Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Joshua Layne]

somehow I missed this entirely (although I know I read it)
I apologize for jumping threads and starting a new topic - it wasn't 
even a week ago

j.
Doug Sutherland wrote:

Georg wrote:
 > no only in terms of speakerphone, also the navigational software (as far
  

as there'll be one) may be connected through it.. There are a lot of
possible ways to use that extension and I personally think that it's a
very useful additional feature .



Speaking of navigation, this is interesting, Locosys makes something
called Traffic Message Channel (TMC) using the Silicon Labs
SI4701 FM tuner RDS feature to gather real-time traffic and
weather information. They use an 8051 microcontroller to read
the RDS data from SI4701 and convert it into NMEA sentence
format, which is of course, also a format used by GPS receivers.
So, if you have onboard GPS, and bolt-on FM tuner with RDS,
and some processing, you could do something similar. The NMEA
part presumably is just to make it somewhat standard, is useful
data on its own, but this is quite interesting.

http://www.locosystech.com/download/module/TMC-1513_datasheet_v1.1.pdf

I'm going to design just a very simple breakout board for the
SI4701 to start playing around with it, this RDS stuff is very
interesting. Later will make another board with SI4701 and
small microcontroller plus audio codec. Microcontroller
will read the RDS and also control/configure the FM tuner.
Analog audio output would work alone but could also input
into Neo or other application. Currently in the middle of
switching jobs and residence though, so it may be a short
while before I get any boards made.

  -- Doug


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

Georg wrote:
 > no only in terms of speakerphone, also the navigational software (as far
> as there'll be one) may be connected through it.. There are a lot of
> possible ways to use that extension and I personally think that it's a
> very useful additional feature .

Speaking of navigation, this is interesting, Locosys makes something
called Traffic Message Channel (TMC) using the Silicon Labs
SI4701 FM tuner RDS feature to gather real-time traffic and
weather information. They use an 8051 microcontroller to read
the RDS data from SI4701 and convert it into NMEA sentence
format, which is of course, also a format used by GPS receivers.
So, if you have onboard GPS, and bolt-on FM tuner with RDS,
and some processing, you could do something similar. The NMEA
part presumably is just to make it somewhat standard, is useful
data on its own, but this is quite interesting.

http://www.locosystech.com/download/module/TMC-1513_datasheet_v1.1.pdf

I'm going to design just a very simple breakout board for the
SI4701 to start playing around with it, this RDS stuff is very
interesting. Later will make another board with SI4701 and
small microcontroller plus audio codec. Microcontroller
will read the RDS and also control/configure the FM tuner.
Analog audio output would work alone but could also input
into Neo or other application. Currently in the middle of
switching jobs and residence though, so it may be a short
while before I get any boards made.

  -- Doug


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

Georg wrote:
> no only in terms of speakerphone, also the navigational software (as far 
> as there'll be one) may be connected through it.. There are a lot of 
> possible ways to use that extension and I personally think that it's a 
> very useful additional feature .

The supplier where I usually buy parts has only the FM receivers in
stock, but the interesting thing is that these went way down in price
just in the past couple of months. The SI4701 with RDS/RDBS is
$5.22 single qty, I paid over $18 for this same part from the same 
supplier in September! Back then the SI4700 (without RDS/RDBS)
was roughly half the price, now it is $4.55. At quantuty 100 this 
part goes down to $3.03, not bad for a complete FM receiver.
The price of the development board also dropped down to $125
and the USB FM radio stick demo is $35. But this distributor
(Digiykey) only has the FM receivers, not the AM/FM receivers,
FM transmitters, or FM transceivers.

Another distributor Mouser also only has the receivers. They have
an evaluation board for SI4713 transmittable orderable but not in  
stock and yet they don't list the chip itself. 

