Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."

[BrendaWang]

William Lai ??:
>
> On Jul 22, 2008, at 2:13 AM, Michael Shiloh wrote:
>>
>> Josh Monson wrote:
>>> Has the list been created? The wiki-editors mailing list?
>>
>> yes. it's called documentation.
>>>
>>> Michael/Brenda,
>>> Is there any type of organizational plan at this point in terms of whom
>>> will be doing what,
>>
>> no, although i look to the original 4-5 volunteers to lead the effort.
>
> and Brenda.
> In fact she has been actively 'leading' since day 1, before any of 
> these discussions started.
>
>> if you want to be involved, the procedure should be this:
>>
>> 1. join the "documentation" mailing list
>> 2. respectfully listen for a bit, to see how the list flows
>> 3. make your offer of assistance, and let the "lead" volunteers guide 
>> you.
>> 4. if you have comments or suggestions, it would be polite to wait a
>> little longer to see how the active participants communicate amongst
>> themselves, how they identify and organize the work, and what they are
>> actually doing. they are probably already aware of whatever comment or
>> idea you have, and it would be impolite to push them.
>>
>> and will Brenda be coordinating the efforts I
>>> assume?
>>
>> no.
>
> Brenda is our official editor. She may not be coordinating, but she 
> will be around, giving guidance even if needed. We have an internal 
> effort to get content out of the wiki into a static page on 
> openmoko.com referencing development and how to get started with the 
> platform. Similar to: 
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_developer_guide. Brenda will 
> lead this effort. If there are any ideas on what should or should not 
> be in this material please pass it on to her. We see openmoko.com as 
> an important place for newcomers to get a glimpse of what we are 
> about, not just what we sell. Adding community efforts from the wiki 
> just seemed like the next logical upgrade.
>
> Regards,
>
> Will
>
Yes
Brenda
>
>


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new documentation mailing list (was: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation.")

[Michael Shiloh]

I defer to Will.

Michael

William Lai wrote:
> On Jul 22, 2008, at 2:13 AM, Michael Shiloh wrote:
>> Josh Monson wrote:
>>> Has the list been created? The wiki-editors mailing list?
>> yes. it's called documentation.
>>> Michael/Brenda,
>>> Is there any type of organizational plan at this point in terms of  
>>> whom
>>> will be doing what,
>> no, although i look to the original 4-5 volunteers to lead the effort.
> 
> and Brenda.
> In fact she has been actively 'leading' since day 1, before any of  
> these discussions started.
> 
>> if you want to be involved, the procedure should be this:
>>
>> 1. join the "documentation" mailing list
>> 2. respectfully listen for a bit, to see how the list flows
>> 3. make your offer of assistance, and let the "lead" volunteers  
>> guide you.
>> 4. if you have comments or suggestions, it would be polite to wait a
>> little longer to see how the active participants communicate amongst
>> themselves, how they identify and organize the work, and what they are
>> actually doing. they are probably already aware of whatever comment or
>> idea you have, and it would be impolite to push them.
>>
>> and will Brenda be coordinating the efforts I
>>> assume?
>> no.
> 
> Brenda is our official editor.  She may not be coordinating, but she  
> will be around, giving guidance even if needed.  We have an internal  
> effort to get content out of the wiki into a static page on  
> openmoko.com referencing development and how to get started with the  
> platform.  Similar to:  
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_developer_guide 
> .   Brenda will lead this effort.  If there are any ideas on what  
> should or should not be in this material please pass it on to her.  We  
> see openmoko.com as an important place for newcomers to get a glimpse  
> of what we are about, not just what we sell.  Adding community efforts  
> from the wiki just seemed like the next logical upgrade.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Will
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."

[William Lai]

On Jul 22, 2008, at 2:13 AM, Michael Shiloh wrote:
>
> Josh Monson wrote:
>> Has the list been created? The wiki-editors mailing list?
>
> yes. it's called documentation.
>>
>> Michael/Brenda,
>> Is there any type of organizational plan at this point in terms of  
>> whom
>> will be doing what,
>
> no, although i look to the original 4-5 volunteers to lead the effort.

and Brenda.
In fact she has been actively 'leading' since day 1, before any of  
these discussions started.

> if you want to be involved, the procedure should be this:
>
> 1. join the "documentation" mailing list
> 2. respectfully listen for a bit, to see how the list flows
> 3. make your offer of assistance, and let the "lead" volunteers  
> guide you.
> 4. if you have comments or suggestions, it would be polite to wait a
> little longer to see how the active participants communicate amongst
> themselves, how they identify and organize the work, and what they are
> actually doing. they are probably already aware of whatever comment or
> idea you have, and it would be impolite to push them.
>
> and will Brenda be coordinating the efforts I
>> assume?
>
> no.

Brenda is our official editor.  She may not be coordinating, but she  
will be around, giving guidance even if needed.  We have an internal  
effort to get content out of the wiki into a static page on  
openmoko.com referencing development and how to get started with the  
platform.  Similar to:  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_developer_guide 
.   Brenda will lead this effort.  If there are any ideas on what  
should or should not be in this material please pass it on to her.  We  
see openmoko.com as an important place for newcomers to get a glimpse  
of what we are about, not just what we sell.  Adding community efforts  
from the wiki just seemed like the next logical upgrade.

Regards,

Will




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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."

[Michael Shiloh]

Josh Monson wrote:
> Has the list been created? The wiki-editors mailing list?

yes. it's called documentation.


> 
> Michael/Brenda,
> Is there any type of organizational plan at this point in terms of whom
> will be doing what, 

no, although i look to the original 4-5 volunteers to lead the effort.

if you want to be involved, the procedure should be this:

1. join the "documentation" mailing list
2. respectfully listen for a bit, to see how the list flows
3. make your offer of assistance, and let the "lead" volunteers guide you.
4. if you have comments or suggestions, it would be polite to wait a 
little longer to see how the active participants communicate amongst 
themselves, how they identify and organize the work, and what they are 
actually doing. they are probably already aware of whatever comment or 
idea you have, and it would be impolite to push them.






and will Brenda be coordinating the efforts I
> assume?

no.

i won't be in charge in any strong sense, but i'll be the company 
representative and will guide only when necessary. i really see the 
original volunteers as the leaders here.



> I know this has all come up very quickly so it's totally understandable
> if there is no plan as of yet :P. Just trying to get coordination
> rolling.


hope this helps
> 
> Cheers and thanks again
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of steve
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:24 PM
> To: 'Steven **'; 'List for Openmoko community discussion'
> Cc: 'Brenda Wang'
> Subject: RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of
> mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."
> 
> The issue is the wiki grows like a weed. On one hand this is great since
> information just get posted.
> On the other hand this rhapsodic construction is difficult to navigate. 
> 
> So... Solutions welcomed. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven
> **
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:29 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Cc: Brenda Wang; steve
> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
> outdated and incomplete documentation."
> 
> I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
> like
> your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or just
> clean
> up your change however they like.  That's what makes the wiki so
> powerful.
> 
> If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
> down
> so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they aren't
> worried "regular" users might edit it.
> 
> -Steven
> 
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by 
>> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/ 
>> wiki/Distributions
>>
>> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the 
>> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
>> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>>
>> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>>   Introduction to Openmoko
>>   Openmoko Products
>>   Join Openmoko development
>>   Openmoko community
>>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
>> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>>
>> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the 
>> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As 
>> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
>> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly 
>> if you wish me to feel free.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>>
>>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>>
>>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda 
>>> Wang
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of 
>>> mostly 

Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."

[matt joyce]

Yes.
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/022628.html


Josh Monson wrote:
> Has the list been created? The wiki-editors mailing list?
>
> Michael/Brenda,
> Is there any type of organizational plan at this point in terms of whom
> will be doing what, and will Brenda be coordinating the efforts I
> assume?
> I know this has all come up very quickly so it's totally understandable
> if there is no plan as of yet :P. Just trying to get coordination
> rolling.
>
> Cheers and thanks again
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of steve
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:24 PM
> To: 'Steven **'; 'List for Openmoko community discussion'
> Cc: 'Brenda Wang'
> Subject: RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of
> mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."
>
> The issue is the wiki grows like a weed. On one hand this is great since
> information just get posted.
> On the other hand this rhapsodic construction is difficult to navigate. 
>
> So... Solutions welcomed. 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven
> **
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:29 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Cc: Brenda Wang; steve
> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>
> I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
> like
> your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or just
> clean
> up your change however they like.  That's what makes the wiki so
> powerful.
>
> If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
> down
> so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they aren't
> worried "regular" users might edit it.
>
> -Steven
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>   
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by 
>> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/ 
>> wiki/Distributions
>>
>> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the 
>> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
>> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>>
>> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>>   Introduction to Openmoko
>>   Openmoko Products
>>   Join Openmoko development
>>   Openmoko community
>>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
>> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>>
>> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the 
>> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As 
>> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
>> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly 
>> if you wish me to feel free.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>>
>>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>>
>>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda 
>>> Wang
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of 
>>> mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>>
>>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki 
>>> more easy to use.
>>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
>>> Index page.
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>>   
>>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM
>>>> 

RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."

[Josh Monson]

Has the list been created? The wiki-editors mailing list?

Michael/Brenda,
Is there any type of organizational plan at this point in terms of whom
will be doing what, and will Brenda be coordinating the efforts I
assume?
I know this has all come up very quickly so it's totally understandable
if there is no plan as of yet :P. Just trying to get coordination
rolling.

Cheers and thanks again

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:24 PM
To: 'Steven **'; 'List for Openmoko community discussion'
Cc: 'Brenda Wang'
Subject: RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of
mostlyoutdated and incomplete documentation."

The issue is the wiki grows like a weed. On one hand this is great since
information just get posted.
On the other hand this rhapsodic construction is difficult to navigate. 

So... Solutions welcomed. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven
**
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:29 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Cc: Brenda Wang; steve
Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
outdated and incomplete documentation."

