Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 24/01/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And besides, the BSDL predates the GPLv1 by a decade. This is simply untrue. I have done some research on this: http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22at%26t+source+license%22+BSD In 1989 the Networking Tape 1 was released; this was the first time that BSD UNIX code was available to anyone without a very expensive proprietary license from ATT. An ATT source license in 1988 could cost as much as $100,000, making it prohibitive for many would-be users of BSD. And many would argue (I certainly do, but obviously not the FSF) that the BSDL is much more free than the GPL. The freedom to become less free is a paradox. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html explains why copyleft licenses like the GPL are better than permissive free software licenses like the revised BSD license. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
Twas brillig at 11:23:52 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Dave Crossland did gyre and gimble: DC The freedom to become less free is a paradox. DC http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html explains why DC copyleft licenses like the GPL are better than permissive free DC software licenses like the revised BSD license. Please don't think your opponents are ignoramus. Nearly everyone here knows very well both the position of BSD people, and essences of GNU homilies. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
BSD people appreciate software companies like Apple coming along, changing the code, and releasing *non-free*. On 1/27/07, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twas brillig at 11:23:52 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Dave Crossland did gyre and gimble: DC The freedom to become less free is a paradox. DC http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html explains why DC copyleft licenses like the GPL are better than permissive free DC software licenses like the revised BSD license. Please don't think your opponents are ignoramus. Nearly everyone here knows very well both the position of BSD people, and essences of GNU homilies. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 27/01/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 12:23:52 Dave Crossland wrote: And besides, the BSDL predates the GPLv1 by a decade. This is simply untrue. I have done some research on this: http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22at%26t+source+license%22+BSD In 1989 the Networking Tape 1 was released; this was the first time that BSD UNIX code was available to anyone without a very expensive proprietary license from ATT. That does in no way proof me wrong. Before that, there was always some ATT code in BSD, so it wasn't completely BSDL and couldnt not be used without permission from ATT. THat doesn't say the BSDL didnt exist. I genuinely, sincerely would appreciate it if you found some reference for this, other than you saying it. Because the reference I just stated contradicts you: In June 1989 the Berkeley group took just this approach, releasing the TCP/IP code and a set of supporting utilities that had been written without any ATT code as 'Networking Release 1.' 'Networking Release 1 came with generous licensing terms. This was the first example of what would later be called a BSD-style license. http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22came+with+generous+licensing+terms%22 -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
This is simply untrue. The fact is, as originally stated, that the BSD preceded the GPL (by two years or ten) and that free or open source software certainly existed well before the FSF did. I received system distributions for DECsystem-10s in the 70s, entirely in source form... The freedom to become less free is a paradox. Now, _this_ is simply untrue. I thought I'd let it slide the first time, but it seems to be becoming a slogan with you, so allow me to correct your misapprehensions. A trivial counter-example, familiar to any law student who's gotten past his first couple of days of contract law: As an adult, you are _free_ to sign any (presumably valid) contract you choose to. Once you've signed, however, you've abandoned the freedom to take or leave the conditions placed upon you by that contract. So, where's the paradox, Mr. Crossland? (You've let us know you're not a developer; it's becoming clear you have no greater level of understanding of legal issues.) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 3:30:45 pm 2007-01-27 David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is simply untrue. The fact is, as originally stated, that the BSD preceded the GPL (by two years or ten) http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/ I think they were at most at the same time not one preceded the other. GPLv2 was year 1991 and from what I can read the GPLv1 was first mentioned in 1988. So unless we are talking about a specific version which from my reading we are not. and that free or open source software certainly existed well before the FSF did. I received system distributions for DECsystem-10s in the 70s, entirely in source form... Are wa talking about you having this system at home or was this at your workplace/university where the university/work probably payed a license fee to get this similar to what todays commercial products have. If my history isn't wrong if you bought a license from a company for the software many companies included the source code(this is pre-m$) for no charge or a bit extra. The freedom to become less free is a paradox. Now, _this_ is simply untrue. I thought I'd let it slide the first time, but it seems to be becoming a slogan with you, so allow me to correct your misapprehensions. A trivial counter-example, familiar to any law student who's gotten past his first couple of days of contract law: As an adult, you are _free_ to sign any (presumably valid) contract you choose to. Once you've signed, however, you've abandoned the freedom to take or leave the conditions placed upon you by that contract. So, where's the paradox, Mr. Crossland? (You've let us know you're not a developer; it's becoming clear you have no greater level of understanding of legal issues.) I won't comment on this as IANAL. -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07 3:33 AM, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please don't think your opponents are ignoramus. Nearly everyone here knows very well both the position of BSD people, and essences of GNU homilies. Personally, I'd be a lot more impressed if Mr. Crossland were able to articulate any of these viewpoints in his own words, rather than repeatedly feeding us pointers to canned propaganda. The page Mr. Crossland cites actually offers no particular rationale as to why GPL is better than BSD, other than dark mutterings about the possibility of someone's using code in non-free software. Is that not a freedom one can legitimately choose to allow to others, Mr. Crossland? Or is the freedom described by the FSF the only allowable kind...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BSD people appreciate software companies like Apple coming along, changing the code, and releasing *non-free*. That is a freedom which the BSD license allows. Yes it is. But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to take it away. You're not against _freedom_, are you? No, silly. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
