Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
implement encrypted conversation over GSM data calls, which AFAIK isn't available in any of the closed phones. There is such a solution of encrypted GSM call invented be some Polish company: http://www.tl2000.pl/en They claim they are first to invent this. -- Kind Regards Patryk Benderz IT Specialist Linux Registered User #377521 +48 22 538 6292 ERSTE Securities Polska S.A. ul. Królewska 16 Warszawa 00-103 KRS 065121 NIP 526-10-27-638 REGON 011136053 Kapitał akcyjny: 15.500.000 złotych (w pełni opłacony) This message and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any publication, transmission or other use of the information by a person or entity other than the intended addressee is prohibited. If you receive this in error please contact the sender and delete the material. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions as a result of the transmission. Email secured by Check Point ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Rask, Government will also want some return. I don't see clearly (yet) how a project like ours can give them that (like OLPC and portuguese's Magalhães). A phone that's more difficult to sneak spyware into than a closed one such as an IPhone or Blackberry. How do you know it isn't secretly being wiretapped? How do you *know*? With open hardware, there are no secret power supplies or audio inputs to the GSM/UMTS chip. With open hardware, you also decide what software to run on it, such as to deselect back doors, or implement encrypted conversation over GSM data calls, which AFAIK isn't available in any of the closed phones. All of what you said is true. On the other hand, perhaps the twelfth largest economy (and the sixth largest user of cell phones) http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933605.html [Note that the European Union is counted as a country] would just like the chance to have its largest university (and their students) participate in designing an open phone that could be freely licensed and manufactured by any one of its high-tech companies. A basic phone design that could be changed to meet various needs in the country. Manufacturing jobs? Werner is in contact with the professor, working on the logistics of GTA02-core. I am working (in my copious spare time...yeah, right) on a plan for financing. We are moving forward. md ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Great progress, thanks for the update. There's one thing I'm wondering about though... all of these activities seem to surround free hardware. While that's great, I wonder whether there are any plans to support the development of software as well? Cheers, :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
On Thu, 2009-07-16 at 16:05 -0400, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: Don't give up. If you look closely, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. It may be faint, but I have seen similar tunnels before, and I can see the light now. Warmest regards, maddog, to me you've just been a name for a long time. `The one with the beard, no not RMS, the other one'. Seems to be a trait of free software visionaries, I guess, ;-) Seeing how you're being a part of this community first-hand, reading your long mails and trying to appreciate the time it must take you to do all this, the energy you put forth to not only try to arrange things but also explain to people who are sometimes skeptical, has been a privilege. Thank you, David ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Hi Maddog, it certainly sounds like an amazing opportunity, almost too good to be true - what's the catch! :-) I hope that you will find there is no catch. If you do think there is a catch, please tell me. Thanks again for bringing this to us, and the detailed responses. I think this is a very positive opportunity, and I hope we are on track to the university being in a position to help out with our little projects. I think Werner is trying to catch up with Dr Zuffo - which in my mind would be a very good thing to happen as Werner is definitely the point man for the gta02-core effort. I certainly see the university as sponsors of the project, in the fact that it does cost money to run such an SMT line, to do some of the legal work, etc. I would like to find a way to help compensate them for this work, to make the project truly self-sustaining. Dr. Zuffo and I have discussed government grants and other funding ideas. Please see below. snip In order to fund the Openmoko project, I would like to suggest that *all* the things that Openmoko made open *up to this time*: o circuit design o case design o circuit board layout o testing issues. o plans for future, etc. be completely open and published as before. But (for example) the gerbers be licensed with a small royalty (1-2 dollars per phone, with a cap of 500,000 to 1,000,000 USD) only if the party will make *over* 5,000-10,000 phones There are obviously some significant costs associated with developing hardware that while HW development took place inside openmoko, were met by Sean etal. You rightly point out that if we're to be successful we'll need to find ways to meet those costs. I'd very much like to hear others thoughts on the matter, but from my point of view (and this may be wishful thinking), if there