I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
like
your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or just
clean
up your change however they like.  That's what makes the wiki so
powerful.

If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
down
so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they aren't
worried "regular" users might edit it.

-Steven

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by 
> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/ 
> wiki/Distributions
>
> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the 
> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>
> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>   Introduction to Openmoko
>   Openmoko Products
>   Join Openmoko development
>   Openmoko community
>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>
> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the 
> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As 
> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly 
> if you wish me to feel free.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>
>> Brenda
>>
>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>
>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>
>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda 
>> Wang
>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of 
>> mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>
>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki 
>> more easy to use.
>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
>> Index page.
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Brenda
>>
>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>
>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM

>>> Wiki.
>>>
>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>
>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I
search
>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never 
>>> know it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it 
>>> existed was Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>
>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on 
>>> the search engine, it sucks..
>>>
>&

Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[JW]

On 18/07/2008, JW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ok here are two ideas
>
> 1) Use mind mapping software using the existing links in the WIKI to let
> people search / view the wiki info in a different way
>
> 2) Allow each page to be receive votes in the following ways
>

 i) can give whole page or section of a page a rating (5=good info 1=
bad or suspect or outofdate)
 ii) people can see when the votes were given
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[JW]

Ok here are two ideas

1) Use mind mapping software using the existing links in the WIKI to let
people search / view the wiki info in a different way

2) Allow each page to be receive votes in the following ways



On 18/07/2008, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 06:23:39PM -0700, steve wrote:
> > The issue is the wiki grows like a weed. On one hand this is great since
> > information just get posted.
> > On the other hand this rhapsodic construction is difficult to navigate.
> >
> > So... Solutions welcomed.
>
>   This is what the wiki editors are for: if someone puts something in
> the "wrong" place, they move it to a more suitable one. It'll just
> take a little time to work out what the right places should be.
>
>   Hugo.
>
> --
> === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | 
> lug.org.uk ===
> PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
>   --- I must be musical:  I've got *loads* of CDs ---
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD4DBQFIgEznIKyzvlFcI40RAo6qAKCA+S6Ol9ZhWRLqmydZ7WiKxWUJjACYxUqf
> xT03LrQVLwOy59K4klhcCQ==
> =ox9r
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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>
>
>
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Hugo Mills]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 06:23:39PM -0700, steve wrote:
> The issue is the wiki grows like a weed. On one hand this is great since
> information just get posted.
> On the other hand this rhapsodic construction is difficult to navigate. 
> 
> So... Solutions welcomed. 

   This is what the wiki editors are for: if someone puts something in
the "wrong" place, they move it to a more suitable one. It'll just
take a little time to work out what the right places should be.

   Hugo.

-- 
=== Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk 
===
  PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
   --- I must be musical:  I've got *loads* of CDs ---   


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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Hugo Mills]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 03:29:11PM -0500, Steven ** wrote:
> I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
> like your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or
> just clean up your change however they like.  That's what makes the
> wiki so powerful.
> 
> If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
> down so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they
> aren't worried "regular" users might edit it.

   My local LUG set up a wiki several years ago. So many people were
afraid of editing the wiki, eliciting the response, "Well, it *is* a
wiki...", that we eventually had people turning up to meetings with
the phrase printed on their t-shirts.

   Hugo.

-- 
=== Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk 
===
  PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
   --- I must be musical:  I've got *loads* of CDs ---   


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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Brenda Wang]

Yes, these tree parts is the core of wiki.
The most important .

Brenda

steve wrote:
> Organizing the wiki is a monumental task.
>
> My suggestion for the front page was three categories as opposed to your 5
>
> 1. Products.
> 2. Developer resources.
> 3. Community.
>
> No system will be perfect and no organization of data will suit everyone
> since we all carve
> The world up in different ways.
>
> That said, I would not object to the 5 categories you suggest.
>
> The biggest issue is the massive amount of knowledge the community generates
> about the devices.
>
> This knowledge needs to be structured and disseminated.
>
> Easier said than done.
>
>
>  
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Stroller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:19 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Cc: steve; Brenda Wang
> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>
> Hi there,
>
> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by editing
> the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/
> wiki/Distributions
>
> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the "Current
> software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ NeoSoftwareStack ??
>
> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>Introduction to Openmoko
>Openmoko Products
>Join Openmoko development
>Openmoko community
>Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>
> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the "Introduction to
> Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As a user I feel reluctant
> to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"  
> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly if you
> wish me to feel free.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>
>   
>> Brenda
>>
>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>
>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>
>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of 
>> mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>
>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki 
>> more easy to use.
>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
>> Index page.
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Brenda
>>
>> Scott Derrick ??:
>> 
>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>
>>>   
>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM 
>>> Wiki.
>>>
>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>
>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never 
>>> know it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it 
>>> existed was Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>
>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on 
>>> the search engine, it sucks..
>>>
>>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
>>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find 
>>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>   
>
>   


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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Brenda Wang]

I put Distributions page link on mainpage , now .
On the Join Openmoko development
Every one can find this links on
Distributions section.

Thanks for reminding.
And feel free to let me know , what else I miss?
or ???

Brenda


Stroller wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by 
> editing the main page & adding a link to 
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>
> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the 
> "Current software stack" link to 
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NeoSoftwareStack ??
>
> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>   Introduction to Openmoko
>   Openmoko Products
>   Join Openmoko development
>   Openmoko community
>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>
> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the 
> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As 
> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs" 
> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly 
> if you wish me to feel free.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>
>> Brenda
>>
>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>
>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>
>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
>> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>
>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki 
>> more easy
>> to use.
>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
>> Index
>> page.
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Brenda
>>
>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>
>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM 
>>> Wiki.
>>>
>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>
>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never know
>>> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was
>>> Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>
>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and
>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on the
>>> search engine, it sucks..
>>>
>>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT
>>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find
>>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>


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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

Ok. Finally! Done.

The main page is built up from, as I perceive it, an ugly mess of  
templates.

The box underneath the green "Introduction to Openmoko" (containing  
the "Original core team" ... "Why Openmoko?" links) is put there by  
referencing Template:Mainpage - this contains nothign but the box and  
inside that {{submenu}}. Template:Submenu, then contains the actual  
words and links of "Original core team" ... "Why Openmoko?".

Sorry to clutter the main list with this - I'll be off of here (as  
far as this subject goes) immediately the wiki mailing-list is  
created - but can anyone familiar with big wikis tell me if this is  
normal?

I'm all for breaking big wossisnames into components, but this seems  
a little excessive - I had to visit 3 pages in order to edit a single  
link.

Stroller.



On 17 Jul 2008, at 21:29, Steven ** wrote:

> I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
> like your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or
> just clean up your change however they like.  That's what makes the
> wiki so powerful.
>
> If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
> down so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they
> aren't worried "regular" users might edit it.
>
> -Steven
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by
>> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/
>> wiki/Distributions
>>
>> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the
>> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/
>> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>>
>> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>>   Introduction to Openmoko
>>   Openmoko Products
>>   Join Openmoko development
>>   Openmoko community
>>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
>> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>>
>> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the
>> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As
>> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
>> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly
>> if you wish me to feel free.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>>
>>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>>
>>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda  
>>> Wang
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of
>>> mostly
>>> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>>
>>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki
>>> more easy
>>> to use.
>>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use
>>> this Index
>>> page.
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>>
>>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the
>>>> OM Wiki.
>>>>
>>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>>
>>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I  
>>>> search
>>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never
>>>> know
>>>> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it  
>>>> existed was
>>>> Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>>
>>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and
>>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on
>>>> the
>>>> search engine, it sucks..
>>>>
>>>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the  
>>>> OpenWRT
>>>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find
>>>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>
>
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RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[steve]

The issue is the wiki grows like a weed. On one hand this is great since
information just get posted.
On the other hand this rhapsodic construction is difficult to navigate. 

So... Solutions welcomed. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:29 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Cc: Brenda Wang; steve
Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
outdated and incomplete documentation."

I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't like
your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or just clean
up your change however they like.  That's what makes the wiki so powerful.

If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it down
so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they aren't
worried "regular" users might edit it.

-Steven

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by 
> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/ 
> wiki/Distributions
>
> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the 
> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>
> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>   Introduction to Openmoko
>   Openmoko Products
>   Join Openmoko development
>   Openmoko community
>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>
> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the 
> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As 
> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly 
> if you wish me to feel free.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>
>> Brenda
>>
>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>
>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>
>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda 
>> Wang
>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of 
>> mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>
>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki 
>> more easy to use.
>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
>> Index page.
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Brenda
>>
>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>
>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM 
>>> Wiki.
>>>
>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>
>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never 
>>> know it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it 
>>> existed was Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>
>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on 
>>> the search engine, it sucks..
>>>
>>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
>>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find 
>>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>


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RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[steve]

Organizing the wiki is a monumental task.

My suggestion for the front page was three categories as opposed to your 5

1. Products.
2. Developer resources.
3. Community.

No system will be perfect and no organization of data will suit everyone
since we all carve
The world up in different ways.

That said, I would not object to the 5 categories you suggest.

The biggest issue is the massive amount of knowledge the community generates
about the devices.

This knowledge needs to be structured and disseminated.

Easier said than done.


 

-Original Message-
From: Stroller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:19 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Cc: steve; Brenda Wang
Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
outdated and incomplete documentation."

Hi there,

I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by editing
the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/
wiki/Distributions

But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the "Current
software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ NeoSoftwareStack ??

Perhaps these 5 categories:
   Introduction to Openmoko
   Openmoko Products
   Join Openmoko development
   Openmoko community
   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?

Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the "Introduction to
Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As a user I feel reluctant
to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"  
to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly if you
wish me to feel free.

Stroller.