Twas brillig at 15:10:43 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Declan Naughton did gyre and gimble: DN But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make DN sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to DN take it away. Well, it's your problem, not others one. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twas brillig at 15:10:43 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Declan Naughton did gyre and gimble: DN But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make DN sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to DN take it away. Well, it's your problem, not others one. My opinion, actually, and I'd claim nothing more, just hope that you would too. Doesn't look like it, but. Which is your problem, not mine. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On Saturday 27 January 2007 16:10:43 Declan Naughton wrote: But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to take it away. If others take code under the BSDL and put it into a closed system, freedom doesn't go away at all. It just doesn't necessarily extend any further. pgpi72MIs80rQ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On Saturday 27 January 2007 15:58:46 Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: (You've let us know you're not a developer; it's becoming clear you have no greater level of understanding of legal issues.) I won't comment on this as IANAL. This is entirely right (albeit IANAL either). For example, if you take on a job, you surrender freedom of movement for parts of the day, too, in exchange for something you want, usually mostly your salary. There are certain bounds to this, and for good reasons btw as in most countries it's not legal to enter into contracts (actually you might be allowed to enter into one, but courts would refuse to hold it up) that would make you a de facto slave of the other party but outside this, you're free to give up freedoms whenever you like. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
If I am free to beat someone up that does not mean the sum total of freedom for society is increased. Sorry, pointlessness alert. There's _never_ a freedom to beat someone up, and--outside of the very limited contexts of, e.g., law enforcement or military activities--no one can grant one, so let's put this straw man to rest right away. Beating someone up is assault and battery, which are either misdemeanors or felonies, depending on the degree of severity, and you're never free to do either one. Granting the freedom to extend a piece of code in whatever ways one's ingenuity allows, and do what one likes with those changes, doesn't take anything away from the original situation. If Apple takes BSD code and makes it do interesting things it couldn't before, you no worse off than you were before they did so, whether or not they share the source code for those changes with you. Who do you imagine is getting beaten up? How are you less free as a result? If Apple's changes--and unwillingness to share--offend you, don't buy anything from 'em. If others don't mind, do you feel that you know better and should be able to restrict _their_ freedom to buy Apple's products...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
If others take code under the BSDL and put it into a closed system, freedom doesn't go away at all. It just doesn't necessarily extend any further. It has gone away for the users of that system. ...who are, of course, being forced to use said system at gunpoint. Really, what's it to you? If people want to use a closed system, for whatever reasons, why do you feel you need to stand in their way, or re-educate them? I asked you some time ago--and never got a response--whether you wanted to take the stance that I was unethical for using Photoshop and Illustrator (or, maybe, whether Adobe was unethical for selling them to me). Come up with any sort of answer yet? It seems to be pretty much the same issue. Why is your particular (and more restricted) version of freedom the only acceptable one? (See if you can come up with a more coherent example than the freedom to beat people up, okay?) What's he to Hecubah, or Hecubah to him, that he should weep thus for her?--Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: because capitalists organisations involve authoritative decision making and the person in authority, paying my wage, tells me I have to be there. Yawn. So quit. Move to the people's republic of your choice and live in proletarian harmony, giving according to your means and receiving according to your needs. I hear North Korea's nice if you like that sort of thing, and aren't too married to the eating thing. Bring a sweater, it's cold this time of year. Yeah, and maybe the people who fought for an America free from Britian should've just gotten on a boat or swam elsewhere. You're probably the oldest person here, or among the oldest people here, but your childishness is just amazing. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Are you sure you should be on a children's mailing list somewhere? Renaissance Man On 27 Jan 2007, at 4:16 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: Yawn. So quit. Move to the people's republic of your choice and live in proletarian harmony, giving according to your means and receiving according to your needs. I hear North Korea's nice if you like that sort of thing, and aren't too married to the eating thing. Bring a sweater, it's cold this time of year. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
Well you managed to miss the point of my *metaphor* (not straw man), even though I spelt it out for you: The point is real freedom is measured on a whole picture basis, not on an individual basis. How are you less free as a result? Apple's iPhone, for instance, contains open source software, but because it's totally reliant on un-free software I can't add VoIP via WiFi to it for instance, effectively nullifying the freedom aspect of the free software component for its users. All the effort that went into that free software to make it free is nullified for me as a user and Apple (a large purveyor or largely un-free software) gets a leg up (boosting it's ability to compete against free software) that it wouldn't have had if that software had been licenced under the GPL, effectively making the society I live in less free. Renaissance Man On 27 Jan 2007, at 4:15 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: If I am free to beat someone up that does not mean the sum total of freedom for society is increased. Sorry, pointlessness alert. There's _never_ a freedom to beat someone up, and--outside of the very limited contexts of, e.g., law enforcement or military activities--no one can grant one, so let's put this straw man to rest right away. Beating someone up is assault and battery, which are either misdemeanors or felonies, depending on the degree of severity, and you're never free to do either one. Granting the freedom to extend a piece of code in whatever ways one's ingenuity allows, and do what one likes with those changes, doesn't take anything away from the original situation. If Apple takes BSD code and makes it do interesting things it couldn't before, you no worse off than you were before they did so, whether or not they share the source code for those changes with you. Who do you imagine is getting beaten up? How are you less free as a result? If Apple's changes--and unwillingness to share--offend you, don't buy anything from 'em. If others don't mind, do you feel that you know better and should be able to restrict _their_ freedom to buy Apple's products...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
