Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
I agree definitely with the parts that I excerpted below from what John said, and would further like to point out what I personally see as one of the major strengths of this project: To show the world and other device makers that there can be a market for open mobile devices/phones. Of course this phone isn't going to be perfect or meet everyone's needs, but a successful neo means a better chance for OTHER open devices on which to run openmoko/software of one's choosing, beyond the revisions made to the neo. One of the things I've seen while lurking on the list is the propensity for people to want Neo to be *exactly* what they want for their particular niche market/use. Whether or not it has a camera. Whether the accelerometers in GTA02 are accurate enough for inertial nav. Etc... . . . This project is a unique collaboration between a manufacturer and open source. Let them do what they need to do to make the manufacturing decisions for their company. And thank them for the access they are giving within an industry that is extremely closed. By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't put your must-have feature in the next rev. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
First, the mailing list is to be used for ideas and communication. You are absolutely correct that FIC will have to make the final decisions about what is and isn't included. However, suggesting that people shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. FIC will hopefully use some of the ideas (and mailing list reaction to those ideas) as a mini focus group to determine what features users will really want/use. There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. Overall, I thought your post was full of fluff (and somewhat out of left field). On the other hand I was someone who posted my disappointment with the amount of communication that has been given back to us lately. Do they have to keep us in the loop? Absolutely not, most companies aren't even near this open about future products. However, my frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us soon. I don't think that is very professional. I was going to put my disclaimer about how I am 100% for FIC and OpenMoko, but its on my original post so don't think that I am trying to bash Sean and the gang. I'm just disappointed at how the last three months have progressed. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Jonathon Suggs wrote However, suggesting that people shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. I specifically said, in my summary paragraph: By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't put your must-have feature in the next rev. Nothing in my comments suggested that people shouldn't give them suggestions. Just don't expect them all to make it into the phone or complain when they don't. There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. It is, indeed, the complainers that I was commenting on. The one that I quoted was complaining that stuff was being hidden from us because FIC is working on new specs and hasn't shared them yet. However, my frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us soon. I don't think that is very professional. Missed dates are not exceptional in this industry... - John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan At 22:51 12.6.2007, you wrote: Jonathon Suggs wrote However, suggesting that people shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. I specifically said, in my summary paragraph: By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't put your must-have feature in the next rev. Nothing in my comments suggested that people shouldn't give them suggestions. Just don't expect them all to make it into the phone or complain when they don't. There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. It is, indeed, the complainers that I was commenting on. The one that I quoted was complaining that stuff was being hidden from us because FIC is working on new specs and hasn't shared them yet. However, my frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us soon. I don't think that is very professional. Missed dates are not exceptional in this industry... - John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? FIC is giving us the information! How is that bad? -Steven On 6/12/07, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Becose is clear who is a foe and who is a friend Sorry you are to blinded to understand... At 00:31 13.6.2007, Steven ** wrote: Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? FIC is giving us the information! How is that bad? -Steven On 6/12/07, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
(correction) Because is clear who is a foe and who is a friend Sorry, you are already too blinded to understand... At 00:31 13.6.2007, Steven ** wrote: Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? FIC is giving us the information! How is that bad? -Steven On 6/12/07, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2007 00:31 schrieb Steven **: Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? HTC phones are commodity hardware that anybody can buy right here and right now. Linux on HTC Universal supports WIFI and UMTS _today_ ( http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalStatus ) Unfortunately many people prefer to whine about the features of future unreleased devices, instead of writing some productivity software useful for the end-users ;-) Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
