Re: [computer-go] Go and IQ training
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mike Olsson wrote: > This is a bit off topic, but I am wondering if a person can play Go > to increase their IQ or improve their intelligence. If one is going to discuss the extremely slippy concept of "intelligence" (or it's far, far slippier distant relative "Intelligence Quotient"), then it's practically required to have read Stephen Jay Gould's "Mismeasure of Man" (various editions from about 1980 to at least 1996, including ISBN-10: 0393314251 / ISBN-13: 978-0393314250). While it may not "blow out of the water" the whole subject of "intelligence testing", it does make one very well aware that the whole subject is a minefield of assumptions and prejudices (both conscious and unconscious. I read what was probably the original edition back in the mid-80s, and loaned my copy to a university friend who was studying psychology ; 15 year later she declined to return it because she was still regularly using it to deflate novice opinionated staff working under her with the "learning impaired". That would have been about the time of the infamously neo-racist tract "The Bell Curve". > From what I have read Kasparov's IQ is around 135 so playing Chess > doesn't really increase a person's IQ. > About 2.3 standard deviations above the norm. That would imply he's in the top 1½% or thereabouts of the population in performance on IQ tests. Sounds like there's be 3 Kasparov-equivalents per couple of full "Clapham Omnibuses". [Note 1] Or several per average chess club. Or maybe IQ test results are not a terribly good predictor of chess strength. I wouldn't really expect it to be much better a predictor of Go strength either. For what it's worth, the Aberdeen University Go Club was set up in the early 1980s by ... a carpenter. Always a good memory for deflating one's potential to self-aggrandisment. [Note 1] Standard British English idiom refers many questions to the opinion of the "man on the Clapham Omnibus", which seats about 75 people and stands another couple of dozen. -- Aidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland Written at Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:40 GMT, but posted later. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Go and IQ training
On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 10:19 +, Aidan Karley wrote: >For what it's worth, the Aberdeen University Go Club was set > up > in the early 1980s by ... a carpenter. Always a good memory for > deflating one's potential to self-aggrandisment. I've always found it humorous that the non-chess playing layman has an image of chess players that is so much different from reality - a bunch of well educated intellectuals, men smoking pipes, talking politics and speaking very formally. In reality, if you attend any chess club, you will see your fair share of almost exactly the opposite, a mixture of different kinds of people to be sure but plenty of those who are a little retarded socially, and live unbalanced lives. And then there is this other point of view that you have to be a little off balance to be a great player or to be "incredibly intelligent" probably in part propagated by real life examples of those who were such as Bobby Fischer and others. But just based on my own casual observations I never saw a correlation, the "misfits" at my local chess club (I haven't been there in years) varied wildly in strength, from the weakest to the best. And some of the best players were quite "normal." - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] kgsGtp sometimes "aborts" commands
I found a couple of times that "aborting genmove". Seriously I don't know what kgsGtp is doing but my engine handles that properly. My code is strictly "functional", you call genmove, I will not write neither read anything until the move is generated and write out to std out. Perhaps Its reseting the board and playing the moves again. It does it when the user undo's a move. Perhaps what its doing is just killing the engine's process and starting it again. The only thing I can be sure it that there is no asynchronic way of stoping the "genmove" command. Unless the "hard" way of killing the process. --- Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Orego is getting confused by kgsGtp when something > like this happens > (from kgsGtp log): > > FINE: Starting game as black against dirkie > Jan 12, 2007 12:22:33 PM > org.igoweb.igoweb.client.gtp.P i > WARNING: Opponent has left game. Will give them 5 > minutes to return. > Jan 12, 2007 12:22:33 PM > org.igoweb.igoweb.client.gtp.P h > FINE: Opponent has returned. > Jan 12, 2007 12:38:32 PM > org.igoweb.kgs.client.gtp.GtpClient d > FINE: Aborting command: genmove > Jan 12, 2007 12:38:48 PM > org.igoweb.kgs.client.gtp.GtpClient d > FINE: Ignoring response to aborted command: genmove > > Does kgsGtp send something special to the program > when a command is > aborted? > > Thanks, > > Peter Drake > Assistant Professor of Computer Science > Lewis & Clark College > http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ > > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] kgsGtp sometimes "aborts" commands
William Shubert tells me that the "abort" message is internal to kgsGtp. It really means that a command has been undone, with the usual GTP undo command to the program. It turned out there was a bug in the undo function of Orego, which I've now fixed. Moral: if you have this problem, make sure your program handles undo correctly. Peter Drake Assistant Professor of Computer Science Lewis & Clark College http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Jan 15, 2007, at 9:18 AM, Eduardo Sabbatella wrote: I found a couple of times that "aborting genmove". Seriously I don't know what kgsGtp is doing but my engine handles that properly. My code is strictly "functional", you call genmove, I will not write neither read anything until the move is generated and write out to std out. Perhaps Its reseting the board and playing the moves again. It does it when the user undo's a move. Perhaps what its doing is just killing the