On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:

> Brenda
>
>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>
>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>
>   A good start would be a better search engine
>
>
>
> Steve
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of 
> mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."
>
> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki 
> more easy to use.
> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
> Index page.
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Brenda
>
> Scott Derrick ??:
>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM 
>> Wiki.
>>
>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>
>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never 
>> know it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it 
>> existed was Software/distributions/distributions..
>>
>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on 
>> the search engine, it sucks..
>>
>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find 
>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>
>> Scott
>>


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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[matt joyce]

AVee wrote:
> On Thursday 17 July 2008 23:35, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>   
>> 2008/7/17 Brenda Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> 
>>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki more
>>> easy to use.
>>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this
>>> Index page.
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>   
>> I'm going to upset some people with this post, but I think it's
>> necessary. When I speak English, I make a conscious effort to be clear
>> and to use correct grammar. That is because when non-native English
>> speakers must communicate in English we often have trouble with the
>> sentence structure and lack of gender to identify subjects.
>>
>> I think that whoever maintains the wiki should have a very firm grasp
>> of English grammar. Not necessarily a native speaker (as they often
>> have bad grammar in my opinion, probably because they have no trouble
>> deciphering the meaning of the sentence anyway). I mean no offense,
>> Brenda, but English with Asian  grammar (I'm assuming Asian based on
>> the grammar style and your last name) is very difficult to read and
>> understand. I hope that my criticism is seen as constructive and not
>> personal, because I mean no offense yet I'd like to see the wiki
>> maintained by someone more qualified.
>> 
>
> I think you do raise a valid point. However, I also think it perfectly ok to 
> seperate the purely content related redaction from the linguistic issues. As 
> far as I can see there is absolutely no problem with the content itself. 
> Maybe someone should proofread it before it's posted. Or after it is posted, 
> it's a wiki after all, you really should just correct any errors you find.
>
> AVee
>
>   
We should encourage people to dump their knowledge, if it's accurate, 
it's valuable.Spelling and grammar are quick edits.
I would hate to think someone wants to contribute but doesn't because 
they feel their language skills aren't good enough.

Useful content will attract more eyes, which in turn will improve the 
likelihood of errors being spotted.

I for one, am a shocking typist and have appalling spelling but my 
grammar is reasonable.  Hoorah for little red lines under words.


Matt

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[AVee]

On Thursday 17 July 2008 23:35, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/7/17 Brenda Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
> > Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki more
> > easy to use.
> > And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this
> > Index page.
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
> >
> > Brenda
>
> I'm going to upset some people with this post, but I think it's
> necessary. When I speak English, I make a conscious effort to be clear
> and to use correct grammar. That is because when non-native English
> speakers must communicate in English we often have trouble with the
> sentence structure and lack of gender to identify subjects.
>
> I think that whoever maintains the wiki should have a very firm grasp
> of English grammar. Not necessarily a native speaker (as they often
> have bad grammar in my opinion, probably because they have no trouble
> deciphering the meaning of the sentence anyway). I mean no offense,
> Brenda, but English with Asian  grammar (I'm assuming Asian based on
> the grammar style and your last name) is very difficult to read and
> understand. I hope that my criticism is seen as constructive and not
> personal, because I mean no offense yet I'd like to see the wiki
> maintained by someone more qualified.

I think you do raise a valid point. However, I also think it perfectly ok to 
seperate the purely content related redaction from the linguistic issues. As 
far as I can see there is absolutely no problem with the content itself. 
Maybe someone should proofread it before it's posted. Or after it is posted, 
it's a wiki after all, you really should just correct any errors you find.

AVee

-- 
It isn't an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/7/17 Brenda Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki more
> easy to use.
> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this
> Index page.
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Brenda
>

I'm going to upset some people with this post, but I think it's
necessary. When I speak English, I make a conscious effort to be clear
and to use correct grammar. That is because when non-native English
speakers must communicate in English we often have trouble with the
sentence structure and lack of gender to identify subjects.

I think that whoever maintains the wiki should have a very firm grasp
of English grammar. Not necessarily a native speaker (as they often
have bad grammar in my opinion, probably because they have no trouble
deciphering the meaning of the sentence anyway). I mean no offense,
Brenda, but English with Asian  grammar (I'm assuming Asian based on
the grammar style and your last name) is very difficult to read and
understand. I hope that my criticism is seen as constructive and not
personal, because I mean no offense yet I'd like to see the wiki
maintained by someone more qualified.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Steven **]

I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
like your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or
just clean up your change however they like.  That's what makes the
wiki so powerful.

If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
down so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they
aren't worried "regular" users might edit it.

-Steven

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by
> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/
> wiki/Distributions
>
> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the
> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/
> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>
> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>   Introduction to Openmoko
>   Openmoko Products
>   Join Openmoko development
>   Openmoko community
>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>
> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the
> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As
> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly
> if you wish me to feel free.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>
>> Brenda
>>
>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>
>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>
>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of
>> mostly
>> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>
>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki
>> more easy
>> to use.
>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use
>> this Index
>> page.
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>
>> Brenda
>>
>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>
>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the
>>> OM Wiki.
>>>
>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>
>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never
>>> know
>>> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was
>>> Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>
>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and
>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on
>>> the
>>> search engine, it sucks..
>>>
>>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT
>>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find
>>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

Hi there,

I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by  
editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/ 
wiki/Distributions

But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the  
"Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
NeoSoftwareStack ??

Perhaps these 5 categories:
   Introduction to Openmoko
   Openmoko Products
   Join Openmoko development
   Openmoko community
   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?

Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the  
"Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As  
a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"  
to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly  
if you wish me to feel free.

Stroller.



On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:

> Brenda
>
>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>
>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>
>   A good start would be a better search engine
>
>
>
> Steve
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of  
> mostly
> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>
> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki  
> more easy
> to use.
> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use  
> this Index
> page.
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Brenda
>
> Scott Derrick ??:
>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the  
>> OM Wiki.
>>
>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>
>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never  
>> know
>> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was
>> Software/distributions/distributions..
>>
>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and
>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on  
>> the
>> search engine, it sucks..
>>
>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT
>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find
>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>
>> Scott
>>

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RE: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[steve]

Brenda

  The main page index does not address Scotts issue.

  I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.

  A good start would be a better search engine

   

Steve

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly
outdated and incomplete documentation."

Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki more easy
to use.
And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this Index
page.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

Brenda

Scott Derrick ??:
> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>   
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>
>>   
>> 
> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM Wiki.
>
> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>
> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the 
> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search 
> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never know 
> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was 
> Software/distributions/distributions..
>
> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on the 
> search engine, it sucks..
>
> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find 
> things instead of thwarting you.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>   

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Brenda Wang]

Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki more 
easy to use.
And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use this 
Index page.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

Brenda

Scott Derrick ??:
> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>   
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>
>>   
>> 
> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM Wiki.
>
> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>
> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the 
> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search 
> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never know 
> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was 
> Software/distributions/distributions..
>
> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on the 
> search engine, it sucks..
>
> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find things 
> instead of thwarting you.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>   

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[BrendaWang]

Make pages easy to find is always the first priority of wiki management.
I agree with you .
Openmoko wiki has thousands of pages, not easy to find everything.
So, we just made a Index page, every page will listed on it.
Then , I had made each wiki page of Openmoko had their own category 
since Feb, 2008.
These will help people easy to find the pages.

Brenda


Scott Derrick ??:
> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>   
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>
>>   
>> 
> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM Wiki.
>
> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>
> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the 
> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search 
> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never know 
> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was 
> Software/distributions/distributions..
>
> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on the 
> search engine, it sucks..
>
> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find things 
> instead of thwarting you.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>   


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Re: In the press

[David Samblas Martinez]

+ 1 to the clasification, but a visual discrimination about 
uptodate/outdated/work in progress in this pages will be very useful too.

--- El mié, 16/7/08, BrendaWang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

> De: BrendaWang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Asunto: Re: In the press
> Para: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
> Fecha: miércoles, 16 julio, 2008 10:25
> How about to use the Openmoko Index page.
> This page collect every topic of Wiki.
> And depend on the page's content, pages of wiki will
> classify into right 
> category.
> But now , Software part 
> (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Wiki_Official_Index_Page#Software)
> and Technical part , might be not clear enough( 
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Wiki_Official_Index_Page#Technical)
> , but in the future, I will make them become more easy to
> find.
> For example, just like this
> 
> Part I Choose your software develop tool
> 
> Development Environment
> 
> For developer
> 
> Part II Coding and compile
> 
> (OE, Toolchain.)
> Part III Running your program
> 
> (Emulation .)
> 
> Part IV Program sharing
> 
> Part V Install
> 
> Part VI Tools used in Openmoko
> 
> 
> Scott Derrick ??:
> > In my opinion , the Wiki sucks
> >
> > Very difficult to find any useful information.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Vinc Duran wrote:
> >   
> >> I think it's accurate.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Matt Joyce
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite
> an ok article.
> >>
> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
> >>
> >> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile
> of mostly outdated and
> >> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko
> wiki*..."
> >> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> >> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we
> identify old content
> >> and schedule it for updating?
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ___
> >> Openmoko community mailing list
> >> community@lists.openmoko.org
> <mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org>
> >>
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Openmoko community mailing list
> >> community@lists.openmoko.org
> >>
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>   
> >> 
> >
> >   
> 
> 
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Re: In the press

[BrendaWang]

How about to use the Openmoko Index page.
This page collect every topic of Wiki.
And depend on the page's content, pages of wiki will classify into right 
category.
But now , Software part 
(http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Wiki_Official_Index_Page#Software)
and Technical part , might be not clear enough( 
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Wiki_Official_Index_Page#Technical)
, but in the future, I will make them become more easy to find.
For example, just like this

Part I Choose your software develop tool

Development Environment

For developer

Part II Coding and compile

(OE, Toolchain.)
Part III Running your program

(Emulation .)

