Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Bastian Muck wrote: TMobile still has their "1000-minutes for $100" special going on, so I'll stock up later this evening. Wow, phoning is really expensive at your location. When you do some more tests it might be cheaper to make holidays in e.g. germany. I pay 30 € / month and can call T-Mobile and landline as much as I want to. If I paid for a monthly voice/data plan with TMobile, I'm sure I'd have more minutes to spare. With my AT&T plan, I pay $39.99 and have 450 daytime minutes and 5000 evening and weekend minutes per month, which is more than enough for my wife and I to use. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ian douglas schrieb: | Thanks for your thoughts, Marco. | | | Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: |> I agree, and we can't ask you more than testing like you're doing. | | As of today I have 165 minutes remaining of my 1,000 minute TMobile SIM card, so I'll have to restock it to do any more tests. I think TMobile still has their "1000-minutes for $100" special going on, so I'll stock up later this evening. Wow, phoning is really expensive at your location. When you do some more tests it might be cheaper to make holidays in e.g. germany. I pay 30 € / month and can call T-Mobile and landline as much as I want to. If I had a Freerunner then I would support you. But there is a little problem with this. :-( | |> The only thing I'm asking to you, Ian, is to report the GSM signal strength in your testing zone, just to complete the informations you've already given. | | Fair enough. I'll report on that when I get home as my office building is probably more shielded than my apartment. I live near the beach, no mountains to really speak of, and my AT&T phone, which was always showing EDGE connectivity at my old apartment always shows full-bandwidth "3G" at the new apartment, which is partly why I wanted to do some testing around my old apartment. | |> Anyway, I'll appreciate so much if another one of the lucky Freerunner owners could make a battery test (also just a "standby" one) in a place with low GSM coverage... | | As soon as my Freerunner is back to full-charge, I'll try to emulate Einstein's standby tests with all 4 components (GSM, WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS) turned on, then off, and report my own findings. I'll try to do it with both SIM cards, if that makes any difference, and without any SIM at all -- I'm curious if having no SIM card will emulate "low GSM coverage" with the phone trying to constantly register on a network. | | Since I have 5,000 evening/weekend minutes with AT&T, once I fill up my TMobile card again, I'll take my Freerunner and Blackjack 2 on errands this weekend, see if I can spend more than 6 hours connecting the two phones again in varying locations around Los Angeles. | | If anyone else has suggestions on how to test battery life, I'd love to hear them. Especially from Michael and Steve, as they can probably direct us a little better on what kinds of real-life scenario testing they'd like us to help in. | | I'm going to see if I can write a CPU-intensive script to run on the Freerunner too, see if I can time how long the battery will last with the CPU running 100% ... again, just a curiosity. | | -id | | | ___ | Openmoko community mailing list | community@lists.openmoko.org | http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIP/68lYiDScJJ+7QRAikZAJ9FgEhQyq/m5GoAV9Z+Lv72HSURgwCbBPyQ GEULazE2lKYp+iu6SJ8i+u8= =L3z7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Am Do 29. Mai 2008 schrieb Andy Green: |> Somebody in the thread at some point said: |> | Lasse Poulsen wrote: |> |> Also it would be nice to see how long call time you have if you talk |> |> continually (might i suggest an audio-book or to). If you don't i |> |> properly will (haven't got the device yet!) |> | |> | |> | Taking Lasse's advice, I set up a new test last night: |> |> Just a little point about these tests, AIUI the GPS stuff acts radically | s/GPS/GSM/ ;) Yeah. What it means is you can compare two tests done at the same location, but we can expect different results from the same phone when the test is done in another location. So A-B testing Freerunner against "Brand X" phone at the same location is a valid test and we can directly compare the results. But probably we will see mails from one guy saying his Freerunner with GSM on lasted n hours, another guy is n+2 hours, etc, instead of variation in Freerunner it can mean variation in the amount of effort the RF section has to do to talk in the two locations. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkg/x5kACgkQOjLpvpq7dModwgCggcAgO2OzZJGsDWXJhkSuh5NO PIMAn1DliiSGFdWzXxh3f8jqN+GxmNwF =+5X6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): Anyway, I'll appreciate so much if another one of the lucky Freerunner owners could make a battery test (also just a "standby" one) in a place with low GSM coverage... Standby doesn't vary with signal-strength. Just receiver is active (except T3210 every few hours), so it should be no difference. Ah... Thanks for the info. I thought this since my actual mobile battery really dies so slowly when I'm on places where there's good GSM coverage. But maybe it's due to something else! -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): > ian douglas wrote: > > I think that knowing a "best case scenario" (where you stay in the same > > location), you get about 6 hours of talk time, is still helpful. Cell > > phone manufacturers typically report a "best case scenario" when > > reporting talk time and standby time, with the legalese and fine print > > stating that "your results may vary" from their data. > > > > Thoughts? > > I agree, and we can't ask you more than testing like you're doing. > > Unfortunately I don't live always in places where's there's full GSM > signal strength (there are mountains, here! :P), so I already thought to > this issue, but I didn't hope in test in this scenario... > > The only thing I'm asking to you, Ian, is to report the GSM signal > strength in your testing zone, just to complete the informations you've > already given. > > Anyway, I'll appreciate so much if another one of the lucky Freerunner > owners could make a battery test (also just a "standby" one) in a place > with low GSM coverage... Standby doesn't vary with signal-strength. Just receiver is active (except T3210 every few hours), so it should be no difference. Talktime goes down with distance^2.5 I guess. