Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
Linux is a time sinkhole to someone not familiar with it.You are probably almost unaware of the huge investment in time you spent learning windows because the lessons happened gradually over many years and you don't give it a second thought. You just "know it" and forgot that you had to "learn it." Funny someone should bring this up. I was a Windows guy for all but the last 5 years or so. I've switched to Linux, gradually at first, then one day when Windows pissed me, I said enough is enough! Sure I had a few things that stopped working (like my old trusted SCSI film scanner) but after a few years, even those started working in Linux. Yet what recently surprised me was that I was given a Windows machine and asked to do something that I used to have no problem: program in Visual Studio. I had no idea how difficult it would turn out to be. It seemed that nothing fits, nor was it where I would expect it to be. Like having 2 left hands and bumbling between them. Little by little, things started coming back to me. In about 2 hours I started to find my way around. Given a few days, I'd probably remember most. What I'm trying to say is that if you take that gradual learning path on Linux, then Windows seems a time sink-hole that no-one in their right mind would want to wither their days with. Oh, by the way, I feel that way with Mac user interface. I can't find my way around there if my life depended on it! So, while I do think Linux is the best :), I guess in the end it comes down to which OS you know better yourself. A. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
I found the easiest thing for me is to use Linux and just be happy. If you honestly must have the very latest gizmo yesterday, then you can get on the Microsoft hamster wheel and let them pull you along by your nose. But there is a kind of exhilarating freedom that comes with Linux. It's not total freedom because it has it's hamster wheel too. Ubuntu has an upgrade about every 6 months and the same mentality can grip you, that you must keep up with the upgrades. And Linux tries to support the gimmicks and gizmo's too, but they are usually about a year or so behind. I don't care about those, that's not the Linux mentality in general but I do think Linux people can be a little fear driven too, I know there is a strong push to "beat" Microsoft and gain the hearts and minds of the desktop users. But do any of these things seriously add any happiness to your life? I am basically a hacker and I want to hack away. Linux is by far the best platform for that and the least stressful. - Don > I am a full-time Linux systems admin, and I use it for > much of my personal use also. There's a lot to love > about it, but I still keep a Windoze system around for > several reasons. > > One is driver support. I happen to have a nice > (affordable) color laser printer, which I have never > been able to get working on Linux. So whenever I need > to print something, I transfer to Windoze. > > The second area is webcam support w/ yahoo messenger. > Pidgin supports neither webcams nor photo sharing. > Most of the folks I chat with are, sadly, > Windoze-bound. There might be a linux-centric > replacement, but if there's a solution wihch is > windoze-to-linux interoperable, I haven't found it. > > Lastly, several Go programs are available only on > Windows. I hope this changes soon. Last I checked, the > WINE versions looked rather ugly. > > I'm not bashing Linux - I use it and love it - but > there are some holes yet. > > Part of the problem, I suspect, is that manufacturers > have no idea how many Linux users are out there. > Practically every PC sold has a copy of Windoze > pre-installed, so their numbers are inflated. When you > trash that copy and install Linux or Solaris or > NetBSD, there is no obvious uptick in sales figures > to prompt manufacturers of printers, cameras, and > other peripherals to take notice; nothing is > subtracted from Microsoft's coffers, so your opinion > of Windoze isn't noticed. > > > > > Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > “Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state > education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit > obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.” > > Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] > > > > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
--- Mark Boon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 8-apr-08, at 15:13, Don Dailey wrote: > > >> Cost-of-ownership is different for everyone of > course, but despite > >> Linux being free it never seemed worth it to me. > > My main point is that MS has been very successful > at making you > > feel the > > way you do. > > I don't want to pretend that I'm not susceptible to > marketing, as I > am as much as the next person. But in this case I > don't believe it's > something that is MS's doing. I have made a few > serious attempts to > use Linux and found it a great sink-hole of time. It > was either > because some devices weren't working properly or not > supported > altogether or the software I needed wasn't available > in easy to > install modules, if it was available in the first > place. I have used > Linux for work and it's great if you have a > full-time sys-admin that > makes sure everything