Part IV Program sharing

Part V Install

Part VI Tools used in Openmoko


Scott Derrick ??:
> In my opinion , the Wiki sucks
>
> Very difficult to find any useful information.
>
> Scott
>
> Vinc Duran wrote:
>   
>> I think it's accurate.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Matt Joyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite an ok article.
>> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
>>
>> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki*..."
>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content
>> and schedule it for updating?
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> community@lists.openmoko.org 
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> ___
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>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>   
>> 
>
>   


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Re: In the press

[BrendaWang]

About the public forum for discussion of the news, here is the page on 
wiki , might help.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Discussion_Forums

matt joyce ??:
> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>   
>>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
>>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
>>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
>>> and schedule it for updating?
>>> 
>>>   
>> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
>> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly  
>> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
>> productive to do so ..
>>
>> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
>> website come up that has the following:
>>
>> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
>> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,  
>> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
>>
>> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
>> found for OpenMoko
>>
>> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
>>
>> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
>> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
>> Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
>> don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it  
>> were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
>> 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..
>>
>> ;
>> --
>> Jay Vaughan
>>
>>
>>   
>> 
>
> I agree.
> Regardless though, an out of date wiki is not helpful.
>
> What approaches can we take to fix up the wiki
>
>
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Re: In the press

[BrendaWang]

Jay Vaughan ??:
>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
>> and schedule it for updating?
>> 
>
>
> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly  
> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
> productive to do so ..
>
> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
> website come up that has the following:
>
> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,  
> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
>
> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
> found for OpenMoko
>   
You can check here to get more about the free Repository
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CommunityRepository
> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
>
> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
> Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
> don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it  
> were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
> 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..
>
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Yorick Moko]

you can find the test reports here: http://people.openmoko.org/testing/software/

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know the devel list gets some official looking test results for each
> of the main apps posted about once a week.  I believe there was even a
> summary report in pdf form.  I think that testing was against the ASU.
>  So, at least you could get a pretty good status on that image.
>
> -Steven
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Stroller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 Jul 2008, at 19:45, John Reese wrote:
>>
>>> Stroller wrote:
 I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the
 wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not
 satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to
 know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about
 calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely
 open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right
 now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software
 will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,
 send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user
 worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It
 would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps
 telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best
 call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that
 answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because
 *surely* there must already be one??
>>>
>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>
>> That's a pretty good start - thanks for bringing it to my attention.
>>
>> ISTM that this answers half the question.
>>
>> What I'm seeing a lot of on IRC is:
>> "is anyone using the Freerunner as their main phone?"
>> "how reliable is it?"
>> "how featureful is it when the FR is used as a main phone?"
>>
>> The "telephony" line of the Distributions wiki page suggests that
>> OM2007.2, FSO, ASU & Qtopia all work equally well.
>> I don't think that's actually the case, is it?
>>
>> A thinking-about-buying-a-Freerunner FAQ would be great. The existing
>> FAQ is simply too long and cumbersome.
>>
>> The thing about telling a Linux enthusiast that "it's alpha quality"
>> is we're all gung ho to try anyway. We're all glad to fix stuff and
>> write bash scripts to the best of our ability, but without a decent
>> summary of the status it's kinda hard to know whether our abilities
>> meet the challenge.
>>
>> This is probably better suited to the new wiki list. We'll discuss it
>> further there when Steve sets it up.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
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>
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Re: In the press

[BrendaWang]

Dear Matt:
Openmoko Wiki just like WIKIPEDIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki 
Wiki) is a public place everyone can create page , and edit.
Actually , on Openmoko wiki, we have thousand pages. Some topic(page) is 
very popular , many people maintains the same page, so it updated soon.
And some page takes long time to complete, so difficult to tell if this 
page is complete or not?

Here is the rule I used ,
1.To use the wiki "History "function, find out this page's status.
2.Pages only have title, no content, more then half years, no one edit , 
I delete it.
Then , if anyone , want to create this topic, can create the new page , 
anytime.
3.Use Google Analytic , to tell which page is most popular , and mail 
Google analytic page view report to community mailing list.

Brenda

Openmoko Wiki has thousand pages,
Matt Joyce ??:
>
> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite an ok article.
> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
>
> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile of mostly outdated and 
> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki*..."
> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content and 
> schedule it for updating?
>
> Matt
>
>
> 
>
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Steven **]

I know the devel list gets some official looking test results for each
of the main apps posted about once a week.  I believe there was even a
summary report in pdf form.  I think that testing was against the ASU.
 So, at least you could get a pretty good status on that image.

-Steven

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Stroller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 15 Jul 2008, at 19:45, John Reese wrote:
>
>> Stroller wrote:
>>> I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the
>>> wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not
>>> satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to
>>> know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about
>>> calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely
>>> open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right
>>> now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software
>>> will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,
>>> send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user
>>> worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It
>>> would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps
>>> telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best
>>> call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that
>>> answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because
>>> *surely* there must already be one??
>>
>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>
> That's a pretty good start - thanks for bringing it to my attention.
>
> ISTM that this answers half the question.
>
> What I'm seeing a lot of on IRC is:
> "is anyone using the Freerunner as their main phone?"
> "how reliable is it?"
> "how featureful is it when the FR is used as a main phone?"
>
> The "telephony" line of the Distributions wiki page suggests that
> OM2007.2, FSO, ASU & Qtopia all work equally well.
> I don't think that's actually the case, is it?
>
> A thinking-about-buying-a-Freerunner FAQ would be great. The existing
> FAQ is simply too long and cumbersome.
>
> The thing about telling a Linux enthusiast that "it's alpha quality"
> is we're all gung ho to try anyway. We're all glad to fix stuff and
> write bash scripts to the best of our ability, but without a decent
> summary of the status it's kinda hard to know whether our abilities
> meet the challenge.
>
> This is probably better suited to the new wiki list. We'll discuss it
> further there when Steve sets it up.
>
> Stroller.
>
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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

On 15 Jul 2008, at 19:45, John Reese wrote:

> Stroller wrote:
>> I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the
>> wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not
>> satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to
>> know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about
>> calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely
>> open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right
>> now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software
>> will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,
>> send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user
>> worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It
>> would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps
>> telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best
>> call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that
>> answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because
>> *surely* there must already be one??
>
> Perhaps this is what you seek?
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions

That's a pretty good start - thanks for bringing it to my attention.

ISTM that this answers half the question.

What I'm seeing a lot of on IRC is:
 "is anyone using the Freerunner as their main phone?"
 "how reliable is it?"
 "how featureful is it when the FR is used as a main phone?"

The "telephony" line of the Distributions wiki page suggests that  
OM2007.2, FSO, ASU & Qtopia all work equally well.
I don't think that's actually the case, is it?

A thinking-about-buying-a-Freerunner FAQ would be great. The existing  
FAQ is simply too long and cumbersome.

The thing about telling a Linux enthusiast that "it's alpha quality"  
is we're all gung ho to try anyway. We're all glad to fix stuff and  
write bash scripts to the best of our ability, but without a decent  
summary of the status it's kinda hard to know whether our abilities  
meet the challenge.

This is probably better suited to the new wiki list. We'll discuss it  
further there when Steve sets it up.

Stroller.

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Re: In the press

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

Hello,

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Josh Monson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I will volunteer a few hours each week towards this.
>
> Editing, cleanup, moving content, updating content, organization,
> etc.
>
> I'm in.
>
> John Reese or Torfinn are you 2 also volunteering? That would make 3.
> Who else? We need a list of names so we can start firing this project

I would be happy to just be a contributor. :-)
But hey, I can spend a few hours every week on this task as well.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

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Re: In the press

[Jay Vaughan]

> The other thing to consider, as well, is what Brenda's role is with
> regards to the wiki. As I understood it, managing the wiki was her
> position within the company. Obviously a daunting task for a single
> person, so perhaps we need to make sure she's in the loop, or managing
> the team, etc.


Yeah - I would just like to add that I'm in no way calling for an end  
to the wiki, nor do I think the wiki is such a terrible disaster -  
more that I think there is definitely a need for a concise summary of  
OpenMoko news, on a daily or weekly basis, and that this could best be  
presented to the masses in the form of a news blog akin to slashdot or  
dsfanboy or such ..

I do *not* want to abandon the Wiki in favour of something else,  
somewhere else - just that there is really a lot of news going on with  
the OpenMoko scene, and it seems that daily updates would be warranted  
right now, what with all the interest in the OM situation.  Plus, it  
would help to keep people interested in whats going on, and it would  
also be *very* nice to have a platform for OM developers to use in  
pimping their wares.

Just to make it clear anyway .. I definitely do appreciate the values  
of the wiki, and I look forward to its continual improvement.  I hope  
we can get a news blog site up somewhere that makes sense too, though.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: In the press

[Jay Vaughan]

I'll help out too .. so count me in .. soon as I get my Freerunner,  
which I'm still going to get even though the GPS problems are a pain.

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: In the press

[ian douglas]

I'll have time to help out as well starting next week. I wonder if we
could get the OM techs to create another mailing list started like
[EMAIL PROTECTED] so we can communicate to one another
about organization plans, etc.

The other thing to consider, as well, is what Brenda's role is with
regards to the wiki. As I understood it, managing the wiki was her
position within the company. Obviously a daunting task for a single
person, so perhaps we need to make sure she's in the loop, or managing
the team, etc.

Like Josh, I can give a few hours per week to make the wiki a less
confusing place to be.

