Re: Private data protection.
This is more what I was thinking. Most folks have a trusted system, some where with remote access. At work, a friends', perhaps someplace akin to google docs. You find a computer and send your phone the wipe code. Or the lock up tight and phone home code, or even the delete the private stuff, act like a new phone and keep sending me your location code. On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Philippe Guillebert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilja O. wrote: Who says that this password will be created by human? Program should generate it automatically, shows it to user, user writes (or prints) it and saves in piggy bank hoping he will not need it at all. This function will be used so rare that there is not point in creating rememberable passwords. Hi, And then, when he doesn't have the neo anymore, he have to find where the he put the code, run to a friend's with the piece of paper, hey can I send an SMS ?, copy 160 random characters from a piece of paper with a crappy input method on the friend's phone and hope he didn't misspell a single bit of it or the whole process would be useless. Yeah, sounds very doable... You can store this in file. Or we append simple hash to key itself. Remembering one more password is much worse (it becomes even worser when you remember that this password will be used (at most) only one time. Who will be able to remember such password for an event with such probability?). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Esben Stien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The very first thing a phone thief does is throw away the SIM. That's why, if a presence security code is not typed in every nth hour, the phone starts transmitting secretly its location over all available networks to your home system;). We need GNU radio in this device, so that we can implement a tracking beacon way to find the phone. Also portable self-destruction hardware would be nice. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Esben Stien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The very first thing a phone thief does is throw away the SIM. That's why, if a presence security code is not typed in every nth hour, the phone starts transmitting secretly its location over all available networks to your home system;). Current phone number would be enough information. SMS to a friend that gives this number to you... Also it must do so every on poweron event. E.g. if phone haven't been shacked the right way. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The very first thing a phone thief does is throw away the SIM. That's why, if a presence security code is not typed in every nth hour, the phone starts transmitting secretly its location over all available networks to your home system;). We need GNU radio in this device, so that we can implement a tracking beacon way to find the phone. -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 10:55 +0300, Ilja O. wrote: Also portable self-destruction hardware would be nice. echo overload /sys/devices/blaha/battery signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Ilja O. wrote: Who says that this password will be created by human? Program should generate it automatically, shows it to user, user writes (or prints) it and saves in piggy bank hoping he will not need it at all. This function will be used so rare that there is not point in creating rememberable passwords. Hi, And then, when he doesn't have the neo anymore, he have to find where the he put the code, run to a friend's with the piece of paper, hey can I send an SMS ?, copy 160 random characters from a piece of paper with a crappy input method on the friend's phone and hope he didn't misspell a single bit of it or the whole process would be useless. Yeah, sounds very doable... -- Phyce ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Am So 1. Juni 2008 schrieb Kim Alvefur: On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 10:55 +0300, Ilja O. wrote: Also portable self-destruction hardware would be nice. echo overload /sys/devices/blaha/battery LOL :-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Good info there from wiki. So, if someone were THAT (9 days) serious about getting the data, he might as well re-flash the whole phone to avoid any trace-backs, destroy root-kits etc. I know I would do that. Which again brings us back to the same point, as the thread says... of DATA protection and not the phone itself. If I am a data thief why will I bother keeping the SD card on the phone. I will simply take it out, put it in my memory card reader and start hacking it. The only way I wont be able to get it (easily) if the data on the SD card itself was hidden/encrypted/unreadable. We have to isolate the phone from data here. Rahul J On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm no security expert but I'm pretty sure a lightweight 8 bit salt encryption (security guys?) can give any dektop pc software enough trouble to abort the attempt of trying to read a 256 meg worth of datacard, unless it really belongs to the director operations FBI ;) shamelesly edited copy from wikipedia Assume a user's secret key is stolen and he is known to use one of 200,000 English words as his password. The system uses a 8-bit salt. The amount of combinations is 256*20 = 5120. /shamelesly copy from wikipedia If attacker