Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
On Tuesday 21 August 2007 15:06, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > Am 21.08.2007 um 12:46 schrieb Harald Welte: > > > > I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community > > development have I seen any project that had problems with properly > > using mailinglists. > > By deciding not to have a forum, you will loose some participants. > And those > who remain will have no problems. So, this argument is not a proof... Show me a single succesfull opensource project which uses *both* mailing lists and a forum *for development*. Just one. So far the lack of proof is on your side of the argument. > Well, I don't know how old you are but I did send my first e-mails > approx. > 1984 and wrote my first UNIX programs at that time. Nevertheless I would > prefer a forum. I was 5 years old in 1984, my first email account was a webmail account. I never used the internet before grahical browsers existed. Nevertheless I whould prefer a mailing list. So what? If personal perference has to be the norm you will get all kind of things, but never a community. I'd use the forum if that was where the action was. But i'd *never* try to split up an active development community over the choice of communication medium. > That might be an unwise decision - but you are the decision taker :-) Thats a very wise decision. There is *no* reason at all to split the developers into two groups, forum users and mail users. That is a very stupid idea. Regardless of wich is supposedly better you should never split a community over several different communication mediums, and you should not try to radically change the medium either. For that reason alone Harald is right to oppose against forums (for developer usage, that is). AVee (I've said it, I won't be dragged into discussions about this) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
AVee wrote: > Thats a very wise decision. There is *no* reason at all to split the > developers into two groups, forum users and mail users. But there are many list servers that also run as a forum. Whatever gets added to the forum gets e-mailed out to all those who want to receive e-mails. Whatever gets mailed to the list appears on the web site of the forum. The one I've been using for some e-democracy work is GroupServer (www.groupserver.org). There are many others. -- Dr. David R. Newman, Queen's University Management School, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland (UK) Tel. +44 28 9097 3643 FAX: +44 28 9097 5156 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.qub.ac.uk/mgt/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
On 8/21/07, Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > > Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly > dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available > online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your > laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? I understand your computer usage requires you to work offline. But there are many in the world, such as myself, that are never on a computer that isn't online. To dismiss a whole realm of applications because they are web-based is scary. A majority of my activities are on websites with apps that would not work without the internet. They are very useful *because* they are online! If you consider yourself a "dumb user", then you probably are not the > kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( I believe he meant "ignorant user". We simply don't know as much as the core developers know about the Neo. But we are eager to learn. In general, the tone of many of the messages regarding forum usage scares me. Several people have essentially said "if you don't like our mailing list, f*&k off". At best, you're simply dismissive of a whole generation of users that are more comfortable with forums. I would like to see this community welcome new users. Perhaps there are other folks out here like me that are new to open-source development. I've been involved with only two open-source projects, and one of them was with me as the sole developer. So, bear with us young ones who are trying to understand this group of people that despise forums. For us, a forum is the default way to communicate with a group of people. I've accepted that the core developers will only use the mailing list. But it disturbs me that you are so willing to dismiss people who prefer forums as some how not worthy or capable of contributing to the project. We will bring new ideas and ways of thinking to this project. Don't be so quick to dismiss us! -Steven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Sorry. I had uncontrollable spasms in my mouse finger. Or whatever. This mail was not intentionally sent. Sorry I just wanted to agree with harald. But not whith sending a blanc email. :) Forums suck for many reasons. (No filter, no archiving, no offline use, ...) No FOSS project of any importance needed a forum for anything. If someone likes forums so much. Write a mailinglist-2-frum proxy. Or make a pimped up verison of the list arcives for browser use. (This is a part where all/most mailinglists really stink at the moment) Tilman Baumann wrote: Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Harald, please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. in fact that was the most fun part. But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have community involvement or not? I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community development have I seen any project that had problems with properly using mailinglists. Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? We will most likely have a forum for _end users_ at a time where we want to address end users. But not for developers, sorry. Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, uboot, etc. issues that we as the "dumb users" can't solve ourselves. I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device If you consider yourself a "dumb user", then you probably are not the kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Harald, please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. in fact that was the most fun part. But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have community involvement or not? I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community development have I seen any project that had problems with properly using mailinglists. Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? We will most likely have a forum for _end users_ at a time where we want to address end users. But not for developers, sorry. Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, uboot, etc. issues that we as the "dumb users" can't solve ourselves. I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device If you consider yourself a "dumb user", then you probably are not the kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