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb AVee: > This test might not even be 'best case'. A better test would be having the Neo > really close to the cell tower for optimal conditions. I guess the difference > between testing far away from the cell tower and testing close to the tower > might be pretty big. There probably also is a difference between GSM900 and > GSM1800 (iirc 1800 has a lower range which needs to be compensated by higher > transmission power). Nope, 1800 has half the max output, which is compensated by closer grid of BS. Anyway I guess for "best case" it's no difference. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Thanks for your thoughts, Marco. Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: I agree, and we can't ask you more than testing like you're doing. As of today I have 165 minutes remaining of my 1,000 minute TMobile SIM card, so I'll have to restock it to do any more tests. I think TMobile still has their "1000-minutes for $100" special going on, so I'll stock up later this evening. The only thing I'm asking to you, Ian, is to report the GSM signal strength in your testing zone, just to complete the informations you've already given. Fair enough. I'll report on that when I get home as my office building is probably more shielded than my apartment. I live near the beach, no mountains to really speak of, and my AT&T phone, which was always showing EDGE connectivity at my old apartment always shows full-bandwidth "3G" at the new apartment, which is partly why I wanted to do some testing around my old apartment. Anyway, I'll appreciate so much if another one of the lucky Freerunner owners could make a battery test (also just a "standby" one) in a place with low GSM coverage... As soon as my Freerunner is back to full-charge, I'll try to emulate Einstein's standby tests with all 4 components (GSM, WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS) turned on, then off, and report my own findings. I'll try to do it with both SIM cards, if that makes any difference, and without any SIM at all -- I'm curious if having no SIM card will emulate "low GSM coverage" with the phone trying to constantly register on a network. Since I have 5,000 evening/weekend minutes with AT&T, once I fill up my TMobile card again, I'll take my Freerunner and Blackjack 2 on errands this weekend, see if I can spend more than 6 hours connecting the two phones again in varying locations around Los Angeles. If anyone else has suggestions on how to test battery life, I'd love to hear them. Especially from Michael and Steve, as they can probably direct us a little better on what kinds of real-life scenario testing they'd like us to help in. I'm going to see if I can write a CPU-intensive script to run on the Freerunner too, see if I can time how long the battery will last with the CPU running 100% ... again, just a curiosity. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
ian douglas wrote: I think that knowing a "best case scenario" (where you stay in the same location), you get about 6 hours of talk time, is still helpful. Cell phone manufacturers typically report a "best case scenario" when reporting talk time and standby time, with the legalese and fine print stating that "your results may vary" from their data. Thoughts? I agree, and we can't ask you more than testing like you're doing. Unfortunately I don't live always in places where's there's full GSM signal strength (there are mountains, here! :P), so I already thought to this issue, but I didn't hope in test in this scenario... The only thing I'm asking to you, Ian, is to report the GSM signal strength in your testing zone, just to complete the informations you've already given. Anyway, I'll appreciate so much if another one of the lucky Freerunner owners could make a battery test (also just a "standby" one) in a place with low GSM coverage... Thanks again! -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
On Thursday 29 May 2008 21:58, ian douglas wrote: > Andy Green wrote: > > | Taking Lasse's advice, I set up a new test last night: > > > > Just a little point about these tests, AIUI the GPS stuff acts radically > > differently in terms of current consumption depending on the distance > > from the base station. ... > I think that knowing a "best case scenario" (where you stay in the same > location), you get about 6 hours of talk time, is still helpful. Cell > phone manufacturers typically report a "best case scenario" when > reporting talk time and standby time, with the legalese and fine print > stating that "your results may vary" from their data. This test might not even be 'best case'. A better test would be having the Neo really close to the cell tower for optimal conditions. I guess the difference between testing far away from the cell tower and testing close to the tower might be pretty big. There probably also is a difference between GSM900 and GSM1800 (iirc 1800 has a lower range which needs to be compensated by higher transmission power). AVee -- When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute -- and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity. -- Albert Einstein ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Am Do 29. Mai 2008 schrieb ian douglas: > I think that knowing a "best case scenario" (where you stay in the same > location), you get about 6 hours of talk time, is still helpful. Cell > phone manufacturers typically report a "best case scenario" when > reporting talk time and standby time, with the legalese and fine print > stating that "your results may vary" from their data. > > Thoughts? I think *not* moving for all tests (and different types of cellphones to compare) is near a "best case" scenario for standby time - anyway place some sensitive radio or the like near the phone, to hear the typical interference noise when it is sending, just to make sure you don't sit on a "bad spot" where the phone changes cell every few minutes. For "best case" talktime scenarios the distance to basestation is much more important. Here you should check for *very* good RF-signal, means very near to BS and thus allowing the phone-transmitter to power down to lowest level. Also note that GSM without simcard is constantly reselecting cells, so energy consumption is really bad. Switch off GSM when not registering to a network. