your device fails completely and needs to be replaced, you can't backup your NAND if your device is broken, while you can usually still remove your SD card and access it with another computer. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
arne anka wrote: - what reasons make you say, sd is the future? The main reasons are: - much easier handling. SD is like a disk, so you can use all the standard tools and get standard behaviour. NAND needs a lot of exceptional treatment to properly address wear and factory-bad blocks. I.e., you can't just pretend it's a regular disk but need special file systems, special tools, special partitioning, and all that. - the price/performance point of SD is set at the time you buy the SD card while that of NAND is set when the device is designed. So NAND always lags behind trends in capacity growth. - if all the data of a device is stored on SD, you have a lot more flexibility when moving data across systems. E.g., you could share a phone among people, use multiple phones with the same data, have completely separate work/personal or regular/travel environments, etc. - what reasons, except the impossibility to replace the nand when it is worn out by to many write operations, led to the decision to use nand read-only? The complexity of recovering from catastrophic NAND corruption. With GTA01, you needed the debug board. GTA02 has an expensive and (for most purposes) non-upgradeable NOR chip. With no valuable changeable state in the device, the whole issue of recovering a bricked device disappears, since you can just use a different/externally repaired SD. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Oh did I say that questioning Qi was spreading FUD and mail congestion? that's how i understood it. My apologies. I'll rephrase. Criticising features you know nothing about in a thread about a question you contributed nothing to is spreading FUD and causing mail congestion. what exactly is your problem? from the information i gathered over time from this list i deduced qi was aimed at reading the kernel from /boot, not from the nand partition. together with qi does not understand jffs2 i simply infered it would not work with flash at all. turns out, that was wrong. now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. paul answered in a totally inappropriate way and you continue that way down. if all you want to say is i am great! i loathe you inferior creature -- you did it. as long you have nothing to contribute in terms of usefull information you can shut up now. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: I booted from flash and SD card for quite some time. I think it's best to consider Qi as an SD-centric solution and to plan migrating towards SD. NAND support is only there because of the GTA01/GTA02 legacy and it has limitations compared to SD. While technically possible to bring NAND support in Qi on par with SD, I think it would just make things more complicated and lure people into using NAND whereas SD is the future. In the GTA03 design, we would not have used NAND for anything but storing Qi and read-only factory data. Likewise, for gta02-core, I wouldn't consider using u-boot. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Just to provide another data point for those in doubt, I run Qi with SHR on the NAND, and no uSD install. The only issue I have is that /boot on the NAND is not respected/read, but I can live with that. No additional configuration was required, I flashed Qi and it just worked. Kind regards, Cameron 'Toaster' Frazier ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Just to provide another data point for those in doubt, I run Qi with SHR on the NAND, and no uSD install. The only issue I have is that /boot on the NAND is not respected/read, but I can live with that. how does one add additional kernel arguments, which according to the wiki is done by creating a file /boot/append-GTA0[123]? oops, sorry. i forgot, questioning qi is spreading fud and causing mail congestion ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:19 AM, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: Just to provide another data point for those in doubt, I run Qi with SHR on the NAND, and no uSD install. The only issue I have is that /boot on the NAND is not respected/read, but I can live with that. how does one add additional kernel arguments, which according to the wiki is done by creating a file /boot/append-GTA0[123]? oops, sorry. i forgot, questioning qi is spreading fud and causing mail congestion ... Arne, My understanding is that not respecting the /boot/append-GTA0[123] is a NAND-only hardcoded limitation, since NAND has different partitions for ROOTFS and KERNEL. I suppose I could have been clearer before. Apologies. Honest questioning is never FUD, and honest answers are never a cause of mail congestion. Kind regards, Cameron 'Toaster' Frazier ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
