Re: Openmoko multi-touch
Russell Hay writes: > Given the recent announcement of multi-touch support within X and the Linux > kernel - http:// > www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMyMQ > > ...what are the remaining hardware limitations that restrict multi-touch > being on the Neo Freerunner > used rather than the clever workarounds that've been discussed here > previously? Surprisingly, that announcement didn't change our hardware, so that's the same limitation as it was before: resistive touchscreen. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko multi-touch
Given the recent announcement of multi-touch support within X and the Linux kernel - http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMyMQ ...what are the remaining hardware limitations that restrict multi-touch being on the Neo Freerunner used rather than the clever workarounds that've been discussed here previously? Russ 2009/4/23 Mikko Husari > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Foss User wrote: > > I have a few questions on OpenMoko phones. I am planning to buy one. > > > > 1. Which is the default OS that comes in OpenMoko: OM 2007 ? > > > > When I got mine (last december), it had 2007.x and it stayed there for a > few hours, then it got replaced, many times :) > > > 2. Do you use the default OS or have you flashed soe other OS of your > own? > > > > No, and you should also try as many as possible. > > > 3. Which OS is known for booting faster than others. I use Debian on > > my laptop and I would want to know how good Debian is for Freerunner? > > Does it boot fast enough? > > > No experience with debian on freerunner, it should be just as fast as > others. It all depends on what software you decide to use as a user > interface. In my opinion, Qt Extended Improved feels the fastest but i > was quite pleased with the recent shr-unstables too. Most "phonelike" > would be the Qt Extended Improved. > > > 4. Is multi-touch in neo freerunner not availabe because the hardware > > doesn't support it or is it because the software doesn't support it? > > > > This is a hw-issue but there are a few propeller heads which try to > circumvent that by sw. > > > 5. In the OpenMoko Neo Freerunner order page I have two options relevant > to me. > > > > Purchase Options > > > > * GSM 900 ( Promotion, Extras: pouch and headset x 1) $299.00 USD > > * GSM 850 ( Promotion, Extras: pouch and headset x 1) $299.00 USD > > > > Now, I don't know which one I should be going for. I am from India > > and we use GSM sim cards here. I use Vodafone SIM card. So which is > > the one I should be buying? > > > > India uses the GSM 900/1800 frequency. > > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080116131550AASW7Yn > http://www.simoncells.com/scripts/gsmzone.asp > > - -- husku > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAknw45QACgkQYntoxOJkGwCePCvupLmuJsOxAbX4Bcyaa0m1 > uxcAniD87YN4dSL9KCVbRleRfEvP5zcR > =l+AU > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:09:41 +0200 "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > Kelvie Wong wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Charles Pax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I > >> remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but > >> we're limited by X.org. > >> > >> -Charles > > > > Actually, X.org supports it (google for MPX), the hardware does not. > > Well, read last posts by the MPX author about multi-pointer vs > multi-touch. It isn't the same thing. So, actually it should be easier > to implement, but I don't know if it's completely available yet. indeed multi-touch != multipointer - peter is right. multitouch devices could be exported by xinput devices (The same ones used for wacom tablets for example that gimp and inkscape can use). BUT u'd need software to catch up and then actually use the xinput devices and interpret their input sensibly and frankly THAT is a big problem. as such freerunner does not have multitouch. freerunner is a product. its future is staying exactly as it is - it is not a LINE of products. a future device openmoko makes may or may not have multitouch, but as such we have enough work and problem getting single touch working right and all the apps in a state of "this is good enough for a mere mortal to use". multitouch is just a complete distraction until then that will waste time. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
I agree, one of the coolest features of the IPhone is its multi touch capability to zoom or do multi select. Scott Charles Pax wrote: > Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware > revision? I remember hearing something about how it's supported by the > hardware, but we're limited by X.org. > > -Charles > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air however slight lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. William O. Douglas, Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
Kelvie Wong wrote: > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Charles Pax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I >> remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but >> we're limited by X.org. >> >> -Charles > > Actually, X.org supports it (google for MPX), the hardware does not. Well, read last posts by the MPX author about multi-pointer vs multi-touch. It isn't the same thing. So, actually it should be easier to implement, but I don't know if it's completely available yet. -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Charles Pax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I > remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but > we're limited by X.org. > > -Charles Actually, X.org supports it (google for MPX), the hardware does not. -- Kelvie Wong ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Is Multi-touch in Freerunner's Future?
Will we ever see multi-touch on the current Freerunner hardware revision? I remember hearing something about how it's supported by the hardware, but we're limited by X.org. -Charles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: AW: multi-touch?
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb Fabian Off: >> Hey! >> >> How does synaptics handle this? When I look at the output my touchpad does, > I can see "X Y Fingers" Values... Maybe we could look into this code and see > how they do detect the amount of fingers? Dunno whether they work nearly the > same, but I believe this could maybe point us into the right direction :) >> >> Only my idea... 2-finger-scrolling is so great! > > To the best of my knowledge, at least MY synaptics in front of me right now is > a capacitive type, and even this one doesn't support multitouch right now > (though maybe a driver issue). > Please google or wp for capacitive vs resistive ts! Our 4-wire resistive type > ts is a device as dumb as bread, NO silicon inside. You simply can't do muto > with such device in a reasonable straight way. How do you get info of > X1,Y1,X2,Y2 out of a device with 4 ANALOG connectors (GND incl!)??? It may be > feasible, but it's rather tricky and needs quite some special hw AROUND the > silicon-free ts. > There's a way to detect the "surrounding square" of _all_ touchpoints on a > 4w-R-ts, at least with GTA02 i think. You may use this to detect there's more > than one touchpoint. Still you have no correct data for the coords of the 2 > (or 3?) points. That sounds interesting, if you can tell for a fact that two points are being pressed down, then you could use some fancy maths and determine their locations, it would probably solve the one of the multi touch emulation problems AFAIK, which is not knowing if two points are being touched on either side, or one is being touched in the centre. I probably make no sense :) Federico ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: AW: multi-touch?
Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb Fabian Off: > Hey! > > How does synaptics handle this? When I look at the output my touchpad does, I can see "X Y Fingers" Values... Maybe we could look into this code and see how they do detect the amount of fingers? Dunno whether they work nearly the same, but I believe this could maybe point us into the right direction :) > > Only my idea... 2-finger-scrolling is so great! To the best of my knowledge, at least MY synaptics in front of me right now is a capacitive type, and even this one doesn't support multitouch right now (though maybe a driver issue). Please google or wp for capacitive vs resistive ts! Our 4-wire resistive type ts is a device as dumb as bread, NO silicon inside. You simply can't do muto with such device in a reasonable straight way. How do you get info of X1,Y1,X2,Y2 out of a device with 4 ANALOG connectors (GND incl!)??? It may be feasible, but it's rather tricky and needs quite some special hw AROUND the silicon-free ts. There's a way to detect the "surrounding square" of _all_ touchpoints on a 4w-R-ts, at least with GTA02 i think. You may use this to detect there's more than one touchpoint. Still you have no correct data for the coords of the 2 (or 3?) points. Maybe eventually I'll write a little article on it - so I don't have to repeat myself all the time ;-) /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
AW: multi-touch?
Hey! How does synaptics handle this? When I look at the output my touchpad does, I can see "X Y Fingers" Values... Maybe we could look into this code and see how they do detect the amount of fingers? Dunno whether they work nearly the same, but I believe this could maybe point us into the right direction :) Only my idea... 2-finger-scrolling is so great! - Ursprüngliche Mail Von: Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> An: community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Bastian Muck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 29. Mai 2008, 19:41:00 Uhr Betreff: Re: multi-touch? Am Do 29. Mai 2008 schrieb Bastian Muck: > I have a little idea. Imagine, you put your finger somewhere on the > right side of the screen. The "average" point is also somewhere at the > right side. When you put another finger e.g. at the left side the > "average" point jumps somewhere to the middle. This "jump" is where we > could guess, that at least two fingers touch the screen. You can't use It's the same as sliding with the one finger from right to middle. Remember the pressure is also important for the "average", so if you hit really hard with the left finger, the "avg" still does no "jump" but a fast move over the middle some way left and then back to middle. still a single point gesture. Allegedly there is (or has been) sth like "pressure detection" in the ts-driver, that probably meassures the R *between* the 2 foils. IIRC that couldn't be done with GTA01, but is maybe feasible with GTA02. It would give some additional info to maybe distinguish multitouch from gesture. I already said I'll have a look at it some day... /jOERG __ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail. Dem pfiffigeren Posteingang. http://de.overview.mail.yahoo.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: multi-touch?
Am Do 29. Mai 2008 schrieb Bastian Muck: > I have a little idea. Imagine, you put your finger somewhere on the > right side of the screen. The "average" point is also somewhere at the > right side. When you put another finger e.g. at the left side the > "average" point jumps somewhere to the middle. This "jump" is where we > could guess, that at least two fingers touch the screen. You can't use It's the same as sliding with the one finger from right to middle. Remember the pressure is also important for the "average", so if you hit really hard with the left finger, the "avg" still does no "jump" but a fast move over the middle some way left and then back to middle. still a single point gesture. Allegedly there is (or has been) sth like "pressure detection" in the ts-driver, that probably meassures the R *between* the 2 foils. IIRC that couldn't be done with GTA01, but is maybe feasible with GTA02. It would give some additional info to maybe distinguish multitouch from gesture. I already said I'll have a look at it some day... /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
That On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 18:03 -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > They have no hope of preventing multi-touch itself from > becoming the accepted mainstream, and then resistive touchscreens are > probably going to be seen as obsolete. That is assuming that mainstream has an interesting in the technology aside from "Oh cool." As fair as I have seen it, that is not the case. That doesn't mean that we can't look into it, it just means that standardization of multi-touch panels are years away. On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 16:42 +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: > I have thought a bit about multitouch and its possible usecases and the > longer > I think about it the less exciting I find it on a mobile phone. I will admit that most implementation of these panels are not completely thought through. iPhone/iPod Touch itself happens to waist many of it's functions. > The technology per se is great and I'm sure it will allow for great > innovation > among UI's on large monitors, tablets, and even desks. There is no denying that, desks have been the most interesting. > However, on small screen systems such as the Neo (or even the iPhone) -- what > do you want to do with it? The ubiquitous zooming and rotating examples are > not convincing me at all. With some clever state logic you can zoom and > rotate very efficient on unitouch systems. > > So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? Well, more to talk about. If anything, a few case studies over uses and possibilities are worth exploring. If is gets big enough, the wiki should be employed on keeping the data... That is assume that the MT path is the one that is chosen. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> The ubiquitous zooming and rotating examples are not convincing me at all. > > They seem pretty cool to me. > >> So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? > > How do you right-click on a touchscreen? The old way has been to hold > down the stylus for some timeout period. But with multitouch there > disassembled the iPhone (and the Air) and discovered that; I haven't > found anything on Broadcom's site. So I don't understand if Apple was > able to coerce them into making it exclusive. I mean, Apple bought Dell used to be attractive because they had exclusive availability for certain technologies for some period, eg in the early days only Dells had UXGA LCD at a reasonable price. So it wouldn't surprise me Apple had the same strategic deal they blew money on for exclusivity on critical technology they don't actually own the rights to. However I agree with Mickey, it is dangerous to focus overmuch on every technology that exists on any competitor product and try to stuff everything in the one device. It will be a much better device that is perfectly adapted to the intended genuinely useful use-case and that is not the same as ticking every single box in terms of features. Unless it hits a nail on the head for genuine use multitouch or other $COMPETITOR_FEATURE can just be a distraction. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHzr90OjLpvpq7dMoRAlMCAJ0dWlSH37zbovg2GGayjRrChCGIYgCdGWRi 0bDTfoXh0dsd8wOREPMA0A8= =0k/p -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Am Mi 5. März 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): > joerg ha scritto: > > I'm investigating to squeeze some multi-touch properties out of the GTA02 > > 4wire-resistor touchscreen, by hacking the basics and probing the ts in a > > couple non-recommended completely different manners. There still is a > > little hope... > > What's your hope exactly? > Do you have some "secrets" to share? :P Well, it's basically a 4wire (2 metal coated transparent plastic foils) design: you apply + and - at X+ X- which creates a linear voltage gradient over the one foil, and you messure the voltage at any of both Y of the point where the second foil touches the first. (and vice versa x<>y, for other coordinate). So much for the classics. However there are a couple of other permutations to apply + and minus and/or leave open and where to probe for voltage, given you have 4 wires and 3 states (+,-,probe+open) for each one of the 4 to choose from. Hard to explain without some graphics showing a simplified circuit diagram. And then, if all this fails, there still remains the dynamic approach (pulse-response), for there are two planes creating a R-C-R-C-R... network, resembling somewhat like e.g. a coax cable. You know you can analyze coax (10Base2 ethernet, even BaseT) for position of sharp bends with an analysis of pulse response. Somewhat like hitting a drum and telling from resulting sound where there are the 2 stones on the drum membrane. All this *VERY* theoretical anyway for now, for i got scope etc, but even don't have real hw to test with it :-( (who was the guy with a fried NEO and no idea what to do with it? I had a real use for it, even better when it's broken), and i was too lazy (or too poorly gifted) to do the math yet. What i expect/hope: At least i now got diagrams, so i know what _can_ or _must_not_ be done with given hw in GTA01/02. Just dreaming for now... ;-) But i'm quite sure it's feasible to get at least kinda force feedback for the single touch. Maybe more... Amazing what 12 formulae with 5 (10) unknown variables(R) can reveal (ok, this are just numbers for instance, didn't the math yet). When it comes to dynamic pulse response analysis - with all sorts of filters and the whole scary stuff (any volunteers?), we probably even get the weight of user-C touching the screen ;-) In an ideal world. A/D converters of CPU to sample the response are not _so_ bad. All this [patent pending, (C), smells like me etc]:jOERG ;-). At least mention me, and send me a beer each day, and this is prior art. Ehrrm. This week CeBIT, let's see what's my schedule for next week. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 5:25 PM, "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also using a touch-only screen they don't loose their usability: the > resize, mostly, could be done simply with a scroll, while the rotation This is kindof like saying what do you need a mouse for, your keyboard has arrow keys doesn't it? (or a control key... you could just move the cursor with control-k, control-l, etc.) The whole point is you don't need to use up any real estate with scroll bars: an image can fill the whole screen and yet you can still interact with it. Dragging/panning seems more intuitive, too... it's just that with such long experience with computers, we've gotten used to the status quo. As for pinching to zoom, the only thing which makes me uncertain is the alleged existence of a patent on it... either it will be licensed cheaply, or stricken down in court, or Apple will just let it go unchallenged (maybe at least in the case of open-source software), or non-Apple devices can be sold with gesture programmability, and it's up to the end user to define what it is that the pinch gesture will do. Or if Apple really succeeds in keeping that gesture for themselves, then it cannot be a standard, because other gestures will have to be invented. But the existence of the original Mac did not prevent GEM or AmigaOS or Windows from being developed, either, despite Apple's attempts to claim ownership of some ideas. They have no hope of preventing multi-touch itself from becoming the accepted mainstream, and then resistive touchscreens are probably going to be seen as obsolete. > using the gimp-way (put a placeholder on the rotating fulcrum tapping, > then use a finger dragging the image...). That requires at least two steps, and involves more screen clutter (at least a separate fulcrum object). Gimp takes a bit of time to learn, even if you are already familiar with Photoshop or (gods forbid) PC Paint, like I was on my first PC, without a mouse, back in 1988. :-) (yes I could draw decent monochrome pictures with only the keyboard. I sure was glad when that guy whose lawn I was mowing finally gave me a surplus optical mouse, though.) Interaction design always has room for improvement, and major new technologies like this really open up the possibilities. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Ortwin Regel ha scritto: If there will ever be a dedicated OpenMoko gaming device, it needs a multitouch screen. Well, yes I think it won't be possible to run games with an on-screen virtual gamepad as the iPhone/iPodTouch does. Do I am wrong? However, with a phone, even if it is a fully featured pocket computer, I can't think of many things where it would be useful, either. Zooming and rotating should be very doable with one finger and some thinking. In fact, much of this thinking was already done on this list months ago. I do agree, but for me these rotate and resize features imho aren't so needed as soon they're cool to see. Also using a touch-only screen they don't loose their usability: the resize, mostly, could be done simply with a scroll, while the rotation using the gimp-way (put a placeholder on the rotating fulcrum tapping, then use a finger dragging the image...). I can't find more things that really need a multi-touch screen, since I won't paint on it and I neither will do a collaborative work... :P Then I'd like to know more infos about *tapping* in Neo. I mean, in my notebooks with Synaptics touchpads I can easily use more than a finger to play some useful actions like: - Left clik with a finger tapping - Middle clik with two fingers tapping - Right clik with three fingers tapping - Vertical / Horizontal scroll with two fingers sliding [1] Well, are these features available on GTA02 too? In fact, if the answer would be "yes", we could easily use the multi-fingers tapping/scrolling features to control the phone in a more comfortable way (for example allowing "right-clicks" no more pressure-time based, or allowing operations on images like the ones I mentioned above). Bye Treviño [1] http://tinyurl.com/2sawey (iMac like) PS: That's so strange (and funny), today exactly few minutes before the topic was started I wandered about multi-touching in Neo and how it was used in iPhone, reading and looking much of resources... :P -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Federico ha scritto: So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? maybe pressing the shift key for typing uppercase letters :P Not so useful imho... We don't write so quickly on small-screen based devices to need a combination-input. For istance, the iPhone has not a such feature (its ultra-sensitive [bad] keyboard only takes a touch a time also for the shift key). -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
joerg ha scritto: I'm investigating to squeeze some multi-touch properties out of the GTA02 4wire-resistor touchscreen, by hacking the basics and probing the ts in a couple non-recommended completely different manners. There still is a little hope... What's your hope exactly? Do you have some "secrets" to share? :P However this is not meant to distract attention from discussion of a true multi-ts for GTA03. I think this should be a capacitive one. I do agree... -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
On 3/4/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi guys, > > I have thought a bit about multitouch and its possible usecases and the > longer > I think about it the less exciting I find it on a mobile phone. > > The technology per se is great and I'm sure it will allow for great > innovation > among UI's on large monitors, tablets, and even desks. > > However, on small screen systems such as the Neo (or even the iPhone) -- > what > do you want to do with it? The ubiquitous zooming and rotating examples are > not convincing me at all. With some clever state logic you can zoom and > rotate very efficient on unitouch systems. > > So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? > > :M: > If there will ever be a dedicated OpenMoko gaming device, it needs a multitouch screen. However, with a phone, even if it is a fully featured pocket computer, I can't think of many things where it would be useful, either. Zooming and rotating should be very doable with one finger and some thinking. In fact, much of this thinking was already done on this list months ago. When multitouch screens become cheap and easy to get, of course one should be included in every Openmoko device. For now it seems like a very low priority thing. We haven't even begun to explore the potential of a unitouch screen! I don't want much right clicking on my phone. However, if it ever becomes useful/necessary somewhere, you can always assign it to AUX+tap. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The ubiquitous zooming and rotating examples are not convincing me at all. They seem pretty cool to me. > So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? How do you right-click on a touchscreen? The old way has been to hold down the stylus for some timeout period. But with multitouch there are other alternatives. One will probably emerge as the standard. You might even be able to detect different fingers by the shape of the contact patch, so different fingers have different actions. I'd like to play with it, but right now my choices are: buy an iphone and hack it; or build my own FTIR table. Without even thinking about specific use cases though, isn't it clear that multitouch is the superior technology? If you add a new capability and allow developers to play with it, new uses will emerge which nobody has yet thought of. Besides it's more durable: it won't mechanically wear out like resistive touchscreens do, and the screen can be glass instead of scratchable plastic. Maybe even could be a mineral crystal like a good watch. Maybe you are just making excuses based on the fact that you think multitouch is unobtanium at this point? It has been discovered that the necessary chip is made by Broadcom, with the model number BCM5974. Funny thing is, when you google that you just find a zillion copies of the same blog by someone who disassembled the iPhone (and the Air) and discovered that; I haven't found anything on Broadcom's site. So I don't understand if Apple was able to coerce them into making it exclusive. I mean, Apple bought Fingerworks and thereby got the technology, right? Then what... they said well we don't have a fab, do we? so they made an agreement with Broadcom to manufacture the chips on the condition that they are not allowed to sell them to anyone else? (Just guessing) Well how long do you think that will last? Maybe the exclusivity expires after some period of time; and Broadcom knows that either they will find a way to sell to everyone, or the competition will catch up and do it for them. Soon we will see another supplier, because it's too hot to be ignored. (It's also a good question, who made the chips for Fingerworks.) In a couple years there will probably be chintzy LCD multi-touch wristwatches or something. By that point it will be uninteresting. But FIC ought to try to feel their way around this situation: chat up the sales guys and FAE's at Broadcom and find out if there's any way to buy this chip. It reputedly costs a mere $3. I agree, the next Neo needs this capability. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
On Tuesday 04 March 2008, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: > Hi guys, > > I have thought a bit about multitouch and its possible usecases and the > longer I think about it the less exciting I find it on a mobile phone. > > The technology per se is great and I'm sure it will allow for great > innovation among UI's on large monitors, tablets, and even desks. > > However, on small screen systems such as the Neo (or even the iPhone) -- > what do you want to do with it? The ubiquitous zooming and rotating > examples are not convincing me at all. With some clever state logic you can > zoom and rotate very efficient on unitouch systems. > > So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? Small screen systems aren't just phones, as Sean has mentioned for future OpenMoko devices. Some things need more than one channel of simultaneous input, so with unitouch systems you can't use virtual controls onscreen; you have to start adding physical controls, or suffer a limited application. Off the top of my head here are a couple: * Emulating a pair of analogue thumb controllers. I remember a text input method using simultaneous input from 2 8-way hat switches too. * Audio mixer - think portable DJ apps. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Federico wrote: So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? maybe pressing the shift key for typing uppercase letters :P Or other chording based text entry schemes... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
> So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? maybe pressing the shift key for typing uppercase letters :P ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Hi guys, I have thought a bit about multitouch and its possible usecases and the longer I think about it the less exciting I find it on a mobile phone. The technology per se is great and I'm sure it will allow for great innovation among UI's on large monitors, tablets, and even desks. However, on small screen systems such as the Neo (or even the iPhone) -- what do you want to do with it? The ubiquitous zooming and rotating examples are not convincing me at all. With some clever state logic you can zoom and rotate very efficient on unitouch systems. So... where are those usecases that apply to a phone? :M: ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
I think this is an interesting reading about iphone multi-touch screen: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/iphone1.htm 2008/3/4, joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Am Di 4. März 2008 schrieb Duvelle Jones: > > > I will > > admit that I was dissolution with the possibility that the multi-touch > > interface was an easy addition to OpenMoko. With some time to think and > > study the availability of the technology, I soon realized that my > > thinking on the matter was quite naive. > > > I'm investigating to squeeze some multi-touch properties out of the GTA02 > 4wire-resistor touchscreen, by hacking the basics and probing the ts in a > couple non-recommended completely different manners. There still is a > little > hope... > > However this is not meant to distract attention from discussion of a true > multi-ts for GTA03. I think this should be a capacitive one. > > > > jOERG > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Am Di 4. März 2008 schrieb Duvelle Jones: > I will > admit that I was dissolution with the possibility that the multi-touch > interface was an easy addition to OpenMoko. With some time to think and > study the availability of the technology, I soon realized that my > thinking on the matter was quite naive. I'm investigating to squeeze some multi-touch properties out of the GTA02 4wire-resistor touchscreen, by hacking the basics and probing the ts in a couple non-recommended completely different manners. There still is a little hope... However this is not meant to distract attention from discussion of a true multi-ts for GTA03. I think this should be a capacitive one. jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Multi-touch: Many questions to one desire....