engine's process and starting it again. The only thing I can be sure it that there is no asynchronic way of stoping the "genmove" command. Unless the "hard" way of killing the process. --- Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: Orego is getting confused by kgsGtp when something like this happens (from kgsGtp log): FINE: Starting game as black against dirkie Jan 12, 2007 12:22:33 PM org.igoweb.igoweb.client.gtp.P i WARNING: Opponent has left game. Will give them 5 minutes to return. Jan 12, 2007 12:22:33 PM org.igoweb.igoweb.client.gtp.P h FINE: Opponent has returned. Jan 12, 2007 12:38:32 PM org.igoweb.kgs.client.gtp.GtpClient d FINE: Aborting command: genmove Jan 12, 2007 12:38:48 PM org.igoweb.kgs.client.gtp.GtpClient d FINE: Ignoring response to aborted command: genmove Does kgsGtp send something special to the program when a command is aborted? Thanks, Peter Drake Assistant Professor of Computer Science Lewis & Clark College http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: MC thought
I wonder if MC programs shouldn't prune game branches when sufficiently large captures occur. The loss/win might not be strictly allocated to the right player, but it certainly means that the current game has entered sillyspace. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: MC thought
Quoting Dave Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: I wonder if MC programs shouldn't prune game branches when sufficiently large captures occur. The loss/win might not be strictly allocated to the right player, but it certainly means that the current game has entered sillyspace. Are you talking about pruning a full board search tree or deep down a simulation? But the question might be: What move wins me the game even if something silly happens? If the move examined at the root is good maybe I can still win if a second silly thing favoring me happens? Playing a random game does enter sillyspace immediately so I do not see an argument in reducing sillyness. But the sillyness must be fair. The MC method finds moves that are robust against random events. I see it strongly linked to the ideas of playing honte and good shape. In short term other mover are tempting but it is the moves that are efficient to the end of the game that are truly good. Also think of a position where two groups of opposing colors are dead. If the smaller group has less liberties it will captured earlier and the position will often be misevaluated. So sufficently large as you wrote is probably very close to large enough to safely conclude the loss/win. But here there might be a tradeoff between speed and accuracy which leaves it as an open question for experimentation. -Magnus ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: MC thought
At 11:10 AM 1/15/2007, Magnus Persson wrote: >Quoting Dave Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >>I wonder if MC programs shouldn't prune game branches when >>sufficiently large captures occur. The loss/win might not >>be strictly allocated to the right player, but it certainly >>means that the current game has entered sillyspace. > >Are you talking about pruning a full board search tree or deep down a >simulation? Lets say that in your MC game a 20 point group is captured (on a 81 point board). There isn't any additional real information to be gleaned from this branch, so you might as well assign it to the capturing player. Suppose you have a realistic endgame position with two large groups that are actually alive with correct play. In a MC game, a lot of games that start with incorrect play will pretty rapidly capture one of the big groups, and then spend hundreds of moves filling in the empty space. Is anything really learned from that exercise? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: MC thought
On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 10:38 -0800, Dave Dyer wrote: > I wonder if MC programs shouldn't prune game branches when > sufficiently large captures occur. The loss/win might not > be strictly allocated to the right player, but it certainly > means that the current game has entered sillyspace. I think this is along the same lines as the "mercy" idea in the play-outs. Normally you play until the game is over, but you can speculatively stop the random play-out if you believe the score is lop-sided enough. Are you suggesting to do something like this in the tree search portion of the search? - Don > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fast Board implementation
>-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: computer-go@computer-go.org >Sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:08 PM >Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fast Board implementation > >What should the mercy threshold be for other board sizes than 9 by 9, >particularly 19 by 19? >- George Dahl I don't know. For 9x9, I ran many random playout games and whenever the rule triggered I would look at the board. With a little trial and error I picked a threshold where, with just a quick glance, it was always obvious which side would win. I use this threshold for external nodes and a higher one for internal nodes which are more likely to have alot of dead stones. Picking it this way is "the 80% solution." I got a nice speedup without having to fuss with it and I don't need to constantly revisit the issue, wondering if I'm running into some subtle bug. - Dave Hillis > > > > Here are a few speedup tricks that have helped me. > > > > 1. The mercy rule. Since I'm incrementally keeping track of a list of empty > > points, it's no real extra pain to keep track of the number of black and > > white stones on the board. If the difference between them exceeds a > > threshold, the game is over. Ending early has an added bonus that I know > > the > > outcome without needing to score the board. (You can shoot yourself in the > > foot here. Best to pick a more conservative threshold the closer you are to > > interior nodes of the tree.) For exterior nodes far from any interior > > nodes, > > I use a threshold of 25 stones. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