My understanding is that not respecting the /boot/append-GTA0[123] is a NAND-only hardcoded limitation, since NAND has different partitions for ROOTFS and KERNEL. that's what i understood and i specifically looked into the wiki, to make sure i understood right. still, if /boot/ is not read, appending arguments is impossible. I suppose I could have been clearer before. Apologies. not necessary. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:28:07 pm Cameron Frazier wrote: My understanding is that not respecting the /boot/append-GTA0[123] is a NAND-only hardcoded limitation, since NAND has different partitions for ROOTFS and KERNEL. I suspect that it's more to do with the fact that Qi only understands ext2/ext3 and so can't mount a JFFS2 (or FAT) filesystem to look inside it. -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On 2/06/2009 11:19 PM, arne anka wrote: how does one add additional kernel arguments, which according to the wiki is done by creating a file /boot/append-GTA0[123]? oops, sorry. i forgot, questioning qi is spreading fud and causing mail congestion ... Oh did I say that questioning Qi was spreading FUD and mail congestion? My apologies. I'll rephrase. Criticising features you know nothing about in a thread about a question you contributed nothing to is spreading FUD and causing mail congestion. There we go, back in your box. You're a feisty one aren't you? Rhetorical btw. Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fundamental Qi question
Hi folks, Am I right in thinking that if you are using Qi and have flashed a JFFS2 image to your NAND which has a /boot with a kernel in it then it will boot that kernel in preference to the one that you have flashed directly with dfu-util ? cheers, Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Chris Samuel ch...@csamuel.org writes: Am I right in thinking that if you are using Qi and have flashed a JFFS2 image to your NAND which has a /boot with a kernel in it then it will boot that kernel in preference to the one that you have flashed directly with dfu-util ? No, Qi doesn't support jffs2. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de writes: No, Qi doesn't support jffs2. bummer. how's that -- it makes qi unusable for everybody using the internal flash as primary device and forces to boot from sd card. not sensible imo. How's that? Why don't you want to use the kernel flashed to dedicated nand partition? -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
No, Qi doesn't support jffs2. bummer. how's that -- it makes qi unusable for everybody using the internal flash as primary device and forces to boot from sd card. not sensible imo. How's that? Why don't you want to use the kernel flashed to dedicated nand partition? as far as i understood from the qi discussions, qi does not use that partition but looks for a specific file in a specific location, make the kernel nand partition unnecessary. so, if it can't read jffs2, one cannot boot from flash. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de writes: as far as i understood from the qi discussions, qi does not use that partition but looks for a specific file in a specific location, make the kernel nand partition unnecessary. so, if it can't read jffs2, one cannot boot from flash. You should have read Qi wiki page or Qi source code instead. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
You should have read Qi wiki page or Qi source code instead. well, i follow the discussion on the lists a long time. if that kind of information is not worth to be mentioned, i certainly do not expect it to be mentioned in either wiki or code. would you please stop, to cc me always and instead reply to the list as everybody else does? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:09:02 pm Paul Fertser wrote: No, Qi doesn't support jffs2. That's what I thought. But, in that case, how come my Om2009 phone boots into 2.6.29-rc2 (which is in /boot in the JFFS2 image) and not to the 2.6.28 image I've flashed to it ? Flashed with: dfu-util -d 0x1d50:0x5119 -a kernel -R -D uImage-2.6.28-stable+gitr0+f19f259d3c1afde8eae53983fd19f61831927413- r2-om-gta02.bin But boots into: Linux om-gta02 2.6.29-rc2 #1 PREEMPT Thu May 21 17:06:24 CEST 2009 armv4tl unknown Both are listed in okpg! r...@om-gta02:~# opkg list_installed | fgrep kernel | head kernel - 2.6.28-stable+gitr0+f19f259d3c1afde8eae53983fd19f61831927413-r2 - kernel-2.6.29-rc2 - 2.6.28-stable+gitr0+f19f259d3c1afde8eae53983fd19f61831927413-r2 - It's not coming off the SD card as that's a single partition with just the OSM tiles for TangoGPS on it. r...