Hi, tis me again. A little bit of forward thinking here. When I first came to OpenMoko it was a mid the torrent of the iPhone hype. I will admit that I was dissolution with the possibility that the multi-touch interface was an easy addition to OpenMoko. With some time to think and study the availability of the technology, I soon realized that my thinking on the matter was quite naive. Maybe I still am naive on the matter, but considering alot of the hard work to get GTA02 off the ground and running, I was thinking that if OpenMoko was considering the possibility of a multi-touch interface seriously maybe it is something that could be found on the next device afterwards (be it the GTA03 or something later). If that is the case, then such an input device will not appear out of thin air. At this point and time what would be realistic, would Openmoko Inc. form a partnership with supplier of the technology, does FIC Group happen to have something inhouse that could be utilized? What are the legal implications and potholes? Etc. Truth is that I love the concept behind the Openmoko phone. A phone that 'I' truly control, not my provider, not the manufacturer (not completely, anyway). A phone that grants me, 'freedom'. If anything, considering what is out there, I would like to more open-idea to establishing that sense of freedom so I only offer this chance to brain storm what else we can do to provide that. Here is hoping that I have not let the genie out of the bottle. Duv P.S.: I apologize in advance for the possibility of this discussion degrading into a flame-fest, that is not my intention. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch, screen size, and case shape.
On 7/24/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes I agree with all your points. I suspect the Apple patents are on the interaction techniques, and possibly on some specific hardware. Obviously multi-touch existed a few years ago (FingerWorks was around, and I think the FTIR method was invented even earlier). We will see how the lawsuits turn out, which patents Apple can defend and which they cannot. (Lawsuits would seem to be inevitable given the flurry of activity which the iPhone has provoked.) Multitouch screens are around so much time that apple can have patents just on their specific implementation. However some of the interactions which only involve one finger on the iPhone, should still be possible with a conventional touchscreen (for example, "flicking" to scroll a page). That's correct. A physically larger screen would be nice to read, and I personally would put up with the larger overall size (especially if it makes up for it by being thinner); but people have their stereotypes about how big a phone is "too big," and something larger than the iPhone will not sell as well. A good idea would be to use the so-much-talked-about-but-never-used e-paper: simply a small e-paper attached to the back of the phone, which can be rolled out to have a bigger screen. Some sort of medieval-pergament-sort of look. Wold be great IMO. The normal phone for normal applications, the e-paper for browsing, reading, whathing movies, etc. (If people could just get away from holding the whole thing up to their ears like a brick, it would help. Maybe use a bluetooth headset? but I don't use one myself either.) Headsets aren't always well-seen by people, so I would force them to use them. -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch, ...
> Obviously multi-touch existed a few years ago (FingerWorks was around Note that Apple *bought* FingerWorks for this technology, and presumably the associated patents. (I have some of the FingerWorks keyboards, they're a great technology on the gesturing side, but as an experienced touch-typist, they're *awful* as keyboards - I think the tech are much more suited to the iPhone than it ever was for "normal" keyboards, having tried both...) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-touch, screen size, and case shape.
Yes I agree with all your points. I suspect the Apple patents are on the interaction techniques, and possibly on some specific hardware. Obviously multi-touch existed a few years ago (FingerWorks was around, and I think the FTIR method was invented even earlier). We will see how the lawsuits turn out, which patents Apple can defend and which they cannot. (Lawsuits would seem to be inevitable given the flurry of activity which the iPhone has provoked.) However some of the interactions which only involve one finger on the iPhone, should still be possible with a conventional touchscreen (for example, "flicking" to scroll a page). A physically larger screen would be nice to read, and I personally would put up with the larger overall size (especially if it makes up for it by being thinner); but people have their stereotypes about how big a phone is "too big," and something larger than the iPhone will not sell as well. (If people could just get away from holding the whole thing up to their ears like a brick, it would help. Maybe use a bluetooth headset? but I don't use one myself either.) On 7/23/07, Cailan Halliday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: First off I wanted to see if anyone shares my opinion that a multi-touch screen is needed, if at all possible, to make the Neo truly revolutionary. It will both cut down on screen space used for UI and make for a more efficient and intuitive interface. It would even help beyond user input, it could "feel" itself being put into a pocket for instance and go into sleep mode or what ever other crazy ideas you can think of. It makes me wonder why there isn't as much enthusiasm around it as with the camera, which brings me to my next question: Is there some sort of patent issue here? I wouldn't think so, considering I've seen over 5 separate entities developing and using the technology. My next question, which really isn't a question; it's more like a comment, is: Why not a slightly larger screen size, I think right now it's on the verge of being too small. It would be fine if it were a simple phone with calendar, planar, and email, but this device is capable of web surfing and video which, in my opinion, warrents a larger screen size. Last queston/comment: Why so much wasted space. The case should be rectangular to optimize space with the rectangular screen. -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Additional: Re: Multi-touch, screen size, and case shape.
On 7/23/07, Cailan Halliday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I truly believe in this quote, I also found it on openmoko.com. Both multi-touch and a minimalist case truly supports this ideal: -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Ok, here's what's up: the phone body we're using was a device that was being designed by FIC for another customer. From traffic on this list, t seems that the deal with that other customer fell through. I'm guessing that one of the reasons FIC was willing to go through with the whole thing was to make SOMETHING from the investment they made from that other customer (It seemed like a lot of dev work had gone into the system already in November when this was first announced) yeah, with what this project has become, the hardware is sub-optimal. The goal now is to have enough of a positive response that someone wants to pick up the hardware development costs for the second generation device (or maybe that's why openmoko is now its own company). Anyways, it's about 6 months past the time to make such major changes, we've got to either make the current device work for us, and a whole lot of other people, or we've got to peg our hopes on the next device. Personally, I'm of the make it work camp, and I think with the team Sean's put together (dude, harald, if there's anything I can do to help, let me know) and the community we've got, we can make it happen -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Additional: Re: Multi-touch, screen size, and case shape.
I truly believe in this quote, I also found it on openmoko.com. Both multi-touch and a minimalist case truly supports this ideal: "The most profound technologies are those that disappear. They weave themselves into the fabric of everyday life until they are indistinguishable from it." Mark Weiser -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Multi-touch, screen size, and case shape.
First off I wanted to see if anyone shares my opinion that a multi-touch screen is needed, if at all possible, to make the Neo truly revolutionary. It will both cut down on screen space used for UI and make for a more efficient and intuitive interface. It would even help beyond user input, it could "feel" itself being put into a pocket for instance and go into sleep mode or what ever other crazy ideas you can think of. It makes me wonder why there isn't as much enthusiasm around it as with the camera, which brings me to my next question: Is there some sort of patent issue here? I wouldn't think so, considering I've seen over 5 separate entities developing and using the technology. My next question, which really isn't a question; it's more like a comment, is: Why not a slightly larger screen size, I think right now it's on the verge of being too small. It would be fine if it were a simple phone with calendar, planar, and email, but this device is capable of web surfing and video which, in my opinion, warrents a larger screen size. Last queston/comment: Why so much wasted space. The case should be rectangular to optimize space with the rectangular screen. -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stylus, the iPhone, and multi touch screens
Cailan Halliday wrote: I personally don't like the idea of using a stylus, or rather, needing one, but I've read that there will be certain tasks/apps that will have a UI designed for a stylus. I saw a video of the iPhone in operation and all tasks were easily performed with the fingers. Does the multi-touch screen make this easier somehow? Also what exactly is multi-touch and is it near the top of the hardware addition list? -Cailan Multi touch is the ability for the screen to recognize two places touched at the same time. Normal (single) touch screens will either not recognize a touch when you touch in two places or might get the average in the middle. Just my limited non technical understanding of it Eric ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stylus, the iPhone, and multi touch screens
Imho the system with pen- and hand-based applications is the most useful one. I own a TomTom 5xx-Series, I used TomTom on my Nokia 7710 (only-touchscreen-phone) and I know that it is easy to use without a stylus. TomTom has a good interface, but the sort of software (navigation) needs relatively less input, so a stylus is not needed. But it's something else with office software, terminal-emulation, and what else you might use the Neo or other OpenMoko-phones in future. This sort of software cannot be used without a stylus effective. Also graphics software which needs very exact input also needs a stylus (well, call me crazy, but I used the graphics software, which is similar to windows' paint, on my 7710 for making outlines and other drawings). There will be sooo much software in future and there will be so less software which can be used by only having the fingers. 2007/6/28, Fabien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On 6/28/07, Cailan Halliday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Does the multi-touch screen make this easier somehow? It might help a bit in corner cases, but what really makes or breaks it is a proper, global thinking of the user experience (which is generally not the same, and even sometimes directly opposed to GFX effects). It requires a lot of experiments, an ability to empathize with non-developers... many abilities considered non-technicals and boring by most hackers, unfortunately. This is *the* skill on which Apple built most of its successes, and something open source software tends to have a hard time getting right. However, user experience is especially important for a phone, so maybe openmoko will experience some great improvements over other OSS projects? IMO, the best thing technical people can do for openmoko is making it easy to script/extend/modify by moderately tech-savvy people: since hardcore hackers suck at building usable UIs, the best they can do is offering to new, different talents the opportunity to get it right. Or at least better. I'd bet on Lua (www.lua.org), because it's tiny, powerful, easy to embed, designed for easy interfacing with C and C++, and has a very gentle learning curve if you don't use advanced features. Let's provide bindings for UI bricks, phone features, and you're set. Look at http://www.lua.org/wshop05/Hamburg.pdf for integration with a multitask, non-trivial C/C++ libraries set (that's the debriefing of the of adobe photoshop lightroom's implementation, in lua), or http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2004-04/msg00164.html about non-developers easily getting hands-down with Lua (here, XBox level designers). I work for a wireless embedded devices builder, and you can't even imagine the kind of productivity boost Lua provides. Attempts with Python or Smalltalk never brought that kind of power (and Scheme scares everybody). Don't forget that easily upgradeable firmwares are not so common on phones, and phone builders don't want to modify the UI of shipped products. That means they don't have the best user feedbacks possible, whereas that's something openmoko will get. Up to us to exploit it efficiently, instead of focusing on skins and other mostly useless glitter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stylus, the iPhone, and multi touch screens
On 6/28/07, Cailan Halliday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Does the multi-touch screen make this easier somehow? It might help a bit in corner cases, but what really makes or breaks it is a proper, global thinking of the user experience (which is generally not the same, and even sometimes directly opposed to GFX effects). It requires a lot of experiments, an ability to empathize with non-developers... many abilities considered non-technicals and boring by most hackers, unfortunately. This is *the* skill on which Apple built most of its successes, and something open source software tends to have a hard time getting right. However, user experience is especially important for a phone, so maybe openmoko will experience some great improvements over other OSS projects? IMO, the best thing technical people can do for openmoko is making it easy to script/extend/modify by moderately tech-savvy people: since hardcore hackers suck at building usable UIs, the best they can do is offering to new, different talents the opportunity to get it right. Or at least better. I'd bet on Lua (www.lua.org), because it's tiny, powerful, easy to embed, designed for easy interfacing with C and C++, and has a very gentle learning curve if you don't use advanced features. Let's provide bindings for UI bricks, phone features, and you're set. Look at http://www.lua.org/wshop05/Hamburg.pdf for integration with a multitask, non-trivial C/C++ libraries set (that's the debriefing of the of adobe photoshop lightroom's implementation, in lua), or http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2004-04/msg00164.html about non-developers easily getting hands-down with Lua (here, XBox level designers). I work for a wireless embedded devices builder, and you can't even imagine the kind of productivity boost Lua provides. Attempts with Python or Smalltalk never brought that kind of power (and Scheme scares everybody). Don't forget that easily upgradeable firmwares are not so common on phones, and phone builders don't want to modify the UI of shipped products. That means they don't have the best user feedbacks possible, whereas that's something openmoko will get. Up to us to exploit it efficiently, instead of focusing on skins and other mostly useless glitter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Stylus, the iPhone, and multi touch screens