chacks one hash per second and has 64-core beowulf cluster it will require 9 days to check all possible combinations. That's not so much, imo. Also, processors are cheap these days one guy [1] has build 96-core machine (for unknown price). [1] http://helmer.sfe.se/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Philippe Guillebert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilja O. wrote: Who says that this password will be created by human? Program should generate it automatically, shows it to user, user writes (or prints) it and saves in piggy bank hoping he will not need it at all. This function will be used so rare that there is not point in creating rememberable passwords. Hi, And then, when he doesn't have the neo anymore, he have to find where the he put the code, run to a friend's with the piece of paper, hey can I send an SMS ?, copy 160 random characters from a piece of paper with a crappy input method on the friend's phone and hope he didn't misspell a single bit of it or the whole process would be useless. Yeah, sounds very doable... You can store this in file. Or we append simple hash to key itself. Remembering one more password is much worse (it becomes even worser when you remember that this password will be used (at most) only one time. Who will be able to remember such password for an event with such probability?). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Current phone number would be enough information. SMS to a friend that gives this number to you... It's like being at a party and your lighter is gone. You need a homing device to pin point which pocket it's in;). Maybe another solution here is to have an RFID on it, so you can swipe everybodys' pockets;). -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Esben Stien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Current phone number would be enough information. SMS to a friend that gives this number to you... It's like being at a party and your lighter is gone. You need a homing device to pin point which pocket it's in;). Maybe another solution here is to have an RFID on it, so you can swipe everybodys' pockets;). And portable thermonuclear bomb. Just in case. (Well, phone is already hand interface to several orbital atomic clocks, isn't it?) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
The very first thing a phone thief does is throw away the SIM. No SIM, No SMS, No protection.. erm.. destruction :) Rahul J On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vinc Duran wrote: I like the stolen phone sms message. Me too. When can I start erasing the phones of people I don't like? :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The very first thing a phone thief does is throw away the SIM. No SIM, No SMS, No protection.. erm.. destruction :) When my friends phone got stolen it happened the other way - some people. whose numbers were in his phone book, started to receive calls and messages with abuse. That's not nice thing to experience. And this daemon will perform just nice even if SIM card was changed. All you need to know is phone's current number. And some carriers (as I have heard, haven't checked myself) can provide you with such information it if you have registered your phone IMEI (aka written paper to carrier that Phone with such IMEI belongs to me). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 2:04 AM, Vinc Duran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could make it longer too. I mean you could require receiving multiple sms's. It could be a very long key. Why bother? Even using only alphanumeric characters (I've counted 62 characters) there are more than 10^216 possible keys [1]. That means that somebody would want to break this system and would be sending to you 1 message per second it would require him about 3*10^207 years just to reach 10% probability of sending correct key. (Or about 10^216 years to get 0.5% probability). That will never happen. And I think that you'll get suspicious receiving long meaningless messages all these years. (Also phone will quite likely to become too old to use with cellular networks by that time. [1] 12218073680353548058922335026733971922245990750848866696225357980522800709073153600165928612142210232085454876524842926435178601087679967305970361415808918724004919642128974801342733314107009534358023113252274176 to be exact. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I read an provocative estimate a year or so ago that each extra character of a password adds only on average 1.5 bits of entropy to it. ~ Considering how most passwords are formed from dictionary words, albeit slightly modified or appended, it sounds about right. Who says that this password will be created by human? Program should generate it automatically, shows it to user, user writes (or prints) it and saves in piggy bank hoping he will not need it at all. This function will be used so rare that there is not point in creating rememberable passwords. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Ilja O. wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vinc Duran wrote: I like the stolen phone sms message. Me too. When can I start erasing the phones of people I don't like? :-) You'll have to try hard to guess 120 random alphanumeric (at least) characters. Agreed, I was being facetious (as in: :-) implied. But don't write down your password!? Seriously, a neat idea. It might work, with the right hooks into the sms receiver code and the right key management infrastructure (said infrastructure running on a really secure OS (think OpenBSD) in a highly secure server room. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
