Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
Although Tei and Aoba Professionals explained the match at the front stage with a projection, the game was so complicated that I couldn't see which is winning until near the end. Another semi-final match, my Fudo Go vs Katsunari, also was shown on the screen but in a small picture at upper right corner and had explained very shortly. Yes, all the people, including me :), were concentrated on your game and exciting. Is there any record of this game between CS and MFG ? Jonas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
David Fotland wrote: Congratulations to Remi for Crazystone's second UEC cup victory, and solid win over a professional. David Thank you David. For some reason, games between Crazy Stone and MFG are always complicated and exciting. I watched a few when we were playing on CGOS, and they were always spectacular. I would like also to thank the organizers for their invitation: they arranged everything for Crazy Stone, provided good hardware, and I had to do no work at all. What was your hardware, by the way ? I did not travel to Japan for the tournament, but I will visit UEC in January. I am looking forward to meeting some participants then. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
The machine was provided by the organizers. All I know is that it was 8 core. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Rémi Coulom Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:14 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup) David Fotland wrote: Congratulations to Remi for Crazystone's second UEC cup victory, and solid win over a professional. David Thank you David. For some reason, games between Crazy Stone and MFG are always complicated and exciting. I watched a few when we were playing on CGOS, and they were always spectacular. I would like also to thank the organizers for their invitation: they arranged everything for Crazy Stone, provided good hardware, and I had to do no work at all. What was your hardware, by the way ? I did not travel to Japan for the tournament, but I will visit UEC in January. I am looking forward to meeting some participants then. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UEC cup
Nick Wedd wrote: So what _is_ reality nowadays? Your previous email did not make this clear. Are Japanese pro grades now closer together than a third of a stone, or farther apart? The reality is that the correlation between ranks and playing strengths is very low, and that knowing that player A is x-dan professional and player B is y-dan professional does not actually tell you very much about how likely player A is to win against player B. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UEC cup
In message 49494ba4.7070...@mgoetze.net, Michael Goetze mgoe...@mgoetze.net writes Darren Cook wrote: Are we talking about different things? All I meant to say was that I thought in Japanese professional ranks that one rank is worth a third of a handicap stone. So when there are 6 ranks difference then two handicap stones should give an even game. Yes, we're talking about the same thing. What you're saying is an ancient theory which may have held true in 19th-Century Japan but is far removed from reality nowadays. So what _is_ reality nowadays? Your previous email did not make this clear. Are Japanese pro grades now closer together than a third of a stone, or farther apart? Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] UEC cup
What you are saying is that many professionals are overrated or underrated (sometimes by as much as two stones). The same goes for amateur ranks too. So a rank estimate from a series of 7 stone games against a 4p will still have a error margin of one or perhaps two stones. I agree with that. Van: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org namens Michael Goetze Verzonden: wo 17-12-2008 20:26 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] UEC cup Nick Wedd wrote: So what _is_ reality nowadays? Your previous email did not make this clear. Are Japanese pro grades now closer together than a third of a stone, or farther apart? The reality is that the correlation between ranks and playing strengths is very low, and that knowing that player A is x-dan professional and player B is y-dan professional does not actually tell you very much about how likely player A is to win against player B. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] UEC cup
I think a 7 stone handicap against a 4p would be normal for an EGF 1d, not for a japanese 1d. A japanese 1d is about 3k EGF. He would require more than 9 stones. Dave Van: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org namens Darren Cook Verzonden: wo 17-12-2008 2:48 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] UEC cup No one mentioned Korean professionals. But, as far as I know, a Japanese 7p should be able to give a Japanese 1p 2 stones and win 50% of the time. Roughly. I don't agree. Japanese Professinals' ranks never decrease. Hi, Are we talking about different things? All I meant to say was that I thought in Japanese professional ranks that one rank is worth a third of a handicap stone. So when there are 6 ranks difference then two handicap stones should give an even game. I also think a 1-dan Japanese professional is equivalent to about a 7-dan amateur. So, going back to the original 7 handicap against a 4p situation, then if it is an even game it implies black is about 1 dan (Japanese). With all the usual disclaimers about the large error margin on a sample of just 1 game :-). Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] UEC cup