TomTom on the Windows Mobile platform is a good example of an interface that doesn't need a stylus since it's supposed to be usable in a car as well. Make the buttons big enough and you're good to go. Going stylus-free is more about how you structure the UI rather than any technical issues. Marcus -Original Message- From: Cailan Halliday [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 June 2007 05:41 To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Stylus, the iPhone, and multi touch screens I personally don't like the idea of using a stylus, or rather, needing one, but I've read that there will be certain tasks/apps that will have a UI designed for a stylus. I saw a video of the iPhone in operation and all tasks were easily performed with the fingers. Does the multi-touch screen make this easier somehow? Also what exactly is multi-touch and is it near the top of the hardware addition list? -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Stylus, the iPhone, and multi touch screens
I personally don't like the idea of using a stylus, or rather, needing one, but I've read that there will be certain tasks/apps that will have a UI designed for a stylus. I saw a video of the iPhone in operation and all tasks were easily performed with the fingers. Does the multi-touch screen make this easier somehow? Also what exactly is multi-touch and is it near the top of the hardware addition list? -Cailan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, ground control picked up the following transmission from Florent THIERY: > > Tapping two fingers on and off on my Mac laptop (old G4 model) I > > can see behavior that matches this, although the pointer algorithm > > it uses is trying to figure out a single point. > > > > So we will not see clearly defined bounding box limits. The point > > will skate around within the limits depending on relative pressure. > > > > The first finger will set a clear start point, the second finger > > will make that point shoot off towards it, but it will not go all > > the way to the second touch. The effect should be to oscillate > > along the line between the two end points, and it wont return to > > the position of the first touch. > > On my own touchpad (thinkpad), it's almost the same, except that if i > release the 1st finger, the cursor goes to the effective 2nd finger > position. And i'd add that the oscillation is pretty steady on mine: > almost none. If you are using a capacitive touchpad on that Mac or ThinkPad, the behavior can NOT be used to infer anything about the behavior of a resistive touchpad. The data used to compute the finger position, and the algorithms that operate on that data are completely different between resistive and capacitive touch solutions. > Which gives us 2 sure elements: > * the pointer won't come OUT of this box > * the displacement speed from point 1 (single finger) to point 2 is > constant, and hopefully will be detectable It is not safe to assume that these are "sure elements". These two behaviors depend on where the two fingers are, and which finger location algorithm the touchpad uses, and which capacitive sensing technology the touchpad uses. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
mathew davis wrote: * The output is the center of the bounding box of the touched area * The touch point skips instantly on double touch * Pressure has almost no effect on a single touch, but not so on a double touch. The relative pressures will cause a significant skewing effect towards the harder touch. You can easily move the pointer along the line between your two fingers by changing the relative pressure. So my question now is do we have access to the bounding box? If we can get at the coordinates of the bounding box can we not figure out if the bounding box is shrinking or growing? The iphone has a camera which Ok - I wrote the above, and it could do with some clarification. The 'center of the bounding box' is the only thing the current hardware has access to. It is 'computed' solely in the resistances of the touchscreen, not externally. Pressing harder with one finger than the other, or pressing over a larger area gives a (possibly slightly, possibly greatly, depending on design) skew towards the area with the higher contact pressure * area. (And it may not be as simple as contact pressure*area, it probably hits a limit at a small pressure) When measuring the touch position this is basically what is done. The screen is composed of two resistive layers, one flexible plastic, one glass, with linear electrodes on the X or Y axes (parallel electrodes on the same layer). Connect X+ and X- to battery + and -. This now creates a voltage gradient vertically across the screen - say 0V at the bottom, and 1V at the top. Now, when someone presses the screen at a point, this is connected to the 'Y' electrodes, and the voltage (say 0.5V) can be read out and converted into 'X=320'. (repeat for Y+ Y- and an X for other axes) If the screen is pressed over multiple points, or areas, it's a little more complex. You have now current flowing in addition to through the X layer, flowing parallel to the X layer, through the Y layer - this will distort the nice smooth gradient, and make it so that instead of rising smoothly from 0 to 1V as you go up the display, it rises half as steeply over the touched area. This assumes that the contact resistance is zero though, and it's not. As the resistance at a touch point drops, the sensed point moves towards that point, A not-terrible mechanical analogy is to take a hacksaw blade, and put it on a towel. pressing (gently) on it on it at several points will (usually) make only one point furthest down. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
I personally like the configuration of my synaptics touch pad. I have left, middle, and right clicks (1, 2, and 3 finger tapping, respectively), and I can also use the right and bottom edges for vertical and horizontal scrolling. However, keep in mind that touch *screens* are very different in design than touch *pads*. With a touch screen, the cursor moves to the coordinates of the pressure. With a touch pad, the cursor does not move based solely on pressure being applied. Instead, touch pads track the motion of the pressure point and move the cursor in the appropriate direction and speed. Mixing and matching the capabilities of these may be more difficult than we think, not just from a hardware/driver point of view, but also in user-friendliness. ~Bradley Florent THIERY wrote: > Last post, promise :) > > I found this: > > http://iscroll2.sourceforge.net/ > > iScroll2 is a modified trackpad driver that adds two-finger scrolling > capabilities to supported pre-2005 PowerBooks and iBooks on OS X 10.3 and > up. > > To scroll, just place two fingers on your trackpad instead of one. Both > fingers need to be placed next to each other horizontally (*not* > vertically, > the trackpad cannot detect that). Some people get better results with their > finger spaced a little bit apart, while others prefer having the fingers > right next to each other. > > iScroll2 provides two *scrolling modes*: Linear and circular scrolling. > > For *linear scrolling*, move the two fingers up/down or left/right in a > straight line, respectively, to scroll in that direction. > > *Circular scrolling* works in a way similar to the iPod's scroll wheel: > Move > the two fingers in a circle to scroll up or down, depending on whether you > move in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. > Added here: > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/UI_Improvements#Extending_the_touchscreen_capabilities_and_input_methods > > > > Cheers > > And good night > > Florent > > > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
Last post, promise :) I found this: http://iscroll2.sourceforge.net/ iScroll2 is a modified trackpad driver that adds two-finger scrolling capabilities to supported pre-2005 PowerBooks and iBooks on OS X 10.3 and up. To scroll, just place two fingers on your trackpad instead of one. Both fingers need to be placed next to each other horizontally (*not* vertically, the trackpad cannot detect that). Some people get better results with their finger spaced a little bit apart, while others prefer having the fingers right next to each other. iScroll2 provides two *scrolling modes*: Linear and circular scrolling. For *linear scrolling*, move the two fingers up/down or left/right in a straight line, respectively, to scroll in that direction. *Circular scrolling* works in a way similar to the iPod's scroll wheel: Move the two fingers in a circle to scroll up or down, depending on whether you move in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. Added here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/UI_Improvements#Extending_the_touchscreen_capabilities_and_input_methods Cheers And good night Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
Mockups done (ugly, but gives an idea) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/UI_Improvements#Handgesture_recognition_proposal In fact, we may not even need the "fake multi touch" thing, if we define a "finger-mode" zone. Just put your first finger on the wheel, and the second one has handgesture enabled... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
Yy ! We may have found something that's 100% compatible with the fingerwheel. Let's do it this way: - this socalled "first touch" can be done on the mokowheel itself: put your left thumb on the black area; there you enter "fake multitouchscreen mode" - keeping this finger in the black circle, touch another place of the screen : the cursor moves (not instantly if what we guessed is true) at a *constant* speed; or it "warps", if it's implementation-dependant (is suspect the low level driver to report point A -> point B as a jump) - if we can calculate the speed of the cursor every moment, we can identify a "down left"+second finger; either way we can detect warping - afterwards, * slide your righthand finger down, it scrolls up * slide your righthand finger up, it scrolls down * slide it left, next page/item * slide it right, previous page/item * do a circle: rotation * narrow towards the black circle: zoom - * go away: zoom + - when you leave the black circle, it's out of finger operational mode What's really great about it, is when you're looking at a map, you can rotate and zoom at the same time. The ownly downside is that we MUST use both hands (or put the device on a table) I'm gonna do mockups... Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
On 4/3/07, mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To test this, we could capture and share some raw (time,x,y) event > streams from a touch screen, and try processing them offline. Then we > don't need actual hardware (a spreadsheet is may even be good enough) > to figure out algorithms. I agree I think this would be very benificial. This would give us a little more to chew on then speculation. Then we could use numbers instead of ambigious scenarious. Do you have some raw (time,x,y) event stream data? I would be very interested in looking at it. If not then who would have it? Or I guess I should say who would be willing to do that? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
Salve adrian,*! *very* interesting thoughts... :) On Tue, 03 Apr 2007, adrian cockcroft wrote: > Two more thoughts... > > If you hold down one finger and tap the other one, the mouse pops over > and back again. When you move this second finger the mouse/curser pops over and move like your second finger. So the second finger can do something like rotating around the first, or encrease or lower the distance to the first = rotating and zoom for a map? Jumping back is not very accurate, but when we have a special driver, it could jump back to the x,y coordinates of the first finger. > We may be able to set the sensitivity and sampling rate much higher > than normal to support a more advanced algorithm. Whats about doing a "virtual" calibration when on finger is on the touchscreen? When changing of the touchscreen data is very small (to this calibrated state) then discard the "virtual" state - when the changing is over some level, then work with the virtual one with positioning the second finger. But when I move also my first finger (at my laptop touchpad) there is no poping back So it will no real multitouch - first finger position has to be handelt as fix - or? Other idea would be that a double touch on one position (p1) followed by a single touch on a different place p2 with a minimum distance from p1 inbeween e.g. 1 second, will handel p1 as fixpoint. Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
Two more thoughts... If you hold down one finger and tap the other one, the mouse pops over and back again. This could be a way to set a bounding box or turn on the mode. We may be able to set the sensitivity and sampling rate much higher than normal to support a more advanced algorithm. To test this, we could capture and share some raw (time,x,y) event streams from a touch screen, and try processing them offline. Then we don't need actual hardware (a spreadsheet is may even be good enough) to figure out algorithms. Adrian On 4/3/07, mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 4/3/07, adrian cockcroft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is key:- "Pressure has almost no effect on a single touch, but > not so on a double touch. The relative pressures will cause a > significant skewing effect towards the harder touch. You can easily > move the pointer along the line between your two fingers by changing > the relative pressure." > So we will not see clearly defined bounding box limits. The point will > skate around within the limits depending on relative pressure. So I guess we need someone with a device to test this and see how much pressure actually affects the neo touch screen. With that information I think we could see how easy it would be to get an average bounding box approximation.. > The first finger will set a clear start point, the second finger will > make that point shoot off towards it, but it will not go all the way > to the second touch. The effect should be to oscillate along the line > between the two end points, and it wont return to the position of the > first touch. > > If we capture a clear single touch, and an average position of > oscillation, then we can take the average oscillation to be the center > of the bounding box, and project an estimate of the opposite corner > where the second touch should be. With the right filtering and > limiting algorithm it should be possible to get the effect we want. If > we can give visual feedback on the screen showing the touch points and > bounding box it may help the user control the input better. Ok so what if this feature was disabled by default. Since enabling it might slow some functionality. When the user enables the feature he/she will have to go through a config which does a calibration. The user runs through several scenarios where the program can gather the relative pressure difference in known circumstance with the desired result known as well. It could then store that information in a database based on which user is using it, if there are multi users, if not just store it in a config file. > Challenges: In comparison with a true dual touch input device, its > going to react more slowly as the algorithm will need to gather more > data to decide where the pointer should be. Some of the faster moving > single touch gestures may be hard to distinguish from multi touch. > > Adrian I agree, but it would still be a nice feature to have and I could deal with a little lag for added feature especially if I could enable it or disable it. With the single touch fast gestures we could set that up inside of the calibration also. That way if it thinks it's multi touch it compares it with it's database which links it to the single touch fast gesture instead. It would be slow but you could disable the multi touch option and then single gestures would be fast again. Or we could have the multi touch be enabled in certain programs like web browsing or picture viewing, and disabled for the rest. But I think a simple button in the header or footer should work alright. You could have it turn green when active and red when deactivated. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