How are you less free as a result? Apple's iPhone, for instance, contains open source software, but because it's totally reliant on un-free software I can't add VoIP via WiFi to it for instance, effectively nullifying the freedom aspect of the free software component for its users. All the effort that went into that free software to make it free is nullified for me as a user and Apple (a large purveyor or largely un-free software) gets a leg up (boosting it's ability to compete against free software) that it wouldn't have had if that software had been licenced under the GPL, effectively making the society I live in less free. This is nonsense, I'm afraid. All the effort that went into that free software to make it free (which doesn't seem quite sensible, but I think I get what you're attempting to communicate) is entirely unaltered: it's there in precisely the state it was when both you and Apple found it. Apple, by dint of hard work and creative effort (not to mention significant expenditure of time and resources) made it do other things which it could not before. You, however, want to have your cake and eat it, too. You seem to feel that because someone gave both you and Apple what amounts to a gift, that Apple, by virtue of having done something with that gift throught their own initiative, now owes _you_ a gift. If you insist on being able to add VoIP to your phone, don't get an iPhone, it's as simple as that. Apple invested in being able to compete. They should be able to realize a return on that investment; if they can't, they won't make the investment in the first place. If you want to make a similar investment in the same source code that Apple began with, there's nothing stopping you except your own energy and abilities. (Note that Apple invested well beyond the level of simply writing software: they developed hardware on which to run the software as well, and you have zero rights in that hardware in any case.) Apple's use of free software to create a closed device doesn't make society in general a bit less free. It doesn't restrict anyone's options beyond what they were previously, it doesn't take previously free software out of circulation. There's no basis to your argument here. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
As you point out, with Apple taking BSD software and 'competing against BSD', the market share for vanilla BSD is reduced. You can't however know whether in the medium-long term this is an 'overall good' which sped up Freedom through other interactions in the future or an overall bad. Apple geeks may migrate more easily to vanilla BSD because they are exposed to the standard terminal, and are frustrated at the limitations they find. More importantly (and very relevantly to this list) you can't compete for consumers on a basis of Not as good, but _more free_. If completely open phones are going to achieve any sort of dominance, then the same kind of work will have to go into project to support the capabilities that consumers want. More likely, this will prompt other phone manufacturers to try to find ways to compete with the iPhone in as reasonable a time as possible. Some of those ways will likely be based on Linux, and will likely wind up being a mix of proprietary and open source software, but the net outcome will be that there will be a larger amount of more capable open source software available in the product space, and more open source software being used in more devices like the NEO. It's pretty crazy for folks to be saying, But...those guys are _competing_ with BSD! Of course they are, that's what they _do_. And to compete back, BSD would have to get better. But BSD doesn't have goals of this sort: someone would have to take the initiative to make it happen. Wishing won't make it so, and somehow keeping Apple from doing it on their own won't either. But the suggestion that Apple's doing something wrong or something they shouldn't do by competing sounds...well, kind of like the stuff Microsoft likes to say about Linux, y' know? He who sets out to slay monsters must be careful that he does not become a monster himself in the process.--Friedrich Nietzsche ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More importantly (and very relevantly to this list) you can't compete for consumers on a basis of Not as good, but _more free_. If completely open phones are going to achieve any sort of dominance, then the same kind of work will have to go into project to support the capabilities that consumers want. Exactly - the one bonus that OpenMoko receives, in addition to the number of developers, is that we're not tied to any Corporate restrictions in design, contract or politically restricted technology - new software features 'saved up' for the next marketing phase. More likely, this will prompt other phone manufacturers to try to find ways to compete with the iPhone in as reasonable a time as possible. Some of those ways will likely be based on Linux, and will likely wind up being a mix of proprietary and open source software, but the net outcome will be that there will be a larger amount of more capable open source software available in the product space, and more open source software being used in more devices like the NEO. In evolutionary terms, this is a favourable environment for open vs closed software models. All free software written on open or selectively open hardware platforms, strengthens free software. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On Saturday 27 January 2007 08:38, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 16:10:43 Declan Naughton wrote: But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to take it away. If others take code under the BSDL and put it into a closed system, freedom doesn't go away at all. It just doesn't necessarily extend any further. BSD License: Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law. General Public License: Share and share alike. BSDL is technically a 'weak', or 'lazy' license, _insofar_ that whatever it's attached to may be arbitrarily inclosed by the inheritor, while GPL is technically a 'strong' ( viral? [1] ) license, in that it strictly enforces its own existence upon whatever it's attached to. BSDL contains an inherent self-destruct gene, GPL contains a built-in propagation gene. I very much appreciate and admire the BSDL for its straight-forward simplicity and its stark purity of intent [2] - whereas I value the GPL for its clear determined purpose in maintaining an atmosphere of sharing and collaboration to the equal benefit of all. Both licenses do in fact provide society with a wealth of Free software, and both obviously have their uses in particular general circumstances. That said, I think it can be readily observed that BSDL _tends_ to be more corporate-friendly, while GPL _tends_ to be more people-friendly. I do, however, have a tough time with the claim that BSDL is more free, because _actual_, _sustainable_ freedom/liberty requires certain obvious restrictions. [1] I don't think viral is accurate, because a virus intrudes its host and is either destructive or parasitic in some capacity, however I use it so nobody can accuse me of utilizing preferential language for GPL vs BDSL; i.e. weak, lazy [2] the GPL will no longer be necessary when, to merrily paraphrase Thoreau: I heartily accept the motto, That [software-license] is best which governs least; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--That [software-license] is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of license which they will have. ... BSDL governs not at all, which the anarchist in me very much appreciates. To digress further, what I would love to see, is a license with the full explicit _spirit_ of the GPL, but which does not actually enforce that spirit through any means other than its own merit. Beers! Corey ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(offlist) On 27/01/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is simply untrue. The fact is, as originally stated, that the BSD preceded the GPL (by two years or ten) I would really appeciate some evidence of this. Here my evidence that the original BSD license was first used in 1989, the same year as the original GPL: In June 1989 the Berkeley group took just this approach, releasing the TCP/IP code and a set of supporting utilities that had been written without any ATT code as 'Networking Release 1.' 'Networking Release 1 came with generous licensing terms. This was the first example of what would later be called a BSD-style license. - http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22came+with+generous+licensing+terms%22 -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/28/07, Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BSDL contains an inherent self-destruct gene, GPL contains a built-in propagation gene. And Non-Free Software contains a built-in propagation gene which cannot evolve its medium (technology) as quickly as the license-gene for Free Software can. But evolution requires competition, and this is why I think the relationship between free and non-free software is becoming increasingly sybiotic - when private companies do something which benefit themselves and improve the quality of Free Software - it's a win/win for Freedom and Technology. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(offlist) Not. I would really appeciate some evidence of this... Fine. You're correct that the GPL and the BSD came out in the same year. In any case, there was, as I've said, plenty of free software (although few licenses) a decade and more before any of this. Now that I've agreed that I was incorrect on that fairly minor point, how about you provide the evidence to support your contention that copyright was intended to benefit the general public when they could not make copies of their own? Also, perhaps a response to my question as to how I'm being unethical by using Photoshop and Illustrator. I'm likewise still very interested in understanding how it's more wrong to respect the wishes of an artist as regards the publication of his or her material than it is to tell a friend that you feel they ought to purchase a copy of the material in question in accordance with those wishes. Not to mention an explanation about where I got left in your ethical analysis when you decided it was less wrong for you to hand your friend a copy of my photograph, gratis, for use in his magazine, than it was for him to rob me of the fee I ask for the use of that photograph. Your turn. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))
On 24 Jan 2007, at 7:13 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: Where did I, or anybody else, DEMAND that OpenMoko give credit to GNU? Dave Crossland's demanded it on a couple of occasions. Go back and reread his latest messages, particularly his message of 6:13 am this morning. It might help things if you didn't continue to make bald face lies David. Renaissance Man___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))
I think we've heard the viewpoints of both sides... In my humble opinion, this whole discussion (while it showed some good viewpoints on both sides) is a bit premature. We haven't seen any documentation from the Openmoko team that suggests that they use one notation or the other. As Sean already stated; they will acknowledge the importance of GNU; how they do that is their decision. So please, let this discussion die. sincerely, Marcel de Jong On 1/25/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you denying that you lied about people making demands? No one has made any demands. It is not a personal attack to point out that this is a bald faced lie. It appears farcical that you keep adding to this thread while complaining that it is being continued. If you don't like the discussion, stay out of it. But I understand why you want to drag the discussion into the gutter; you can't argue your point of view rationally so you attempt to drag the discussion down, accuse your opponents of religious fervour, and then declare the discussion silly and over. Renaissance Man On 25 Jan 2007, at 9:32 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: It might help things if you didn't continue to make bald face lies David. Not as much it would help things if you'd stop behaving like a four-year-old, and stop wasting everyone's time with exactly the sort of personal attacks you were whining about just a couple of days ago. You (still) seem to be the one who's most guilty of making them. Consistency isn't your strong suit, is it? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Hi Sean, On 23/01/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You must be reading a different link. Sean's email most clearly states in the form of a user's manual that will give credit to GNU. He also clearly stated We'll just call it OpenMoko. Could you confirm that if FIC writes that OpenMoko is based on a popular free software operating system, that will be described as GNU/Linux instead of Linux? -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Gosh, why does this fail to surprise me? Didn't you get to say your piece already? Why don't you harass the Ubuntu folks with this, hm? There are many more folks calling it Linux than GNU/Linux, and very few people who seem to care strongly about your over-developed sense of history and ethics, but you seem to be hgving trouble accepting that. One _more_ time: you are dragging down the signal-to-noise ratio on the list with this persistent silliness. I thought you'd developed a little maturity and decided to drop it and stay on topic, but I see I was over-optimistic. It's got nothing to do with ethics: it has to do with someone's obsessive (and at least four lengthy web pages on the subject counts in my book as obsessive) need to get the credit he feels he deserves but has been cheated out of by common parlance. Better still, tell you what: since you're all about the ethics here, go and get the folks at GNU to change the name of their system to GNU/Mach and _then_ come back to talk to _us_. Ethics should start at home. On 1/24/07 8:15 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 23/01/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Free software existed before GNU - Free software philosophies and movements existed before GNU - Free software will continue to exist after GNU - Free software philosophies and movements will continue to exist after GNU - GNU is not the One True Way (tm) of free software, never was, and never will be I feel it is misleading to describe code distributed in the 1960s and 70s as 'free software' - because software freedom was not recognised or enshrined. It would be like labelling early farmers as organic. It's okay for you to disagree, but this doesn't give you the right to keep browbeating people into accepting the religion of GNU. This is a matter of ethics, not religion. When you call it religion, do you mean it is purely arbitrary and not worth thinking about? Do you dismiss all ethics by calling it religion? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Could you just drop this line of discussion, or pursue it off-list...? If they refer to it as Linux they'll be in line with pretty much every major _Linux_ distribution out there. On 1/24/07 6:11 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sean, On 23/01/07, David Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You must be reading a different link. Sean's email most clearly states in the form of a user's manual that will give credit to GNU. He also clearly stated We'll just call it OpenMoko. Could you confirm that if FIC writes that OpenMoko is based on a popular free software operating system, that will be described as GNU/Linux instead of Linux? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On Wednesday 24 January 2007 17:15, Dave Crossland wrote: I feel it is misleading to describe code distributed in the 1960s and 70s as 'free software' - because software freedom was not recognised or enshrined. Ok, now that's just being ridiculous. And besides, the BSDL predates the GPLv1 by a decade. And many would argue (I certainly do, but obviously not the FSF) that the BSDL is much more free than the GPL. It would be like labelling early farmers as organic. Which they very clearly were. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better still, tell you what: since you're all about the ethics here, go and get the folks at GNU to change the name of their system to GNU/Mach and _then_ come back to talk to _us_. I might ask about that alright. Why don't you harass the Ubuntu folks with this, hm? Maybe we're not that involved or interested in Ubuntu development? We're on the OpenMoko community list, we wanna discuss this. Awaiting Sean's reply to Crossland... It's got nothing to do with ethics: it has to do with someone's obsessive [snip] need to get the credit he feels he deserves but has been cheated out of by common parlance. Yeah, because Richard Stallman CLEARLY does not give any sorta crap about software freedom at all. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/24/07 9:51 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better still, tell you what: since you're all about the ethics here, go and get the folks at GNU to change the name of their system to GNU/Mach and _then_ come back to talk to _us_. I might ask about that alright. You do that. Let us know how it works out. When the FSF gets their _own_ little confusions about who's the 'principal developer of what sorted out, they'll be in a (slightly) more tenable position to wander in and make demands of others. Until that happens, this demand of yours seems entirely hypocritical, given the genesis of the (soi-disant) GNU kernel. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07 9:51 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better still, tell you what: since you're all about the ethics here, go and get the folks at GNU to change the name of their system to GNU/Mach and _then_ come back to talk to _us_. I might ask about that alright. You do that. Let us know how it works out. When the FSF gets their _own_ little confusions about who's the 'principal developer of what sorted out, they'll be in a (slightly) more tenable position to wander in and make demands of others. Until that happens, this demand of yours seems entirely hypocritical, given the genesis of the (soi-disant) GNU kernel. As far as I am aware, OpenMoko is not using the GNU/CMU Mach kernel.. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Declan Naughton wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07 9:51 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better still, tell you what: since you're all about the ethics here, go and get the folks at GNU to change the name of their system to GNU/Mach and _then_ come back to talk to _us_. I might ask about that alright. You do that. Let us know how it works out. When the FSF gets their _own_ little confusions about who's the 'principal developer of what sorted out, they'll be in a (slightly) more tenable position to wander in and make demands of others. Until that happens, this demand of yours seems entirely hypocritical, given the genesis of the (soi-disant) GNU kernel. As far as I am aware, OpenMoko is not using the GNU/CMU Mach kernel.. OK, this is a really silly argument and I have tried to keep out of it but does anyone even know how much GNU software is in OpenMoko? I would assume they are using busybox like every other embedded machine. While GPLed, I do not believe that it is GNU program. Dropbear ssh (another common embedded app) is MIT-style licensed, etc. How much GNU software must be on the system to qualify as GNU/Linux? Ray ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/24/07, Raymond Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Declan Naughton wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07 9:51 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better still, tell you what: since you're all about the ethics here, go and get the folks at GNU to change the name of their system to GNU/Mach and _then_ come back to talk to _us_. I might ask about that alright. You do that. Let us know how it works out. When the FSF gets their _own_ little confusions about who's the 'principal developer of what sorted out, they'll be in a (slightly) more tenable position to wander in and make demands of others. Until that happens, this demand of yours seems entirely hypocritical, given the genesis of the (soi-disant) GNU kernel. As far as I am aware, OpenMoko is not using the GNU/CMU Mach kernel.. OK, this is a really silly argument and I have tried to keep out of it but does anyone even know how much GNU software is in OpenMoko? I would assume they are using busybox like every other embedded machine. While GPLed, I do not believe that it is GNU program. Dropbear ssh (another common embedded app) is MIT-style licensed, etc. How much GNU software must be on the system to qualify as GNU/Linux? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001655.html See also the GNU/Linux FAQ at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))
On 1/24/07 10:20 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I am aware, OpenMoko is not using the GNU/CMU Mach kernel.. No, they're certainly not. However, GNU _is_ and they're failing to give appropriate credit to the principal developer of their system. So on what basis are you demanding that OpenMoko give credit to GNU when GNU refuses to give credit to Mach...? As I've said, that's nothing more than self-serving hypocrisy. Physician, heal thyself. Do you folks intend to keep this discussion going until you either get your way or the heat death of the Universe takes place...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))
On 1/24/07 11:03 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07 10:20 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I am aware, OpenMoko is not using the GNU/CMU Mach kernel.. No, they're certainly not. However, GNU _is_ and they're failing to give appropriate credit to the principal developer of their system. So on what basis are you demanding that OpenMoko give credit to GNU when GNU refuses to give credit to Mach...? As I've said, that's nothing more than self-serving hypocrisy. Where did I, or anybody else, DEMAND that OpenMoko give credit to GNU? Dave Crossland's demanded it on a couple of occasions. Go back and reread his latest messages, particularly his message of 6:13 am this morning. GNU refuse to give credit to Mach? They only call the microkernel GNU *MACH*! No, this is _absconding_ with credit which belongs to someone else, specifically the CMU Mach team; naming someone else's work after yourself doesn't constitute giving them credit by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. GNU simply took advantage of the unlicensed state of Mach, relicensed it unilaterally under the GPL and re-christened it. If GNU's contribution to GNU/Linux is significant enough to merit endless discussion of giving them credit on mailing lists which are dedicated to other topics, why is CMU's contribution to GNU (so-called) not given equal shrift? Why this Oh, I'll ask about it... hand-waving? Does your commitment to freedom only extend to efforts on behalf of the FSF...? Let GNU resolve their own issues with giving appropriate credit before you start insisting that others do the same for GNU. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free This Mailing List! (was Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone))
On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07 11:03 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/24/07 10:20 AM, Declan Naughton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I am aware, OpenMoko is not using the GNU/CMU Mach kernel.. No, they're certainly not. However, GNU _is_ and they're failing to give appropriate credit to the principal developer of their system. So on what basis are you demanding that OpenMoko give credit to GNU when GNU refuses to give credit to Mach...? As I've said, that's nothing more than self-serving hypocrisy. Where did I, or anybody else, DEMAND that OpenMoko give credit to GNU? Dave Crossland's demanded it on a couple of occasions. Go back and reread his latest messages, particularly his message of 6:13 am this morning. Can't find anything.. If you could link me from http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/ I'd appreciate it. GNU refuse to give credit to Mach? They only call the microkernel GNU *MACH*! No, this is _absconding_ with credit which belongs to someone else, specifically the CMU Mach team; naming someone else's work after yourself doesn't constitute giving them credit by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. GNU simply took advantage of the unlicensed state of Mach, relicensed it unilaterally under the GPL and re-christened it. If GNU's contribution to GNU/Linux is significant enough to merit endless discussion of giving them credit on mailing lists which are dedicated to other topics, why is CMU's contribution to GNU (so-called) not given equal shrift? Why this Oh, I'll ask about it... hand-waving? Does your commitment to freedom only extend to efforts on behalf of the FSF...? I looked into it, a bit. GNU forked Mach 4, creating GNU _Mach_. I don't get your problem.. Also (from a GNU/Hurd developer) Not to mention that we never try to discredit CMU for the work they did and If we called Mach for Hcam or something then such a argument might have a point and For example, by calling GNU for `Linux' you discredit the GNU project by insinuating that Linus et al wrote GNU. My commitment to freedom I would well say does extend past the efforts of the FSF. Let GNU resolve their own issues with giving appropriate credit before you start insisting that others do the same for GNU. Again, *I* am not insisting on anything. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 01:38]: I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing about Linux). rant Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Or just so long on the free software train, that I take liberty as an important criteria if a piece of software is relevant. I'm really not a zealot, but I usually avoid learning anything about closed things that I cannot use. And being a contractor, that means that anything forbidding commercial usage is out. OTOH, it's funny how many opensource projects make it hard to get that information. No licence page on the homepage. One sometimes needs to fetch the source to check the license. /rant Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 01:38]: I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing about Linux). Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Yes, and the GNU GPL's introduction text is a very well written introduction to the GNU project. However, there are many people who have heard of Linux and open source and have never read any software licenses. Proprietary EULAs are so full of legal language non-sense, the idea that a software license could be interesting is very strange :-) The only way that people hear about GNU is by other people talking about it. This is why it is important that the operating system we love, which was started by the GNU project, makes -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(sorry for the premature post) On 22/01/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 01:38]: I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing about Linux). Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Yes, and the GNU GPL's introduction text is a very well written introduction to the GNU project. However, there are many people who have heard of Linux and open source and have never read any software licenses. Proprietary EULAs are so full of legal language non-sense, the idea that a software license could be interesting is very strange :-) The only way that people hear about GNU is by other people talking about it. This is why it is important that the operating system we love, which was started in the GNU project, says that it is a variant of the GNU system plus the Linux kernel. This is well explained in the essay at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, Marcel de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like more Neos. How does adding three more letters and a / increase people's knowledge on free and open software? I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) If you name the system Linux, you suggest a version of the system's origin, history, and purpose that is not true. If you call it GNU/Linux, you present a more accurate idea. This is explained in depth at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Joe Schmoe goes into a store to buy a new phone. He sees a large selection of phones in the store. He's in the market of a smartphone, so he choses the department of smartphones. And then goes looking at the specs and the software bundled with the phone. He sees that he can choose between phones that run Microsoft Windows Mobile, Symbian, PalmOS, Nokia proprietary OS, Sony/Ericsson proprietary OS, and GNU/Linux. Then looks at the software. Okay, Windows has a nice layout, and has some really nice apps. PalmOS' UI is nicely integrated, all apps look decent, though the input system is something to get used to. Symbian looks dated and both S/E's as well as Nokia's system look clunky. The GNU/Linux package looks nice too, and look this one even has GPS built-in, and has all accessories added in the bundle for merely $350! That looks like a great system. I'll take it. Joe is judging these phones on purely practical values. The Free Software concept is that there are things more important than practical values - although it does not say that pratical values are unimportant, they clearly are very important. What is more important than practical values? Community and freedom. Joe Schmoe doesn't care whether it's GNU/Linux or 'just' Linux. It's not as if he's going to Google GNU/Linux while he's in the store to find out the core-principles of the software. It is exactely as if he is going to do that :-) RenaissanceMan has posted in this thread that he has done just that. What he does care about is that It Just Works(tm). If he has never had a smartphone before, he is likely to only care for practical values like if it just works. But if he has owned a smartphone before, he will likely be frustrated with the restrictions that it has imposed on him, because of its proprietary nature. That is why there is such buzz around OpenMoko: At last, a chance to escape proprietary restrictions and get the same freedom and community we are used to with our desktops and laptops :-) If he takes it out of the box, and charges the unit does the phone work, can he call his buddies to tell about his new acquisition, can he text his mates, can he use the calendar? It should just work, and easily without having to hack the system. (this should especially hold true for the 'consumer phone' that was announced in Openmoko's press release) Calling the system GNU/Linux instead of Linux will not effect this, at all. Sure, credit where credit is due, and I don't see any problem with having the manual refer to GNU/Linux (but I also have no qualms if it doesn't). It would be unfair if it didn't. I like to be fair. But I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute 3 letters and a / to all-customer awareness of the principles behind it. For many years the idea of a free software operating system was far fetched. These principles are quite potent, I'd say :-) If someone buys the phone merely on the grounds that it runs Linux, chances are he or she is already aware of the history and ideals behind GNU and Linux. I disagree. The ideas behind the GNU system and the Linux kernel are very different, and many GNU/Linux users believe the system was started in 1991, by a student, for fun. This is sustained by calling the system Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Let's not get lost in this bottomless pit of misconceptions and well-intended suggestions. Yes, by remaining polite and rational :-) And let's focus our efforts on making this phone a device which Just Works! :) I have no doubt about that :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) It simply never ends, does it? Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume, that when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of adequate (or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...? I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that GNU is a principal developer doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here. So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do so? I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual difference is between Linux (I've _heard_ of _that_!) and _GNU_/Linux. So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages community better. Does it make the phone _do_ anything different? Other than encouraging freedom, no. Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get a Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this GNU stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it really works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs _Linux_...? Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
