Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Would you post more details about this please? I have used JTAG for programming Atmel micros but am not yet very familiar with how it is used for system exploration when there are multiple devices on the bus. What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? On 6/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good points, Joe and Rod. To add to this, consider that this device has a JTAG port, and that you can buy the necessary interface card and cable for $150, and that the debugger is open source. So even with though the hardware was not promised to be open, we have tremendous visibility into it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Shawn Rutledge wrote: used for system exploration when there are multiple devices on the bus. We only have the Samsung MCU in the JTAG chain. What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? We use our own debug board. You need a special flexible cable to connect to JTAG (*), and our board has the corresponding connector. (*) In a phone, there isn't nearly enough space for one of the JTAG connectors you have on eval boards and the like. You could probably roll you own, though, and use some other JTAG adapter, e.g., the cute little Amontec JTAGkey. On the software side, we use OpenOCD. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
JTAG is basically a way to inspect and/or set each and every register on the processor, not only the registers you're familiar with from a programmer's point of view, but also registers that might hold the state of input and output pins, etc. Also since you can control each register and single step the processor, you can use JTAG to peek and poke to every address or register that the processor can access on other chips, e.g. RAM. This is slow, of course, but is very powerful. It's all on the wiki. I beleive there is a page describing how to download and set up the debugger. It's standard gdb (for ARM of course) with the appropriate software (drivers?) for the Neo/USB interface card. I think the USB port shows up as a serial port. Come to think of it there may be no need for drivers. Hopefully this will give you some pointers. If you want to become really popular, take notes as you go along, and then post them on the wiki as the start of a JTAG howto. Would be very useful. Michael On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Shawn Rutledge wrote: Would you post more details about this please? I have used JTAG for programming Atmel micros but am not yet very familiar with how it is used for system exploration when there are multiple devices on the bus. What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? On 6/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good points, Joe and Rod. To add to this, consider that this device has a JTAG port, and that you can buy the necessary interface card and cable for $150, and that the debugger is open source. So even with though the hardware was not promised to be open, we have tremendous visibility into it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia środa, 13 czerwca 2007, Werner Almesberger napisał: Shawn Rutledge wrote: What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? We use our own debug board. You need a special flexible cable to connect to JTAG (*), and our board has the corresponding connector. Debug board has also space to solder standard 20 pin ATM JTAG header and after that can be used with other devices then Neo1973. My friend used it to debug his own AT91 based project. Heck, they could probably make money selling the debug board separately. Any embedded software developer probably has a ton of jerry rigged MAX232 level shifter dongles, USB-232 dongles and USB-JTAG dongles. This all in one design is sweet. cheers, Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
On 6/12/07, Rod Whitby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenMoko (the registered organisation, separate from FIC the company who is creating the first piece of hardware designed for the OpenMoko software) never promised open hardware. They promised open software (the OpenMoko software, which is being developed *completely* in the open), and they gave some dates that they *expected* (not promised) FIC (the hardware company) to be ready to sell some hardware (the Neo1973) that the OpenMoko software runs on. Yes, most of the hardware designs and schematics aren't distributed, but there are shadows of scraps here and there thanks to Werner ( http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/usb-pullup/new.spice ). The Neo appears to be a well-assembled collection of chips and parts not designed or fabbed by FIC. They took some Legos and made a remarkable product. It's like a capstone design project on steriods. Given that this phone is meant to be opened and tinkered with, I imagine that schematics could be drafted without too much strain. The phone could then be //conceivably// reproduced. However, I don't know at this point how valuable open hardware would to an individual be since silicon and copper aren't that easily modified or produced at home. Quality surface-mount soldering and RF noise are just a few of the smaller hurldes to jump over. Software has the advantage for now :-) Those simple text files are just too easy to change! Until we get our own fab-labs, Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Joe Friedrichsen wrote: Yes, most of the hardware designs and schematics aren't distributed, Actually, I hope that we can release at least schematics of the debug board and the immediate surroundings of the MCU. There seems to be a lot of red tape surrounding all this, though :-( but there are shadows of scraps here and there thanks to Werner ( http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/usb-pullup/new.spice ). Oh, that one. Don't worry, that never made it into hardware. What we currently have (in GTA02) is the circuit depicted in gates.fig In general, developers/werner/ is my personal junkyard, and I'm a messy person. So please don't jump to conclusions when sifting through it. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Joe Friedrichsen wrote: Given that this phone is meant to be opened and tinkered with I'm not sure that that is actually the case. (Sean, please correct me if I am wrong in the following - I will be pleasantly surprised if you are able to do so). Yes, the OpenMoko software is meant to be fully open and tinkered with. No doubt about that at all. I haven't read anything in the OpenMoko manifesto (i.e. Sean's public slides on what OpenMoko is all about) about the project having a specific goal of designing the hardware to be open and tinkered with in general. Yes, there are instances where it seems that hardware design decisions have been made to allow access to standard interfaces like SPI, Serial, JTAG, for the knowledgeable community hardware developer to use (concidentally, those same interfaces are the ones that the original device hardware designers need access to anyway, so it could easily be just a happy by-product of good engineering), but that's very different from a phone that is meant to be opened and tinkered with in a general mass-market sense of that term (which may not be what you intended - I'm just making the distinction clear rather than disagreeing with you specifically). All I'm saying is that it is very clear that OpenMoko (the software) is meant to be fully open, and we should complain loudly if we see anything about the software which is not open (both in the code itself, and the development processes which create and maintain that code). It is not clear at all that the same holds for the hardware (and the processes required to design, manufacture, market and sell that hardware). We should be pleasantly surprised if *any* of that is open, cause that is not what was promised by the OpenMoko concept. We certainly (in my opinion) do *not* have the right to complain when something related to the development of the hardware by FIC (as opposed to the development of the OpenMoko software) is not open. Open hardware development was never promised - only open software development was promised. You can bet that in the future there will probably be totally closed hardware designs which run the totally open OpenMoko software. -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Joe Friedrichsen wrote: On 6/12/07, Rod Whitby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenMoko (the registered organisation, separate from FIC the company who is creating the first piece of hardware designed for the OpenMoko software) never promised open hardware. They promised open software (the OpenMoko software, which is being developed *completely* in the open), and they gave some dates that they *expected* (not promised) FIC (the hardware company) to be ready to sell some hardware (the Neo1973) that the OpenMoko software runs on. Yes, most of the hardware designs and schematics aren't distributed, but there are shadows of scraps here and there thanks to Werner ( http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/usb-pullup/new.spice ). The Neo appears to be a well-assembled collection of chips and parts not designed or fabbed by FIC. They took some Legos and made a remarkable product. It's like a capstone design project on steriods. Given that this phone is meant to be opened and tinkered with, I imagine that schematics could be drafted without too much strain. The phone could then be //conceivably// reproduced. However, I don't know at this point how valuable open hardware would to an individual be since silicon and copper aren't that easily modified or produced at home. Quality surface-mount soldering and RF noise are just a few of the smaller hurldes to jump over. Software has the advantage for now :-) Those simple text files are just too easy to change! Until we get our own fab-labs, Joe Good points, Joe and Rod. To add to this, consider that this device has a JTAG port, and that you can buy the necessary interface card and cable for $150, and that the debugger is open source. So even with though the hardware was not promised to be open, we have tremendous visibility into it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