On 4/3/07, adrian cockcroft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This is key:- "Pressure has almost no effect on a single touch, but not so on a double touch. The relative pressures will cause a significant skewing effect towards the harder touch. You can easily move the pointer along the line between your two fingers by changing the relative pressure." So we will not see clearly defined bounding box limits. The point will skate around within the limits depending on relative pressure. So I guess we need someone with a device to test this and see how much pressure actually affects the neo touch screen. With that information I think we could see how easy it would be to get an average bounding box approximation.. The first finger will set a clear start point, the second finger will make that point shoot off towards it, but it will not go all the way to the second touch. The effect should be to oscillate along the line between the two end points, and it wont return to the position of the first touch. If we capture a clear single touch, and an average position of oscillation, then we can take the average oscillation to be the center of the bounding box, and project an estimate of the opposite corner where the second touch should be. With the right filtering and limiting algorithm it should be possible to get the effect we want. If we can give visual feedback on the screen showing the touch points and bounding box it may help the user control the input better. Ok so what if this feature was disabled by default. Since enabling it might slow some functionality. When the user enables the feature he/she will have to go through a config which does a calibration. The user runs through several scenarios where the program can gather the relative pressure difference in known circumstance with the desired result known as well. It could then store that information in a database based on which user is using it, if there are multi users, if not just store it in a config file. Challenges: In comparison with a true dual touch input device, its going to react more slowly as the algorithm will need to gather more data to decide where the pointer should be. Some of the faster moving single touch gestures may be hard to distinguish from multi touch. Adrian I agree, but it would still be a nice feature to have and I could deal with a little lag for added feature especially if I could enable it or disable it. With the single touch fast gestures we could set that up inside of the calibration also. That way if it thinks it's multi touch it compares it with it's database which links it to the single touch fast gesture instead. It would be slow but you could disable the multi touch option and then single gestures would be fast again. Or we could have the multi touch be enabled in certain programs like web browsing or picture viewing, and disabled for the rest. But I think a simple button in the header or footer should work alright. You could have it turn green when active and red when deactivated. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
Tapping two fingers on and off on my Mac laptop (old G4 model) I can see behavior that matches this, although the pointer algorithm it uses is trying to figure out a single point. So we will not see clearly defined bounding box limits. The point will skate around within the limits depending on relative pressure. The first finger will set a clear start point, the second finger will make that point shoot off towards it, but it will not go all the way to the second touch. The effect should be to oscillate along the line between the two end points, and it wont return to the position of the first touch. On my own touchpad (thinkpad), it's almost the same, except that if i release the 1st finger, the cursor goes to the effective 2nd finger position. And i'd add that the oscillation is pretty steady on mine: almost none. Which gives us 2 sure elements: * the pointer won't come OUT of this box * the displacement speed from point 1 (single finger) to point 2 is constant, and hopefully will be detectable If we capture a clear single touch, and an average position of oscillation, then we can take the average oscillation to be the center of the bounding box, and project an estimate of the opposite corner where the second touch should be. With the right filtering and limiting algorithm it should be possible to get the effect we want. Challenges: In comparison with a true dual touch input device, its going to react more slowly as the algorithm will need to gather more data to decide where the pointer should be. Some of the faster moving single touch gestures may be hard to distinguish from multi touch. You're totally right. What about adding this to the touchscreen section in the wiki UI_Improvements ? ;) Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
This is key:- "Pressure has almost no effect on a single touch, but not so on a double touch. The relative pressures will cause a significant skewing effect towards the harder touch. You can easily move the pointer along the line between your two fingers by changing the relative pressure." Tapping two fingers on and off on my Mac laptop (old G4 model) I can see behavior that matches this, although the pointer algorithm it uses is trying to figure out a single point. So we will not see clearly defined bounding box limits. The point will skate around within the limits depending on relative pressure. The first finger will set a clear start point, the second finger will make that point shoot off towards it, but it will not go all the way to the second touch. The effect should be to oscillate along the line between the two end points, and it wont return to the position of the first touch. If we capture a clear single touch, and an average position of oscillation, then we can take the average oscillation to be the center of the bounding box, and project an estimate of the opposite corner where the second touch should be. With the right filtering and limiting algorithm it should be possible to get the effect we want. If we can give visual feedback on the screen showing the touch points and bounding box it may help the user control the input better. Challenges: In comparison with a true dual touch input device, its going to react more slowly as the algorithm will need to gather more data to decide where the pointer should be. Some of the faster moving single touch gestures may be hard to distinguish from multi touch. Adrian On 4/3/07, Florent THIERY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >With that being said I have been thinking about > multi-touch lately and after some things on the wiki page > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/UI_Improvements I noticed > that is mentioned the zoom feature of the iphone. as an example. The aim of the question is to discover how a monotouch screen behaves when you try to use it as multi touch: is it determinist, or erratical? If somebody could try reproducing various "strange" usages of the screen and report any deterministic/detectable behaviour, we might find ourselves additional input methods based on "guess hacks". For instance, i think we can use cursor jumps as inputs; example: P**+ * 2 * ** * 1* - **N Zoom + P **+ * 1 * * * *2 * - **N Next page/item It would be some timing-based detection, like non-linear handgesture recognition, done with 1 or 2 fingers. We have to: 1- experiment the touchscreen with all imaginable gestures (ex: 2 finger sliding, ...) 2- select the interesting behaviours 3- evaluate their determinism, eventually low level hacks on the kernel module 4- integrate them into openmoko finger-based controls > So my question now is do we have access to the bounding box? If we can get > at the coordinates of the bounding box can we not figure out if the bounding > box is shrinking or growing? Yes, that is an open question :) > Also if we have > access to the bounding box we could with some practice figure out when users > are trying to rotate an image. Indeed: if the "bounding box" is accurate, what if: - you narrow the 2 fingers? <- zoom - rotate the box? < rotation / linear map rotation - 2 parallel fingers (horizontal) sliding down = flat bounding box (almost a line) = scrolling down ... But, i'm not sure i understood what a bouncing box is: if all of this was true, then the touchscreen would report 2 points / an area... It would be great if people having access to hardware could try doing some detailed testing / reporting. But, it can wait until the next shipping phase is over :) > the > high resolution of the neo this should help a great deal. Well, even with high resolution, our eyes don't have better zooming :) Especially on mobility situation... >. You press the zoom button then click an area to enlarge. Just > curious how difficult would this be? Well, it's quite easily doable if the webbrowser / image displayer implements zooming ! > looking at the iphone and it doesn't seem to be very multi touch but as it > has not come out I could be wrong. It seems to only be able to accept 2 > simultaneous inputs. Hey, that's just what's needed :) How many free space do you have on such a screen? Ciao Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Multi-Touch
With that being said I have been thinking about multi-touch lately and after some things on the wiki page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/UI_Improvements I noticed that is mentioned the zoom feature of the iphone. as an example. The aim of the question is to discover how a monotouch screen behaves when you try to use it as multi touch: is it determinist, or erratical? If somebody could try reproducing various "strange" usages of the screen and report any deterministic/detectable behaviour, we might find ourselves additional input methods based on "guess hacks". For instance, i think we can use cursor jumps as inputs; example: P**+ * 2 * ** * 1* - **N Zoom + P **+ * 1 * * * *2 * - **N Next page/item It would be some timing-based detection, like non-linear handgesture recognition, done with 1 or 2 fingers. We have to: 1- experiment the touchscreen with all imaginable gestures (ex: 2 finger sliding, ...) 2- select the interesting behaviours 3- evaluate their determinism, eventually low level hacks on the kernel module 4- integrate them into openmoko finger-based controls So my question now is do we have access to the bounding box? If we can get at the coordinates of the bounding box can we not figure out if the bounding box is shrinking or growing? Yes, that is an open question :) Also if we have access to the bounding box we could with some practice figure out when users are trying to rotate an image. Indeed: if the "bounding box" is accurate, what if: - you narrow the 2 fingers? <- zoom - rotate the box? < rotation / linear map rotation - 2 parallel fingers (horizontal) sliding down = flat bounding box (almost a line) = scrolling down ... But, i'm not sure i understood what a bouncing box is: if all of this was true, then the touchscreen would report 2 points / an area... It would be great if people having access to hardware could try doing some detailed testing / reporting. But, it can wait until the next shipping phase is over :) the high resolution of the neo this should help a great deal. Well, even with high resolution, our eyes don't have better zooming :) Especially on mobility situation... . You press the zoom button then click an area to enlarge. Just curious how difficult would this be? Well, it's quite easily doable if the webbrowser / image displayer implements zooming ! looking at the iphone and it doesn't seem to be very multi touch but as it has not come out I could be wrong. It seems to only be able to accept 2 simultaneous inputs. Hey, that's just what's needed :) How many free space do you have on such a screen? Ciao Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Multi-Touch
Hello everyone I would just like to start off by saying I have enjoyed very much the conversations that go on inside this mailing list. I have learned a lot more by trying to research answers and solve problems then I ever thought I would. With that being said I have been thinking about multi-touch lately and after some things on the wiki page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/UI_Improvements I noticed that is mentioned the zoom feature of the iphone. it stated that Question: What exactly does the touchscreen see when you touch the screen with 2 fingers at the same time, when you move them, when you move only one of the 2, etc. I'm also interested in knowing how precise the touchscreen is (ex: refresh rate, possible pressure indication, ...)? Answer: - The output is the center of the bounding box of the touched area - The touch point skips instantly on double touch - Pressure has almost no effect on a single touch, but not so on a double touch. The relative pressures will cause a significant skewing effect towards the harder touch. You can easily move the pointer along the line between your two fingers by changing the relative pressure. So my question now is do we have access to the bounding box? If we can get at the coordinates of the bounding box can we not figure out if the bounding box is shrinking or growing? The iphone has a camera which makes the zoom feature more attractive as you can zoom in on pictures you have taken with the phone. But with the better screen resolution on the neo I would still like to be able to manipulate pictures I have on my neo. Also if we have access to the bounding box we could with some practice figure out when users are trying to rotate an image. This could also be very useful with web browsing. With the iphone you can view the entire website as if on a normal computer then zoom in of places you want to read. I think this would be a great feature on the neo. I wouldn't have the first clue how difficult that would really be as I am sure it would be quite encompassing but with the high resolution of the neo this should help a great deal. And even if we couldn't get multi touch working a zoom feature in the browser would still be helpful. You press the zoom button then click an area to enlarge. Just curious how difficult would this be? Any way I have just been kind of looking at the iphone and it doesn't seem to be very multi touch but as it has not come out I could be wrong. It seems to only be able to accept 2 simultaneous inputs. If we had access to the bounding boxes created when two fingers touch the touch screen the I believe we could simulate multi-touch. I don't know how responsive this would be to the user either maybe someone could answer that? So I am just curious if this is possible in some degree or not? Thanks, Matt ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Multi Touch screen demonstration video
Had to dig through a month of sent mail to find this: interesting demonstration of multi-touch screen manipulations. I have another similar one, but it's even further into the pile "Jeff Han is a research scientist for New York University's Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences. Here, he demonstrates-for the first time publicly-his intuitive, "interface-free," touch-driven computer screen, which can be manipulated intuitively with the fingertips, and responds to varying levels of pressure. (Recorded February 2006 in Monterey, CA. Duration: 09:32)" (notice: includes embedded video) http://ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han&flashEnabled=1 Sam Kome <http://www.motricity.com/> User Experience Team Member <http://www.motricity.com/> www.motricity.com <http://www.motricity.com> view corporate video <http://corp.motricity.com/press/video.php> NOTICE: This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information of Motricity. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. image001.gif Description: image001.gif ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
If the iPhone isn't a smartphone and it isn't an ordinary phone, does that make it a stupidphone? An insolent phone? Certainly some wise wordsmith here has a catchy way of phrasing this. I look forward to voting with my dollars and buying an open phone like the Neo. When is it going to ship? Still January sometime? --Lee On 1/10/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 09:41 +0100, Sven Neuhaus wrote: > Leira Hua wrote: > > when i saw it, i said: WOW, isn't it an OSX powered Neo? > > > > http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-apple-iphone/ > > http://www.apple.com/iphone > > It's hot.. *but* apparently it has no handwriting recognition and it isn't > really a smartphone (see > http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/73213967/ ), because you > can't upload new applications to it. Quite the opposite of the Neo, despite > the similar appearance. What a difference a bit of software makes... > > Speaking about handwriting recognition software, will Neo ship with any? > Are there any free solutions available? Yeah, that apple iphone is locked down! It uses apple ipod dock connector, can't be upgraded, can't remove the battery, is locked into apple DRM, etc...blah... The openmoko project has a major opening here and vital that people publish about this lock-down on their blogs, etc. Jon > -Sven > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