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Andy Green wrote: | Taking Lasse's advice, I set up a new test last night: Just a little point about these tests, AIUI the GPS stuff acts radically differently in terms of current consumption depending on the distance from the base station. I'm assuming you meant "GSM" not "GPS", so as I understand your point, a better test would be actually having the Neo move around geographically to hop to/from different cell towers, and that a test like this will give more realistic battery usage statistics? In theory, it sounds very reasonable if it will draw varying amount of current from the battery. Thanks for the idea. Given the cost of gasoline these days, though much lower than in Europe, I'm not sure spending two tanks of gas to drive around for 4-6 hours to achieve more usage stats will be feasible. I think that knowing a "best case scenario" (where you stay in the same location), you get about 6 hours of talk time, is still helpful. Cell phone manufacturers typically report a "best case scenario" when reporting talk time and standby time, with the legalese and fine print stating that "your results may vary" from their data. Thoughts? -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Am Do 29. Mai 2008 schrieb Andy Green: > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > | Lasse Poulsen wrote: > |> Also it would be nice to see how long call time you have if you talk > |> continually (might i suggest an audio-book or to). If you don't i > |> properly will (haven't got the device yet!) > | > | > | Taking Lasse's advice, I set up a new test last night: > > Just a little point about these tests, AIUI the GPS stuff acts radically s/GPS/GSM/ ;) > differently in terms of current consumption depending on the distance > from the base station. All we can reasonably do is compare same-tester > results for their different phones from the same physical location. Yep! exactly, due to tx-power calibration, cell-handover etc. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Lasse Poulsen wrote: |> Also it would be nice to see how long call time you have if you talk |> continually (might i suggest an audio-book or to). If you don't i |> properly will (haven't got the device yet!) | | | Taking Lasse's advice, I set up a new test last night: Just a little point about these tests, AIUI the GPS stuff acts radically differently in terms of current consumption depending on the distance from the base station. All we can reasonably do is compare same-tester results for their different phones from the same physical location. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkg+9EcACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpslACdH6bGOPNwScfU0UgjoiR/kUDh bgAAn2Vtt/O8ZhkgpiT8X6g3iEgEhwSa =ctuM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Lasse Poulsen wrote: Also it would be nice to see how long call time you have if you talk continually (might i suggest an audio-book or to). If you don't i properly will (haven't got the device yet!) Taking Lasse's advice, I set up a new test last night: I fully charged my Freerunner, inserted the TMobile SIM card, and set it beside my computer speakers with Amarok looping some of my more rockin' tunes. I made sure the only thing left 'on' on the Freerunner was the GSM modem (wifi which is on by default, was turned off). I also enabled power-saving (dim, no lock -- but it locks anyway) I called it from my AT&T phone, which I plugged in next to my TV and watched two full movies from Netflix and 3 episodes of The Dead Zone. In that span, where both phones would have audio to play back and forth to one another, my AT&T phone beeped after 3 hours, 51 minutes and 11 seconds that the connection was broken. I immediately redialed the Freerunner, and since it was already at about 90 minutes into the second call, I went to bed. I got up this morning to see that my AT&T phone ended the call after 2 hours, 11 minutes and 21 seconds. I figured this went one of two ways -- the Freerunner ran out of battery power, or I ran out of minutes from TMobile. My TMobile SIM card was a 1,000-minute pay-as-you-go SIM, which is about 16.7 hours of talk time, which I've only ever used for my Freerunner tests ... so having only three 3:51:00 phone calls (give or take a few minutes) and one 2:11:21 call that I still have plenty of minutes left on my SIM card, and sure enough -- the battery on the Freerunner was completely dead. (as a side note, it's nice to see that a deeply discharged Freerunner doesn't have the same issue as the GTA01 where you have to charge it for an hour before anything shows on the screen) Since I have TMobile minutes left, I'll finally get around to testing the phone from various alternate locations this coming weekend with the TMobile SIM, and I'll swap it out for the AT&T SIM if needed. To recap: - GSM turned on - wifi turned off - bluetooth turned off - gps turned off - power saving enabled (dim, no lock) - total talk time of 6:02:32 with constant audio on both sides of the 'conversation' Hope this helps. More tests to come, stay tuned! And thanks to those who sent messages (and Steve confirming on the list) that my Freerunner is NOT running the ASU stack. I've watched the YouTube video of the ASU stack and it's completely different. My bad. Ian Douglas (not Ian Darwin) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