-id


Josh Monson wrote:
> I will volunteer a few hours each week towards this. 
> 
> Editing, cleanup, moving content, updating content, organization,
> etc.
> 
> I'm in. 
> 
> John Reese or Torfinn are you 2 also volunteering? That would make 3.
> Who else? We need a list of names so we can start firing this project
> up. 
> 
> I bought this phone for the specific purpose of what is happening right
> now with this list, and where it will take the phone :)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> I use trillian but here is my info, feel free to add me "IF" you are
> interested in this part of the project :)
> 
> westcoastmonson  :hotmail:
> westcoastmonson  :yahoo:
> westcoastmonson1 :aim:
> 422809032:irc:
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Reese
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:15 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: In the press
> 
> Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Well thats definitely a very nice proposal, but I would like to hold
>>> off a bit on recreating a whole new wiki .. what I had in mind was
>>> more of a blog/feed style site, not necessarily another wiki setup ..
>> As have been said before in this thread: what we (the Openmoko
>> community) need is a wiki editors group.
>> Any volunteers?
>> The wiki editors group would help each other (and other contributors)
>> to improve the wiki, by creating information management, writing and
>> style guidelines, guiding and teaching wiki contributors, and editing
>> the wiki itself.
>>
>> Initially, the group could consist of the people most active in
>> editing the wiki already. Further recruitment could be based on
>> quality and quantity of contributions to the wiki.
>>
>> Of course the Wiki editors would have a "hall of fame" page on the
>> wiki that would describe the tasks that the group do, list the names
>> of the editors (and perhaps what period they acted in that role?) and
>> so on
>>
>> Any volunteers now?
>>
>> Anyway, just an idea.
> 
> This sounds like a good idea.  I'm certainly willing to put my time in 
> to clean things up.  I've been doing some of it already when I come 
> across things that either aren't clear or aren't linked well.
> 
> If we could gather a team of four, maybe five/six, community members, 
> and devise/discuss a plan to organize and clean up the wiki, and then 
> get everyone in the mailing lists, IRC, etc to promote and encourage use
> 
> and modifying the wiki, I think it would go a very long way.
> 

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RE: In the press

[Josh Monson]

I will volunteer a few hours each week towards this. 

Editing, cleanup, moving content, updating content, organization,
etc.

I'm in. 

John Reese or Torfinn are you 2 also volunteering? That would make 3.
Who else? We need a list of names so we can start firing this project
up. 

I bought this phone for the specific purpose of what is happening right
now with this list, and where it will take the phone :)

Cheers


I use trillian but here is my info, feel free to add me "IF" you are
interested in this part of the project :)

westcoastmonson  :hotmail:
westcoastmonson  :yahoo:
westcoastmonson1 :aim:
422809032:irc:

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Reese
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:15 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: In the press

Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Well thats definitely a very nice proposal, but I would like to hold
>> off a bit on recreating a whole new wiki .. what I had in mind was
>> more of a blog/feed style site, not necessarily another wiki setup ..
> 
> As have been said before in this thread: what we (the Openmoko
> community) need is a wiki editors group.
> Any volunteers?
> The wiki editors group would help each other (and other contributors)
> to improve the wiki, by creating information management, writing and
> style guidelines, guiding and teaching wiki contributors, and editing
> the wiki itself.
> 
> Initially, the group could consist of the people most active in
> editing the wiki already. Further recruitment could be based on
> quality and quantity of contributions to the wiki.
> 
> Of course the Wiki editors would have a "hall of fame" page on the
> wiki that would describe the tasks that the group do, list the names
> of the editors (and perhaps what period they acted in that role?) and
> so on
> 
> Any volunteers now?
> 
> Anyway, just an idea.

This sounds like a good idea.  I'm certainly willing to put my time in 
to clean things up.  I've been doing some of it already when I come 
across things that either aren't clear or aren't linked well.

If we could gather a team of four, maybe five/six, community members, 
and devise/discuss a plan to organize and clean up the wiki, and then 
get everyone in the mailing lists, IRC, etc to promote and encourage use

and modifying the wiki, I think it would go a very long way.

-- 
John Reese
LeetCode.net

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Re: In the press

[John Reese]

Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Well thats definitely a very nice proposal, but I would like to hold
>> off a bit on recreating a whole new wiki .. what I had in mind was
>> more of a blog/feed style site, not necessarily another wiki setup ..
> 
> As have been said before in this thread: what we (the Openmoko
> community) need is a wiki editors group.
> Any volunteers?
> The wiki editors group would help each other (and other contributors)
> to improve the wiki, by creating information management, writing and
> style guidelines, guiding and teaching wiki contributors, and editing
> the wiki itself.
> 
> Initially, the group could consist of the people most active in
> editing the wiki already. Further recruitment could be based on
> quality and quantity of contributions to the wiki.
> 
> Of course the Wiki editors would have a "hall of fame" page on the
> wiki that would describe the tasks that the group do, list the names
> of the editors (and perhaps what period they acted in that role?) and
> so on
> 
> Any volunteers now?
> 
> Anyway, just an idea.

This sounds like a good idea.  I'm certainly willing to put my time in 
to clean things up.  I've been doing some of it already when I come 
across things that either aren't clear or aren't linked well.

If we could gather a team of four, maybe five/six, community members, 
and devise/discuss a plan to organize and clean up the wiki, and then 
get everyone in the mailing lists, IRC, etc to promote and encourage use 
and modifying the wiki, I think it would go a very long way.

-- 
John Reese
LeetCode.net

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Re: In the press

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

Hello,

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well thats definitely a very nice proposal, but I would like to hold
> off a bit on recreating a whole new wiki .. what I had in mind was
> more of a blog/feed style site, not necessarily another wiki setup ..

As have been said before in this thread: what we (the Openmoko
community) need is a wiki editors group.
Any volunteers?
The wiki editors group would help each other (and other contributors)
to improve the wiki, by creating information management, writing and
style guidelines, guiding and teaching wiki contributors, and editing
the wiki itself.

Initially, the group could consist of the people most active in
editing the wiki already. Further recruitment could be based on
quality and quantity of contributions to the wiki.

Of course the Wiki editors would have a "hall of fame" page on the
wiki that would describe the tasks that the group do, list the names
of the editors (and perhaps what period they acted in that role?) and
so on

Any volunteers now?

Anyway, just an idea.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[John Reese]

Scott Derrick wrote:
> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the 
> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search 
> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never know 
> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was 
> Software/distributions/distributions..

It is linked from Latest_Images which itself is linked from the Getting 
Started pages.

-- 
John Reese
LeetCode.net

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Re: In the press

[Jay Vaughan]

> If people think it's a good idea then I will set up a website for it  
> and
> register it. Perhaps something like mokofanbox.org or whatever. I  
> don't
> really care. I can register it and I will make it available to  
> whomever
> can administer it. Jay seems to be willing.

Well thats definitely a very nice proposal, but I would like to hold  
off a bit on recreating a whole new wiki .. what I had in mind was  
more of a blog/feed style site, not necessarily another wiki setup ..


;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Scott Derrick]

Perhaps this is what you seek?
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>
>   
This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the OM Wiki.

Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.

But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the 
FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search 
for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never know 
it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was 
Software/distributions/distributions..

There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and 
layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on the 
search engine, it sucks..

I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT 
Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find things 
instead of thwarting you.

Scott









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Re: In the press

[Paul Boddie]

Hugo Mills wrote:
>The quality of a wiki has little to do with the Wiki engine on
> which it runs. It is far more to do with having a highly proactive
> group of wiki editors, who between them read every single change made
> to the wiki, and can make suitable cross-references, indexes,
> corrections, updates and so forth to ensure that the content is easy
> to find, read and use.

Agreed. Also, people sometimes believe mistakenly that "more is better", as 
in "if they don't understand this, here's another page that might explain 
it" - this just makes everything worse and gives the impression of a "stream 
of consciousness" form of information delivery, that if one somehow soaks up 
enough, one might understand something.

Consider the following page:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Xephyr

I don't have any problems with the introduction, but it's rarely the most 
efficient course of action to list some commands in prose unless there's some 
kind of educational value involved in doing so: it's easy to accidentally 
skip commands (either as the author or as the reader) and then find that the 
desired effect is not obtained. There's some discussion included in the page 
which should either be included or discarded, depending on whether the 
comments are valid or helpful, and at the end there's probably the most 
confusing part of all: a script which is supposed to automate the process 
(good), but which shouldn't be used because it doesn't work (bad).

I'm not even sure whether anyone actually runs a sandbox with Xephyr as the 
display to emulate the FreeRunner environment, although I know it would be 
possible as I've done stuff with User Mode Linux and, in my experience, you'd 
just need the appropriate software in a suitable form for use on the host 
architecture. Perhaps people just use QEMU or a real device, and perhaps the 
page referenced doesn't describe something that anyone does - if so, either 
it needs removing, or someone needs to step up to defend and to document the 
concept properly.

Wiki editors and administrators are important, but the people with technical 
knowledge have their own responsibilities, not limited to correcting stuff 
that they've contributed and auditing any subsequent edits.

Paul

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Re: In the press

[Ken Restivo]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 07:17:54PM +0100, Hugo Mills wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 05:27:31PM +, Curtis Vaughan wrote:
> > Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use 
> > MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be used as 
> > an FR community wiki. 
> 
>The quality of a wiki has little to do with the Wiki engine on
> which it runs. It is far more to do with having a highly proactive
> group of wiki editors, who between them read every single change made
> to the wiki, and can make suitable cross-references, indexes,
> corrections, updates and so forth to ensure that the content is easy
> to find, read and use.
> 
>If you don't have such a group of people (and I'm not talking about
> OpenMoko employees here), it doesn't matter what wiki engine you use,
> or what website you have, your wiki won't go anywhere useful.
> 

Exactly. There is a lot of good information there, it just needs to be 
organized, and the bad (old, outdated, confusing) information has to be pruned 
out.

I think all it needs is for a few people to jump in and go, "Ack, this is 
awful, I'm going to clean it up". Every day. Several times a day, for a few 
minutes each time. I'd be glad to start by doing a "1973-ectomy": moving all 
references to an obsolete, no-longer-manufactured prototype somewhere else in 
the Wiki.

Another clever thing that OpenWRT guys do is they wrote a little bot so that a 
notification of any forum post or question gets inserted into the #openwrt IRC 
channel. Then they jump in immediately and answer it (and it draws other 
users/developers who might idling in the channel to go read/answer it too). The 
annoyance of getting blasted immediately (via IRC) provides an incentive for 
eliminating FAQ's by cleaning up the docs (and the software).