NuHorizons has these in stock:

SI4710  FM Transmitter $10.35
SI4711  FM Transmitter with RDS/RBDS  $12.43
SI4712  FM Transceiver $11.96
SI4713  FM Transceiver with RDS/RBDS  $14.35 
SI4730  AM/FM Receiver $14.87 
SI4731  AM/FM Receiver with RDS/RBDS $16.89

http://www.nuhorizons.com/

So assuming RDS/RDBS capable versions ...
FM receiver $5.22 from Digikey (SI4701)
FM transceiver $14.35 from NuHorizons (SI4713)
AM/FM receiver $16.89 from NuHorizons (SI4731) 

The SI4701 FM receiver has analog audio output so it could
connect direct to audio input, or could also be converted to 
USB audio using PCM2900 or similar. The SPI port is for 
control (scan frequencies) and receiving RDS/RBDS. If it was
done as USB, with a 2-port USB hub chip, PCM29xx USB
audio, and small USB microcontroller with SPI (and driver
for virtual USB UART), this could plug into the USB host 
port.

The audio interfaces are simple but the control interfaces may
be a bit of a challenge for integration with Neo, if you want 
control from the phone itself. Alternatively, a simple FM 
receiver could just have a scan button on the receiver board
and only an analog interface to Neo. 

Regarding transmitters and transceivers, I need to look closer
at those. One of the other things about these is you basically 
need to buy a development board to even get full datasheet.

  -- Doug



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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Georg Michelitsch]

Jeff Andros wrote:



On 11/9/07, *Georg Michelitsch* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
wrote:



I'm interested in a FM transmitter in order to for example listen
to my
music on my car's radio.




This could also enable some really cool speakerphone abilities, as 
long as we can then filter the audio input to remove the echo


--
Jeff
O|||O


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Jeff,

no only in terms of speakerphone, also the navigational software (as far 
as there'll be one) may be connected through it.. There are a lot of 
possible ways to use that extension and I personally think that it's a 
very useful additional feature .


. Georg


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

There is an interesting speaker phone codec made by cirrus logic
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1006.html

They are in stock at digikey

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Jeff Andros]

On 11/9/07, Georg Michelitsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm interested in a FM transmitter in order to for example listen to my
> music on my car's radio.
>

>

This could also enable some really cool speakerphone abilities, as long as
we can then filter the audio input to remove the echo

-- 
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

The FM transmitters (SI471x) take digital or analog audio input
and transmit, the SI4711 can even encode RDS/RDBS which
is interesting.

The FM receivers (SI470x) receive the signal and output analog
audio and SI4701 can decode RDS/RDBS and send that out
an SPI port.

The SI472x is both receiver and transmitter.

But last time I checked the distributor where I usually buy
parts only had the SI470x FM receivers, and I found some
of the other from other suppliers that were not local, I will
check availability later on tonight.

http://www.silabs.com/tgwWebApp/public/web_content/products/Broadcast/Radio_Tuners/en/Si4730-31_matrix.htm

  -- Doug


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Georg Michelitsch]

Doug Sutherland wrote:

Georg,

The amazing thing about these Silicon Labs parts is that they require
almost no external components. For example the SI470x FM tuners
require a crystal and regulator, that is all, they can use headphone 
cable as antenna (as is done in most phones now), and they have 
stereo analog output and SPI interface for control and for getting 
the RDS/RDBS station identification and song info as text. Those
analog outputs could feed right into a TI PCM2900 and then 
you have a driverless USB audio FM tuner. Without access to 
SPI though a small microcontroller would be required. Could be

done with a $2 ARM7 or Cortex-M3.

I haven't looked too closely at the FM transmitters or receivers
yet, but I'll take a look and see what kind of external components
are required. So you're not even interested in FM tuner, just FM
transmitters and receivers? 

BTW I also have hardware based text-to-speech chips here 
that work really well and also require few components, they 
are UART input and analog and/or digital audio output, I have
already made one full speech synth for someone using them 
and have several more chipsets here.


I am actually more interested in speech based interfaces to 
phones and PDAs than the fancy GUIs, might be interesting
to bolt one onto a Neo at some point. My phone should 
READ web pages and email to me and whisper in my ear.


  -- Doug

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Doug,

I'm interested in a FM transmitter in order to for example listen to my 
music on my car's radio. A receiver (tuner?) would be nice in order to 
listen to radio on the phone.  Well I think I mixed up "receiver" and 
"tuner" as I'm not native english-speaking.. So if I've understood right 
a receiver already plays the music on the radio, while a tuner passes 
the data to another device (in this case the phone?) .. Then what I want 
is a FM transmitter and a tuner :)


What you've mentioned that far sounds interesting, but you're talking 
about USB.. Are there some internal usb-ports on the Neo or how are you 
planning to add this extension to it? By plugging it into the external 
usb-port?