On Wed, 28 May 2008 22:40:27 -0700 Matt Mets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > to correct - just backspace! :) (left slide). the magnifying thing is > > possible > > - but somehow i saw it as superfluous as chances are u press and release > > very fast like a keypress on a normal keyboard and then notice the mistake. > > even so > > - the dictionary lookup will be correcting if it's in the dictionary and not > > too far of a typo (press too far away from intended key). admittedly the > > dictionary we ship has only 5000 words - but hey. it's a simple text > > file. :) > Ok, keeping that in mind, pressing in the general area and using the > word lookup feature seems to work pretty well with a finger. At least i > have been able to put in some simple phrases quite easily. that's the main idea - that it is pretty usable even with fingers (within touchscreen limitations - ie - don't press hard enough and it won't register a press). it's meant to have a wide margin of error so it can correct your mis-hits to be what you intended. as with all things - it's a guess. it's never perfect, but humans definitely are not perfect (if we were we'd be able to hit the touchscreen with pixel-level accuracy! :)). > > horizontal is for quick selecting the most likely matches for correction > > (or if no matches - exactly what you typed), and if it doesn't fit u can > > access ALL matches from the popup list. > > > One other thing I noticed was that the widget for the popup window > covers up the leftmost horizontal match or two, making it impossible to > select them. i know. spotted that. fixed already in svn a few days back. :) > > it's possible we can do this - in svn there is even a full qwerty kbd > > layout i initially used - with ctrl, alt, etc. for terminal junkies, BUT > > for now correction is always-on. > > > Here is a funny idea: how about replacing the word lookup with > bash-style command completion when in the terminal? That could be > really cool! Maybe the word lookup feature already has an interface > that can be hooked into. I could see it being useful for auto-completing > really any application-specific data as well. :-D For example, maybe in > the dialer program to show your closest contacts that match the number > (one of my favorite features of the GTK-dialer). already considered. not now, but later, allow the application to hint things like: please use dictionary name: "en" (english) or "de" (german) or "shell" (a shell dictionary that includes all the commands in $PATH and common options and so on) and the layout can be different for "shell" mode (request a shell layout, not the default or numeric" etc. etc. - but of course all to be done over time. can't do everything on day 0. but have enough there so this can be expanded. allow for custom dictionaries to be generated from other personal data (contact lists etc.) and later even abstract out dictionary engines maybe to a dbus service, abstract out keyboard ui handling to modules etc. etc. - so each element of a keybard is its own abstracted unit that can be plugged-in. right now its a big blob of stuff - but i do intend to abstract it and make the barrier of entry to write just part of a keyboard (and not have to write the whole thing if you don't want to) to b4e easy. move as much into config files as possible and not require code (eg keyboard layouts are right now just text config files - as are dictionary files along with frequency of use info). i'm a big fan of making as much a config option as possible. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 28 May 2008 19:14:46 -0400 Matt Mets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: Matt Mets wrote: I tried out the ASU software update on my GTA01 tonight, and took a short video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ISHrtuQuGM Cool video! Thanks! The keyboard seems quite nice, and worked well with a stylus (better than the video might suggest, I was working around the camera). What about the finger usability? AFAIK the Qtopia predictive keyboard has been projected also to help in finger usability... I wasn't able to use the keyboard with my finger. Once a letter is pressed, you can't slide to a neighboring letter to change it, so it was difficult to correct mistakes. There was a different keyboard on the original Qtopia builds that had a magnifying-key feature that seemed to make this easier. It is entirely possible that I missed something here though. I do like the gesture support (slide left to backspace, forward to insert space, down for enter, up to switch keyboards), but I would like to see something that indicates that gestures are being performed (perhaps a line that shows a trail of where your finger has been?). to correct - just backspace! :) (left slide). the magnifying thing is possible - but somehow i saw it as superfluous as chances are u press and release very fast like a keypress on a normal keyboard and then notice the mistake. even so - the dictionary lookup will be correcting if it's in the dictionary and not too far of a typo (press too far away from intended key). admittedly the dictionary we ship has only 5000 words - but hey. it's a simple text file. :) Ok, keeping that in mind, pressing in the general area and using the word lookup feature seems to work pretty well with a finger. At least i have been able to put in some simple phrases quite easily. The predictive keyboard bit might help but I haven't become proficient with it yet. It seemed weird that it shows two lists of possible words (one horizontal across the top of the keyboard, one in a dropdown box). horizontal is for quick selecting the most likely matches for correction (or if no matches - exactly what you typed), and if it doesn't fit u can access ALL matches from the popup list. One other thing I noticed was that the widget for the popup window covers up the leftmost horizontal match or