Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
Can you put in the game description: really bad, only play if you're patient and put in quicker time controls? s. On Mar 28, 2015 3:25 PM, hughperkins2 hughperki...@gmail.com wrote: You can name name a specific opponent, and then your bot will play against it. Automatch works, but tends to result in lots of people being forced to play your bot, and then leaving the game, after the bot took ages to play in some ridiculous location, which is kind of embarrassing :-P ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] Learning from CGOS
What elements did you like about CGOS and what do you wish for? I've begun writing a new version from scratch that isn't TCL based. With the aim for future use and also open source and open to public commits. -Josh ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
You can name name a specific opponent, and then your bot will play against it. Automatch works, but tends to result in lots of people being forced to play your bot, and then leaving the game, after the bot took ages to play in some ridiculous location, which is kind of embarrassing :-P ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
I can offer you a factor of 2 speedup... s. On Mar 28, 2015 7:59 PM, hughperkins2 hughperki...@gmail.com wrote: By the way, for mcts you dont need time controls. Each move takes the same amount of time, since you just do n playouts, and choose n as you like. I think my playouts took 2s, which was enoufht for 4 playouts i suppose, but it was in novemebr, dont remember clearly... It was obvious that adding more playouts didnt increase the strength libearly, more like logarithmically, or, at best as the square root, and i dont want to program heursitics by hand, not going to get a papet out of that :-) The atari paper looks interesting. Kind of dabbling in that a bit... By the way, for mcts you dont need time controls. Each move takes the same amount of time, since you just do n playouts, and choose n as you like. I think my playouts took 2s, which was enoufht for 4 playouts i suppose, but it was in novemebr, dont remember clearly... It was obvious that adding more playouts didnt increase the strength libearly, more like logarithmically, or, at best as the square root, and i dont want to program heursitics by hand, not going to get a papet out of that :- out of that :-) The atari paper looks interesting. Kind of dabbling in that a bit... ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
Automatch is automatch: the other person doesnt choose to play rhe bot. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
By the way, for mcts you dont need time controls. Each move takes the same amount of time, since you just do n playouts, and choose n as you like. I think my playouts took 2s, which was enoufht for 4 playouts i suppose, but it was in novemebr, dont remember clearly... It was obvious that adding more playouts didnt increase the strength libearly, more like logarithmically, or, at best as the square root, and i dont want to program heursitics by hand, not going to get a papet out of that :-) The atari paper looks interesting. Kind of dabbling in that a bit... By the way, for mcts you dont need time controls. Each move takes the same amount of time, since you just do n playouts, and choose n as you like. I think my playouts took 2s, which was enoufht for 4 playouts i suppose, but it was in novemebr, dont remember clearly... It was obvious that adding more playouts didnt increase the strength libearly, more like logarithmically, or, at best as the square root, and i dont want to program heursitics by hand, not going to get a papet out of that :- out of that :-) The atari paper looks interesting. Kind of dabbling in that a bit... ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
But my guess based on ad hoc tests during the development is that the contribution of basic playout heuristics and RAVE+priors may be about 1:1 (with large pattern priors giving further extra boost). I'll have to start reading papers on those concepts then, I guess. :) Thanks Petr! ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
What does that translate to on CGOS 13x13? I have a hard time estimating how strong my bot is in real terms. How exactly do you measure the strength? Rated games on KGS? Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 28.03.2015 um 12:33 schrieb Hugh Perkins hughperk...@gmail.com: Still, it would be nice if the computer could learn the heuristics itself, by self-play. Which is why my bot is still stuck on 25k rating :-D At least, that's my excuse :-P On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Urban Hafner cont...@urbanhafner.com wrote: But my guess based on ad hoc tests during the development is that the contribution of basic playout heuristics and RAVE+priors may be about 1:1 (with large pattern priors giving further extra boost). I'll have to start reading papers on those concepts then, I guess. :) Thanks Petr! ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
Well, what I did was connect my bot to kgs a few times, and watch as it go repeatedly beaten by anything much better than 25k :-) Normally, there's a few 'randombots' there to start with. Once you can beat those (which is harder than it sounds, or it is if your program has bugs, which mine did :-P ), then you can work your way up through mildly harder ones. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] [ANN] Michi - 15x15 ~6k KGS in 540 lines of Python?code
I just realized - you mentioned that you are using Python to run it - if you use PyPy instead, you should get about 3x speedup or more. That was a great suggestion! With PyPy michi now takes less than one minute per move. Maybe I'll play it some more.. mr. Andrea Carta ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