are opportunities to fund this work through grants or corporate donations, I think this would be preferable to licensing the end results (i.e. the gerbers) for production. In my mind, licensing the gerbers for production introduces restrictions on the uses that a recipient may put those designs too - including their ability to modify redistribute those files. My preference would be to encourage that redistribution, through Share-Alike / GPL style licensing of all assets. If a manufacturer wants to adopt the design to a new case, add extra buttons, changes components or invests additional resources in increasing production yields, the rational for sharing that investment with other licenses is less concrete. Some potential sources for funding might be: - phone fabs that would otherwise need to spend significantly more money either developing their own designs or buying someone else's design - government grants to seed phone production industries, or promote telephony freedom - universities or other research organisations that can use our devices as a platform for learning or their own development. If gerber licensing is believed to be the only realistic way to generate the investment needed for prototype runs etc., I think there would be benefit in any such ownership and licensing being conducted through a legal vehicle independent of any one individual or organisation (I don't know if LSITEC fits this description or not). Doing so would encourage the involvement of multiple organisations, universities or individuals, and would allow the team to select the most economic or timely method for purchasing or prototype production - through one of our partners or external commercial parties if they're able to deliver more effectively. I don't want my comments to be taken negatively, I think LSI-USP has fantastic potential for helping these projects, ensuring the longterm viability of our dream and filling in some of the gaps that are apparent in our efforts to-date. I think you're spot on that universities could be excellent partners with many shared objectives in what we're trying to achieve. Can we do this without resorting to paid licensing of any of our assets? I see a scenario where we, with USP, are in a position to generate designs that they could take into small scale production (similar to OM), selling those handsets to the community at small scale profits, using the process for the benefit of their students and generating a platform for them to grow in the future - while maintaining the SA style licensing. If it's achievable, this seems the ideal outcome to me. /$0.02 All the best, Dave ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Warren, et. al. This is a long letter...I apologize for that. I must admit that in my less optimistic moments,I wonder about that. The progress towards a stable, easily usable distro for the FR has been slow. However, I also think that at the moment the software environment requires a *lot* of work to be ready for more mainstream users. you need people trained in usability, tonnes of usability testing across a wide range of audiences, etc. I have been reading the community list intensively for the past several days. I see a group of people that have a dream, a dream which I *know* is obtainable and a dream I share, that of having a Free And Open Phone. I see people who have come a long way to making that dream come truesome of whom are tired and frustrated. I can understand that. I am also a person who has brought about 20-35 *major* software products to market, both as an engineer and a manager, and I *know* that the last 10% of the work is often the hardestbut also can happen the quickest. I saw the Linux kernel in 1994, with (approximately) 124,000 people using it, most of whom were hobbyists, students, technical people. Most of the 124,000 people using it then were not programmers, and could not make much in the way of programming help. But they could test, generate bug reports, try out new versions and report on what worked and what didn't. I can't tell you the frustration I had sometimes in pulling down floppy images and installing the software, trying to get the X-server working, or some Ethernet card. But I kept at it. Some people at Digital laughed at me when I told them that Linux is inevitable back in 1994. Most said that a good operating system kernel could not be developed in a distributed fashion by volunteers. The Linux kernel and distributions of that day were crude compared to the kernel and distributions of today, and at that time fit only a certain marketplace. But that marketplace grew, which drove more attention, got more resources, built more marketplaces, etc. Now there are hundreds of millions of systems running the Linux kernel, and most of the people who laughed at me work for Red Hat Software. In 1999 I was at a conference talking about Free Software and the GPL. Several years later I went to a conference on Asterisk, and was told by Mark Spencer that my speech inspired him to Free the Asterisk project. At that same conference I predicted that Asterisk, as a FOSS PBX system, would a huge amount of business and new jobs. Now thousands of companies around the world work with software solution providers to install and tune Asterisk based PBX systems, with Digium leading the effort. You people are