two, making it impossible to select them. Also, when running a regular X application (remote xterm), it seemed like I had to press enter (or tab) to get the characters to be sent to the app, which made it very difficult to enter things into the terminal. But usability in actual phone-apps is probably more important :-D. Perhaps a direct-input mode is/could be implemented for that sort of application. it's possible we can do this - in svn there is even a full qwerty kbd layout i initially used - with ctrl, alt, etc. for terminal junkies, BUT for now correction is always-on. Here is a funny idea: how about replacing the word lookup with bash-style command completion when in the terminal? That could be really cool! Maybe the word lookup feature already has an interface that can be hooked into. I could see it being useful for auto-completing really any application-specific data as well. :-D For example, maybe in the dialer program to show your closest contacts that match the number (one of my favorite features of the GTK-dialer). The whole interface was very smooth though. I'm suddenly much more optimistic about the project! -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Am Do 29. Mai 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: > it's possible we can do this - in svn there is even a full qwerty kbd layout i > initially used - with ctrl, alt, etc. for terminal junkies, BUT for now > correction is always-on. U made my day. :-) Just wondering how long it takes til there's a howto that will take less than one day to build my own personalized image /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
On Thu, 29 May 2008 03:47:41 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > you are not supposed to correct each single keystroke - just like on T9. > Simply type ahead and *in the end* select from list the word you tried to > type, probably that's nearest to _all_ of your physical keystrokes PLUS some > recent/most-used-factor. > > If I got that right, Raster? correct - just keep typing the whole word. stop worring about correct until you are done with the word (unless the correction list reduces down to 1 entry only which is not what you want - that will be when what you typed is not in the dict and it displays just raw what u typed). then u need to worry :) but again - it learns as u type so words only need be used once before they get a dict entry in your personal user dict. over time all your own vocab should go in. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
you are not supposed to correct each single keystroke - just like on T9. Simply type ahead and *in the end* select from list the word you tried to type, probably that's nearest to _all_ of your physical keystrokes PLUS some recent/most-used-factor. If I got that right, Raster? /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
On Wed, 28 May 2008 19:14:46 -0400 Matt Mets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > >Matt Mets wrote: > >> I tried out the ASU software update on my GTA01 tonight, and took a > >> short video of it: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ISHrtuQuGM > > > >Cool video! > > Thanks! > > >> The keyboard seems quite nice, and worked well with a stylus (better > >> than the video might suggest, I was working around the camera). > > > >What about the finger usability? > >AFAIK the Qtopia predictive keyboard has been projected also to help in > >finger usability... > > I wasn't able to use the keyboard with my finger. Once a letter is pressed, > you can't slide to a neighboring letter to change it, so it was difficult to > correct mistakes. There was a different keyboard on the original Qtopia > builds that had a magnifying-key feature that seemed to make this easier. It > is entirely possible that I missed something here though. I do like the > gesture support (slide left to backspace, forward to insert space, down for > enter, up to switch keyboards), but I would like to see something that > indicates that gestures are being performed (perhaps a line that shows a > trail of where your finger has been?). to correct - just backspace! :) (left slide). the magnifying thing is possible - but somehow i saw it as superfluous as chances are u press and release very fast like a keypress on a normal keyboard and then notice the mistake. even so - the dictionary lookup will be correcting if it's in the dictionary and not too far of a typo (press too far away from intended key). admittedly the dictionary we ship has only 5000 words - but hey. it's a simple text file. :) > The predictive keyboard bit might help but I haven't become proficient with > it yet. It seemed weird that it shows two lists of possible words (one > horizontal across the top of the keyboard, one in a dropdown box). horizontal is for quick selecting the most likely matches for correction (or if no matches - exactly what you typed), and if it doesn't fit u can access ALL matches from the popup list. > Also, when running a regular X application (remote xterm), it seemed like I > had to press enter (or tab) to get the characters to be sent to the app, > which made it very difficult to enter things into the terminal. But > usability in actual phone-apps is probably more important :-D. Perhaps a > direct-input mode is/could be implemented for that sort of application. it's possible we can do this - in svn there is even a full qwerty kbd layout i initially used - with ctrl, alt, etc. for terminal junkies, BUT for now correction is always-on. > The whole interface was very smooth though. I'm suddenly much more > optimistic about the project! > > >-- > >Treviño's World - Life and Linux > >http://www.3v1n0.net/ > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