(sorry for my english) I'm subscribed for this this thread for about 6m now. I don't want to be rude but: 1/ 99% of this thread is about an unrealistic things to be implemented on a non existent (underpowered) device. Who in the World cares about things being discussed in this thread? People wants to use their pones, to make calls, send sms/mms/emails. I'm being tired to read over and over about these obscure requirements and ideas posted here. Animations like on an iPod? Buy an iPod! 2/ I believe we are going to be a victims of a huge manipulation. There is a company like FIC. There are some adventures like Sean who are looking for their fortune. What's the way? To offer to companies like FIC a product like Neo with reduced costs. Why the costs are reduced? It's simple. There is bunch of people around the globe waiting to spare their time to help. You just have to pretend to be one of them 3/ As you can see, the 'openness' of this project is at least in question. As time goes by, there is more blah blah then some concrete information. There are some vague information about GTA1/GTA2 but overall, the entropy is going to 0. Milan At 01:02 13.6.2007, Andrew Becherer wrote: My mother told me to never feed the trolls but when I see an obvious misrepresentation of the opensource and free software movements I have to pipe up for posterity and the google cache. Not to knock the work of people like cr2 (who based on a Google query is an awesome resource for Linux on proprietary handsets) but xda-developers.com is an entirely different ball of wax than OpenMoko. I once had the opportunity to meet with Peter Brown (the executive director of the Free Software Foundation). Peter told me that one of the greatest things about Richard Stallman is his role as a reference point for all of us involved in opensource and free software. We can each measure how free we are based on where we place ourselves as compared to RMS. He is THE free software benchmark. That said Richard Stallman stated his only objection to the Neo1973 and OpenMoko was the closed source GPS code. The Neo1973 and OpenMoko are just about as free as a phone can be and it is my understanding that the GPS code can be replaced with free software thereby making it a free phone! Let's compare this to the xda-developers site. Currently on the front page of xda-developers is the following news item: For years and years, xda-developers has offered access to a collection of ROM images for 'our' phones. These images, often released by mobile carriers or device resellers, contained a version of the Microsoft Windows Mobile OS (or one of its predecessors) as well as customization added by one or more OEMs in the chain. FIC with its Neo1973 hardware and OpenMoko with free software are creating a truly open platform. Trading in hacked up images of proprietary software distributed against the terms of the licensing agreements isn't the type of freedom of which I would want a point. Should the Neo and OpenMoko come to pass they will be a true alternative to proprietary phones. FIC and the all developers who participate in the development of OpenMoko should be applauded and remarks such as yours should be ignored. -- Andrew Becherer Undergraduate, Computing and Software Systems University of Washington, Tacoma ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
damn, wrong address, sorry oleg. repost. twice can someone at openmoko fix the auto-generated reply-to fields on this mailing-list? every time this gets me On 6/13/07, Oleg Gusev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTC phones are commodity hardware that anybody can buy right here and right now. Linux on HTC Universal supports WIFI and UMTS _today_ ( http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalStatus ) Unfortunately many people prefer to whine about the features of future unreleased devices, instead of writing some productivity software useful for the end-users ;-) two words: microsoft tax impressive specs though as a sidenote, the familiar project which they are using on these devices probably overlaps with openmoko. http://familiar.handhelds.org/ are we duplicating work? familiar is 6+ years old, i'm sure they must have some good ideas that can be used? maybe we can make openmoko a fork from their project? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2007 01:42 schrieb Robin Paulson: are we duplicating work? familiar is 6+ years old, i'm sure they must have some good ideas that can be used? maybe we can make openmoko a fork from their project? Robin, please read down to the bottom of the status page. All modern GUI environments (openmoko,gpe,opie and qtopia/opie2) are supported. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
On 6/13/07, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (sorry for my english) I'm subscribed for this this thread for about 6m now. I don't want to be rude but: why so long? you must be interested or you would have long since left 1/ 99% of this thread is about an unrealistic things to be why are they unrealistic? think big implemented on a non existent (underpowered) device. Who in the World non-existent? lots of hardware units around - sun has one, they think it's useful/important. developers have them. it's a step. we've seen hardware revs already. there will be more. openmoko isn't limited to neo, it will expand cares about things being discussed in this thread? People wants to me. lots of others use their pones, to make calls, send sms/mms/emails. I'm being tired to read over and over about these obscure requirements and ideas couldn't give a monkey's how obscure it it. you want to do what mainstream does, fine. i want to do this stuff. i like doing it in itself, and it's useful to me as well. freedom to tinker posted here. Animations like on an iPod? Buy an iPod! no. too expensive. too closed. unreliable. apple and their users are smug gits. can do better 2/ I believe we are going to be a victims of a huge manipulation. maybe. i'm after a product. if i have to jump through hoops, that's fine as long