@om-gta02:~# ls /media/card/ lost+found Maps cheers, Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de writes: You should have read Qi wiki page or Qi source code instead. well, i follow the discussion on the lists a long time. if that kind of information is not worth to be mentioned, i certainly do not expect it to be mentioned in either wiki or code. Source code is what actually compiles to binary that then runs on device. So it's the ultimate source of information about what and how it is supposed to work. Any discussions on ML especially those filled with inaccurate conclusions drawn from nowhere can't get you any clear understanding of what the code actually does. would you please stop, to cc me always and instead reply to the list as everybody else does? I didn't CC you, i just directed my letters to you because i was answering to you and i kept ML CC'd for others to read. That's how MLs work. If you don't like it, don't use mailing lists. This time i altered headers just to show that i'm polite enough. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Chris Samuel ch...@csamuel.org writes: On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:09:02 pm Paul Fertser wrote: No, Qi doesn't support jffs2. That's what I thought. But, in that case, how come my Om2009 phone boots into 2.6.29-rc2 (which is in /boot in the JFFS2 image) and not to the 2.6.28 image I've flashed to it ? File name is wrong, the kernel is 2.6.29 actually. Look at the git hash. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Source code is what actually compiles to binary that then runs on device. So it's the ultimate source of information about what and how it is supposed to work. Any discussions on ML especially those filled with inaccurate conclusions drawn from nowhere can't get you any clear understanding of what the code actually does. in other words you aree saying i don't like writing documentations. and if you don't think that's the right attitusde, you are stuoid. would you please stop, to cc me always and instead reply to the list as everybody else does? I didn't CC you, i just directed my letters to you because i was answering to you and i kept ML CC'd for others to read. That's how MLs work. If you don't like it, don't use mailing lists. This time i altered headers just to show that i'm polite enough. apparently you never realized how _this_ mailinglist works! it has a default reply-to which is the list -- if you or your mail client are unable to cope with something more different than single click, no thinking required, you should probaly not use mailinglists at all. i certainly hope, your bad day is over soon and you are able to communicate like an intelligent being again. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:49:11 pm Paul Fertser wrote: File name is wrong, the kernel is 2.6.29 actually. Look at the git hash. Ahh, good call, eventually traced it to this to confirm that.. http://git.openmoko.org/?p=kernel.git;a=blob_plain;f=Makefile;hb=f19f259d3c1afde8eae53983fd19f61831927413 VERSION = 2 PATCHLEVEL = 6 SUBLEVEL = 29 EXTRAVERSION += -rc2 NAME = Erotic Pickled Herring Phew, so I'm not going mad! Thanks Paul. -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de writes: Source code is what actually compiles to binary that then runs on device. So it's the ultimate source of information about what and how it is supposed to work. Any discussions on ML especially those filled with inaccurate conclusions drawn from nowhere can't get you any clear understanding of what the code actually does. in other words you aree saying i don't like writing documentations. and if you don't think that's the right attitusde, you are stuoid. I don't like writing documentation, that's true. And i'm not obliged to do that. Nevertheless i did improved Qi wiki page a lot (read the history if you want); later improvements came directly from Andy. would you please stop, to cc me always and instead reply to the list as everybody else does? I didn't CC you, i just directed my letters to you because i was answering to you and i kept ML CC'd for others to read. That's how MLs work. If you don't like it, don't use mailing lists. This time i altered headers just to show that i'm polite enough. apparently you never realized how _this_ mailinglist works! it has a default reply-to which is the list -- if you or your mail client are unable to cope with something more different than single click, no thinking required, you should probaly not use mailinglists at all. My MUA is flexible enough to strip _forged_ Reply-To header that this list errorneously adds to every mail. So i'm perfectly aware how this fucking mailing list works and i had to explicitly workaround this stupidity. i certainly hope, your bad day is over soon and you are able to communicate like an intelligent being again. I certainly hope that you will start understand what i'm saying. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 04:07:10PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: My MUA is flexible enough to strip _forged_ Reply-To header that this list errorneously adds to every mail. So i'm perfectly aware how this fucking mailing list works and i had to explicitly workaround this stupidity. There's a header field for this purpose. Use it: List-Post: mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org In mutt, I just hit 'L' - list reply - and it figures it out. Of course, if you send a copy to someone directly, that header field is missing and the list server doesn't send a duplicate to the directly addressed recipient, who then has to manually edit the addresses when replying. So please don't put both the list and a person on the list in the To/Cc fields. -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Avoid duplicates on ML (was: Re: Fundamental Qi question)