>Matt Mets wrote: >> I tried out the ASU software update on my GTA01 tonight, and took a >> short video of it: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ISHrtuQuGM > >Cool video! Thanks! >> The keyboard seems quite nice, and worked well with a stylus (better >> than the video might suggest, I was working around the camera). > >What about the finger usability? >AFAIK the Qtopia predictive keyboard has been projected also to help in >finger usability... I wasn't able to use the keyboard with my finger. Once a letter is pressed, you can't slide to a neighboring letter to change it, so it was difficult to correct mistakes. There was a different keyboard on the original Qtopia builds that had a magnifying-key feature that seemed to make this easier. It is entirely possible that I missed something here though. I do like the gesture support (slide left to backspace, forward to insert space, down for enter, up to switch keyboards), but I would like to see something that indicates that gestures are being performed (perhaps a line that shows a trail of where your finger has been?). The predictive keyboard bit might help but I haven't become proficient with it yet. It seemed weird that it shows two lists of possible words (one horizontal across the top of the keyboard, one in a dropdown box). Also, when running a regular X application (remote xterm), it seemed like I had to press enter (or tab) to get the characters to be sent to the app, which made it very difficult to enter things into the terminal. But usability in actual phone-apps is probably more important :-D. Perhaps a direct-input mode is/could be implemented for that sort of application. The whole interface was very smooth though. I'm suddenly much more optimistic about the project! >-- >Treviño's World - Life and Linux >http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Matt Mets wrote: I tried out the ASU software update on my GTA01 tonight, and took a short video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ISHrtuQuGM Cool video! The keyboard seems quite nice, and worked well with a stylus (better than the video might suggest, I was working around the camera). What about the finger usability? AFAIK the Qtopia predictive keyboard has been projected also to help in finger usability... -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
I tried out the ASU software update on my GTA01 tonight, and took a short video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ISHrtuQuGM The interface seems really responsive, way better than the GTK version. The keyboard seems quite nice, and worked well with a stylus (better than the video might suggest, I was working around the camera). There are a bunch of little glitches in the graphics, and most of the applications seem to be nonexistent. The sliding interface seems odd, however I will reserve judgment on it for now. Cheers, Matt Kevin Dean wrote: Yeah, there are GTA01 images for the ASU, I've tested them. Not too much to report, ASU is almost totally non-functional but it gives a good view of it's potential. I planned on doing video over this weekend but I got sick for the first time in almost three years. *growls* On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Lorn Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: steve wrote: Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will. However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP. So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it. and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software. Actually, I believe they started making images for gta01 as well. http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/ They are the Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image files. Be sure to also update your kernel. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
0n Tue, May 27, 2008 at 06:15:14PM -0400, Kevin Dean wrote: >I planned on doing video over this weekend but I got sick for the >first time in almost three years. *growls* Can you please post to this list when you have done it :) With in the Subject the word "video". Looking forward to it! -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: My experience with the Freerunner
Yes, but I haven't reviewed it so I don't want to make representations or promises. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lorn Potter Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:48 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: My experience with the Freerunner steve wrote: > Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will. > > However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP. > > So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it. > and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software. Actually, I believe they started making images for gta01 as well. http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/ They are the Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image files. Be sure to also update your kernel. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Yeah, there are GTA01 images for the ASU, I've tested them. Not too much to report, ASU is almost totally non-functional but it gives a good view of it's potential. I planned on doing video over this weekend but I got sick for the first time in almost three years. *growls* On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Lorn Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > steve wrote: >> >> Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will. >> >> However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP. >> So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it. >> and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software. > > Actually, I believe they started making images for gta01 as well. > http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/ > > They are the Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image files. > > Be sure to also update your kernel. > > > > > -- > Lorn 'ljp' Potter > Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner (was: Any Stats on Batterylife....)
Wow, that actually looks better then I expected. According to
PhoneScoop, my Nokia E51 has a talk time of 4 hours or so. Although
I'm not too sure if this is with UMTS or GSM, and I can't really test
as there is no such thing as free calling here.