works. Then again, that's true > for Windows too. I am a full-time Linux systems admin, and I use it for much of my personal use also. There's a lot to love about it, but I still keep a Windoze system around for several reasons. One is driver support. I happen to have a nice (affordable) color laser printer, which I have never been able to get working on Linux. So whenever I need to print something, I transfer to Windoze. The second area is webcam support w/ yahoo messenger. Pidgin supports neither webcams nor photo sharing. Most of the folks I chat with are, sadly, Windoze-bound. There might be a linux-centric replacement, but if there's a solution wihch is windoze-to-linux interoperable, I haven't found it. Lastly, several Go programs are available only on Windows. I hope this changes soon. Last I checked, the WINE versions looked rather ugly. I'm not bashing Linux - I use it and love it - but there are some holes yet. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that manufacturers have no idea how many Linux users are out there. Practically every PC sold has a copy of Windoze pre-installed, so their numbers are inflated. When you trash that copy and install Linux or Solaris or NetBSD, there is no obvious uptick in sales figures to prompt manufacturers of printers, cameras, and other peripherals to take notice; nothing is subtracted from Microsoft's coffers, so your opinion of Windoze isn't noticed. Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love, was: Paper for AAAI (David Silver) PDF problem
Christoph Birk wrote: > On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, steve uurtamo wrote: >> There isn't, and this is actually a fortunate thing, yet any way to >> use unix without at some point needing to use a command-line >> tool. This is what will keep it out of the hands of consumers for >> a long time to come, but I think that it's an inherent fact of a >> secure operating system. > > That's why Mac is the best :-) Mac is Unix underneath and I'm a big Unix advocate. I don't discriminate much between Unix variants and there are many. But if you know one, you are immediately comfortable with another. - Don > You have the nice GUI stuff, if you want you can use an xterm > and you can run 'Parallels' (Parallels.com) ie. Windows at the > same time. > > Christoph > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
Mark Boon wrote: > > On 8-apr-08, at 15:13, Don Dailey wrote: > >>> Cost-of-ownership is different for everyone of course, but despite >>> Linux being free it never seemed worth it to me. >> My main point is that MS has been very successful at making you feel the >> way you do. > > I don't want to pretend that I'm not susceptible to marketing, as I am > as much as the next person. But in this case I don't believe it's > something that is MS's doing. I have made a few serious attempts to > use Linux and found it a great sink-hole of time. It was either > because some devices weren't working properly or not supported > altogether or the software I needed wasn't available in easy to > install modules, if it was available in the first place. I have used > Linux for work and it's great if you have a full-time sys-admin that > makes sure everything works. Then again, that's true for Windows too. We are all susceptible to marketing, even when we understand how it works, and I know this applies to me too. Some just won't admit it. Linux nowadays installs like a dream.You also have to consider that most hardware companies work for Microsoft under the table in one way or the other, so it's amazing that Linux supports the vast majority of devices. And I have heard that Windows does not install as easily as Linux. You are generally isolated from know this because you almost always buy a machine that is pre-configured to work.All the major manufactures such as Dell and others are not going to sell you a machine that is broken, they work in cooperation with Microsoft and the component manufactures to deliver something that is going to work. But I have rarely had difficulty making a linux machine work pretty quickly, but I know there are notable exceptions with some people. This has improved hugely over time and rarely happens now. Even when it does you can almost always solve the problem in those rare cases by browsing the web. Also, a lot of hardware and component manufactures now cooperate with the Linux world to a much greater extent than they used to. Linux is a time sinkhole to someone not familiar with it.You are probably almost unaware of the huge investment in time you spent learning windows because the lessons happened gradually over many years and you don't give it a second thought. You just "know it" and forgot that you had to "learn it." - Don > > Mark > > > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
On 8-apr-08, at 15:13, Don Dailey wrote: Cost-of-ownership is different for everyone of course, but despite Linux being free it never seemed worth it to me. My main point is that MS has been very successful at making you feel the way you do. I don't want to pretend that I'm not susceptible to marketing, as I am as much as the next person. But in this case I don't believe it's something that is MS's doing. I have made a few serious attempts to use Linux and found it a great sink-hole of time. It was either because some devices weren't working properly or not supported altogether or the software I needed wasn't available in easy to install modules, if it was available in the first place. I have used Linux for work and it's great if you have a full-time sys-admin that makes sure everything works. Then again, that's true for Windows too. Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love, was: Paper for AAAI (David Silver) PDF problem