leading the way to abolish last major holdout of software slavery. Civil rights in the 1960s was not easy. I don't think we're going to find that the 10,000 unit production limit is a big issue. The 10,000 units definitely will not be a big issue, but not because of the reason you imply. It will not be a big issue because if it is a big issue we will simply find a manufacturing plant to make the additional units. I (and others) will help the community do that. In fact, finding that plant would happen *way* before the 10,000 number was hit. I only mentioned the 10,000 as a limit to assure the community that the university was serious about licensing out the design in a free and open wayand that this licensing would be a free and open processyet the 10,000 is a high enough number to meet any reasonable number of prototypes without engaging one of those companies. On the other hand, I will be frank with the community. Unless we can generate a phone and software stacks that will (collectively) generate the demand for millions of Free and Open Phones, this path will either fail, or be extremely hard. No hardware component vendor will take us seriously, and we will have little or no negotiating power. That is why I cringe a bit when I hear small numbers of phones, or limitations on manufacturing. Perhaps there are unstated reasons for these small numbers, but I cringe none-the-less. ... I know it's a lot to ask, but I don't suppose you've got another ace up your sleeve? A university with a usability lab and an interest in the usability of hand-held devices? The University of Sao Paulo has expertise in this area, and other areas useful to the phone, as do many other universities. But I would like to see these universities join the project as members of the community, and not take it over. The community should shape the project, just as many other FOSS projects have been shaped by the community. The area of usability is, after all, mostly a software project, although shaped by physical limitations such as screen size, number of buttons, etc. And, as I mentioned before, the project both suffers and glorifies in the number of software stacks that are on it.
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: So organize your needs. Reach out to your own universities and software usability development groups. Get them to join the project. Don't give up. If you look closely, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. It may be faint, but I have seen similar tunnels before, and I can see the light now. This (and the aim of something better) is all the encouragement we should need. This is up to us, and we need to work together - each finding the area we can contribute - to first make the current projects successful, then expand, and later change the way people look at their phones (in the same way that Linux has changed data centres and startups). Dave ps - illume and SHR rocks my FR ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Jon 'maddog' Hall mad...@li.org writes: I am really sorry for that. If that is the worst thing you ever do, you will certainly have a wonderful life. LOL, indeed! :D -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Dave, Hi Maddog, [added cc to gta02-core list] Thanks for looking into this - it certainly sounds like an amazing opportunity, almost too good to be true - what's the catch! :-) I hope that you will find there is no catch. If you do think there is a catch, please tell me. Do you know how Dr Zuffo sees the universities involvement with, and relationship to the rest of the community - i.e. do they seem themselves driving the projects, becoming 'sponsors', or as contributing members of the wider community? I will copy Dr. Zuffo on this, but I will also give here my perception of where the University fits in. Dr. Zuffo's LSI organization has been quite active in the past couple of years in designing set-top boxes for over-the-air broadcast digital TV, different types of solar-powered WiFi routers and other electronic devices. He showed me quite a few of these when I have visited him in the past. From this he formulated the idea of having the LSI organization formalized, and has been finishing up the creation of his state-of-the-art facility, including an SMT line that mirrors the one used by a large cellular telephone handset company who will go un-named at this point. Trust me, the cellular telephone company has nothing to do with this project, and the only reason I mention them at all is to allow you to know that the SMT line is eminently capable of doing this type of work. I might also add that Dr. Zuffo's set-top box used the ARM architecture, so he and his students are very knowledgeable about it. His group also has knowledge about Intel's Atom processors and other chip sets. Many months ago I met Dr. Zuffo, showed him the GTA02 and mentioned to him the work the community has been doing. I believe he bought two phones from iSolve, Koolu's Brazilian distributor, to do additional software work. Recently, when Sean's company changed direction, I approached Dr. Zuffo to see if the university would be willing to host the project. I certainly see them joining as community members, and I think that Dr. Zuffo might encourage some of his students and professors to join our ranks even outside of this arrangement. I