On Wednesday 10 January 2007 12:33, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > Apple Germany has said they use an Intel processor - but on the other > hand, Intel has sold all Xscale and Mobile phone chips to Marvell > last summer... http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9189781557.html IMBWOTO, not exactly ALL Xscale and Mobile chips, just the PXA family, but its true that PXA-s would be the number one candidate based on Apples history, or a very specific IXP (less likely), which still wears the Intel name. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
Am 10.01.2007 um 12:20 schrieb Ben: On 1/10/07, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And it appears that the OS is only called OSX and looks like it. Nothing is known so far about CPU, RAM and SDKs (Xcode + IB???). It uses "High Technology", what more do you need to know? http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/ Not highest ? :-) Well, the latest info cited by a German Business magazine (http:// www.manager-magazin.de/it/artikel/0,2828,458796,00.html) is that Apple Germany has said they use an Intel processor - but on the other hand, Intel has sold all Xscale and Mobile phone chips to Marvell last summer... http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9189781557.html What are they using? A new, unannounced Intel processor? A lowest power x86? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
On 1/10/07, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And it appears that the OS is only called OSX and looks like it. Nothing is known so far about CPU, RAM and SDKs (Xcode + IB???). It uses "High Technology", what more do you need to know? http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
Am 10.01.2007 um 11:13 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Von: Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Datum: 10. Januar 2007 10:13:57 MEZ An: Sven Neuhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: community@lists.openmoko.org Betreff: Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 09:41 +0100, Sven Neuhaus wrote: Leira Hua wrote: when i saw it, i said: WOW, isn't it an OSX powered Neo? http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-apple-iphone/ http://www.apple.com/iphone It's hot.. *but* apparently it has no handwriting recognition and it isn't really a smartphone (see http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/73213967/ ), because you can't upload new applications to it. Quite the opposite of the Neo, despite the similar appearance. What a difference a bit of software makes... Speaking about handwriting recognition software, will Neo ship with any? Are there any free solutions available? Yeah, that apple iphone is locked down! It uses apple ipod dock connector, can't be upgraded, can't remove the battery, is locked into apple DRM, etc...blah... And it appears that the OS is only called OSX and looks like it. Nothing is known so far about CPU, RAM and SDKs (Xcode + IB???). The openmoko project has a major opening here and vital that people publish about this lock-down on their blogs, etc. That is the reason why I am eagerly waiting to get one of the developer devices to port mySTEP/QuantumSTEP - which is the "Open-i-Phone" or OSX Lite platform approach you and many others are looking for... Please refer to my posting at discuss.gnustep.org: http://groups.google.de/group/gnu.gnustep.discuss/browse_frm/thread/ 878ef020e0112bdd/768916367e12c643?hl=de#768916367e12c643 Nikolaus Schaller www.quantum-step.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 09:41 +0100, Sven Neuhaus wrote: > Leira Hua wrote: > > when i saw it, i said: WOW, isn't it an OSX powered Neo? > > > > http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-apple-iphone/ > > http://www.apple.com/iphone > > It's hot.. *but* apparently it has no handwriting recognition and it isn't > really a smartphone (see > http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/73213967/ ), because you > can't upload new applications to it. Quite the opposite of the Neo, despite > the similar appearance. What a difference a bit of software makes... > > Speaking about handwriting recognition software, will Neo ship with any? > Are there any free solutions available? Yeah, that apple iphone is locked down! It uses apple ipod dock connector, can't be upgraded, can't remove the battery, is locked into apple DRM, etc...blah... The openmoko project has a major opening here and vital that people publish about this lock-down on their blogs, etc. Jon > -Sven > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
Leira Hua wrote: > when i saw it, i said: WOW, isn't it an OSX powered Neo? > > http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-apple-iphone/ > http://www.apple.com/iphone It's hot.. *but* apparently it has no handwriting recognition and it isn't really a smartphone (see http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/73213967/ ), because you can't upload new applications to it. Quite the opposite of the Neo, despite the similar appearance. What a difference a bit of software makes... Speaking about handwriting recognition software, will Neo ship with any? Are there any free solutions available? -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Finally, iPhone annoused, also with multi-touch screen
when i saw it, i said: WOW, isn't it an OSX powered Neo? http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-apple-iphone/ http://www.apple.com/iphone -- Leira Hua http://my.opera.com/Leira ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
painting with multi-touch :))) Re: (text/number/info/notes) input with power of multi-touch :)))) Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized
Salve Sean! Sean Moss-Pultz schrieb am Dienstag, den 05. Dezember 2006 um 23:07h: > On 12/5/06 10:04 PM, "Robert Michel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > So please go ahead with your concept :) > > Single finger import is important, too ;)) > > > > But I wanted to remind that beside single touch concept, > > real *new* concepts (without patent protections) could be > > possible - and this concpets could suport real fast > > key import that you don't have the need for a external > > querty keyboard : > > I've been meaning to comment on this for almost a week now, but I've just > been too consumed in other things. I'm in Japan now so I have a bit more > time (less meetings each day ;-). A Japan - this remember me my idea of paint-brush (not only for chinese/japanese key paintings) Use different hardware brushs (these that you are normaly use for painting) to paint on a multi-touch sensor display - and use virtual color pots and a virtual palette to mix them and you could draw aquarells, acryl or other paintings. For painting with color pens, coloured crayon or (carbon) pencil different hardware dummies could work. So handwriting on a touchscreen would become to have a wide of the writingline - it would looks naturaly. Write and paint your girlfind a coloured handwriten message with painings instead of a sterile text message : Together with the multi-colour-multi-touch sensor the pen-dummies could have different spikes (narrow wide used round) and also diferent colours. When the display would have a special harded surface and protected against dirt/easy clean, it could become possible to use normal Pens, like pencil or ballpen on the touchscreen. (The opener wasn't a big joke - I want to have the device as robust an strong as possible that it is stabil and longliving like all mechanical tools that I have - or just as like ballpens. It isn't law of nature that a machine must be broken after falling down 1m, getting wet or be used with a normal pen) > I'm not sure where the multi-touch documents came from that were posted on > the internet. They were concept drawings I did a while back. (For the > record, long before Apple's interface patents.) I hope that you did also published before Apple took the patents ;) > The vendor of the touch panel we are using said it might be possible. But it > would be a considerable driver effort. We are not going to have this done > for our initial Neo1973 release. I was never even on our roadmap for this > device. Don't wory - when the data of the hardware sensor could be accessed by software than drivers could become hacked (also solution that maybe will run in hardware on next generation of phone.) During calling or some other applications that use high CPU power no multi-touch is needed - but during text input there would be enough CPU power to do multi-touch recongnition. > I'll try to see if I can dig up more information about this for Robert when > I return to Taiwan. I know it's something that got you very excited. Indeed :)) > Once again, sorry for the needless confusion this has caused. Oh no - I'm very happy about this :))) I wouldn't be disapointet when the Neo1973 v1 couldn't use multi-touch, it is just an very exciting potential for the next generation of device. Even the 4 hardware buttons of a PalmPilot are dispensable when a inclination sensor unlook the screen and a huge combination of singel finger movements or combination of multitouch could be combined with function/program starts Another idea of multi-touch - imagine a simple top down movement of a single line - by using one finger you could start with you finger nail and end with your finger tap = different to a line just with finger nail or finger tap. A combination of finger nail and fingertap (narrow line, wide line) could be included in every movement of your key/finger stroke. Don't worry to give more information about the hardware of the v1 - doing some brainstorming what power multi-coulor sensors would have and how to use them would help for the next generation. Maybe I will hack my Neo to do some multi-touch sensor developing - adding the touchscreen to my PC and route the regognition back (via usb) to my Neo :))) So I'm not confused - I have enough ideas what to hack with the Neo1973 even only with the At-GSM/GPRS commands, AGPS and a single touch sensor. So IMHO some more important open questions (some stuff for meetings), then details to the touch screen... - will the device will get one light detector? - could the touch sensor work as 2 (or 4) direction light detector? - will the touch detector open engough for to some development? - will there an audio in (mono/stero - frequenzy? 20-20.000 Hz?) - will the SD card slot support SDIO? - realy only micro S
Re: (text/number/info/notes) input with power of multi-touch :)))) Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gestu
On 12/5/06 10:04 PM, "Robert Michel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So please go ahead with your concept :) > Single finger import is important, too ;)) > > But I wanted to remind that beside single touch concept, > real *new* concepts (without patent protections) could be > possible - and this concpets could suport real fast > key import that you don't have the need for a external > querty keyboard : I've been meaning to comment on this for almost a week now, but I've just been too consumed in other things. I'm in Japan now so I have a bit more time (less meetings each day ;-). I'm not sure where the multi-touch documents came from that were posted on the internet. They were concept drawings I did a while back. (For the record, long before Apple's interface patents.) The vendor of the touch panel we are using said it might be possible. But it would be a considerable driver effort. We are not going to have this done for our initial Neo1973 release. I was never even on our roadmap for this device. I'll try to see if I can dig up more information about this for Robert when I return to Taiwan. I know it's something that got you very excited. Once again, sorry for the needless confusion this has caused. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (text/number/info/notes) input with power of multi-touch :)))) Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gestu
Salve David! On Tue, 05 Dec 2006, David Ormsbee wrote: > Hey there, > > >This thread have some interesting other key input systems as well > >and I like David's demo > >> http://dave.hereticmonkey.com/musings/phone_keyboard.html > >but correct me if I would be wrong - this are only single > >touch concepts. > > They are single touch concepts, but I think that's important for a > phone. Of course - but beside using one pen, one finger multitouch give us a chance of new, more powerfull concepts. :) And when we do speak out this ideas that it will be our technique - an open one :) > I think that the text input system for a phone should still > work when the user only has one hand available. Multi-touch != multi-hand You remind me to write "of course will encrease the posibility to write with two hands with multi-touch (1,2,3,4, or five fingers) the power to code the input functions - when just one hand got the power of 4096 (or more) different information imputs with multitouch and movement - by doing it with two hands it will give the power of 4096²=16777216 :))) Don't get me wrong - of coure I don't think that many people would learn 16777216 combinations to type faster... I just wanted to show the power of code with multi-touch (even without multi-colour) Interesting would be the combination without moving the touchpoints 64*64=4096 so real fast typing would be possible. But the huge number of codes would not only allow commands/function inside an application and system wide - it would allow to use stenographie concepts but also with variables inside a text modul: "i" with 1/4 turning in clock direktion could be: "I'm now $gps.localisation.now.name" "i" with 1/2 turning in clock direktion could be: "My next date will be at $calendar.date.next.time o'clock at $calendar.date.next.localisation" Or have text modules without given variable values c with 1/2 turning in clock direction "I would like to cook $ask.what_to_cook this evening with you." So when i type c with 1/2 turning would print I would like to cook $ask.what_to_cook this evening with you. on the screen and a pop up window would ask me "What to cook?" some movement of "f p f" would create "Pizza Fungi" So to type "I would like to cook pizza fungi this evening with you." Would need the input of "c f p f" (with some movements) The popup for food could remind me the classes of food "fish, beaf, pizza" and choocing the subclass pizza the next subclasses "magaritha, fungi..." BTW i liked the multi clipboard hack for the palm and would like to see it with openmoko as well - so the latest quotes could be choosable on the screen or get hotkeys :) > I see people using > their phones like this all the time. They might be standing on the > bus, with one hand holding a railing, and the other holding their > phone. So then you have only on hand to hold your device and to use the same hand for typing. > Then again, it's possible that the advantages of using multi-touch for > text input will be so great that it's better to just use it and have a > different keyboard mode to drop into if you only have one hand > available. I am really looking forward to trying this out when > somebody codes it up. :-) Of course - I do not disagree - qoute from my mail: >> First let me say that I do not think that one text input system >> will be fit/the best for every Neo1973 user and also for every >> situation. Interaction like normal mobile 2=a 22=b 222=c >> will be a must have like a virtual querty/querz keyboard. >> This thread have some interesting other key input systems as well >> and I like David's demo >> http://dave.hereticmonkey.com/musings/phone_keyboard.html >> but correct me if I would be wrong - this are only single >> touch concepts. So please go ahead with your concept :) Single finger import is important, too ;)) But I wanted to remind that beside single touch concept, real *new* concepts (without patent protections) could be possible - and this concpets could suport real fast key import that you don't have the need for a external querty keyboard : Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (text/number/info/notes) input with power of multi-touch :)))) Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gestu