Your voice-to-text and voice-to-input project sound interesting too but 
my primary interest for the moment concerns the FM transmitter/tuner 
project.


. Georg


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

Georg,

The amazing thing about these Silicon Labs parts is that they require
almost no external components. For example the SI470x FM tuners
require a crystal and regulator, that is all, they can use headphone 
cable as antenna (as is done in most phones now), and they have 
stereo analog output and SPI interface for control and for getting 
the RDS/RDBS station identification and song info as text. Those
analog outputs could feed right into a TI PCM2900 and then 
you have a driverless USB audio FM tuner. Without access to 
SPI though a small microcontroller would be required. Could be
done with a $2 ARM7 or Cortex-M3.

I haven't looked too closely at the FM transmitters or receivers
yet, but I'll take a look and see what kind of external components
are required. So you're not even interested in FM tuner, just FM
transmitters and receivers? 

BTW I also have hardware based text-to-speech chips here 
that work really well and also require few components, they 
are UART input and analog and/or digital audio output, I have
already made one full speech synth for someone using them 
and have several more chipsets here.

I am actually more interested in speech based interfaces to 
phones and PDAs than the fancy GUIs, might be interesting
to bolt one onto a Neo at some point. My phone should 
READ web pages and email to me and whisper in my ear.

  -- Doug

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Georg Michelitsch]

Doug Sutherland wrote:

Georg,

My original plan was to design a generic add-on board for
embedded single board computers that includes an audio
codec, FM tuner, and optional text-to-speech. I still have
that plan but may make several variants on this, I have lots
of interest in mobile audio beyond what is available today.
TI has chips that can convert USB audio (driverless on
host) to I2S and/or S/PDIF, which would allow for some
really interesting possibilities in supporting different kinds
of codecs, DACs, ADCs, DSPs, faders etc.

Is it only the FM tuner you are interested in? Do you
have skills with Eagle CAD? I have surface mount
reflow oven and can solder any part easily. I also have
Eagle commercial version but at the moment do not have
a lot of time. If you want to work with me on schematics
and CAD design for starters that would be cool.

Look at the TI PCM29xx USB audio codecs, this is a
way to interface via USB to other audio devices. It is
also interesting that Neo uses WM8753, as I have been
wanting to work with this part for a long time, since it
has dual audio codecs voice and hifi. The TI TAS3103
also looks pretty interesting.

I have some SI4701 FM tuner chips here already,
have their USB FM radio stick which is really a demo
of the chipset, and have collected lots of info on these.
I also have sample WM8753, will be getting more,
and development boards for both of these chips
eventually.

   -- Doug







Doug Sutherland
Proficio Research
http://www.proficio.ca/

  

Doug,

my skills concerning all that are very limited, because I've got no 
education going deep enough into electronics - just wanted to mention 
that in the beginning. Nevertheless I'm very interested to learn some 
things. I already can handle eagle and I'm able to understand some 
smaller circuits, but I'm just a beginner!
My primary interest is in a FM transmitter and receiver (but your 
proposal doesn't sound bad, in the contrary). I already spoke to a 
friend of mine who's a lot more qualified to realise that than me, who's 
interested in building that too. (and who eventually may help)


At the moment I'm quite occupied with the preparations for a big examen 
end of November but after this one I should have more time to get an 
insight into the codecs and chips you mentioned and maybe even 
contribute some assistance as far as possible.


. Georg

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

Georg,

My original plan was to design a generic add-on board for
embedded single board computers that includes an audio
codec, FM tuner, and optional text-to-speech. I still have
that plan but may make several variants on this, I have lots
of interest in mobile audio beyond what is available today.
TI has chips that can convert USB audio (driverless on
host) to I2S and/or S/PDIF, which would allow for some
really interesting possibilities in supporting different kinds
of codecs, DACs, ADCs, DSPs, faders etc.