certainly see the university as sponsors of the project, in the fact that it does cost money to run such an SMT line, to do some of the legal work, etc. I would like to find a way to help compensate them for this work, to make the project truly self-sustaining. Dr. Zuffo and I have discussed government grants and other funding ideas. Please see below. But in the end, I would like to see the community drive the project, and from my conversations with him, I think that Dr. Zuffo is on this page too. However, I will warn you that he is serious about this, and will expect capable leadership. From my experience with FOSS groups, I believe that that the community is capable of giving this leadership. From my point of view, it sounds like they've got a lot to offer the projects (both in expertise and facilities), and I think our community would be stronger with them as members. I'm assuming from your messages below that (initially at least) they are happy participating in the kicad / CC-SA licensed community process gta02-core has adopted so far? While I have not discussed these issues with him in depth, I think he would embrace the use of kicad and other FOSS tools. The University of Sao Paulo has had a leadership position in Free Software use. As to CC-SA, as I mentioned above, I would like to see the project self-sustaining. Under Openmoko there were a series of things that were paid for by Sean's sponsoring company, and when they shifted direction things started to get a bit dicey. With regards to my other project with the professor, we have discussed a model where the design will be fully open, designed openly, and licensable by manufacturing companies. However, as the project moves from prototype and pilot to full production, the design has to move to manufacturing companies who would pay a royalty of 1-2 dollars (probably with a cap on total amount) for the design. This would go back into the design process at the University. Small quantities (for hobbyist, researcher and universities) would be licensed gratis. By small, I am probably talking 1000-2000 units, with other licensing available for special cases. In order to fund the Openmoko project, I would like to suggest that *all* the things that Openmoko made open *up to this time*: o circuit design o case design o circuit board layout o testing issues. o plans for future, etc. be completely open and published as before. But (for example) the gerbers be licensed with a small royalty (1-2 dollars per phone, with a cap of 500,000 to 1,000,000 USD) only if the party will make *over* 5,000-10,000 phones. This way universities, small companies, etc. can get started, but if the producers start to make and sell large numbers of phones, the university will make some money in royalties to
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Levy, and would like to know if is something that I could do to participate on this new effort opened by you. First I want to say that I do not consider this a new effort, but a continuation of the effort that the Openmoko community started. If I opened something, it is only a door to help the community move forward. This, by the way, is one of the things I do, and I have done it many, many times before. I think we need to give the community time to absorb the proposal, to comment on it, and to satisfy the concerns and issues that may be brought up. In the end I hope that people will see this change as being a positive one, and the project will be more open than ever. For right now, please continue to work with the Openmoko community on moving forward. There is a lot of work to do in getting the various software stacks onto the phone and stable. There is also a lot to do in moving the hardware documentation forward, as well as adapting the documentation of the software to the actual hardware itself. Turning in well-documented bug reports on the software will also help, as well as promoting the Openmoko project inside your own university, getting them to understand the true value of the project. This will move the Openmoko project forward, even if a match with the University is not accomplished for some reason. Warmest regards, maddog ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Michal, Could you clarify a bit what exactly is the goal of this effort? Hmmm, I wrote a lot before I realized that you probably meant by this effort the effort of having the university join the Openmoko project, but originally I took it as the greater effort of bringing out an Open Phone that people could use and extend and wrote a lot on that topic, so please bear with me: I can only give my impressions of the Openmoko project, where it is and what I think the community desires from it. I note that I have already answered one person who seemed to think that putting the software stacks on a phone from Samsung was a better use of time and energy than designing open hardware, so apparently there are (as in any large community) many different ideas and goals. Please bear with me. Some of these goals may be personal to me, and not shared by others. Is it just designing a line of open hardware mobile devices (that's what it sounds like), and selling them to manufacturers? I have always hated the word just, particularly when it is applied to a person I am 'just' a documentation person or I am just an