Still, it would be nice if the computer could learn the heuristics itself, by self-play. Which is why my bot is still stuck on 25k rating :-D At least, that's my excuse :-P On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Urban Hafner cont...@urbanhafner.com wrote: But my guess based on ad hoc tests during the development is that the contribution of basic playout heuristics and RAVE+priors may be about 1:1 (with large pattern priors giving further extra boost). I'll have to start reading papers on those concepts then, I guess. :) Thanks Petr! ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
Exactly you don't check super ko in the playouts and you generally stop playouts at 3 * boardsize * boardsize. But once you start adding more logic into the playouts (like not playing in single point eyes) they tend not to hit this limit. Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 28.03.2015 um 11:53 schrieb hughperkins2 hughperki...@gmail.com: Oh wait, superko check is not that cheap, but it is so rare, you can probably ignore it in playouts, and jist check befote submitting a move to the server. If its superko, then jist pass pethaps. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Hugh Perkins hughperk...@gmail.com wrote: Well, what I did was connect my bot to kgs a few times, and watch as it go repeatedly beaten by anything much better than 25k :-) Normally, there's a few 'randombots' there to start with. Once you can beat those (which is harder than it sounds, or it is if your program has bugs, which mine did :-P ), then you can work your way up through mildly harder ones. Alright. Thank you! Do you have to manually pair your program with another one or does the server pick an opponent automatically for you? I haven't used KGS for a long, long time you know. Urban -- Blog: http://bettong.net/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/ ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Urban Hafner cont...@urbanhafner.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Hugh Perkins hughperk...@gmail.com wrote: Well, what I did was connect my bot to kgs a few times, and watch as it go repeatedly beaten by anything much better than 25k :-) Normally, there's a few 'randombots' there to start with. Once you can beat those (which is harder than it sounds, or it is if your program has bugs, which mine did :-P ), then you can work your way up through mildly harder ones. Alright. Thank you! Do you have to manually pair your program with another one or does the server pick an opponent automatically for you? I haven't used KGS for a long, long time you know. So it seems that the server is supposed to automatically pair you with others, right? Is this the correct way to set it up? verbose=true engine=iomrascalai-0.1.7 -r chinese -t 8 -e amaf -p no-eyes name=Imrscl password=VERYSECRET room=Computer Go mode=auto automatch.rank=25k undo=f The bot connects just fine according to the server according to the log output but then stops at FINER: No games to join. Starting automatch.. Do I just have to wait or is there something else I can or should do? Also, how do I make the bot appear at the top of the list in the computer go room as being open to play? Urban -- Blog: http://bettong.net/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/ ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
Well you could check if a field is empty or not but you could also check if you're putting stones in a dead area or if it would be a suicide, etc. On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 10:15:32AM +0100, ?lvaro Begu? wrote: I am not sure I understand the question. The only thing that is typically not checked in the playouts is superko. What other validity checks are you performing? Álvaro. On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 9:54 AM, holger krekel hol...@merlinux.eu wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 08:51 +0100, folkert wrote: Hi, For a monte carlo search, are only valid moves performed? Or does it work from beginning to the end of a playout using whatever free position is available on the board? I am also interested in the question. Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Do you have a reference, some context for the 25K playouts? holger Folkert van Heusden -- -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- about me:http://holgerkrekel.net/about-me/ contracting: http://merlinux.eu ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go Folkert van Heusden -- MultiTail is a versatile tool for watching logfiles and output of commands. Filtering, coloring, merging, diff-view, etc. http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/ -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
20 playouts is a bit slow Folkert. But I've been there, too! Now my bot is at around 1000 19x19 pps and 5000 on 9x9 (but I also check to not play into single point eyes). That's still quite slow and further optimisation will be required. But OTOH on a 4 core machine without UCT (only the AMAF) heuristic I get around 1250ELO on CGOS 13x13 ( http://cgos.boardspace.net/13x13/cross/Imrscl-017-A-N.html). Urban On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 10:15:32AM +0100, Álvaro Begué wrote: I am not sure I understand the question. The only thing that is typically not checked in the playouts is superko. What other validity checks are you performing? There is a few: (i) No single stone suicide. Can't think of how to playout without that, you wouldn't know when to stop playing. (ii) No multi stone suicide. Sometimes in the fastest implementations this rule is relaxed (i.e. you proclaim that you are using Tromp-Taylor or New Zealand rules). But in real-world engines, you need to check things like self-atari or 2-liberty semeai and then a suicide check naturally falls out from that too. (iii) No ko. This is a pretty cheap check, and without it again your playouts may end up looping. BTW, the fastest playouts are probably done by libego and that's open source. But as I said in the past - consider not optimizing first; write some reasonable playout heuristics first and *then* profile your code. Petr Baudis ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Blog: http://bettong.net/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/ ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