Hey there, This thread have some interesting other key input systems as well and I like David's demo > http://dave.hereticmonkey.com/musings/phone_keyboard.html but correct me if I would be wrong - this are only single touch concepts. They are single touch concepts, but I think that's important for a phone. I think that the text input system for a phone should still work when the user only has one hand available. I see people using their phones like this all the time. They might be standing on the bus, with one hand holding a railing, and the other holding their phone. They might be walking somewhere while carrying luggage or holding something in their other hand. In all these cases, they've only got the use of their thumb to press the buttons. Then again, it's possible that the advantages of using multi-touch for text input will be so great that it's better to just use it and have a different keyboard mode to drop into if you only have one hand available. I am really looking forward to trying this out when somebody codes it up. :-) Sincerely, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
(text/number/info/notes) input with power of multi-touch :)))) Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture r
Salve! Ohh it is so obvious wich power multi-touch brings into text input systems :) Remember the newton or Palmpilot regongnition sytems drawing a line like a alpha makes a small "a" -now use two finger nails/tips at the same time to draw this line and it could become a big "A". > Summary of multi-colour, multi-touch > - position of touch > - touch area > - touch intensitivity > - touch moving > - combination with other touch points > - and *new* colour of the touch > > have an incredible potential for input/interactivation Even without colour - the coulor was just a middle stepp for me... First let me say that I do not think that one text input system will be fit/the best for every Neo1973 user and also for every situation. Interaction like normal mobile 2=a 22=b 222=c will be a must have like a virtual querty/querz keyboard. This thread have some interesting other key input systems as well and I like David's demo > http://dave.hereticmonkey.com/musings/phone_keyboard.html but correct me if I would be wrong - this are only single touch concepts. - missing physicalicaly buttons would make using the keyboard bind - focusing on the text that I write or that I like to copy would become unpossible - adding a grid around the virtual keys could help focussing my finger on the right places - SMS input "2=a 22=b 222=c" morsing and other methods are anouing, because it has a sinificant time that you need for coding a key - not with one touch I have learnd grafitty quite fast an can still use it today. But what would be possible without hardware buttons, but with multi-touch? -now use two finger nails/tips at the same time to draw this line and it could become a big "A". This is a foretaste/handsel what new concepts would become possible with multi-touch :))) put your four longest finger together and place over the screen, parallel to one side, or 45° twisted: 00 0 00 0 0 0 Now the recognition (0=touch #=no touch) #0 0# 00 0# #0 00 00 0# #0 #0 00 00 0# 00 in both position would be possible for shure (2x7=14 different keys) Pattern like this 00 0# ## #0 0# #0 ## ## ## 0# 00 #0 ## ## 0# #0 (2x8=16) will be likly possible to recongince relative to the other position from this just 3 pattern will be definite 0 00 0 0 2x3=6 Than the 3 finger could be used: 000 0 00 0 0 0 00 0 2x4=8 mabe also at higher or lower level . So at last this would make 24 pattern for shure or separtion of single fingers 0 0 00 or by using 5 fingers like 000 00 No let us use the same pattern with a little distances bettween our finger (narrow & wide) that makes 48 different pattern for shure (64 likly) with one multi-touch with 4 fingers *without* - movement of our finger on the screen - without special areas on the touchscreen Avery pattern can be moved into 8 direction (up,down,right,left,rightuppercorner...) and the movemend could be directly (in different lengh eg. 1/4,1/2,3/4,1) or with a cirle (e.g. 1/4,1/2,3/4,1) so that would make 64 different movemnts. Without combination or going back (up-down) would it be 48*64=3072 (or 4096) pattern. So again comparing with single touch a multi touch sensor would make it possible to use our fingers in relative position to each other and touch with (one or) more fingers simultanious to create special codes on this to use this with or without movement of the touch for -text/information input -dialing -commands (inside a program/window or system wide) -switching between the programs -input for music -other input With such a multi-touch coded imput e.g 0# c #0 d 00 e #0 0# #0 would it possible to input music without special areas on the screen. Turning it with 45° (positiv direction) it could raise the note with a have step up 0 # # 0 cis other direction it could be a have stepp down "ces" - hearable sliding sound when turning while touching - unhearable and with an accurate cis or ces by retouching. narrow,wide (or just more distance level) could encrease the input over 2 or more oktave Imagene to splite the display into 2 ore more major areas - this could become different instruments - the position could influence the sound level (key dynamic) or the sound itself So instead of a virual piano keyboard such multi-touch input could be used for blind playing as well - with 2 voices/instruments bass and saxophone - and other multi-touch commands could be used to manimulate the simulator - changing the instruments, the sound effects Even without learning playing with to hands such a multi-touch-input system would be fun, because it is dual use - you could use it for writing and making music. So I like to propose to use the power of multi touch for key/text/information input to be able to - Do it blind - Do it fast - Do it every
sun compass with multi-touch sensor or multiple light sensors Re: Light sensor
Salve! Could the multi-touch sensor be used as light sensor? Would it work in two direction (two sides of the display with on corner) even better 2D (4 sides of the display)? Then no additional sensor would be necessery (instead of the additional sensor would be less power consumpting) and the direction where the most light came from could be used as well: Hold the Neo1973 into direct sun light. Based on the time (and longitude informaion) it could be used as sun-compass. Hacking the multi-touch sensor software for rotating maps - such a sun compas would let routate the map automaticaly in North-South direction (the same as a electronical compas would work) The sun compass could use to calibrate or check the magneticaly one. Or use it as Sextant :) Hang up your Neo1973 and fix it vertical with sun on your display. Calculate the cenit position and time for the sun. Messure the time between sunrise and sundown and use this for calculating time or/and position. When the sensor is sensitive enough - do it with the moon as well. In case that the multi-touch sensor isn't sensitive enough - use two seperate light sensors. And when you know your position and time with AGPS, the two high sensitive light sensors could use to calculate the inclination. A third (or more) high sensitive sensor could help to use the sun compass in all ways you hold your Neo1973 into the sun. To do some old style navigation with the neo would be - fun - instructive (to learn to navigate without GPS) - and would be a fall back in case that GPS is switched of Wish you to have sun this weekend! rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
On Wednesday 29 November 2006 11:02, Robert Michel scribbled in crayon on the back of a kid's menu: > No keystroke at all - using just the different color points - areas > and use the combinatoric - 10 colour points without different areas > would give the power of 10! = 3.628.800 combinations > more areas would give more power > - so it would become possible to write shorthand/stenography with this > device and even faster then with normal keyboards. > > But also a normal virtual qwerz keybord could profit of muticolour, > for 10-finger stystem user, the colour points or fingertaps would > avoid that the right index finger could type something other then > YU,HJ,BN - because of the fact that the other (coloured) fingers > still stay on the touchscreen - the regongnition of the typing > could be relative to the position of the other fingers. An alternative that is probably more practical in the short term might be IBM's Shape Writer. http://www.almaden.ibm.com/u/zhai/shapewriter.htm ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
> No keystroke at all - using just the different color points - areas > and use the combinatoric - 10 colour points without different areas > would give the power of 10! = 3.628.800 combinations > more areas would give more power > - so it would become possible to write shorthand/stenography with this > device and even faster then with normal keyboards. Go go, gadgetto-hand, to hold my neo 'cause I want to write the next chapter of "How to become a mach-3 typer" with eight fingers and two thumbs on a 2.8" screen.[1] Anyway, didn't want to stop your flow of ideas. BTW: What do you think about T9? Touching instead pressing keys could speed up the process noticable. And the user has the option to fit the geometry of keys to his fingers. Stony [1] I printed a picture of neo in its original size and... yes it fits, but don't expect to see anything else but fingers. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Fwd: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
> No keystroke at all - using just the different color points - areas > and use the combinatoric - 10 colour points without different areas > would give the power of 10! = 3.628.800 combinations > more areas would give more power so... if we've got an optical system like this, would it also be possible to use the screen to scan in small documents(business cards) I think I saw something like this years back, and this would be a perfect platform for that idea... especially if we can throw in some OCR --Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
keylock with the use of multi-touch sensor, clinometer to lock and anlock
Salve, because I know *now* that the Neo1973 has a whole for a string to wear it at your neck - I have some ideas... of course optional and not by default - but when the normal standby position would be vertical - at your neck or in your pocket - so when using the smartphone, you will put it into vertical direction - with an clinometer could the device automaticaly unlock the keylock and the user haven't to think how to unlock it. To lock the device the multi-touch sensor analysing could help - when has his normal menue than random multi-touch connections inside your pocked (no light) or at your chest, would be vertical and would make no sence - no accurate input - nonsense multi-touch... When having it hanging around my neck, the top side of the device will be down - flipping the screen with a small (1/3) mirror effect would make it readable for me to - a big clock with nice background would be nice - here an example for the picture of a T (with 1/3 mirror) # # # # # #<= displaing for people in front of me # # # # # #<= mirror for me looking from above - A friend of mine said, that the clinometer would be more usefull for navigate inside of menues/ebooks then an accelerometer. Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
On Wednesday 29 November 2006 11:02, Robert Michel scribbled in crayon on the back of a kid's menu: > No keystroke at all - using just the different color points - areas > and use the combinatoric - 10 colour points without different areas > would give the power of 10! = 3.628.800 combinations > more areas would give more power > - so it would become possible to write shorthand/stenography with this > device and even faster then with normal keyboards. > > But also a normal virtual qwerz keybord could profit of muticolour, > for 10-finger stystem user, the colour points or fingertaps would > avoid that the right index finger could type something other then > YU,HJ,BN - because of the fact that the other (coloured) fingers > still stay on the touchscreen - the regongnition of the typing > could be relative to the position of the other fingers. An alternative that is probably more practical in the short term might be IBM's Shape Writer. http://www.almaden.ibm.com/u/zhai/shapewriter.htm ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Skip all that, and go straight to monitoring EEG brain signals - one sensor (array), all input handled. Fashion it into a nice hat. Actually, no.. all I really want to do with the Neo1973 is get a ring-tone to do the "beep beep boop bop" from CTU/24. Now I think of it though.. AGPS/GPRS... urban Counter-Strike! Whenever you hear the designated call-chime, you can answer and hear pre-recorded 'mission' data. To which you can respond loudly: "What!? The British Agent is about to have a cup of tea and scones at a cafe down the road?! I'll take him out." etc Richard On 11/29/06, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Salve! Robert Michel schrieb am Mittwoch, den 29. November 2006 um 20:02h: > Or for the power user, paint different color points on your finger > tips (multiple (different) coloured points on one or more of your Ok nerds would paint their finger tips with colour, but who else? What about light frequency outside of our cognition? Or black-light and special colour to use the multi-touch sensor with multi colour? Or let us work with the pattern of our fingermarks The colour finger tips could be an intermediate step for nerds and developer ;) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! Robert Michel schrieb am Mittwoch, den 29. November 2006 um 20:02h: > Or for the power user, paint different color points on your finger > tips (multiple (different) coloured points on one or more of your Ok nerds would paint their finger tips with colour, but who else? What about light frequency outside of our cognition? Or black-light and special colour to use the multi-touch sensor with multi colour? Or let us work with the pattern of our fingermarks The colour finger tips could be an intermediate step for nerds and developer ;) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