Is it only the FM tuner you are interested in? Do you
have skills with Eagle CAD? I have surface mount
reflow oven and can solder any part easily. I also have
Eagle commercial version but at the moment do not have
a lot of time. If you want to work with me on schematics
and CAD design for starters that would be cool.

Look at the TI PCM29xx USB audio codecs, this is a
way to interface via USB to other audio devices. It is
also interesting that Neo uses WM8753, as I have been
wanting to work with this part for a long time, since it
has dual audio codecs voice and hifi. The TI TAS3103
also looks pretty interesting.

I have some SI4701 FM tuner chips here already,
have their USB FM radio stick which is really a demo
of the chipset, and have collected lots of info on these.
I also have sample WM8753, will be getting more,
and development boards for both of these chips
eventually.

   -- Doug







Doug Sutherland
Proficio Research
http://www.proficio.ca/


- Original Message - 
From: "Georg Michelitsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List for OpenMoko community discussion" 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions


> Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
> >
> >
> > Implementing an FM sender would however make the Neo hard to sell on
> > markets where personal FM transmitters are illegal (however weak the
> > signal is) such as Sweden. At least it was still illegal when I was
> > living there.
> >
> > cheers ./daniel
> >
> ahm - we're talking about home-made extensions, not about a new
> hardware-revision for the Neo, as far as I understood that..
>
> -- 
> Georg Michelitsch
> Sonnenstraße 12, 8071 Vasoldsberg
> Österreich - Austria - Autriche
> Tel.: +43-664-9417167
> mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Georg Michelitsch]

Daniel Gustafsson wrote:



Implementing an FM sender would however make the Neo hard to sell on
markets where personal FM transmitters are illegal (however weak the
signal is) such as Sweden. At least it was still illegal when I was
living there.

cheers ./daniel
  
ahm - we're talking about home-made extensions, not about a new 
hardware-revision for the Neo, as far as I understood that..


--
Georg Michelitsch
Sonnenstraße 12, 8071 Vasoldsberg
Österreich - Austria - Autriche
Tel.: +43-664-9417167
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Georg Michelitsch]

Doug Sutherland wrote:


I am planning to make some PCB boards with the SI4701 and
minimal parts on them in the future, will be sold on ebay
(I have surface mount reflow oven).

See the Silicon Labs parts here:
http://www.silabs.com/tgwWebApp/public/web_content/products/Broadcast/Radio_Tuners/en/Si4730-31_matrix.htm

  -- Doug


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Hi !
Just let me know (personal mail, mailing list) when you're starting up 
with this issue, I've been planning that too so why not developing it 
together if its possible?


. Georg


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

> He is talking about receiver chips, like those used in
> SonyEricsson/Nokia cellphones, to provide the phone owner with FM
> radio reception.  Not to transmit say, music, to a radio.

Well I mentioned both, and they are separate chips.
There is plain FM, FM with RDS/RBDS, AM/FM
and also FM transmitters and receivers available 
from Silicon Labs. 

I have FM radio on my phone now and don't use
it very much, it's definitely not a show stopper, in 
fact for Neo even GPS is not a requirement for me,
main concern is the quad band (future, sorry for 
all my whining), good quality audio (wolfson is 
very good choice), and the WIFI sounds great.
Bluetooth makes sense.

Camera, GPS, and other add-ons not needed,
for me anyways, I don't expect this device to be
the only one. 

  -- Doug

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Mike Hodson]

On Nov 9, 2007 3:04 PM, Daniel Gustafsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Implementing an FM sender would however make the Neo hard to sell on
> markets where personal FM transmitters are illegal (however weak the
> signal is) such as Sweden. At least it was still illegal when I was
> living there.
>

He is talking about receiver chips, like those used in
SonyEricsson/Nokia cellphones, to provide the phone owner with FM
radio reception.  Not to transmit say, music, to a radio.

Mike

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Mike Hodson]

On Nov 9, 2007 6:10 AM, Mike Hodson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He is talking about receiver chips, like those used in
> SonyEricsson/Nokia cellphones, to provide the phone owner with FM
> radio reception.  Not to transmit say, music, to a radio.