1. This is exactly why thieves dump the SIM in the first place. To avoid getting SIM tracked, which is the quickest easiest. 2. IMEI tracking is as you said involves paperwork but which makes keeping a stolen phone of no use to anyone. Cops use this (in tandem with carriers) to track offenders if you have filed a complaint and mentioned the IMEI no. (which is also printed on every retail box) Which is why the primary concern here is the data and not the phone itself. IMO, the better way, as with all things, is encryption. Rahul J On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The very first thing a phone thief does is throw away the SIM. No SIM, No SMS, No protection.. erm.. destruction :) When my friends phone got stolen it happened the other way - some people. whose numbers were in his phone book, started to receive calls and messages with abuse. That's not nice thing to experience. And this daemon will perform just nice even if SIM card was changed. All you need to know is phone's current number. And some carriers (as I have heard, haven't checked myself) can provide you with such information it if you have registered your phone IMEI (aka written paper to carrier that Phone with such IMEI belongs to me). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
I'm no security expert but I'm pretty sure a lightweight 8 bit salt encryption (security guys?) can give any dektop pc software enough trouble to abort the attempt of trying to read a 256 meg worth of datacard, unless it really belongs to the director operations FBI ;) Rahul J On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see point in making secure protection from somebody that has stolen phone to obtain your data, since anything that phones' CPU will be able to encrypt/decrypt without draining battery much faster than it should be. ... Can be decrypted using desktop PC (or cluster of them) quite easily and fast. Sorry, lost my thought somewhere in the middle. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm no security expert but I'm pretty sure a lightweight 8 bit salt encryption (security guys?) can give any dektop pc software enough trouble to abort the attempt of trying to read a 256 meg worth of datacard, unless it really belongs to the director operations FBI ;) shamelesly edited copy from wikipedia Assume a user's secret key is stolen and he is known to use one of 200,000 English words as his password. The system uses a 8-bit salt. The amount of combinations is 256*20 = 5120. /shamelesly copy from wikipedia If attacker chacks one hash per second and has 64-core beowulf cluster it will require 9 days to check all possible combinations. That's not so much, imo. Also, processors are cheap these days one guy [1] has build 96-core machine (for unknown price). [1] http://helmer.sfe.se/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Also, processors are cheap these days one guy [1] has build 96-core machine (for unknown price). Sorry. That's 24 cores. He's planning to build 96-core next. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Christoph Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilja O. wrote: 1) Auth using PIN number (this requires encrypted image presence in phone file system by it's boot time end -- not reallyl convenient if SD card is used). IMO encrypting Data with the PIN Number is not such a good thing, because the possibilities of different keys are definately not high (max 8 digits, only numbers). A better solution would be to save the PIN on the encrypted storage and automatically read it. I don't see point in making secure protection from somebody that has stolen phone to obtain your data, since anything that phones' CPU will be able to encrypt/decrypt without draining battery much faster than it should be. I'm telling about making protection from phone thief, that simply has stolen your phone and is now trying to power it up and obtain any easily accessible plain data. And for this aim almost any encryption will do. To protect yourself from data thiefs the best way, imho, would be to program a daemon that wipes out all phone memory when phone receives an SMS message with predefined contents. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
I don't see point in making secure protection from somebody that has stolen phone to obtain your data, since anything that phones' CPU will be able to encrypt/decrypt without draining battery much faster than it should be. ... Can be decrypted using desktop PC (or cluster of them) quite easily and fast. Sorry, lost my thought somewhere in the middle. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