David, if you're not interested in the topic take note of the subject in your inbox and stop reading the thread. Don't troll the thread with inflammatory arguments and personal attacks. You may have made up your mind but there are clearly other people who would like to continue the discussion, since they're asking questions. Crossland was doing just that, answering someone's question. It's okay for you to disagree, but this doesn't give you the right to keep browbeating people into stopping the discussion. Renaissance Man On 22 Jan 2007, at 7:29 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) It simply never ends, does it? Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume, that when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of adequate (or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...? I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that GNU is a principal developer doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here. So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do so? I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual difference is between Linux (I've _heard_ of _that_!) and _GNU_/Linux. So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages community better. Does it make the phone _do_ anything different? Other than encouraging freedom, no. Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get a Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this GNU stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it really works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs _Linux_...? Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux.. If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools then you obviously couldn't say it was running linux which a lot of people would still say but you could say it was running a gnu based OS.. GNU is the operating system which just happens to use a linux kernel.. it could use any other kernel.. even HURD :). Sorry for the rant! Edit: Actually, I think it would be far better just to call it mokOS or something.. if you call it linux or gnu/linux is equally confusing to some people.. what, so it runs ubuntu? (redhat, suse, slackware - whichever one the person has heard of) Alan On 1/22/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 22/01/07, Marcel de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like more Neos. How does adding three more letters and a / increase people's knowledge on free and open software? I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) If you name the system Linux, you suggest a version of the system's origin, history, and purpose that is not true. If you call it GNU/Linux, you present a more accurate idea. This is explained in depth at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Joe Schmoe goes into a store to buy a new phone. He sees a large selection of phones in the store. He's in the market of a smartphone, so he choses the department of smartphones. And then goes looking at the specs and the software bundled with the phone. He sees that he can choose between phones that run Microsoft Windows Mobile, Symbian, PalmOS, Nokia proprietary OS, Sony/Ericsson proprietary OS, and GNU/Linux. Then looks at the software. Okay, Windows has a nice layout, and has some really nice apps. PalmOS' UI is nicely integrated, all apps look decent, though the input system is something to get used to. Symbian looks dated and both S/E's as well as Nokia's system look clunky. The GNU/Linux package looks nice too, and look this one even has GPS built-in, and has all accessories added in the bundle for merely $350! That looks like a great system. I'll take it. Joe is judging these phones on purely practical values. The Free Software concept is that there are things more important than practical values - although it does not say that pratical values are unimportant, they clearly are very important. What is more important than practical values? Community and freedom. Joe Schmoe doesn't care whether it's GNU/Linux or 'just' Linux. It's not as if he's going to Google GNU/Linux while he's in the store to find out the core-principles of the software. It is exactely as if he is going to do that :-) RenaissanceMan has posted in this thread that he has done just that. What he does care about is that It Just Works(tm). If he has never had a smartphone before, he is likely to only care for practical values like if it just works. But if he has owned a smartphone before, he will likely be frustrated with the restrictions that it has imposed on him, because of its proprietary nature. That is why there is such buzz around OpenMoko: At last, a chance to escape proprietary restrictions and get the same freedom and community we are used to with our desktops and laptops :-) If he takes it out of the box, and charges the unit does the phone work, can he call his buddies to tell about his new acquisition, can he text his mates, can he use the calendar? It should just work, and easily without having to hack the system. (this should especially hold true for the 'consumer phone' that was announced in Openmoko's press release) Calling the system GNU/Linux instead of Linux will not effect this, at all. Sure, credit where credit is due, and I don't see any problem with having the manual refer to GNU/Linux (but I also have no qualms if it doesn't). It would be unfair if it didn't. I like to be fair. But I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute 3 letters and a / to all-customer awareness of the principles behind it. For many years the idea of a free software operating system was far fetched. These principles are quite potent, I'd say :-) If someone buys the phone merely on the grounds that it runs Linux, chances are he or she is already aware of the history and ideals behind GNU and Linux. I disagree. The ideas behind the GNU system and the Linux kernel are very different, and many GNU/Linux users believe the system was started in 1991, by a student, for fun. This is sustained by calling the system Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Let's not get lost in this bottomless pit of
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, MR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux. That's originally what this thead was about, yes. It's not clear which term FIC will adopt for their release at this point. But they did say that they will promote OpenMoko more than anything else as the name for the system, probably for the reasons you cited :-) If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools There is this possibility: http://www.gnusolaris.org and http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
* Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 21:37]: That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to wikipedia-stable, might instead say: So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, please call it GNU/Linux. You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop, just... stop? :-) I'm not agitated, I simply (as do others) view this whole discussion as off-topic, divisive, unproductive and out-of-place here. Why on _this_ list? Surely, you'd have more impact with your crusade if you went and pestered the Ubuntu folks to make _their_ site say _GNU_/Linux for Human Beings. Not to mention getting the SuSe folks to change their product name to SuSE _GNU_/Linux, and the Red Hat folks to change _theirs_ to Red Hat _GNU_/Linux, and the Mandriva folks, and the Knoppix folks, and the Gentoo folks, etc., etc., etc. There have been literally dozens of messages on these threads, the plurality of 'em from you, and after the first half-dozen or so, there's been nothing new to say. Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? It sure makes it not worth clogging up an unrelated mailing list with endless messages about it. Is there other misinformation you're going to feel impelled to correct us on? Why don't you invest in finding a better PR agency for the FSF instead? (The fact is that the principal designer of the GNU system hasn't managed to get an actual working _system_ worth talking about put together so far, and no change in sight, in spite of having had since 1983 to work on it. The kernel isn't even GNU development, it was lifted pretty much wholesale from CMU's work on Mach, simply relicensed under GPL and re-christened GNU Mach. So Avie Tevanian and the guys from CMU clearly deserve credit: the putative OS should be the GNU/Mach System in order to give credit to its principal designers...) I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to discuss the history and origin of Australia. And it would be just as off-topic if you were discussing the history and origins of Australia on this mailing list as it is for you to be insisting that folks refer free software _your_ way here... Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-) Apparently, you've never met an actual cell phone customer. Your sales-droid would have lost them a third of the way into the second sentence. Remember: by definition, half of the folks out there are of below average intelligence. They still buy cell phones. You should drop this, and stick to the subject matter of the mailing list: the FIC phone and the OpenMoko platform. As others have pointed out, you're reducing the signal-to-noise ratio with this. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Let's just call it GNU/Linux and be done with it. On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop, just... stop? :-) I'm not agitated, I simply (as do others) view this whole discussion as off-topic, divisive, unproductive and out-of-place here. Why on _this_ list? Surely, you'd have more impact with your crusade if you went and pestered the Ubuntu folks to make _their_ site say _GNU_/Linux for Human Beings. Not to mention getting the SuSe folks to change their product name to SuSE _GNU_/Linux, and the Red Hat folks to change _theirs_ to Red Hat _GNU_/Linux, and the Mandriva folks, and the Knoppix folks, and the Gentoo folks, etc., etc., etc. There have been literally dozens of messages on these threads, the plurality of 'em from you, and after the first half-dozen or so, there's been nothing new to say. Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? It sure makes it not worth clogging up an unrelated mailing list with endless messages about it. Is there other misinformation you're going to feel impelled to correct us on? Why don't you invest in finding a better PR agency for the FSF instead? (The fact is that the principal designer of the GNU system hasn't managed to get an actual working _system_ worth talking about put together so far, and no change in sight, in spite of having had since 1983 to work on it. The kernel isn't even GNU development, it was lifted pretty much wholesale from CMU's work on Mach, simply relicensed under GPL and re-christened GNU Mach. So Avie Tevanian and the guys from CMU clearly deserve credit: the putative OS should be the GNU/Mach System in order to give credit to its principal designers...) I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to discuss the history and origin of Australia. And it would be just as off-topic if you were discussing the history and origins of Australia on this mailing list as it is for you to be insisting that folks refer free software _your_ way here... Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-) Apparently, you've never met an actual cell phone customer. Your sales-droid would have lost them a third of the way into the second sentence. Remember: by definition, half of the folks out there are of below average intelligence. They still buy cell phones. You should drop this, and stick to the subject matter of the mailing list: the FIC phone and the OpenMoko platform. As others have pointed out, you're reducing the signal-to-noise ratio with this. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It simply never ends, does it? One can hope :-) Next time I get another argument on this subject in my inbox, I'm going to simply email this back-to-sender, not the entire list: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux Thus hopefully, we can get back to the fun and interesting stuff! Of course, it may be vandalised, or 'improved' upon, but I'm also not going to touch that page again, so go ahead! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
From: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux This debate cannot be won, by either side. Sometimes intelligent people disagree, this is A Good Thing. Actually I thought it was pretty clear from Sean's comment on the matter that, with regard to OpenMoko, that GNU/Linux does indeed win the day: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001720.html Renaissance Man On 23 Jan 2007, at 12:30 am, Richard Franks wrote: On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It simply never ends, does it? One can hope :-) Next time I get another argument on this subject in my inbox, I'm going to simply email this back-to-sender, not the entire list: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux Thus hopefully, we can get back to the fun and interesting stuff! Of course, it may be vandalised, or 'improved' upon, but I'm also not going to touch that page again, so go ahead! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I believe we already saw Sean's reply to you and he said GNU would be credited in the documentation. -david p.s. the more people blabber about GNU, the more I try to remove it from my system and support non-GNU replacements. this is called the point of where proselytizing is no longer informing people, it's annoying them [insert vibrant verbs as desired] and pushing them away. it also harms the FSF. consider all the bad press that happens as a side effect when you evangelize GNU. Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, MR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux. That's originally what this thead was about, yes. It's not clear which term FIC will adopt for their release at this point. But they did say that they will promote OpenMoko more than anything else as the name for the system, probably for the reasons you cited :-) If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools There is this possibility: http://www.gnusolaris.org and http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Most sales droids I know wouldn't even have a clue about either GNU or Linux :-D -david Andreas Kostyrka wrote: * Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 21:37]: That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to wikipedia-stable, might instead say: So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, please call it GNU/Linux. You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On Monday 22 January 2007 20:07, David Ford wrote: p.s. the more people blabber about GNU, the more I try to remove it from my system and support non-GNU replacements. That's obviously your prerogative, by all means. But... wow, talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water. I'm curious, which GNU software have you replaced non-GNU alternatives? Anyhow, good luck replacing: gcc make autotools glibc coreutils ... and friends. Now, I'm not using that as an example of how important GNU is, but rather to illuminate what a complete excercise in futility it would be for you to make some sort of personal stand by removing GNU software from your system. In fact, you'll be doubly hosed, because 99.9% of the free software you download and install will also themselves have been compiled with the above assortment of GNU software. Shooting oneself in the foot technically, because people can be annoying socially, is... well... a bit of a misguided solution, to put it lightly. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