Or i also could have missed the final sentence in his paragraph.
(Quantity vs quality of reading clouded my concentration by then)

Mike

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Daniel Gustafsson]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 06:46:16 -0500
"Doug Sutherland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Silicon Labs SI4700 and SI4701 are entire FM tuners on a single
> chip, and they are tiny. I have their USB FM Radio and I use it
> every day on my PC, and I believe the same chip is in my Sony
> Ericsson phone. This is the one that uses the earphone wire as
> antenna, although it can be separate, as is demonstrated in the
> USB FM radio implementation and also their devkit. The 4701
> adds European Radio Data System (RDS)  and US Radio
> Broadcast Data System (RBDS) which can capture the station
> identification and song name. This FM tuner would be a good
> choice for Neo. Silicon Labs also has an even smaller version,
> AM/FM version, and also FM transmitter chips that would
> allow playback on car stereo for example.

Implementing an FM sender would however make the Neo hard to sell on
markets where personal FM transmitters are illegal (however weak the
signal is) such as Sweden. At least it was still illegal when I was
living there.

cheers ./daniel
-- 
daniel gustafsson ; daniel at hobbit dot se ; La Trobe University ; AU

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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Mikko J Rauhala]

On pe, 2007-11-09 at 16:35 +0530, rakshat hooja wrote:
> 1) Are there any working hacks for getting FM radio reception on the
> neo 1973? Even the $35 (total for the unlocked phone that will work
> with any network) Nokia phones have FM reception in india. This is a
> must have option for the Neo to sell in India.

A weird market, India, then. And no, the Neo doesn't/won't have an FM
receiver, as simple as that. (If you mean "hacks" as hardware, of course
you can get something done but hard to make it clean, and hardware hacks
don't really add to mainstream marketability.)

>   2) Will the GTA02 phone have the speaker phone option or is getting
> call sound on the speakers something that can be done by editing
> config files in openmoko?

You can certainly stick the sound anywhere, but you'd need to do echo
cancellation or some kind of push-to-talk. Possible, still.

I don't really know how well the mic would pick up speech from a bit
further away. Something to try out. If it doesn't, maybe for some needs
it could be sufficient to use the headset mic and phone speaker, though
a bit weird.

> 3) Is it theoretically possible to print by directly connecting the
> printer to the phone if the printer drivers are avaliable (at least
> text files)

Yes, especially with the GTA02 (which can provide 100 mA USB power). The
GTA01 is likely to require a power injector in between, so that the
printer will realize it has something hooked into it.

Also other USB 1.1 gadgets (that will settle for 100 mA or preferrably
have internal power so the Neo's battery isn't drained) should work, if
there are just Linux drivers for them (present on the system, of course,
with supporting software). You should be able to offload a digital
camera onto the Neo and/or through it to the net, for instance. 

> 4) If someone writes a faxing application for openmoko should it not
> be possible to use the phone as a mobile fax sending and recieving
> unit?

I'd be surprised if it wasn't, though I'm not 100% positive - faxing is
of no interest to me personally so I've not verified it. Somebody chime
in?

-- 
Mikko J Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
University of Helsinki


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Re: FM radio reception on neo/openmoko and some other questions

[Doug Sutherland]

Silicon Labs SI4700 and SI4701 are entire FM tuners on a single
chip, and they are tiny. I have their USB FM Radio and I use it
every day on my PC, and I believe the same chip is in my Sony
Ericsson phone. This is the one that uses the earphone wire as
antenna, although it can be separate, as is demonstrated in the
USB FM radio implementation and also their devkit. The 4701
adds European Radio Data System (RDS)  and US Radio
Broadcast Data System (RBDS) which can capture the station
identification and song name. This FM tuner would be a good
choice for Neo. Silicon Labs also has an even smaller version,
AM/FM version, and also FM transmitter chips that would
allow playback on car stereo for example.

I am planning to make some PCB boards with the SI4701 and
minimal parts on them in the future, will be sold on ebay
(I have surface mount reflow oven).

See the Silicon Labs parts here:
http://www.silabs.com/tgwWebApp/public/web_content/products/Broadcast/Radio_Tuners/en/Si4730-31_matrix.htm

  -- Doug


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