Something like that might be useful for Wiki entries too, or even mailing list 
posts. 

-ken

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

Hello,

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Stroller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Right now I'm happy to edit Wikipedia or OpenStreetMaps, but not the
> Openmoko wiki and I'm not sure why that is. I've seen something

FWIW, what I do if I don't feel comfortable enough editing a page on
the (Openmoko) wiki - I simply add my comments to the discussion for
that page. Then someone else can read it and do the edit of the actual
page, if they feel that my comments / suggestions are good.
Of course, this only works if somebody else actually reads the
discussions for the pages...

HTH
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[John Reese]

Stroller wrote:
> I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the  
> wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not  
> satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to  
> know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about  
> calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely  
> open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right  
> now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software  
> will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,  
> send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user  
> worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It  
> would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps  
> telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best  
> call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that  
> answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because  
> *surely* there must already be one??

Perhaps this is what you seek?
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions

-- 
John Reese
LeetCode.net

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

On 15 Jul 2008, at 18:27, Curtis Vaughan wrote:

> Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use
> MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be  
> used as
> an FR community wiki.

I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is with the  
INFORMATION, not the platform it's contained on.

Ken mentions that the OpenWRT Wiki (which I too have found useful) is  
maintained by the developers.

And I think there's a lot of truth in the statement that people are  
reluctant to edit the Openmoko wiki at present.

Do Openmoko's developers spend any time editing the wiki? I know  
they've got loads of other things to do, but maybe just a few minutes  
dedicated each day would provide some direction. One great thing  
about wikis is that you can make a quick edit to them "this doesn't  
work for me, I had to do X" and then someone else can clean up later  
on, "there are two methods of undertaking this task, depending upon  
your hardware version; GTA02 requires X but earlier models require Y".

Someone else suggested that "clean up" tags might be added to  
articles. I think "citation needed", "is this true?" and "GTA01 /  
GTA02 differences?" tags might  be useful, too. As I understand it if  
tags or templates or whatever are used for these then they can be  
summarised by looking at a single "pages which use this template"  
page. This allows contributors to easily see what is in need of  
editing or correction.

Right now I'm happy to edit Wikipedia or OpenStreetMaps, but not the  
Openmoko wiki and I'm not sure why that is. I've seen something  
similar with the Gentoo Wiki, where people seem generally reluctant  
to edit stuff they don't "own". Articles are great and comprehensive  
when someone takes the initiative to start them, but over time they  
become outdated and - after the original author has lost interest -  
no-one takes the time to put much effort into them.

I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the  
wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not  
satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to  
know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about  
calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely  
open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right  
now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software  
will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,  
send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user  
worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It  
would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps  
telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best  
call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that  
answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because  
*surely* there must already be one??

Stroller.


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Re: In the press

[Curtis Vaughan]

I agree! And that was my first point. There are a number of people who 
seem to feel that the OM wiki is not responding well. And as I recall one 
person from OM stated that the problem is that they are a small company. 
So I guess they are trying to say, we feel your pain, we want to help, 
but we're kind of stretch out. So, I think it would be great if OM could 
maybe let some of us (not me!) help in developing the Community Portal. 
Maybe there is a way, but I don't see it.

Now if I go to the CommunityPortal I see under manuals:
"The wiki is a mess, somebody should suggest a structure easier to 
navigate."
Or under Software ideas:
"a really mixed up list of software and hardware ideas"

Rather confusing and not very helpful.
Anyhow, I think it's VERY important that there be a site that is rather 
easy to access and use, especially for beginners. 


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Re: In the press

[Hugo Mills]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 05:27:31PM +, Curtis Vaughan wrote:
> Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use 
> MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be used as 
> an FR community wiki. 

   The quality of a wiki has little to do with the Wiki engine on
which it runs. It is far more to do with having a highly proactive
group of wiki editors, who between them read every single change made
to the wiki, and can make suitable cross-references, indexes,
corrections, updates and so forth to ensure that the content is easy
to find, read and use.

   If you don't have such a group of people (and I'm not talking about
OpenMoko employees here), it doesn't matter what wiki engine you use,
or what website you have, your wiki won't go anywhere useful.

   Hugo.

-- 
=== Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk 
===
  PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
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Re: ***SPAM*** Re: In the press

[Scott Derrick]

I don't think its the wiki software that is the problem.

Its the ad-hoc management method of everybody editing and no one doing 
QA to insure old stuff is thrown out or clearly marked,  consistent 
format,   new  pages in the right place,  appropriate links to and from 
the document, etc

There has to be some kind of control to enforce a standard,  I'm a 
libertarian at heart but the free-for-all method used now falls apart 
when you have multiple projects(1973, FreeRunner, etc) and hundreds of 
contributers..

I think OpenMoko stands to gain the most from teh effort and should step 
up to the plate to provide a WikiBoss that can provide the standard, 
organize volunteers to police  "their" areas of expertise. 

Unless this of some other kind of oversight is done any new wiki will 
degenerate into the state of the current wiki in short order.

Scott

Curtis Vaughan wrote:
> Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use 
> MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be used as 
> an FR community wiki. 
> If people think it's a good idea then I will set up a website for it and 
> register it. Perhaps something like mokofanbox.org or whatever. I don't 
> really care. I can register it and I will make it available to whomever 
> can administer it. Jay seems to be willing. 
> Anyhow, if that's what will help us out then just give me the green light 
> and I'll do that much. If it works out - Great!
>
> Curtis
>
>
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>   

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Re: In the press

[arne anka]

> How will this differ from
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko:Community_Portal
>
> And why would we want multiple wiki's with the same info?

my thoughts exactly

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RE: In the press

[Josh Monson]

How will this differ from
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko:Community_Portal

And why would we want multiple wiki's with the same info?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 10:52 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: In the press

ideas for domain names:

freerunner.info
freeyourphone.com/.org
moko.mobi -- a mobi version of the site, browsable on mobile devices
like the Freerunner would be awesome, typically just a skin on whichever
cms/wiki engine you choose


Curtis Vaughan wrote:
> Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use

> MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be used
as 
> an FR community wiki. 
> If people think it's a good idea then I will set up a website for it
and 
> register it. Perhaps something like mokofanbox.org or whatever. I
don't 
> really care. I can register it and I will make it available to
whomever 
> can administer it. Jay seems to be willing. 
> Anyhow, if that's what will help us out then just give me the green
light 
> and I'll do that much. If it works out - Great!
> 
> Curtis
> 
> 
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

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Re: In the press

[ian douglas]

ideas for domain names:

freerunner.info
freeyourphone.com/.org
moko.mobi -- a mobi version of the site, browsable on mobile devices
like the Freerunner would be awesome, typically just a skin on whichever
cms/wiki engine you choose


Curtis Vaughan wrote:
> Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use 
> MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be used as 
> an FR community wiki. 
> If people think it's a good idea then I will set up a website for it and 
> register it. Perhaps something like mokofanbox.org or whatever. I don't 
> really care. I can register it and I will make it available to whomever 
> can administer it. Jay seems to be willing. 
> Anyhow, if that's what will help us out then just give me the green light 
> and I'll do that much. If it works out - Great!
> 
> Curtis
> 
> 
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

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Re: In the press

[Curtis Vaughan]

Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use 
MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be used as 
an FR community wiki. 
If people think it's a good idea then I will set up a website for it and 
register it. Perhaps something like mokofanbox.org or whatever. I don't 
really care. I can register it and I will make it available to whomever 
can administer it. Jay seems to be willing. 
Anyhow, if that's what will help us out then just give me the green light 
and I'll do that much. If it works out - Great!

Curtis


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RE: In the press

[Crane, Matthew]

I think it's fair to say most open source projects evolve this way.  The
wiki isn't that bad, and if you want to develop starting from any sort
of open and active code base you have to expect a learning curve and
documentation that's not going to be exactly up to date. 

Keep in mind too that following the sort of massive changes prior to a
release it takes a while for the documentation to catch up.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 9:15 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: In the press


Man I have to agree.  I'm just jumping on to the OM bandwagon with the 
purchase of two freerunners but have reservations about it now.

Looking through the Wiki is a pain and a chore to find useful data. Yes 
there are gems in there but they are buried under tons of old and 
inaccurate data.

Some people having very basic problems, like making a phone call, or 
playing music, charging the phone, right out of the box is really 
inexcusable.  And for many this list is the only source of "possible" 
solutions! 

If the OM is going to survive and grow into a viable platform something 
has to change.  Somebody is going to have to take the reins on 
documentation. Information is the key to its success and right now its 
in shambles. I'm not trying to point a finger or blame anybody.  I think

the scope has grown beyond the ad-hoc means used up to now, especially 
since we have a new phone added to the mix. There has to be some 
distinction between the 1973 and the FR because it appears they are not 
completely compatible.

I think OM is going to have to step up to the plate and dedicate some 
resources to at least organizing/overseeing and enforcing a standard to

the documentation  of  the project so there is coherence, timeliness 
and  to reduce the  outdated and  inaccurate information.

Scott

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>   
>>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
>>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
>>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
>>> and schedule it for updating?
>>>   
>> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
>> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly

>> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
>> productive to do so ..
>>
>> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
>> website come up that has the following:
>>
>> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
>> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,

>> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
>>
>> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
>> found for OpenMoko
>>
>> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
>>
>> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
>> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
>> Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
>> don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if
it  
>> were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
>> 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..
>> 
>
> Jay
>
> These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a 
> small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products. 
> Community help to make these more approachable is something that would

> make us all very grateful.
>
> Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko)
could 
> do to help get this all started.
>
>-Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
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>
>   

-- 

-
"Just because I sound like an idiot doesn't mean I agree with the
president."from an ad on Air America Radio


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Re: In the press

[Scott Derrick]

Man I have to agree.  I'm just jumping on to the OM bandwagon with the 
purchase of two freerunners but have reservations about it now.

