Re: power of "apt-get install" example: Linksys NSLU2 is now official supported by Debian installer, 2. free ARM emulator QEMU
Robert Michel wrote: >>> 1. Linksys NAS NSLU2 (ARM CPU) is now officiall supported by the >>>Debian installer >> It has been support by the slugos installer for some years now, and slugos >> is built with >> openembedded like openmoko. > > Ok, but with Debian support I does not know or care about slugos > installer - same source, same tools The Debian support (as far as the central kernel support, network driver support, LEDs support, RTC support, etc goes) is based on the SlugOS/OpenEmbedded work done by the NSLU2-Linux project (which I lead). NSLU2-Linux just doesn't have the same Press Release capabilities and experience that Debian has :-) It's all steps in a process. First someone works out how to "hack" the vendor firmware. Then add-on packages are released which work with the vendor firmware. Then a customised open-source firmware is released, with it's own set of packages. Then a desktop distribution (like Debian or Gentoo) has support added for the new target. Luckily, for OpenMoko, the first three steps of that process have been short-circuited by the foresight of this new paradigm in consumer electronics. For the NSLU2, it took a year of custom firmware (which as Koen notes, is based on the same base system as OpenMoko) before we could even convince Debian people to look at the device. And it has taken nine months from the first Debian proof-of-concept to the point now where all the features which were in SlugOS from the beginning have now been integrated into Debian. Some people still say that the SlugOS firmware has better recovery features than the Debian installer firmware. The Debian installer firmware is certainly easier to install for someone who does not know how to use the Linux command line. > BTW Security - the official Debian NSLU2 installation didn't include the > close source ethernet driver The SlugOS/OpenEmbedded distribution is testing the new open-source ethernet driver, which replaces the proprietary Intel driver. SlugOS has supported the internal ethernet device from day one (over two years ago). We believe it is the popularity of the NSLU2 project which has encouraged the development of an open-source replacement for the Intel driver. > type in: > > apt-get install asterisk > > and now you will have in a few minutes the power of asterisk > (www.asterisk.org) the great powerfull open telefon server > on your small NAS box > just from the debian servers - without building own packets > or compiling Type in: ipkg install asterisk and you get the same thing on SlugOS/OpenEmbedded, but you had it six months earlier than you could do it on Debian. >> OE has been using qemu to emulate various things during crosscompiling for a >> while now. >> >> I guess old news gets recycled once debian does it ;) > > Ok, could be old (cold) coffee for most on this list > - sorry to bother you ;) > > But debian makes things easyer to use (with less knowledge) > and more populare. Indeed it does, but the basic new features (at least in the NSLU2 case) have always been prototyped and shown to work on the custom OpenEmbedded-based firmware first. I would be more inclined to expect OpenEmbedded developers (who only work with embedded devices) to be able to get the most out new embedded device firmware, compared to the majority of Debian developers who only ever work on an x86 desktop (and perhaps do not even know what cross-compiling is). No disrespect to Debian - they have caused a 12.5% increase in NSLU2-Linux custom firmware downloads (40,000 -> 45,000), so there definitely is an audience of users who need a simple to install, but perhaps not as optimised or robust, platform. -- Rod Whitby -- NSLU2-Linux Project Lead, waiting for a Neo ... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: power of "apt-get install" example: Linksys NSLU2 is now official supported by Debian installer, 2. free ARM emulator QEMU
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Robert Michel schreef: > Salve Koen! > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Koen Kooi wrote: >> As indicated before, openmoko won't use apt, but ipkg. > > Ok - so I asked myself why ipkg and not apt. > http://www.handhelds.org/hypermail/familiar/129/12970.html > gaves the answer that ipkg will use less memory on the mobil. > I love to be able to use one tool on diverent devices and plattforms > so my first reaction on this info was :( Ipkg is *the* standard for embedded devices. Look at openwrt, the sharp zaurus or the angstrom distribution. We can argue about ipkg's bugs later :) > Second, I still have the open question if ipkg on Neo1973 could > let me use