end user has always irritated me, but in this case I equally hate the word applied to this effort. And while I know that you did not mean to offend, Just designing a line of 'open hardware' mobile devices grates on my nerves a bit. I do not want people to understate or underestimate what has been done by the Openmoko project so far. As to selling them to manufacturers, the concept of having a design freely licensable to different manufacturers so they can compete to produce the lowest cost hardware is something that is good, IHMO. Having many manufacturers producing Openmoko phones means that the quantities go up and the number of platforms that can run any of the software stacks increasesalso good in my estimation. Chip producers respect you and pay attention to you when your design sells 50,000,000 phones a year instead of 12000. The handset manufacturers I know are not interested in one-offs. The investment they make in bringing out a line of hardware would not be paid back until 100,000 or more units are sold. Or do they also want to help improve the software, like kernel, fso, x11 drivers, etc for the Neo? I assume by they you mean the university? I have invited them to join the software effort, and I think they are interested, but they could have done that at any time. They could participate in the software activities, just as the rest of the community has joined. One slight issue, however, is the cost of the phones in Brazil. Due to Brazilian import duties, which can (with both federal and local duties) range up to 94% of manufacturing cost and shipping) make the phone *cost* a minimum of 550 USD FOB Taiwan. This is without any of the expenses or profit made by the importer. By having the phones designed in Brazil, with the import duty on the parts being 6% the finished prototype phone prices might be reasonable for a Brazilian to purchase even given the higher prototype costs. Through a university resale program we might get a considerable number of USP (and other Brazilian university) students helping with the software. Shipping phones out of Brazil to other countries should not cost any more than shipping from Taiwan (with, of course, the possible exception of shipping to China itself). I do think that if/when the university starts working with the community full swing that there will be a lot more of the university students getting involved, simply because of the university's involvement. And Professor Zuffo has indicated that they have various software skills (codecs, security expertise) that they can add to the effort. One of the issues here is that the project has not exactly been focused on one stack of softwareergo the number of cycles that it is taking to get any one stack ready has taken a long time. IMHO this is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because the hardware and kernel are tickled in many ways, making the kernel more robust in the long run and a person has choice in the software stack. A curse because instead of one intense effort we have several somewhat coordinated efforts. My feeling is that the GTA02 device itself is in pretty good shape compared to the software it runs. So how will the community benefit from a GTA03? Yes, I agree the GTA02 is in pretty good shape compared to the software it runs. However, it is in good shape for the middle of 2008.not necessarily for the year 2009 or even the end of 2008. Eventually the tide will turn and the software will be in good shape while the hardware is perceived as being long in the tooth. If you pay attention to the hardware lists you will know that the Glamo chip is not the best in the world, so removing it and doing a bit of redesign will both save manufacturing costs and may actually give better performance and/or battery life. The GSM unit, I am told, is no longer being
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
On 15/07/2009 7:39 AM, Michal Brzozowski wrote: Could you clarify a bit what exactly is the goal of this effort? Is it just designing a line of open hardware mobile devices (that's what it sounds like), and selling them to manufacturers? Or do they also want to help improve the software, like kernel, fso, x11 drivers, etc for the Neo? My feeling is that the GTA02 device itself is in pretty good shape compared to the software it runs. So how will the community benefit from a GTA03? I think the short answer is; the software will continue to move forward with or without the help of an external entity. The resources for continuing the hardware advancement are limited and any assistance is better than none. This opportunity seems to surpass the 'better than none' category :) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Dear Openmoko Community, In light of the refocusing of Sean's company on consumer items, there has been a perceived vacuum created in the Openmoko community's efforts to create next-generation open cellular smart phones. I happened to be working with Dr. Marcelo Zuffo, a full professor and the head of the Laboratory for Integrated Systems at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, on an unrelated project. I asked Dr. Zuffo if the university would be willing to join the Openmoko community and to provide critical resources to the task at hand. I subsequently have met with Dr. Zuffo several times on this matter, have