20 playouts per second is pretty slow. Are you sure youre not just looping around endlessly for 1 moves or something? Playing in a dead area is legal, as is filling your own eyes etc. Only suicide, and ko is illegal. Even superko is a pretty cheap check. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 11:45:48AM +0100, Urban Hafner wrote: Good to know Petr! Where does the strength come from? Sophisticated playouts or a search algorithm or both? Frankly, I don't know for sure! The downside of Michi's slowness is that playtesting takes too many resources so configuration performance exploration is awkward. But my guess based on ad hoc tests during the development is that the contribution of basic playout heuristics and RAVE+priors may be about 1:1 (with large pattern priors giving further extra boost). Petr Baudis ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Do you have a reference, some context for the 25K playouts? Look for the topic What's a good playout speed? in the mailinglist archives. http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/ Folkert van Heusden -- Curious about the inner workings of your car? Then check O2OO: it'll tell you all that there is to know about your car's engine! http://www.vanheusden.com/O2OO/ -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 08:51 +0100, folkert wrote: Hi, For a monte carlo search, are only valid moves performed? Or does it work from beginning to the end of a playout using whatever free position is available on the board? I am also interested in the question. Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Do you have a reference, some context for the 25K playouts? holger Folkert van Heusden -- -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- about me:http://holgerkrekel.net/about-me/ contracting: http://merlinux.eu ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
I am not sure I understand the question. The only thing that is typically not checked in the playouts is superko. What other validity checks are you performing? Álvaro. On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 9:54 AM, holger krekel hol...@merlinux.eu wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 08:51 +0100, folkert wrote: Hi, For a monte carlo search, are only valid moves performed? Or does it work from beginning to the end of a playout using whatever free position is available on the board? I am also interested in the question. Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Do you have a reference, some context for the 25K playouts? holger Folkert van Heusden -- -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- about me:http://holgerkrekel.net/about-me/ contracting: http://merlinux.eu ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
hi! On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 11:30:37AM +0100, folkert wrote: Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Do you have a reference, some context for the 25K playouts? Look for the topic What's a good playout speed? in the mailinglist archives. http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/ On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 09:14:24AM +0100, Urban Hafner wrote: ..snip.. Right now I'm at ~2000pps on 9x9 and ~1000pps on 19x19. This is for playouts with simple ko and suicide checks and no concurrency. Now I wonder if this is fast enough to even start thinking about implementing a UCT/MCTS player Michi does 30 playouts/s (sic! single thread) on 9x9 on my oldish i3 notebook, and can be much stronger than GNUGo on that board size. I think people worry about playout speed too much. ;-) Petr Baudis ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
Hi, For a monte carlo search, are only valid moves performed? Or does it work from beginning to the end of a playout using whatever free position is available on the board? Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Folkert van Heusden -- -- Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] What's a good playout speed?
Good to know Petr! Where does the strength come from? Sophisticated playouts or a search algorithm or both? Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 28.03.2015 um 11:38 schrieb Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz: hi! On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 11:30:37AM +0100, folkert wrote: Because I read here that people can do 25k playouts per second while my program can only do ~ 20 per second when doing full validity checks on all steps. Do you have a reference, some context for the 25K playouts? Look for the topic What's a good playout speed? in the mailinglist archives. http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/ On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 09:14:24AM +0100, Urban Hafner wrote: ..snip.. Right now I'm at ~2000pps on 9x9 and ~1000pps on 19x19. This is for playouts with simple ko and suicide checks and no concurrency. Now I wonder if this is fast enough to even start thinking about implementing a UCT/MCTS player Michi does 30 playouts/s (sic! single thread) on 9x9 on my oldish i3 notebook, and can be much stronger than GNUGo on that board size. I think people worry about playout speed too much. ;-) Petr Baudis ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] monte carlo search; all valid moves?
Oh wait, superko check is not that cheap, but it is so rare, you can probably ignore it in playouts, and jist check befote submitting a move to the server. If its superko, then jist pass pethaps. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