the normal .deb packets from the debian mirrors, or > comes the need with ipkg to convert every packet? No, openmoko uses a different ABI (softfpa instead of hardfpa, although I'm hoping for EABI) as debian, so .debs from debian/ARM wouldn't run. As a side note, .debs are the same as .ipks, both are ar-wrapped tarballs with control information. ipkg can install .debs (compiled with the right ABI) and dpkg can install ipks (again, compiled with the right abi). regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFXN2KMkyGM64RGpERAl58AJ4w9f2rHufjiG3WNo/lYmrpCu/7JwCbBUvk VgzxubMrpe5v7lL23RArWAY= =aMEL -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: power of "apt-get install" example: Linksys NSLU2 is now official supported by Debian installer, 2. free ARM emulator QEMU
Salve Koen! On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Koen Kooi wrote: > As indicated before, openmoko won't use apt, but ipkg. Ok - so I asked myself why ipkg and not apt. http://www.handhelds.org/hypermail/familiar/129/12970.html gaves the answer that ipkg will use less memory on the mobil. I love to be able to use one tool on diverent devices and plattforms so my first reaction on this info was :( Second, I still have the open question if ipkg on Neo1973 could let me use the normal .deb packets from the debian mirrors, or comes the need with ipkg to convert every packet? If yes, does somebody already hacked a proxy for do this? Maybe: I already use my (external) vserver for finding new software - apt-cach search, apt-get install and also man is much faster then my laptop. So why not swap out as much as possible from the mobile to a (own) server? A proxy that knows about the installation on the mobile and that it could calculate dependencies, needed free space and needed data transfer (and it's estimated cost via GPRS) and convert the .deb for the ipkg installer. > > 1. Linksys NAS NSLU2 (ARM CPU) is now officiall supported by the > >Debian installer > > It has been support by the slugos installer for some years now, and slugos is > built with > openembedded like openmoko. Ok, but with Debian support I does not know or care about slugos installer - same source, same tools > OE has been using qemu to emulate various things during crosscompiling for a > while now. > > I guess old news gets recycled once debian does it ;) Ok, could be old (cold) coffee for most on this list - sorry to bother you ;) But debian makes things easyer to use (with less knowledge) and more populare. I do have much respect for those with much knowledge. My motivation to write the mail about QEMU/Debian was to collect information for people (like me) which haven't used an embedded Linux or a Linux PDA yet - and to support them that they start a ARM emulation with X (and soon with openmoko software) just 5 minutes after they thought "OpenMoko/Neo1973 - a real open Linux phone - that sounds interesting". Thank you for your feedback rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: power of "apt-get install" example: Linksys NSLU2 is now official supported by Debian installer, 2. free ARM emulator QEMU
On Thursday 16 November 2006 21:08, Koen Kooi wrote: > As indicated before, openmoko won't use apt, but ipkg. Besides that, with such an open platform, we will be able to build our own CLFS for the Neo1973 ;-) Isn't that marvellous ? cheers, Pierre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: power of "apt-get install" example: Linksys NSLU2 is now official supported by Debian installer, 2. free ARM emulator QEMU
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Robert Michel schreef: > Salve! > > Some stimulation, especialy for those who didn't use Debian (daily), > and those who can't wait to get a Neo1973 - in this email: As indicated before, openmoko won't use apt, but ipkg. > 1. Linksys NAS NSLU2 (ARM CPU) is now officiall supported by the >Debian installer It has been support by the slugos installer for some years now, and slugos is built with openembedded like openmoko. > 1.b (Reminder of the use for additional signal lines on the PCB) > > 2. The free ARM emulator QEMU allows you to install a Debian(ARM) >on other systems OE has been using qemu to emulate various things during crosscompiling for a while now. I guess old news gets recycled once debian does it ;) regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFXMUuMkyGM64RGpERAjMxAJ9CTDdzu9TZ18OCexRqaQnSy1KhyQCdGQ2n OxR0BIaDIWC/5qwcEG7+ifA= =2H0b -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
power of "apt-get install" example: Linksys NSLU2 is now official supported by Debian installer, 2. free ARM emulator QEMU