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, steve uurtamo wrote: There isn't, and this is actually a fortunate thing, yet any way to use unix without at some point needing to use a command-line tool. This is what will keep it out of the hands of consumers for a long time to come, but I think that it's an inherent fact of a secure operating system. That's why Mac is the best :-) You have the nice GUI stuff, if you want you can use an xterm and you can run 'Parallels' (Parallels.com) ie. Windows at the same time. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
Mark Boon wrote: > Yes, you do need to factor in the cost of the OS. I have an official > version of Windows XP, I haven't heard much good about Vista. I > believe it costs something like $150 when buying separate. It's not > exactly free when buying a PC either, of course. Yes, they do try to > limit using it on only one computer. > > Cost-of-ownership is different for everyone of course, but despite > Linux being free it never seemed worth it to me. My main point is that MS has been very successful at making you feel the way you do. By the way, has anyone seen the Philip Morris commercials?This is totally mind numbing - they have calculated that the general public is completely ignorant and stupid.Their web site has a big section on "smoking and health" and urges you to quit smoking! They say, "there is no safe cigarette." Wow, the Philip Morris really cares about us! It makes me want to buy their cigarettes even though I don't smoke! - Don > > Mark > > > On 8-apr-08, at 12:00, Don Dailey wrote: > >> >> >> Mark Boon wrote: >>> >>> On 8-apr-08, at 08:50, steve uurtamo wrote: >>> There's another way, and it's not too bad, depending upon how often you want to switch operating systems. Get a second drive. >>> >>> Oh, that is so passé! ;-) >>> >>> I gladly pay $80 for VMWare Fusion and can use whatever OS pleases me >>> at the same time as Mac OS. The windows can even interact with >>> copy-paste and drag-and-drop. I just haven't found a reason yet why >>> I'd install Linux or FreeBSD. Who knows someone will write a Go >>> program that only runs in Linux that I'd like to have? >> If you have Mac OS you already have a reasonable OS so there is no >> reason to go to Linux. >> >> But how do you get Windows on VMWare?Do you use an illegal copy or >> do you buy a new copy of Windows for installation? >> >> How much does it cost for Vista if I were to go to the store to buy a >> "legal" copy?I would never do that unless my job or some other >> compelling reason required this, but just to put things into >> perspective, how much would it cost? >> >> I don't have a problem with paying for VMWare, and there are other >> simulators too that are open source) and I would even put Windows on it >> for those rare occasions when I could use windows, but not if I have to >> support MS to do it.I'm pretty sure Windows forbids you run a payed >> for copy of their OS on more than 1 computer at a time without paying >> them. >> >> Years ago I used VMWare at my job and it worked fine but it's still not >> quite the same as running a dedicated OS.But I hear it's not bad >> these days. >> >> - Don >> >> >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> computer-go mailing list >>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> ___ >> computer-go mailing list >> computer-go@computer-go.org >> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
Yes, you do need to factor in the cost of the OS. I have an official version of Windows XP, I haven't heard much good about Vista. I believe it costs something like $150 when buying separate. It's not exactly free when buying a PC either, of course. Yes, they do try to limit using it on only one computer. Cost-of-ownership is different for everyone of course, but despite Linux being free it never seemed worth it to me. Mark On 8-apr-08, at 12:00, Don Dailey wrote: Mark Boon wrote: On 8-apr-08, at 08:50, steve uurtamo wrote: There's another way, and it's not too bad, depending upon how often you want to switch operating systems. Get a second drive. Oh, that is so passé! ;-) I gladly pay $80 for VMWare Fusion and can use whatever OS pleases me at the same time as Mac OS. The windows can even interact with copy-paste and drag-and-drop. I just haven't found a reason yet why I'd install Linux or FreeBSD. Who knows someone will write a Go program that only runs in Linux that I'd like to have? If you have Mac OS you already have a reasonable OS so there is no reason to go to Linux. But how do you get Windows on VMWare?Do you use an illegal copy or do you buy a new copy of Windows for installation? How much does it cost for Vista if I were to go to the store to buy a "legal" copy?I would never do that unless my job or some other compelling reason required this, but just to put things into perspective, how much would it cost? I don't have a problem with paying for VMWare, and there are other simulators too that are open source) and I would even put Windows on it for those rare occasions when I could use windows, but not if I have to support MS to do it.I'm pretty sure Windows forbids you run a payed for copy of their OS on more than 1 computer at a time without paying them. Years ago I used VMWare at my job and it worked fine but it's still not quite the same as running a dedicated OS.But I hear it's not bad these days. - Don Mark - --- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