Marcel tan...@googlemail.com writes: Am Montag, 1. Juni 2009 14:32:26 schrieb Paul Fertser: Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau maxpose...@gmail.com writes: My MUA is flexible enough to strip _forged_ Reply-To header that this list errorneously adds to every mail. So i'm perfectly aware how this fucking mailing list works and i had to explicitly workaround this stupidity. You still putting arne anka, in TO: and list in CC:, I agree with arne anka, that you should send mails(and reply-s) only TO: list. I said i did the wrong thing only once as a courtesy to arne. I won't do it again because it's plain wrong. If you don't want to find the proof yourself i will do that for you later. But i think you know me enough to understand that if i do it that way i have a good enough reason to do so. And if you look at any other sane ML out there (LAKML e.g.) you'll see everybody doing the same. I have often enough seen people on debian-user-german that actually *don't* want to be CCed because they read the list and therefore don't need a dedicated reply. To avoid getting duplicates (when a person sends a mail To or Cc you and the list at the same time) one just needs to set his personal preferences (and for most ML it's default to avoid duplicates), for mailman it's described in [1]. [1] http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node21.html -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
Rask Ingemann Lambertsen r...@sygehus.dk writes: On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 04:07:10PM +0400, Paul Fertser wrote: My MUA is flexible enough to strip _forged_ Reply-To header that this list errorneously adds to every mail. So i'm perfectly aware how this fucking mailing list works and i had to explicitly workaround this stupidity. There's a header field for this purpose. Use it: List-Post: mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org In mutt, I just hit 'L' - list reply - and it figures it out. Of course, if you send a copy to someone directly, that header field is missing and the list server doesn't send a duplicate to the directly addressed recipient, who then has to manually edit the addresses when replying. So please don't put both the list and a person on the list in the To/Cc fields. Now imagine i see a message from some person, with some ML (i'm subscribed to Cc'd). Also there's like 5 persons in Cc list, that are addressed explicitly because they have something to do with the topic (like they're subsystem maintainers, original authors or something like that). If i press g in mutt my To: header will be set to what was in Reply-To: (if the sender for some reason decided to set it for whatever reason) or to the From:. My Cc will be identical to those of original message. Everybody relevant to the topic will receive the message and in case some persons from that list were subscribed, they won't receive it twice because ML software will see them already in To or Cc and so will avoid sending a dup. But if i press L and some of the Cc'd persons are not subscribed to the list (which is a very common situation for things involving different areas of interest, e.g. both alsa and arm) they will not receive my reply which is not what is intended. So, basic rules are: 1. lists don't send duplicate mails to those already present in To or Cc. 2. not every person participating in conversation is subscribed and it's perfectly legal to post to most MLs without being subscribed (with proper spam protection in place (i'd require SPF PASS) it works without much troubles). My conclusion is: group reply aka reply-all is the right thing to do, other methods (Reply-To forgery or list reply) are wrong. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On 1/06/2009 9:14 PM, arne anka wrote: No, Qi doesn't support jffs2. bummer. how's that -- it makes qi unusable for everybody using the internal flash as primary device and forces to boot from sd card. not sensible imo. I booted from flash and SD card for quite some time. Your information is wrong and does not contribute to this thread in any way. Unless you have tested this, you are just spreading FUD and creating unnecessary email congestion ;) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