seen his facilities (which include a very modern and state-of-the-art SMT line) and have discussed the goals of the community to design and prototype a completely open design for a cellular phone. Dr. Zuffo and the university understand your issues, understand free and open source software and hardware and are willing to assist the community with this project. I might add that the university can bring several new capabilities to the community: First of all, Dr. Zuffo has discussed the Openmoko project with the Minister of Telecommunications of Brazil, and the Minister is very enthusiastic about the concept. Having the support of the government of the twelfth largest economy behind the project might really help us with various negotiations with vendors. Secondly the University has been working on several aspects of telecommunications for a long time, and therefore has expertise in telephonic security and codecs (among other things) that could be of use to the Openmoko community. Third, the university has the ability and expertise to design new integrated circuits. Recently they designed a a range of analog-digital chips. Therefore the possibility of developing, manufacturing and freely licensing new chips to help reduce the cost of the phone is possible. Forth, while the facilities I mentioned are capable of producing up to 10,000 units at the rate of one circuit board every 30 seconds, the purpose of the facilities is research, developing and support projects that can lead innovation, the lab's charter does not allow them to manufacture more units then the 10,000 because that would be commercial production. Therefore the university has a goal of freely licensing the design to companies for manufacture. Fifth, the university would be happy to host the mailing lists and forums of the Openmoko project. If some of the software projects need hosting and can not find hosting services other places, the university will consider acting as a primary hosting facility for these projects. Sixth, personally I would like to see this concept extended, of inviting more universities and their facilities to help with this project world-wide. I hope that the leadership of the University of Sao Paulo will help create the structure and inspiration for this to happen. Finally, the university has a non-profit legal entity, LSITEC, which can easily do the type of paperwork that Sean's company did (NDAs, certification) so the community can leverage off that. I know that there will be a lot of questions and considerations to take before the community is comfortable with this relationship. Dr. Zuffo has asked that I help coordinate the joining together of the university with the community, and in the interest of seeing Openmoko continue to do the fine work started by Sean and all of you, I will be glad to help in this capacity. I am monitoring the community mailing list, and people are also welcome to email me directly (mad...@li.org) with questions that you do not (for any reason) wish to post to the list. A copy of Dr. Zuffo's letter of intent is below. I have the original PDF if anyone would like to see it, but it was too big to make it through the community's standards on mailing lists unmoderated, and I thought you might like to see this as soon as possible. Warmest regards, Jon maddog Hall President, Linux International CTO of Koolu, Inc. == São Paulo, 8th July 2009, Mr. Jon Maddog Hall The Executive Director Linux International. Dear Mr. Hall, according our conversation LSI-USP the Laboratory for Integrated Systems at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, is interested in hosting the OpenMoko Community to design innovative cell phone designs. We would like to offer the community the following facilities: ‐ State-of-art facilities for SMT (Surface Mounting Technology) prototyping of complex electronics boards; ‐ State-of-art facilities and expertise for design HW and SW in telephony and communications; ‐ Expertise in testing and certification; ‐ A new building located at a Center position at USP São Paulo, to host community meetings, as well as computational infrastructure for email , WEB servers and project databases. -LSI has a long term expertise in designing complex electronics
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Hi, This is amazing - if it pans out. Not only would this add hw RD capabilities - this could also help shore up the software with (I hope eventually) so many students getting the opportunity to work closely with the hw team in a university. If it works out - the free phone will live on - and grow! Great work! -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/The-University-of-S%C3%A3o-Paulo%27s-intent-to-join-Openmoko-development-tp3250060p3250262.