as i think the steps are worthwhile There is a company like FIC. There are some adventures like Sean who are looking for their fortune. What's the way? To offer to companies like FIC a product like Neo with reduced costs. Why the costs are reduced? It's simple. There is bunch of people around the globe waiting to spare their time to help. You just have to pretend to be one of them how are they pretending? they've been a lot more open than most phone manufacturers? they're smart - give a little, take a little. sharing 3/ As you can see, the 'openness' of this project is at least in some of it, possibly. do not judge all of it on recent happenings. i'm confident sean will give more details when they pass the current roadblock question. As time goes by, there is more blah blah then some concrete information. There are some vague information about GTA1/GTA2 but overall, the entropy is going to 0. not vague. we know the new proc, the accelerometer details, wireless chipset and some other stuff. more will come out, i would expect it to be incremental. see the bigger picture ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Milan Votava writes: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Better to work on a machine in spite of the manufacturer rather than with the manufacturer? I don't follow. The day FIC wants me to sign an NDA or claims ownership of my code, I'll agree with the slaves of capitalists comment. I don't see any prospect of that happening. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Milan Votava writes: 1/ 99% of this thread is about an unrealistic things to be implemented on a non existent (underpowered) device. Who in the World cares about things being discussed in this thread? People wants to use their pones, to make calls, send sms/mms/emails. I'm being tired to read over and over about these obscure requirements and ideas posted here. Animations like on an iPod? Buy an iPod! I care. I don't really care if nobody else does. I really don't care what people want. What *I* want is the potential that PalmOS had at one time, for me to be able to not just make phone calls, but also to develop and install what I want. Being able to listen to music without buying a second device will be nice, but it's not really the point. 2/ I believe we are going to be a victims of a huge manipulation. There is a company like FIC. There are some adventures like Sean who are looking for their fortune. What's the way? To offer to companies like FIC a product like Neo with reduced costs. Why the costs are reduced? It's simple. There is bunch of people around the globe waiting to spare their time to help. You just have to pretend to be one of them I think my eyes are wider open than you think they are. Yes, FIC gets what you're suggesting out of the deal. But I get what I asked for in the first paragraph of my response. I understand that, and I regard it as a fair trade (for myself, anyway). The idea that somehow I'm better off working on reverse-engineering a phone so the company doesn't get any benefit... escapes me. I've done enough reverse-engineering, thanks. I'd prefer to never do it again. 3/ As you can see, the 'openness' of this project is at least in question. As time goes by, there is more blah blah then some concrete information. There are some vague information about GTA1/GTA2 but overall, the entropy is going to 0. Yes, I'd like more details on exactly where the problems are. But this is so far ahead of what I've seen from any other compnay, I'm not terribly worried. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Milan Votava writes: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Better to work on a machine in spite of the manufacturer rather than with the manufacturer? I don't follow. The day FIC wants me to sign an NDA or claims ownership of my code, I'll agree with the slaves of capitalists comment. I don't see any prospect of that happening. im guessing its something like: better to have a device out there in the hands of people that you can free, then a device with high hopes that never shows up in many hands. or whatever... to me it sounds like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick. the stick will always be just out of reach. unlike the PC market, where commodity parts are everywhere, and if you dont like what dell, HP and other sell preassembled you can do your own, the mobile market is about locked down devices that, after its made, cant change no matter what. hell, my guess is that by the time xda-developers.org is done, HTC have a new and better device out that people will flock to. one that the xda firmware cant work on, or at best will have some nasty flaws. and so the cycle starts again. at best one is squeezing a couple of extra years out of a obsolete device. but the neo seems to be designed from day one to be made from virtually of the shelf parts. FIC is just the hired factory (like how apple do for their stuff or microsoft does for the xbox's), they hold no copyright or patent on the neo iirc. so if FIC comes up short, one can take the parts and find some other factory willing to have a go at it. until we get home assembly kits for mobiles, thats the second best option. hell, it got a usb port that can run in host mode. can someone point me to a windows smartphone that have a similar option? it means that with the right drivers one can plug virtually any usb device into the neo and have it work. sounds to me like it can be molded into doing a lot of things. maybe if one could get it to charge of a solar cell it can act as a mobile modem for usb connected sensor ecquipment or similar. but in the end i dont care what hardware it runs on as long as it has a code core thats open to anyone to modify after their liking. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