multicolour multi-touch screen Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! For this text colour point and coloured fingertip are equivalent Robert Michel schrieb am Samstag, den 25. November 2006 um 04:22h: > A grafic, that explain the design of a "multi-touch" screen sensor: > http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirsense/index.html I was worried about dirt or the behavior of the touchscreen when raindrops will fall on the display... (I'm looking of a rugged, water protected Outdoo-Neo1973) So multicolour LED and screen sensor would be able to detect raindrops (maybe with the cost that no pure white stick could be used). Ok when the touchscreen sensor support multicolour recognition - why not wear small coloured thimbles on your fingertip? Or for the power user, paint different color points on your finger tips (multiple (different) coloured points on one or more of your finger, or multiple (different) coloured points at your (hand) palm or any other part of you body. Even external object could have colourd points to use this interface. Just for apriory: (E.g. something with a ball on one side and different colourd point on the other side. A circuit with a sensor could lighten the symbol which is most open - and on the opposide could be a coloure dot (or the inpot is given with other technique...) Instead of activate one function with tapping on it's meneu point or icon (or hotkey) just link this function with your green dot. The icon will got a green effect. So you could link 8, 10 or more funktion to special points on your body (or external object). The icon-bar mustn't visible the whole time - and when blue is linked to the function "bold" a "bold" icon could pop up (optional) for a short time. For a keyboard/synthy/drummachin - just say "virtual instrument" or touch areas for sound generation - different colours could have different sound effects/funktion as well. Summary of multi-colour, multi-touch - position of touch - touch area - touch intensitivity - touch moving - combination with other touch points - and *new* colour of the touch have an incredible potential for input/interactivation I could imagine that this could advance textimput as well. Fist stepp - two different colour for capital or lower case character - other colours could add font styles - or for simple html/squeak/wiki formats insted of [link] just use a different colour to write. But I would not be able to write with all fingers with the same speed - so specal areas, colours, move figures, intensitivity could activat different level - writing the keystrokes with my right index finger and the combination with other colours would activate other modes. No keystroke at all - using just the different color points - areas and use the combinatoric - 10 colour points without different areas would give the power of 10! = 3.628.800 combinations more areas would give more power - so it would become possible to write shorthand/stenography with this device and even faster then with normal keyboards. But also a normal virtual qwerz keybord could profit of muticolour, for 10-finger stystem user, the colour points or fingertaps would avoid that the right index finger could type something other then YU,HJ,BN - because of the fact that the other (coloured) fingers still stay on the touchscreen - the regongnition of the typing could be relative to the position of the other fingers. Just seting 2 x 4 fingers to the touchscreen would create a new virtual keyboard. When you move them a little bit because you have no fixed orientation - the virtual keyboard would move with your fingers: "Virtual keyboard for multi coulor touch with relative orientation" I thought about to add small visiblel dots/peak on the screen that I will have an orientation for my figers - probably a foile could be add on the screen and the dots/peaks. Coloured touch and the dots/peak would support also blind people to use the touchscreen better (maybe someone will add a braile via usb to the device someday. It's openness make it's very powerfull for all kind of development) I please you to go on and add/publish your ideas here, to avoid patents of such ideas!! Cheers, rob --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aachen, Germany ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
>= 2; multiuser input - dynamic keystroke for a mini-keyboard Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! Robert Michel schrieb am Samstag, den 25. November 2006 um 04:22h: > 2 must seen videos of Jefferson Y.Han work: Not only that on a Neo1973 could play 2 people (pong or others..) or more people at the same time, the screen could have different windows or be splittet so that that 2 persons write, phone¹, read, play ... or what ever at the same time. I could imagine that on 640x480 two persons could play melodies on the device and when they use sticks a third person could play a bass and 1-2 others percussions... But just for one person, it could be used as mini-keyboard for your pocket and the keystroke would be dynamicaly - you will be able to have dynamic from piano to forte ;)) rob ¹my idea to do two calls with one Neo1973 at the same time: htp://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000216.html ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Touchscreen hardware thoughts.... outdoor/waterprotected version/hack Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! just some more thoughts about the screen - IMHO would it be fine to have a - anti break strong construction - anti-scratch surface - a good anti-refection coating and I saw that Zeis offers "Clean-coat" anti water/dirt film http://www.zeiss.de/C125679B0052098D/EmbedTitelIntern/EVP_Beschichtung/$File/EVP_Beschichtung.pdf Combing this with a good polarisation and transreflective layer so that it will be better (photosensing) the more light you have... Ah and at least: a photo sensor would be smart that the device wouldn't use backlight, when no backlight is needed (of course with a software controll to adjust this) So even with the same TFT: Instead of a design that the network operators like and supermarkets like: "throw it away after 12 month because it was crap from the beginning"-design (Non scratch resistent metall look varnished survaces with uncoloured plastic to make every scratch much more visible, refective displays, and lousy breaking of keys...) a desing for a long use with reliale quality (even when the device would cost 5-10$ more (or more): Much diversify with quality, with a better design is be possible and would IMHO help FIC come into the market When not be sold as 1Euro¹ ² ³ offer (with much footnotes and disadvantages) it shouldn't be try to compete with the same low case and screen quality... So not only facts like "high resolution" would count... :)) Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Touchscreen hardware thoughts.... outdoor/waterprotected version/hack Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! I have no internals of the Neo1973 developing project so I'm just *speculating* what technic the touch screen with the multi-touch power would have... Robert Michel schrieb am Samstag, den 25. November 2006 um 04:22h: > A grafic, that explain the design of a "multi-touch" screen sensor: > http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirsense/index.html When something like this would be the hardware design (in the grafic the sensor is missing - I think that Jeff. Y. Han use just a camera...) than some thoughts: - PalmPilots (as I know) do have glass touch screen elements, a touchscreen of my older PalmPilot had to displace the brocken touchsceen of my PalmPilot IIIx (I fall on the device and craced the touchscreen in the first week I switchted to the IIIx) Because of a minimal better screen, I solderd the screen of the IIIx and the touchscreen of the (older) PalmPilot into my new device Owning a populare device that use the same parts and connections (in newer modells higher quality but still compatible) is fine to repair things your self... :) But better would be to avoid materials that can be brake. A Display full of plastic/acryl would be better then one with glass :) plastic is not so hard - so it could become scratches... I think such a "multitouchscreen" could be protected with a plastic film like the most user of PDAs use - I guess the sensor would need a small calibration because of a different refections... But external pockets with a transparent slide could become a problem to use with such a system. So a devices protection system should be no "add on" it should be part of the device design like a water resistend watch. Surfaces, even the display, could become a anti-scratch coating (next generation of technique would be to do this with help of plasma... hard glas, diamond on plastik) The case of the device shold be strong (Carbon-faser strengthened), but soft shock absorbability for the ciruit inside, and a phone that would be waterprotected like a Aesu VX-7R would be fine to - don't wory when it is raining... One analog multiplexer could deactivate the electricaly I/O USB audio-out (and I hope audio-in) to avoid electricaly shortcuts... Ahhh and the same multiplexer (SPI controlled) could be used to use the USB internaly (USB, Wifi, more memory). But such a water protection would cut a little bit the audio quality... (and only Bluetooth headsed would give you best audio quality) With the navigation and computing power of the Neo1973, I would like to use it Outdoor, on the bike (Interface to tacho sensor could become needless - maybe a sensor of your body function or a sensor of your cycle rate), in wind and rain without the fear that just one single raindrop could kill my device Finaly, to have the Neo1973 strong enough that the device would survive falls from 1.5 to beton/stone ground would be great, too. A outdoor case could be an accessory or selfmade hardware hack... or just a second construction/model Neo1973-outdoor Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
virtual instruments Re: first ideas Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! Robert Michel schrieb am Samstag, den 25. November 2006 um 05:57h: > So with the force of the pressure a keystroke dynamic keyboard/synthy > would be possible with the Neo1973 hardware. virtual violin, acustic/e-guitar, (e-)bass the neo would not be big enough for 12 frets, but for a view and a region where the other hand could strike the virtual strings :) (I guess no fingerpicking, but striking should work) Beside to virtualise existing instruments - the multi-touch screen will allow to create new ones.. I'm looking forward to get technical details to this multi-touch-screen - how sensible and detailed it will be - and of course (like everybody else) to have a Neo1973 in my heads ... ;) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
first ideas Re: OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve ! Robert Michel schrieb am Samstag, den 25. November 2006 um 04:22h: > So also is no semi-3D zooming and need that the icons fidget like on the > M$ zune - the userer don't need these animations to now that his icon > selection has moved to right or up... I could see this "multi-touch" videos nonstop the whole night... ;) GUI The visible feeback by pressing a virtual key, e.g. "1" when you call could be influenced by the pressure and the area size you press. (in 3d the virtuall key could move more to the corner you press more) I dislike (virtual) key sounds but this could be influenced by the way you press the key as well... Why? Because this would be authentic - much much more than everytime the same animation when you press your plasic navigation key... When the virtual keys are quite dark, they could glue (become bright) when they are pressed. So with the force of the pressure a keystroke dynamic keyboard/synthy would be possible with the Neo1973 hardware. And beside of playing Pong with 2 player - I can imagine that much much more would be possible - to work/play together on a Neo, or to split the screen (or just using diverent windows) I already thought about to let two persons do two phonecalls at the same time with one Neo1973: Maybe two phone calls via 9.6 kbit/s data call possible Re: encrypted phone calls ; ) http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000216.html So "multi-touch" would allows to have to diverent menus. Or on one table 2 persons could sit vis-a-vis and everybody would have 640x240 or 320x480 to do what ever he likes - writing SMS/email, reading, browsing... playing... In the same way it could be possible that 2 or more people playing on "their" keyboard at the same time (melodies) with different sound - with sticks instead of fingers a third could play bass and another could do drum/percussion... And in case that the CPU would be to slow for your ideas/programms using multi-touch - keep in mind that you could use FreeNX (via USB, Wlan,GPRS) to make the Neo1973 your mobil terminal *with* multi-touch and the 3D calculation (or big database manipulation, sientific calculation game rendering.)would be done on a black box. It's likely (I think) that then the next generation of hardware for OpenMobile will have an 3D grafic coprocessor on board the Neo1973 your mobile Does somebody have ideas how to edit text with the help of multi-touch? IMHO funny was the virtual keyboard, transparent over the desktop - what was Jeff idea - that it could move automaticaly while typing? People who type with 1-2 fingers would proffit when the keyboard area also provide other informations... Last idea for this night from me: multi-touch could maybe also be used for a new (fast/secure) login concept rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
OpenMoko/Neo1973 is pure (r)evolution :))) - do you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recognition"
Salve! I found some videos that are soo cool, you must see them to understand what the Neo1973 will/could will be :) (Sean, please correct me, in case I would overestimate the potential of OpenMoko/Neo1973 ;) Beside of the power to have a smartphone = mobil PC + GSM/GPRS 100% open with a Linux SDK and apt-get like power of ipkg + AGPS power - positioning inside your pocket and buildings + VGA with touchscreen Have you recognized the power of "multi-touch gesture recongnition"? 90% of my PC work I do with colored text terminal (bash,vim,mutt,elinks) but the time I used the Palm daily influenced me so much that I sometimes just want to touch a link or an new email. As civil engineer student I understood the power of AGPS and that the hardware is designed to do with this small device that no other device could do yet - so I wounderd already that the only user inputed on the pictures of the Neo1973 has been "multi- " to zoom and rotate maps http://www.slashgear.com/fic-linux-cellphone-can-it-capture-the-imagination-of-the-open-source-community-072392.php/2/ And I though that is cool for maps. For adressbook or menue navigation I already thought that the Neo1973 doesn't have the navigation keys (stick) of modern mobils, but a 480x640 touchscreen is no disadvantage - this is a big advantage - you can choose directly. So also is no semi-3D zooming and need that the icons fidget like on the M$ zune - the userer don't need these animations to now that his icon selection has moved to right or up... Just toch the icon you whant to choose and only theanimation of the icon - menue point of your interest is important ;) Ok, that is a conversative use of a touchscreen that alread the newton and the palm had and also most of the PDAs. But I never have seen "multi-touch" in action - 30 minutes ago I found some videos and this hardware/software feature/potential isn't only good for maps :))) *warning* ;) remember the CPU power of the Neo1973 - the videos have nice real time animations - do not expect this with the Samsung s3c2410 SoC, but just see how usefull "multi-touch" is/could be: 2 must seen videos of Jefferson Y.Han work: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6379146923853181774&q=multi-touch and his first live presentation about it (February 2006 in Monterey, CA): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=88401711802763&q=multi-touch And 2 more videos: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6138541830791071433&q=multi-touch http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6420668728353654549&q=multi-touch A grafic, that explain the design of a "multi-touch" screen sensor: http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirsense/index.html I hope you know about the PalmPilots hacks that with special pen strokes you could start programs/hacks or you could lock device. How much potential would have such function have with multi-touch? :) So what do you think will be the limits to use this (and even) more with a Neo1973? It's good to have no software patents in Europe - but what of all this ideas are techniques are protected in USA or Asia? And would FIC help OpenMoko to have the freedom to be open minded and to develope free going further and to create a smartphone and enviroment that is realy (r)evolutionary? Cheers ;) rob That I link to a squeak project is not because of the language and that I propose to use squeak - And for inspiration, remember the video about the squeak educational software, written in Smalltalk-80 (just for inspiration - I will not propose any language/enviroment to use with OpenMoko ;) http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-7680106513348266522&q=Squeak (19 Min.) Imagine to combine something like that with a multi-touch screen : And back to the roots of GUI systems: By looking for Squeak videos I found this ACM SIGGRAPH 1983 Issue 8 - Smalltalk Demo of the original Smalltalk 80 System. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7466310348707586940&q=squeak (19 Min.) Xerox research - AFAIK the first start of grafical window system, used with a mouse - right? Does somebody knows details about the hardware used in 1983 to do this? When a "multi-touch" screen eliminate the need of a navigation buttons, a mouse or keys - what is the use for the second button of the Neo1973? One button to switch on, the other touchscreen-lock? Or reset? ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