When the japanese audience stated that CrazyStone was playing like a 4d or 5d they were talking about japanese ranks. This suggests that it played like a 1d EGF or 2d EGF according to the audience. Dave Van: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org namens dave.de...@planet.nl Verzonden: wo 17-12-2008 20:48 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: RE: [computer-go] UEC cup I think a 7 stone handicap against a 4p would be normal for an EGF 1d, not for a japanese 1d. A japanese 1d is about 3k EGF. He would require more than 9 stones. Dave Van: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org namens Darren Cook Verzonden: wo 17-12-2008 2:48 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] UEC cup No one mentioned Korean professionals. But, as far as I know, a Japanese 7p should be able to give a Japanese 1p 2 stones and win 50% of the time. Roughly. I don't agree. Japanese Professinals' ranks never decrease. Hi, Are we talking about different things? All I meant to say was that I thought in Japanese professional ranks that one rank is worth a third of a handicap stone. So when there are 6 ranks difference then two handicap stones should give an even game. I also think a 1-dan Japanese professional is equivalent to about a 7-dan amateur. So, going back to the original 7 handicap against a 4p situation, then if it is an even game it implies black is about 1 dan (Japanese). With all the usual disclaimers about the large error margin on a sample of just 1 game :-). Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic open source dictionary/semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] MCTS vs tradional go
One of my customers tried a tournament between Many Faces and Go++ 7.0, one of the strongest traditional programs. He says: Good news first: after 30 games MFGo12 (32min) vs. Go++7.0 (level 5) your program showed to be much stronger even on my slow PC - result so far would be 22 - 8 ! David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UEC cup
dave.de...@planet.nl wrote: What you are saying is that many professionals are overrated or underrated (sometimes by as much as two stones). No, what I'm saying is that professional ranking systems are not meant to be rating systems and should not be treated as if they were rating systems. (As Hideki pointed out, professional ranks never go down, only up.) The set of professional players whose strength is within a third of stone of Lee Sedol or Lee Changho is surely smaller than the set of professional players who are ranked 9dan. If you wanted a rating system which tops out at 9dan, you'd have to demote people. Professional organisations don't want that. So you should consider professional ranks more of a lifetime achievement indicator. They are not a rating system. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
I put some photos. http://yssaya.web.fc2.com/photo/uec2008/uec2008.html Kato's eight PlayStation 3 was impressive. http://yssaya.web.fc2.com/photo/uec2008/1213/Htmls/PICT2802.html Hiroshi Yamashita ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
jonas.k...@math.u-psud.fr wrote: Although Tei and Aoba Professionals explained the match at the front stage with a projection, the game was so complicated that I couldn't see which is winning until near the end. Another semi-final match, my Fudo Go vs Katsunari, also was shown on the screen but in a small picture at upper right corner and had explained very shortly. Yes, all the people, including me :), were concentrated on your game and exciting. Is there any record of this game between CS and MFG ? Jonas It is attached to this message. Rémi mfg-crazystone-.sgf Description: application/go-sgf ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UEC cup
Hi Mark, I'm not claiming to be an authority on the matter, but I beg to differ. Name me an EGF 7-dan that's not professional level. And then explain how come they are listed among players that are anywhere from 1p to 5p in different Asian countries. I used to be an EGF 6-dan and have beaten top 9p players with 3 stones on occasion. For a while I had a Japanese 2p teacher but stopped taking lessons when I started to beat him on black pretty consistently. That was when I was still 5-dan. So I don't think it's so far off to say 7-dan amateur is pro level. this is actually a rather complicated topic because you can have different definitions for professional strength. For instance, I could make an argument that S. Shikshina 3p does not have professional strength, AFAIK she did not become a professional in the regular way and has never won a professional tournament game. So, if you define professional strength as someone who could become a 1p in Korea, China or Japan today, I think most European 7dans would fail. (Dragos Bajenaru, while only calling himself 6dan, has a rating higher than some 7dans and failed to become a professional in Japan in the past.) If you define professional strength as the lowest strength of anyone who currently holds a professional rank, then most European 7dans qualify, yes. I've heard 2nd-hand reports of Noguchi Motoki losing a 4- or 5-handicap game against an active professional player. The collective record of European 7dans against professionals at the WMSG was 0 wins, 6 losses. Regrads, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] UEC cup