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: Dear Openmoko Community, In light of the refocusing of Sean's company on consumer items, there has been a perceived vacuum created in the Openmoko community's efforts to create next-generation open cellular smart phones. I happened to be working with Dr. Marcelo Zuffo, a full professor and the head of the Laboratory for Integrated Systems at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, on an unrelated project. I asked Dr. Zuffo if the university would be willing to join the Openmoko community and to provide critical resources to the task at hand. I subsequently have met with Dr. Zuffo several times on this matter, have seen his facilities (which include a very modern and state-of-the-art SMT line) and have discussed the goals of the community to design and prototype a completely open design for a cellular phone. Dr. Zuffo and the university understand your issues, understand free and open source software and hardware and are willing to assist the community with this project. I might add that the university can bring several new capabilities to the community: First of all, Dr. Zuffo has discussed the Openmoko project with the Minister of Telecommunications of Brazil, and the Minister is very enthusiastic about the concept. Having the support of the government of the twelfth largest economy behind the project might really help us with various negotiations with vendors. Secondly the University has been working on several aspects of telecommunications for a long time, and therefore has expertise in telephonic security and codecs (among other things) that could be of use to the Openmoko community. Third, the university has the ability and expertise to design new integrated circuits. Recently they designed a a range of analog-digital chips. Therefore the possibility of developing, manufacturing and freely licensing new chips to help reduce the cost of the phone is possible. Forth, while the facilities I mentioned are capable of producing up to 10,000 units at the rate of one circuit board every 30 seconds, the purpose of the facilities is research, developing and support projects that can lead innovation, the lab's charter does not allow them to manufacture more units then the 10,000 because that would be commercial production. Therefore the university has a goal of freely licensing the design to companies for manufacture. Fifth, the university would be happy to host the mailing lists and forums of the Openmoko project. If some of the software projects need hosting and can not find hosting services other places, the university will consider acting as a primary hosting facility for these projects. Sixth, personally I would like to see this concept extended, of inviting more universities and their facilities to help with this project world-wide. I hope that the leadership of the University of Sao Paulo will help create the structure and inspiration for this to happen. Brenda Wang wrote: +1 It's really great to hear this. In Taiwan, Tsing Hua university also has a OPENlab. Finally, the university has a non-profit legal entity, LSITEC, which can easily do the type of paperwork that Sean's company did (NDAs, certification) so the community can leverage off that. I know that there will be a lot of questions and considerations to take before the community is comfortable with this relationship. Dr. Zuffo has asked that I help coordinate the joining together of the university with the community, and in the interest of seeing Openmoko continue to do the fine work started by Sean and all of you, I will be glad to help in this capacity. I am monitoring the community mailing list, and people are also welcome to email me directly (mad...@li.org) with questions that you do not (for any reason) wish to post to the list. A copy of Dr. Zuffo's letter of intent is below. I have the original PDF if anyone would like to see it, but it was too big to make it through the community's standards on mailing lists unmoderated, and I thought you might like to see this as soon as possible. Warmest regards, Jon maddog Hall President, Linux International CTO of Koolu, Inc. == São Paulo, 8th July 2009, Mr. Jon Maddog Hall The Executive Director Linux International. Dear Mr. Hall, according our conversation LSI-USP the Laboratory for Integrated Systems at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, is interested in hosting the OpenMoko Community to design innovative cell phone designs. We would like to offer the community the following facilities: ‐ State-of-art facilities for SMT (Surface Mounting Technology) prototyping of complex electronics boards; ‐ State-of-art facilities and expertise for design HW and SW in telephony and communications; ‐ Expertise in testing and
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
David, I would appreciate the translation. Perhaps you can put those on your web site. As to the other universities, let's see what model we can create with USP, keeping the other universities in mind, then we can extend that. I do believe that growing the community through university involvement is important. md ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