Salve! Some stimulation, especialy for those who didn't use Debian (daily), and those who can't wait to get a Neo1973 - in this email: 1. Linksys NAS NSLU2 (ARM CPU) is now officiall supported by the Debian installer 1.b (Reminder of the use for additional signal lines on the PCB) 2. The free ARM emulator QEMU allows you to install a Debian(ARM) on other systems ### 1. ### "The first release candidate of the debian-installer for Debian's forthcoming "Etch" distribution was released yesterday, offering nearly complete support to the Linksys $99 NSLU2 NAS gadget." http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4448420055.html Linksys NAS NSLU2 use an Intel XScale core inside, the IXP420, which is based on a ARMv5TE architecture... http://www.intel.com/design/network/prodbrf/25249403.pdf So with the cheap NSLU2 you can feel now the great potential of Debian with apt-get on a ARM plattform ;) see: http://www.cyrius.com/debian/nslu2/install.html http://www.nslu2-linux.org The NSLU2 is just another example that people like to use the full power of the hardware - dobble the CPU speed 133 Mhz to 266 Mhz (to have full 200 Mbit/s routing power with ethernet) - add one RS232 - add one USB 1.1 Port - upgrading Flash and RAM memory And of corse the hackers are disapointed that the SoC offeres two Networkdevices *BUT* see http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/Info/CPUOverview for some limitations due the PCB - e.g.: "There are two MII interfaces of which only one is wired to an Ethernet PHY. The other MII interface is not accessible at all as the designers of the PCB did not bring the necessary BGA ball connections out." (oh no!) "The PCI bus is used to connect the NEC USB chip to the IXP420 and it is not possible to connect anything else as the required lines are also not brought out. Removal of the NEC USB chip to gain access to the PCI signals is the only way." Again: just one missing signal line can destroy a lot of the potential of the device for hackers and developers ;) BTW Security - the official Debian NSLU2 installation didn't include the close source ethernet driver - I must express my thank and support for Seans / OpenMoko decission to take care, that the is a clean, open, trustable linux system on the Neo1973 - waiting for Wifi is better then degenerate the Neo1973 to a untrustable plattform. And Suns GPLizing of java shows that focusing on trustable, clear systems will have succsess on the long term - when everybody would make compromises with security from the start so thank you for living the Debian spirit ;) But back to the good points of the nslu2 news - to feel the power when you can use Debian on your Worksation, your Laptop, your server, in near future on your mobile and now on your cheap NAS - imagine you own this cheap NAS, it is pluged to your network an one the PC you sitting in front now (while reading my mail) you have a shell (probably a SSH) to this nslu2. type in: apt-get install asterisk and now you will have in a few minutes the power of asterisk (www.asterisk.org) the great powerfull open telefon server on your small NAS box just from the debian servers - without building own packets or compiling The same way you will able to install powerfull software on your mobile - with the Neo1973 and OpenMoko ;) GNU/Linux and especialy Debian does have a lot of programms that could run without frontend, without GUI So with the Neo1973 we didn't need to start from the scratch with everything Debian-ARM offers allot of power, today! : ### 2. ### With the linuxdevices news I found another possibility to play with Debian on an ARM plattform before we get the first Neo1973: "Free ARM emulator beats real hardware Sep. 27, 2006 French Debian developer Aurelien Jarno has published a how-to about installing Debian (or another Linux distribution) on the open-source QEMU emulator. When run on newish AMD-based PCs, the setup can outperform actual hardware development targets, he says." http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9983843412.html Arm emulation even with X :))) "Using Xorg You now have a full Debian arm system that you can use for development or whatever. You You can even run Xorg using the fb device. Not that you have to select a 256-color mode, with a resolution up to 1024x768. http://www.aurel32.net/info/debian_arm_qemu.php I will play with this emulation nextime and I think that this emulator will be usefull for us ;) 1. Installing -> documentation how to use QEMU 2. Booting a live system -> QEMU with OpenMoko on a live Linux CD like Knoppix www.knoppix.org 3. no installing, no rebooting: -> QEMU with OpenMoko on vservers with FreeNX so that interested developer could get an access to use this with a Java-FreeNXclient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_technology http://freenx.berlios.de/ LinuxJournal had pu