Mark Boon wrote: All the examples given to support the argument either way are at best anecdotal. But looking at the EGF ranking list, the 7-dan players are interspersed with players of professional ranks, with very few 6 dans among them. That is based on a considerable amount of data. Maybe you are correct to have doubts about S. Shikshina, but how about Guo Juan, Catalin Taranu, Alexander Dinnerschtein and others? These things tend to average out over larger numbers. Let's say that active Pros should have 2800+, though players with 2750+ might still be professional strength. That would give 2 or 3 EGF 7dans of professional strength, which doesn't contradict anything I said earlier. About the pros in the rating list, since you asked: Dinerstein is at the bottom end of professional strength, note that his promotion from 1p to 3p (like Shikshinas) had nothing to do with his playing achievements. Catalin was over 2800 during his time as an active pro (peaking at 2821 in 2004). He has obviously gotten weaker since he stopped playing pro tournaments, just like Guo, who has been out of the pro scene for so long that I think it's fair to say she doesn't have pro strength anymore. Finally, Diana has only been rated for 3 tournaments since she became a pro - there was a gap of 2 years where she was studying Baduk in Korea - and one of them was the WMSG which obviously has questionable effects on the rating because of so many participants who weren't in the rating database beforehand (for instance she lost against a girl from Taiwan who will have entered the database at 2600 but for all I know will be a professional soon). I think it's fair to say that her current rating probably does not reflect her current playing strength. I don't quite see the large numbers over which this is averaging out. ;) Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] RefBot (thought-) experiments
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Mark Boon tesujisoftw...@gmail.com wrote: It would have been much more persuasive if you had simply run a 5K playout bot against a 100K bot and see which wins more. In 200 games, 100k beat 5k a total of 127 times. So that's about a 63.5% win rate. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] RefBot (thought-) experiments
On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 03:27 +, Weston Markham wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:10 PM, Mark Boon tesujisoftw...@gmail.com wrote: It would have been much more persuasive if you had simply run a 5K playout bot against a 100K bot and see which wins more. In 200 games, 100k beat 5k a total of 127 times. So that's about a 63.5% win rate. That's better than I thought it would be. But I would guess that most of the benefit would be seen in doing just 10 or 20k playouts. This is because after 5K you are really in the seriously diminishing returns part of the curve. With a 63.5% win rate there is still a great deal of uncertainty, but this is evidence that it's probably better - which of course is very believable since that is what we would expect. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
One option is to reduce the time limit from 40 minutes to 30 minutes to add another round. You can seed a swiss competition so it is likely that the best programs will meet in the last round. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Shunsuke SOEDA Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:39 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup) Kato-san, David, I am a staff of the UEC Cup. On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Hideki Kato hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp wrote: David Fotland: 00ca01c95fa2$5ee6bb50$1cb431...@com: Is it true that the final was a single elimination tournament, and not a Swiss tournament? It seems that Many Faces never played Fudo Go. In future tournaments, please consider using the Swiss tournament system. Most people would agree that it gives more accurate results. You're right. The final of UEC Cup is not Swiss. Thank you for the comments. As I'm not a staff of the tounament I can't say anything about its future but I'll tell the staff your comments. Well, this issue is somewhat still in discussion. I guess the major reason not using Swiss style is the larger number of participants (24 this year) and the shorter time (two days including an exhibition match) of the tournament than for example Computer Olympiad. Yes, this is the main reason we chose single elimination tournament. We are still not sure if we could afford the time for doing a more complicated style tournament on the second day, when we have an exhibition match. Another reason we chose the single elimination tournament, is that the finals in the single elimination is the finals, while in other matching systems, the final game might become a dull game. We know that we are sacrificing accuracy, and do want to know what the participants (and might-be-participants) think about how the tournament should be organized. #This includes opinions on how should remote attendance be allowed PS. Also, this style, Swiss for the preliminary and single-elimination for the final, is common in Japan. World Computer Shogi Championship uses the same style for example. Uhmm, I think you are mistaking with another tournament, as the finals in WCSC is round robin. By the way, WCSC is a three day event, with around 50 programs. For the WCSC, we have two preliminary tournaments in (modified) Swiss, and the finals is round robin. -- Shunsuke SOEDA shunsuke.so...@aist.go.jp ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup)
I see AI Igo was one of the prizes. If it was the new AI Igo 17, it has the Monte Carlo engine. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Hiroshi Yamashita Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:27 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: Results of the 2nd UEC Cup (Re: [computer-go] UEC cup) I put some photos. http://yssaya.web.fc2.com/photo/uec2008/uec2008.html Kato's eight PlayStation 3 was impressive. http://yssaya.web.fc2.com/photo/uec2008/1213/Htmls/PICT2802.html Hiroshi Yamashita ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