If it works out - the free phone will live on - and grow! I will say that I have been saddened and angered lately (and people who have seen my anger in the past know what that is) about the questions of is the FreeRunner dead. I do not blame the people who asked the question, just the fact that the question was even considered. Let me tell you that even if (for some mysterious reason) that the University of São Paulo (USP) does not work out, I have at least two other plans that could be invoked. Warmest regards, md ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Brenda, Brenda Wang wrote: +1 It's really great to hear this. In Taiwan, Tsing Hua university also has a OPENlab. I would like to work with the community to engage various universities, but as I have mentioned before, with limited resources and a press to get the Openmoko program stable and moving forward again, I think we need to do this systematically and directly. In the meantime, do you have a contact name for the OPENlab at Tsing Hua University? Warmest regards, maddog ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Harry, Nice to hear good news from maddog, but I am curious how many Freerunner that Koolu will buy from Openmoko? I have no idea what this has to do with the conversation, other than Koolu (of course) having a business interest in seeing that the Openmoko is successful as a project. I do not think that Koolu being a for-profit company is any secret, and I was careful to acknowledge my Koolu contacts. How many phones that Koolu buys to distribute is based on Koolu's business plan, distribution models, software Koolu chooses to support and other business considerations of Koolu. Do we want the Openmoko project to be successful? Stellar? Something that people talk about in the news and on the street? Absolutely, and without hesitation. From my conversations with Dr. Zuffo I can promise you that the designs coming this liaison will continue to follow the philosophy of the Openmoko community and will be equally available to all manufacturing agents that wish to participate. The factor that the university can only produce 10,000 units, and *has* to license out the design to have more produced was a *BIG* factor in this path. It forces the university (and the project) to treat manufacturers equally. My other two plans did not guarantee this equality, and therefore were less desirable. Warmest regards, md ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
John, I made some contact with Openmoko regarding joining their Openlab programme a while back now and need to follow that up. We have created an MSc in Network and Mobile Computing which has a module designed to specifically use Openmoko. The MSc starts this September so I am very interested to share ideas and help spread the love. Sounds goodand the university's program to use Openmoko in the MSc sounds great. Are you then the contact for Openlab? Can you speak for them? One of the issues of lining up USP was to get to the right people (Dr. Zuffo) who went to the right people (the administration of USP), who influenced the right people (the Minister of Communications) who then let it all trickle back down again, making Dr. Zuffo's job a lot easier. I admit to talking this over with a few community members ahead of time to get their initial reactions, but I did not want to raise people's hopes before I had confirmation from the university. There were many reasons why I considered the University of São Paulo: The university is the largest in Brazil (86,000 students, 12,000 PhD candidates). It is where I saw my first Linux Beowulf supercomputer, in 1996. They consistently win awards at the supercomputing event held every year. http://www.usp.br/internacional/home.php?idioma=en I can not stress enough that the building that Dr. Zuffo talks about is rather large and brand new, and that even way before the switch in strategy of Sean's company (just about a year ago) I had discussed the Openmoko phone with various members of the faculty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dVch2nSuBA I do not want to be perceived as shoving this down your throats. This is the community's project. I am only trying to help. Warmest regards, md ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Brenda Wang ccat...@seed.net.tw writes: Brenda Wang wrote: Professor King is the contact of OPENLAB at Tsing Hua university. You can visit his homepage. And contact him. http://www.cs.nthu.edu.tw/~king/ I believe that he will happy to receive your mail. Regards. Brenda Wang Brenda, i'm sorry to say this but i don't think people are comfortable with reading what you write. The main reason is that you write your answers as it was a quotation of previous conversation. The lines you write shouldn't have _any_ characters in the beginning. I can't even imagine how you do it, all MUAs i saw (even ms outlook!) do not provoke that. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
Brenda, I am sorry to make you guys uncomfortable. While Paul was right about the convention, and following convention may make it easier to read your email in the future, I (for one) was able to determine what you meant. I am really sorry for that. If that is the worst thing you ever do, you will certainly have a wonderful life. Thank you for the email. Warmest regards, maddog ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The University of São Paulo's intent to join Openmoko development
On 14/07/2009 1:28 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: Brenda, I am sorry to make you guys uncomfortable. While Paul was right about the convention, and following convention may make it easier to read your email in the future, I (for one) was able to determine what you meant. I am really sorry for that. If that is the worst thing you ever do, you will certainly have a wonderful life. Thank you for the email. I concur, though I may have been mildly confused for a few seconds, which is quite within my comfort zone :) Sarton ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