I'm a forum fan too, but I'm fine with Harald's position. For those like me, there is an unofficial OpenMoko forum here: http://forums.makeopensource.com/ On 8/21/07, Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please don't bring up the forum debate again. > > We have heared all the arguments. > > We will not have a forum as long as I have any role in this project. > > All FOSS projects that I've ever been involved in 10+ years FOSS > development use mailinglists, very efficiently, even lots of them. > > That's our official take on this. Re-iterating this over and over again > will just make everyone involed more upset, and everyone else annoyed by > an even worse signal/noise ratio. > -- > - Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://openmoko.org/ > > Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Am 21.08.2007 um 10:39 schrieb Harald Welte: Please don't bring up the forum debate again. We have heared all the arguments. We will not have a forum as long as I have any role in this project. All FOSS projects that I've ever been involved in 10+ years FOSS development use mailinglists, very efficiently, even lots of them. That's our official take on this. Re-iterating this over and over again will just make everyone involed more upset, and everyone else annoyed by an even worse signal/noise ratio. Harald, please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have community involvement or not? Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, uboot, etc. issues that we as the "dumb users" can't solve ourselves. I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device (Bug # 719). Maybe, it is not a software issue at all but just a documentation on what to do differently? I simply got stuck with my knowledge. Best regards, Nikolaus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Am 21.08.2007 um 12:46 schrieb Harald Welte: On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Harald, please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. in fact that was the most fun part. But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have community involvement or not? I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community It didn't look like that... development have I seen any project that had problems with properly using mailinglists. By deciding not to have a forum, you will loose some participants. And those who remain will have no problems. So, this argument is not a proof... Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available Well, I don't know how old you are but I did send my first e-mails approx. 1984 and wrote my first UNIX programs at that time. Nevertheless I would prefer a forum. It is so easy to wipe away needs and requests from others by saying they simply don't understand properly how to use it :-) What would you do if you go into a shop where you want to buy a red t- shirt and the sales agent says that red is out and t-shirts are not good at all and that all those who want to buy a t-shirt simply don't understand why polo shirts are so much better? online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your I have never had a problem with not being online all the time. laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? For which purpose should I keep ***all*** these mails archived? We will most likely have a forum for _end users_ at a time where we want to address end users. But not for developers, sorry. That might be an unwise decision - but you are the decision taker :-) Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, uboot, etc. issues that we as the "dumb users" can't solve ourselves. I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device If you consider yourself a "dumb user", then you probably are not the kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( Looks a little like Freedom and Openness has limits? Look - I have a device now for 2 weeks. I have >20 years experience in software development and a certain goal to achieve with the OpenMoko. So, how should I know everything the core team knows that works on the device for now 10 months? Compared to you, I am of course a "dumb user" who has to learn a lot of aspects of the OpenMoko system. Especially the flashing process. But that is IMHO no argument to criticise my requests and needs. But I do not want to open a new fundamentalistic discussion. Nikolaus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 11:19:57AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > Harald, > > please calm down. I know from your blog how upset you are from setting > up the new office location, networks and servers during Taifun time. in fact that was the most fun part. > But just one question to answer for yourself: do you want to have > community involvement or not? I am from the community ;) And not in my 10+ years of FOSS community development have I seen any project that had problems with properly using mailinglists. Forums are for people who don't understand the technology of properly dealing with e-mails. Of what use is something that's only available online? Of no use at all. Try keeping a local copy of a forum on your laptop. Why should openmoko be any different? We will most likely have a forum for _end users_ at a time where we want to address end users. But not for developers, sorry. > Now as your network appears to work again, please focus on solving kernel, > uboot, etc. issues that we as the "dumb users" can't solve ourselves. > I am for example still fighting the issue with short and long rootfs > flashing and NAND erasing, that leaves an inoperable OpenMoko device If you consider yourself a "dumb user", then you probably are not the kind of developer crowd that we are addressing at this moment :( -- - Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Forum? (Was Re: Neo Sound and USB Questions)
Please don't bring up the forum debate again. We have heared all the arguments. We will not have a forum as long as I have any role in this project. All FOSS projects that I've ever been involved in 10+ years FOSS development use mailinglists, very efficiently, even lots of them. That's our official take on this. Re-iterating this over and over again will just make everyone involed more upset, and everyone else annoyed by an even worse signal/noise ratio. -- - Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