Cheers,
Federico
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 9:13 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Talk time is an interesting metric.
>
> It would be cool to see how "claimed" talk times correspond with measured
> talk times.
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:47 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: My experience with the Freerunner (was: Any Stats on
> Batterylife)
>
> I'm also doing some testing on a Freerunner for Michael and Steve, and I
> have one thing to share about battery life.
>
> With the ASU software, with no power saving at all, I placed a phone
> call to my Freerunner with a T-Mobile SIM from an AT&T phone. There was
> no audio, just two phones sitting side by side. The next morning, of
> course, the Freerunner was completely drained (my AT&T phone was plugged
> into its charger). The phone call lasted 3 hours and 52 minutes -- just
> shy of 4 full hours.
>
> I'm running another test right now with power saving turned on (dimming,
> no locking), to see if that has any additional impact on call life.
> There's also minor audio going on, as my wife is in the office/nursery
> building some cabinets for the baby we're expecting in October.
>
> Once these, and a few other power-related tests are done, I plan to
> travel around Los Angeles a little, testing the tri-band coverage in
> various areas of the city.
>
> I've written a few notes to Michael off-list about the ASU software, but
> wanted to share that of the various test calls I've made to/from land
> lines, VoIP lines (with Vonage) and various cell phones on AT&T and
> Verizon to the Freerunner with both AT&T and TMobile SIM cards, I've
> only had a single call with no outgoing audio. The SMS software is very
> basic, but complete (no MMS tested yet).
>
> The terminal application is usable, but the new keyboard isn't terribly
> useful as there are no slash ('/') or pipe ('|') characters which are
> pretty necessary for using a command line.
>
> I'm also ordering an 8GB SDHC micro SD card to test some 8GB storage
> usaes. So far the 512MB micro SD that shipped with the phone works
> great. I'll test it with a 2GB non-SDHC micro SD when this next phone
> battery test is complete.
>
> Since others have covered the packaging and accessories, I won't bother
> to echo their notes too.
>
> More later,
> Ian Douglas
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
___
Openmoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
steve wrote: Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will. However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP. So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it. and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software. Actually, I believe they started making images for gta01 as well. http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/ They are the Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image files. Be sure to also update your kernel. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: My experience with the Freerunner (was: Any Stats on Batterylife....)
Talk time is an interesting metric.
It would be cool to see how "claimed" talk times correspond with measured
talk times.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:47 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: My experience with the Freerunner (was: Any Stats on
Batterylife)
I'm also doing some testing on a Freerunner for Michael and Steve, and I
have one thing to share about battery life.
With the ASU software, with no power saving at all, I placed a phone
call to my Freerunner with a T-Mobile SIM from an AT&T phone. There was
no audio, just two phones sitting side by side. The next morning, of
course, the Freerunner was completely drained (my AT&T phone was plugged
into its charger). The phone call lasted 3 hours and 52 minutes -- just
shy of 4 full hours.
I'm running another test right now with power saving turned on (dimming,
no locking), to see if that has any additional impact on call life.
There's also minor audio going on, as my wife is in the office/nursery
building some cabinets for the baby we're expecting in October.
Once these, and a few other power-related tests are done, I plan to
travel around Los Angeles a little, testing the tri-band coverage in
various areas of the city.
I've written a few notes to Michael off-list about the ASU software, but
wanted to share that of the various test calls I've made to/from land
lines, VoIP lines (with Vonage) and various cell phones on AT&T and
Verizon to the Freerunner with both AT&T and TMobile SIM cards, I've
only had a single call with no outgoing audio. The SMS software is very
basic, but complete (no MMS tested yet).
The terminal application is usable, but the new keyboard isn't terribly
useful as there are no slash ('/') or pipe ('|') characters which are
pretty necessary for using a command line.
I'm also ordering an 8GB SDHC micro SD card to test some 8GB storage
usaes. So far the 512MB micro SD that shipped with the phone works
great. I'll test it with a 2GB non-SDHC micro SD when this next phone
battery test is complete.
Since others have covered the packaging and accessories, I won't bother
to echo their notes too.