Looking through the Wiki is a pain and a chore to find useful data. Yes 
there are gems in there but they are buried under tons of old and 
inaccurate data.

Some people having very basic problems, like making a phone call, or 
playing music, charging the phone, right out of the box is really 
inexcusable.  And for many this list is the only source of "possible" 
solutions! 

If the OM is going to survive and grow into a viable platform something 
has to change.  Somebody is going to have to take the reins on 
documentation. Information is the key to its success and right now its 
in shambles. I'm not trying to point a finger or blame anybody.  I think 
the scope has grown beyond the ad-hoc means used up to now, especially 
since we have a new phone added to the mix. There has to be some 
distinction between the 1973 and the FR because it appears they are not 
completely compatible.

I think OM is going to have to step up to the plate and dedicate some 
resources to at least organizing/overseeing and enforcing a standard to  
the documentation  of  the project so there is coherence, timeliness 
and  to reduce the  outdated and  inaccurate information.

Scott

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>   
>>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
>>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
>>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
>>> and schedule it for updating?
>>>   
>> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
>> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly  
>> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
>> productive to do so ..
>>
>> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
>> website come up that has the following:
>>
>> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
>> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,  
>> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
>>
>> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
>> found for OpenMoko
>>
>> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
>>
>> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
>> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
>> Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
>> don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it  
>> were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
>> 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..
>> 
>
> Jay
>
> These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a 
> small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products. 
> Community help to make these more approachable is something that would 
> make us all very grateful.
>
> Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko) could 
> do to help get this all started.
>
>-Sean
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>   

-- 

-
"Just because I sound like an idiot doesn't mean I agree with the 
president."from an ad on Air America Radio


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Re: In the press

[Ken Restivo]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:06:07PM +0200, Jay Vaughan wrote:
> > These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a
> > small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products.
> > Community help to make these more approachable is something that would
> > make us all very grateful.
> >
> 
> 
> Well I'm certainly trying to help in any way I can, while I wait  
> patiently for my first Freerunner to arrive so I can get on with  
> developing some nice apps for it, too ..
> 
> > Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko)  
> > could
> > do to help get this all started.
> 
> 
> I think the main thing is we should set up a site thats just fanboix  
> oriented.. and I mean that in a positive way, not derogatorily.   
> Basically what I'd like to see is something similar to DSFanboy  
> (dsfanboy.com), which exists for Nintendo DS owners to check  
> regularly .. if we had such a site set up that could be easily  
> contributed to with stories and articles and whatnot, it would help a  
> great deal.
> 
> I will continue to glean info from the mailing lists, and in a little  
> while will consider setting up mokofanboix.org, and maybe take it from  
> there .. unless someone else is more qualified to do so?
> 

This kind of "fork" in the documentation and community is pretty typical in the 
case of a commercial product that isn't necessarily friendly to hackers. So 
there's an unofficial fan page where enthusiasts can discuss 
undocumented/unsupported features, odd uses, hacks, cracks, complain about the 
manufacturer, diss the users of competing products, and the like. The fan site 
is owned by the user commmunity and is somewhat isolated from being censored or 
easily closed down by the manufacturer.

In the Free/Open software world, it's usually very different. It's more typical 
for that user community to be an integral part of the project itself. There is 
a much blurrier line between users and developers, and that's pretty much the 
whole point.

Again, I'll point to the OpenWRT Wiki (and forums, and IRC channel, bug 
tracker, and mailing list) as a great example of what I consider to be 
excellent documentation and support for a free project.

-ken

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Re: In the press

[Shawn Thompson]

Actually I can speak from experience that Matt has hit it on the head. I was
having problems with the moko makefile while trying to test QEMU until I can
afford to get the actual phone. I couldn't figure out why it was building
with a broken GUI, luckily I knew about the mailing lists and someone was
able to point me in the right direction.

-Shawn

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:28 AM, Matt Joyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> My take on the problem is that if a new user searches for information, and
> finds something promising but it turns out to be wrong, or out of date, they
> will probably not update it.
> Once they find the information they may not remember (or be inclined) to go
> back and update it.
>
> What new user is going to start off by editing an article about stuff they
> don't know?
>
> Perhaps one method of identifying information, it to have a simple way to
> flagging an article as 'needs checking'.
> Wiki moderators and the community at large could focus their efforts there.
>
> MJ
>
>
>
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>
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Re: In the press

[Jay Vaughan]

>> I have the resources to set up such a site, but I definitely do not  
>> want
> to do anything counter-productive. I would really like to see OM do  
> what
> they can as I prefer a "one-stop solution" as opposed to having to  
> visit
> numerous sites to find solutions.
>


I think the main goal would be to have a single site we could all  
check that has the latest and greatest news condensed for those of us  
who are not going to be able to wade through 100 mail messages a day  
to find stuff out.  Also, we need a place to announce new applications  
to the world, too.  I'm really hoping such a site would be useful for  
people who want to announce their new apps development.

> As an example, I have a Nokia N770, and I found the maemo.org site  
> rather
> well organized for finding solutions, as well as third-party apps. I'm
> only mentioning it as a possible guide.


Yeah, so lets maybe consider setting this up then in the near future.   
I'll be able to do more on this when I get my Freerunner and catch up  
with the rest of you guys on where things stand ..

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: In the press

[Jay Vaughan]

> These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a
> small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products.
> Community help to make these more approachable is something that would
> make us all very grateful.
>


Well I'm certainly trying to help in any way I can, while I wait  
patiently for my first Freerunner to arrive so I can get on with  
developing some nice apps for it, too ..

> Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko)  
> could
> do to help get this all started.


I think the main thing is we should set up a site thats just fanboix  
oriented.. and I mean that in a positive way, not derogatorily.   
Basically what I'd like to see is something similar to DSFanboy  
(dsfanboy.com), which exists for Nintendo DS owners to check  
regularly .. if we had such a site set up that could be easily  
contributed to with stories and articles and whatnot, it would help a  
great deal.

I will continue to glean info from the mailing lists, and in a little  
while will consider setting up mokofanboix.org, and maybe take it from  
there .. unless someone else is more qualified to do so?


;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: In the press

[Matt Joyce]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jay Vaughan wrote:
> >> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
> >> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
> >> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> >> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content
> >> and schedule it for updating?
> >
> >
> > I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to
> > OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly
> > for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its
> > productive to do so ..
> >
> > What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"
> > website come up that has the following:
> >
> > - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the
> > openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,
> > of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
> >
> > - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'
> > found for OpenMoko
> >
> > - Public forum for discussion of the news.
> >
> > This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like
> > planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the
> > Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I
> > don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it
> > were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an
> > 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..
>
> Jay
>
> These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a
> small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products.
> Community help to make these more approachable is something that would
> make us all very grateful.
>
> Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko) could
> do to help get this all started.
>
>   -Sean
>
>
My take on the problem is that if a new user searches for information, and
finds something promising but it turns out to be wrong, or out of date, they
will probably not update it.
Once they find the information they may not remember (or be inclined) to go
back and update it.

What new user is going to start off by editing an article about stuff they
don't know?

Perhaps one method of identifying information, it to have a simple way to
flagging an article as 'needs checking'.
Wiki moderators and the community at large could focus their efforts there.

MJ
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Re: In the press

[ian douglas]

Vinc Duran wrote:
> As a /user/ I'd really like it if there were always an easy to find 
> place for what is known to work.

There's a LOT of info on the wiki but it can be a little daunting to 
find the newest "this is what works" kind of information. Is there any 
way to move the "last edited" marker at the bottom of each wiki page to 
the *top* of the page where it's more apparent?

Searching the wiki for "Freerunner GPS" returns 159 different articles 
spanning multiple languages, etc. Being able to sort the results by edit 
date would sure be handy.

-id


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Re: In the press

[Ken Restivo]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:47:40PM -0600, Vinc Duran wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Curtis Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:47:51 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
> >
> > > Jay Vaughan wrote:
> > >>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
> > >>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..." Is this an accurate
> > >>> evaluation of the wiki ? If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we
> > >>> identify old content and schedule it for updating?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to
> > >> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly
> > >> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its
> > >> productive to do so ..
> > >>
> > >> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org" website
> > >> come up that has the following:
> > >>
> > >> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the
> > >> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,
> > >> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
> > >>
> > >> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'
> > >> found for OpenMoko
> > >>
> > >> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
> > >>
> > >> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like
> > >> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the Scaredycat
> > >> repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I don't think
> > >> any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it were all put
> > >> under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an 'openmoko pop culture'
> > >> site than what we've got right now ..
> > >
> > > Jay
> > >
> > > These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a
> > > small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products.
> > > Community help to make these more approachable is something that would
> > > make us all very grateful.
> > >
> > > Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko) could
> > > do to help get this all started.
> > >
> > >-Sean
> >
> > At this point it seems to me there are 2 approaches:
> > 1) The preferred would be to develop the wiki such that members can "set
> > it up" themselves.
> > 2) Have a 3rd-party site per Jay's suggestion that accomplishes that.
> >
> > I have the resources to set up such a site, but I definitely do not want
> > to do anything counter-productive. I would really like to see OM do what
> > they can as I prefer a "one-stop solution" as opposed to having to visit
> > numerous sites to find solutions.
> >
> > As an example, I have a Nokia N770, and I found the maemo.org site rather
> > well organized for finding solutions, as well as third-party apps. I'm
> > only mentioning it as a possible guide.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Curtis Vaughan (no relation to Jay - I don't think)
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> 
> As a *user* I'd really like it if there were always an easy to find place
> for what is known to work. It would be better for my piece of mind if it
> were something OM.
> V


By far, the best Wiki I've *ever* seen-- indeed the best documentation I've 
ever seen for *any* Open Source project, ever (I'm not kidding, it's really 
that good)--, is the OpenWRT Wiki.