I like the stolen phone sms message. On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Christoph Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilja O. wrote: 1) Auth using PIN number (this requires encrypted image presence in phone file system by it's boot time end -- not reallyl convenient if SD card is used). IMO encrypting Data with the PIN Number is not such a good thing, because the possibilities of different keys are definately not high (max 8 digits, only numbers). A better solution would be to save the PIN on the encrypted storage and automatically read it. I don't see point in making secure protection from somebody that has stolen phone to obtain your data, since anything that phones' CPU will be able to encrypt/decrypt without draining battery much faster than it should be. I'm telling about making protection from phone thief, that simply has stolen your phone and is now trying to power it up and obtain any easily accessible plain data. And for this aim almost any encryption will do. To protect yourself from data thiefs the best way, imho, would be to program a daemon that wipes out all phone memory when phone receives an SMS message with predefined contents. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Vinc Duran wrote: I like the stolen phone sms message. Me too. When can I start erasing the phones of people I don't like? :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vinc Duran wrote: I like the stolen phone sms message. Me too. When can I start erasing the phones of people I don't like? :-) You'll have to try hard to guess 120 random alphanumeric (at least) characters. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
You could make it longer too. I mean you could require receiving multiple sms's. It could be a very long key. On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vinc Duran wrote: I like the stolen phone sms message. Me too. When can I start erasing the phones of people I don't like? :-) You'll have to try hard to guess 120 random alphanumeric (at least) characters. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
I have a friend who lost his iPhone and was very upset that ATT couldn't remotely wipe it for him... (Not that they ever said they could). On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vinc Duran wrote: I like the stolen phone sms message. Me too. When can I start erasing the phones of people I don't like? :-) You'll have to try hard to guess 120 random alphanumeric (at least) characters. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Private data protection.
Ilja O. wrote: 1) Auth using PIN number (this requires encrypted image presence in phone file system by it's boot time end -- not reallyl convenient if SD card is used). IMO encrypting Data with the PIN Number is not such a good thing, because the possibilities of different keys are definately not high (max 8 digits, only numbers). A better solution would be to save the PIN on the encrypted storage and automatically read it. 2) Auth using key file accessible on network (when phone is connected to your computer or local network). This means that auth can be performed only in your place (home, work...). Not such a good solution for a Phone IMO (if you're in holidays without laptop for example) 3) Auth using presence of another bluetooth or WiFi device (the MAC address of this device is used as key). This means that phone fully unlocks when your bluetooth mouse or router are around. ;) Same here... The most secure Thing IMO would be to ask a passprase while booting (maybe hack uboot for that, if it doesn't know that) or put data on another device/partition then the OS and asking later for the passphrase (maybe easier to implement) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Private data protection.
Hello. Recent Lifehacher article [1] rose a privacy-related question in my head -- how to protect user personal data if phone is stolen? First of all - I assume that phone was stolen for it's physical contents (and not to steal your data), so attacker will likely just to turn it on, and won't attempt any more sophisticated type of attack. What could be done to prevent such attacker from obtaining of e.g. my saved browser sessions? Personally I can see three easy ways of protection (aka without entry of additional passwords and physically connection of key-congaing storage devices). Both include have having some kind of encrypted file system image stored in phone file system. Of course it should use key-based encryption, so the main challenge is to provide easy way to enter key (without need to remember any new meaningless number-digit mumbo-jumbo password). 1) Auth using PIN number (this requires encrypted image presence in phone file system by it's boot time end -- not reallyl convenient if SD card is used). 2) Auth using key file accessible on network (when phone is connected to your computer or local network). This means that auth can be performed only in your place (home, work...). 3) Auth using presence of another bluetooth or WiFi device (the MAC address of this device is used as key). This means that phone fully unlocks when your bluetooth mouse or router are around. ;) AFAIK the best way to use such encrypted data in device like mobile phone (taking in account that any kind of encryption requires processor and processor requires electricity), it would be nice to create temporary file system in phones' RAM, copy encrypted data to it (during the copy also unencrypting it) and make applications to use data from RAM while operating the phone. But how to sync data from RAM back to encrypted file system? By the way, I'm writing this mail just to ask - does anyone has any other ideas or proposals? Or, maybe, it is already implemented, tested and I'm inventing bicice? [1] http://lifehacker.com/393336/protect-your-stolen-mobile-phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