More later,
Ian Douglas
___
Openmoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
___
Openmoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: My experience with the Freerunner
Ian, There are two different software loads. Out of the box you should have Openhand Apps running on GTK. That is the BASE functionality. dialer, sms, contacts. The future software stack is available from Michael. Entirely different monster. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:05 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: My experience with the Freerunner Kevin Dean wrote: > You mentioned "power saving" twice on the ASU and mention "dim then > lock". If I understand it correctly, ASU is the Qtopia based stack > that includes Illume, Diversity, Campwifi et cetera. There's no "dim > then lock" setting on that stack. Exposure doesn't have any power > settings that I know of. > > Is this a confusion on my part, or are you testing something other than the ASU? I'm using whatever software was installed on the phone, which I understand to be the ASU stack -- all that's installed on the phone is a dialer, SMS application, terminal application, a screenshot capture and contact list manager. When you hold the power button for a few seconds, you see a menu where you can turn on/off the GSM modem (default: on), GPS (default: off), bluetooth (default: off), wifi (default: on), then a drop-down list of three power settings: - no power saving at all - dim without locking (which as I understand locks it anyway) - dim with locking Ian Douglas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: My experience with the Freerunner
Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will. However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP. So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it. and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software. maybe Kevin Dean or the Ians can make some vids of ASU. -OrThe phone will iginal Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nickd Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:43 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: My experience with the Freerunner Sounds expensive Ian! Keep up the good research ;) As for the OS, wouldn't it be the GTK frozen snapshot (pre QT)? Steve said the ASU was at a pre-Alpha stage and I can't see it going out on the sample phones unless you've updated it yourself recently. If it's not the case then mea culpa. -Nick ian douglas wrote: > ian douglas wrote: >> With the ASU software, with no power saving at all, I placed a phone >> call to my Freerunner with a T-Mobile SIM from an AT&T phone. There >> was no audio, just two phones sitting side by side. The next morning, >> of course, the Freerunner was completely drained (my AT&T phone was >> plugged into its charger). The phone call lasted 3 hours and 52 >> minutes -- just shy of 4 full hours. >> >> I'm running another test right now with power saving turned on >> (dimming, no locking), to see if that has any additional impact on >> call life. > > To follow up, the second phone call hung up after 3 hours and 54 > minutes -- only a two minute saving, but the Freerunner's battry icon > still showed lots of power available, instead of being completely > drained like my test with power saving turned off. > > Since the call ended about the same amount of time as my test last > night (236 minutes vs 234 minutes), I'm curious if either AT&T or > TMobile simply kill a phone call just shy of 4 hours of talk time to > free up their network. > > To solve that riddle, I'll try both my AT&T SIM card and TMobile SIM > card in the Freerunner and call it from my Vonage VoIP line, see if I > can narrow down what killed the call. > > My speculation at this point is that the 3 hour 52 minute call last > night that drained my battery might not have drained the Freerunner's > battery completely, but that the phone just ran out of power at some > point after the phone call because power saving was turned off. > > Stay tuned, > Ian Douglas > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
On Mon, 26 May 2008 21:27:05 -0700 ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My speculation at this point is that the 3 hour 52 minute call last > night that drained my battery might not have drained the Freerunner's > battery completely, but that the phone just ran out of power at some > point after the phone call because power saving was turned off. > It might be that there is no sound for n minutes and then the operator/switchboard thinks thant you simply forgot to hang up or something thous freeing the line. Also it would be nice to see how long call time you have if you talk continually (might i suggest an audio-book or to). If you don't i properly will (haven't got the device yet!) If you live in an area where the network is subject to heavy load i think the service provider just might disconnect you call if a more important one comes along like a 112/911 call. I'm not a phone phreak (yet!) this is just my 2¢ - Lasse ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My experience with the Freerunner
Would there be a problem with doing two (or more) calls in series and just adding up the time of each call? I would be impressed if the battery survived through two near four hour calls. Just be sure to start the second call shortly after the first one finishes. > > On Tue, May 27, 2008 5:27 am, ian douglas wrote: >> ian douglas wrote: >> >> Since the call ended about the same amount of time as my test last night >> (236 minutes vs 234 minutes), I'm curious if either AT&T or TMobile >> simply kill a phone call just shy of 4 hours of talk time to free up >> their network. > > That sounds likely. > > With GSM the cost of a call is only calculated once the call completes, if > there is no limit on the length of call, someone who steals a GSM phone, > can keep a call going for several days, and the network only finds out > when they hang up. If the call is to an expensive international > destination ($2 per minute) The cost to the network could be high. Because > of this most networks limit the length of calls. > > The details of the scam are described in chapter 17 of "Security > Engineering" by Ross Anderson. You can download a PDF copy from this page: > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html > > Back to your test, As far as I know there is no limit on the length of > calls from landlines, so one solution would be to call the Freerunner from > an landline. > > The other option would be to do what phone manufacturers do, which is to > measure the current drain from the battery, and calculate the talk time > from the battery capacity. Don't forget to be unreasonably optimistic > about signal strength, and battery life. :-) > > -- > David Pottage > > Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