It's amazing. Everything is right there. It's cleaned and scrubbed and pruned 
constantly. No cruft, no confusing outdated information, no ambiguity about 
what works or what doesn't or got decided or didn't. The instructions are dead 
simple and unambiguous and geared towards the end user. There are recipes there 
for just about any weird thing you'd possibly want to try with the product. 
There are detailed tables with every bit of hardware compatibility information 
you'd ever want.

It is a work of art. And it's maintained by the developers, mostly, but with a 
very good sense of what a new user would need to know. It does reflect on the 
product itself too, which is also very well organized, slick, reliable, and 
clean. I've had Linksys boxes running here for years on OpenWRT. It was easy to 
install and configure and it just works.

I can't speak highly enough of the project or the documentation. If the 
OpenMoko Wiki could be like that, it'd be real quiet in userland, because 
instead of pelting you with questions, they'd be busy using and enjoying and 
hacking their phones.

-ken

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Re: In the press

[Vinc Duran]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Curtis Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:47:51 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
>
> > Jay Vaughan wrote:
> >>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
> >>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..." Is this an accurate
> >>> evaluation of the wiki ? If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we
> >>> identify old content and schedule it for updating?
> >>
> >>
> >> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to
> >> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly
> >> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its
> >> productive to do so ..
> >>
> >> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org" website
> >> come up that has the following:
> >>
> >> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the
> >> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,
> >> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
> >>
> >> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'
> >> found for OpenMoko
> >>
> >> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
> >>
> >> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like
> >> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the Scaredycat
> >> repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I don't think
> >> any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it were all put
> >> under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an 'openmoko pop culture'
> >> site than what we've got right now ..
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a
> > small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products.
> > Community help to make these more approachable is something that would
> > make us all very grateful.
> >
> > Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko) could
> > do to help get this all started.
> >
> >-Sean
>
> At this point it seems to me there are 2 approaches:
> 1) The preferred would be to develop the wiki such that members can "set
> it up" themselves.
> 2) Have a 3rd-party site per Jay's suggestion that accomplishes that.
>
> I have the resources to set up such a site, but I definitely do not want
> to do anything counter-productive. I would really like to see OM do what
> they can as I prefer a "one-stop solution" as opposed to having to visit
> numerous sites to find solutions.
>
> As an example, I have a Nokia N770, and I found the maemo.org site rather
> well organized for finding solutions, as well as third-party apps. I'm
> only mentioning it as a possible guide.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Curtis Vaughan (no relation to Jay - I don't think)
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>

As a *user* I'd really like it if there were always an easy to find place
for what is known to work. It would be better for my piece of mind if it
were something OM.
V
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Re: In the press

[Curtis Vaughan]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:47:51 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:

> Jay Vaughan wrote:
>>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
>>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..." Is this an accurate
>>> evaluation of the wiki ? If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we
>>> identify old content and schedule it for updating?
>> 
>> 
>> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to
>> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly
>> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its
>> productive to do so ..
>> 
>> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org" website
>> come up that has the following:
>> 
>> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the
>> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,
>> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
>> 
>> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'
>> found for OpenMoko
>> 
>> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
>> 
>> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like
>> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the Scaredycat
>> repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I don't think
>> any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it were all put
>> under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an 'openmoko pop culture'
>> site than what we've got right now ..
> 
> Jay
> 
> These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a
> small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products.
> Community help to make these more approachable is something that would
> make us all very grateful.
> 
> Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko) could
> do to help get this all started.
> 
>-Sean

At this point it seems to me there are 2 approaches:
1) The preferred would be to develop the wiki such that members can "set 
it up" themselves. 
2) Have a 3rd-party site per Jay's suggestion that accomplishes that.

I have the resources to set up such a site, but I definitely do not want 
to do anything counter-productive. I would really like to see OM do what 
they can as I prefer a "one-stop solution" as opposed to having to visit 
numerous sites to find solutions. 

As an example, I have a Nokia N770, and I found the maemo.org site rather 
well organized for finding solutions, as well as third-party apps. I'm 
only mentioning it as a possible guide.

Respectfully,

Curtis Vaughan (no relation to Jay - I don't think)


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Re: In the press

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

Jay Vaughan wrote:
>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
>> and schedule it for updating?
> 
> 
> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly  
> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
> productive to do so ..
> 
> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
> website come up that has the following:
> 
> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,  
> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
> 
> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
> found for OpenMoko
> 
> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
> 
> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
> Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
> don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it  
> were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
> 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..

Jay

These are all great ideas and would be very helpful for us. We are a 
small company. And really try to focus all we can on our products. 
Community help to make these more approachable is something that would 
make us all very grateful.

Let me know if there is anything specific you think we (Openmoko) could 
do to help get this all started.

   -Sean





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Re: In the press

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

Hi,

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Scott Derrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In my opinion , the Wiki sucks

Respectfully, I disagree.

> Very difficult to find any useful information.

Usually, I can find the information I am looking for with one or two
searches on te wiki, for me, that's good enough.

Also remember that each and one of us can improve the wiki. Yes, you
can do it yourself.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

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Re: In the press

[Scott Derrick]

In my opinion , the Wiki sucks

Very difficult to find any useful information.

Scott

Vinc Duran wrote:
> I think it's accurate.
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Matt Joyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
>
> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite an ok article.
> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
>
> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki*..."
> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content
> and schedule it for updating?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org 
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> 
>
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>   

-- 

-
The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech.

Molly Ivans 


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Re: In the press

[Alexey Shvetsov]

Hi,

On Gentoo you can use crossdev to buid toolchain =)
See this guide for details
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/cross-development.xml
Or ask someone on #gentoo-embedded on freenode

On Friday 11 July 2008 10:27:36 Anthony Russello wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Speaking as someone who is trying to get the whole build environment up and
> running for the first time, I would say it is a very accurate statement.
>
> Is there any good step by step how to guide on building everything from
> scratch, from the toolchain up?
>
> I'm using gentoo, amd64, and the latest toolchain won't execute on my
> system. So I have to build it. But the documentation guides for building
> from scratch haven't worked at all.
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony
>
>

-- 
Alexey 'Alexxy' Shvetsov
Gentoo Team Ru


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Re: In the press

[matt joyce]

Jay Vaughan wrote:
>> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
>> and schedule it for updating?
>> 
>
>
> I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
> OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly  
> for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
> productive to do so ..
>
> What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
> website come up that has the following:
>
> - Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
> openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,  
> of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.
>
> - Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
> found for OpenMoko
>
> - Public forum for discussion of the news.
>
> This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
> planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
> Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
> don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it  
> were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
> 'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..
>
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
>
>
>   

I agree.
Regardless though, an out of date wiki is not helpful.

What approaches can we take to fix up the wiki


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Re: In the press

[Jay Vaughan]

> This stood out for me "The tangled pile of mostly outdated and  
> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki..."
> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content  
> and schedule it for updating?


I think, personally, its time for a 3rd-party site not related to  
OpenMoko to pick up the slack here. So much stuff happens too quickly  
for people who /should/ be updating the wiki to feel like its  
productive to do so ..

What I would like to see is something like an "mokofanboix.org"  
website come up that has the following:

- Daily blog news akin to the good ol' slashdot, of news from the  
openmoko scene, gleaned from careful inspection of the mailing lists,  
of IRC, of the codebase, of code delta's, etc.

- Public free Repository of all the latest and greatest 'cool apps'  
found for OpenMoko

- Public forum for discussion of the news.

This is, of course, sorta what we've got with things like  
planet.openmoko.org (which I check daily), combined with the  
Scaredycat repo's and other such things, but ..  for newcomers .. I  
don't think any of this is as easily approachable as it would be if it  
were all put under a single umbrella that is a bit more of an  
'openmoko pop culture' site than what we've got right now ..

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: In the press

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Am Freitag 11 Juli 2008 08:27:36 schrieb Anthony Russello:
> Speaking as someone who is trying to get the whole build environment up and
> running for the first time, I would say it is a very accurate statement.
>
> Is there any good step by step how to guide on building everything from
> scratch, from the toolchain up?
>
> I'm using gentoo, amd64, and the latest toolchain won't execute on my
> system. So I have to build it. But the documentation guides for building
> from scratch haven't worked at all.

Which part of the OpenEmbedded GettingStarted documentation does fail?

-- 
:M:

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Re: In the press

[Anthony Russello]

Hi,

Speaking as someone who is trying to get the whole build environment up and
running for the first time, I would say it is a very accurate statement.

Is there any good step by step how to guide on building everything from
scratch, from the toolchain up?

I'm using gentoo, amd64, and the latest toolchain won't execute on my
system. So I have to build it. But the documentation guides for building
from scratch haven't worked at all.

Thanks,
Anthony


-- Forwarded message --
> From: "Matt Joyce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List for Openmoko community discussion"  >
> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:41:46 +1000
> Subject: In the press
>
> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite an ok article.
> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
>
> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete
> documentation at the OpenMoko wiki*..."
> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content and
> schedule it for updating?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
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Re: In the press

[Shawn Thompson]

It is rather accurate. I went in an updated a few links to openembed and
also ended up asking the community list for how to do proper emulation as
the steps listed for mokomakefile were producing an unusable QEMU image.

-Shawn

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:14 PM, Vinc Duran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think it's accurate.
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Matt Joyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite an ok article.
>> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
>>
>> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile of mostly outdated and
>> incomplete documentation at the OpenMoko wiki*..."
>> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
>> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content and
>> schedule it for updating?
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
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>
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Re: In the press

[Vinc Duran]

I think it's accurate.

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Matt Joyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I found this yesterday, thought it was quite an ok article.
> http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/open-moko-software.ars
>
> This stood out for me "*The tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete
> documentation at the OpenMoko wiki*..."
> Is this an accurate evaluation of the wiki ?
> If so, what can we do to fix it up, how do we identify old content and
> schedule it for updating?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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