Mark Boon wrote: > > On 8-apr-08, at 08:50, steve uurtamo wrote: > >> There's another way, and it's not too bad, depending upon how >> often you want to switch operating systems. >> >> Get a second drive. > > Oh, that is so passé! ;-) > > I gladly pay $80 for VMWare Fusion and can use whatever OS pleases me > at the same time as Mac OS. The windows can even interact with > copy-paste and drag-and-drop. I just haven't found a reason yet why > I'd install Linux or FreeBSD. Who knows someone will write a Go > program that only runs in Linux that I'd like to have? If you have Mac OS you already have a reasonable OS so there is no reason to go to Linux. But how do you get Windows on VMWare?Do you use an illegal copy or do you buy a new copy of Windows for installation? How much does it cost for Vista if I were to go to the store to buy a "legal" copy?I would never do that unless my job or some other compelling reason required this, but just to put things into perspective, how much would it cost? I don't have a problem with paying for VMWare, and there are other simulators too that are open source) and I would even put Windows on it for those rare occasions when I could use windows, but not if I have to support MS to do it.I'm pretty sure Windows forbids you run a payed for copy of their OS on more than 1 computer at a time without paying them. Years ago I used VMWare at my job and it worked fine but it's still not quite the same as running a dedicated OS.But I hear it's not bad these days. - Don > > Mark > > > > > ___ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love, was: Paper for AAAI (David Silver) PDF problem
steve uurtamo wrote: >> That's the real problem with Windows. I need a double boot, place >> the OS on a FAT32 partition and have a copy of every file + an >> image of the installed partition. Every day I fight against the >> operating system I have paid for and if the OS doesn't let me >> change it the nice way I have to do it the hard way. If I was >> starting now, I would be a Linux user. >> > > There's another way, and it's not too bad, depending upon how > often you want to switch operating systems. > > Get a second drive. > This is my recommendation for anyone wanting to switch as a way to transition away from windows.Earlier I mentioned that I bought a laptop for my wife. I also bought a very compact external 160 GB USB drive.It fits in my shirt pocket. I installed linux on that drive. Now I have a laptop that is totally unchanged for windows, but if I plug the USB drive and boot, it comes up in linux. I rarely ever actually use the laptop but when we go on trips my wife likes to shop and I don't, so I could stay at the hotel (or sometimes in the car) and hack away happily. The drive of course also works on my desktop machine, so I am considering to leave it plugged in to my desktop, and put the home directory on that drive. It's probably not as fast as my SATA drive on the desktop, but that is just not an issue. In this way I would actually have the same environment on BOTH machines (but not at the same time.)Since both machines are core 2 duo's and both have the same version of linux installed, it would pretty convenient. The hard drive on my desktop could become a backup of everything in /home. As a bonus I can access the windows partitions and I use this to backup things my wife wants to preserve. I don't know if I can write to her drive, but I don't care about that. Of course the external drive is not readable from windows but I have heard there are drivers for that, but I don't really care about that either. > I have been burnt by windows more times than I care to have > been (twice), so I decided to do the safest thing possible -- > I don't even cross the streams. I just separate the OSes onto > physically distinct drives, and in my case on different controller > types, which makes it super-easy to switch between them. > In my opinion that is the best way. It's no longer painful to switch to Linux because almost every application you could ever want has a high quality Linux equivalent that is usually already part of the distribution (you don't have to buy it.) There is no problem reading and writing Microsoft office files which are commonly seen in email attachments. And it's very rare to buy a piece of hardware that doesn't work in linux. There is a movement to get away from Office and the proprietary formats that it entails, I hope that takes hold but even if it doesn't you can read and write doc files and the other office formats. If it's all about buying commercial software and that's mainly what you are in to, then Linux is probably not your best choice.No matter what OS you choose, you will gain something and lose something in the trade. It's a matter of what is important to you and for some people it's a matter of personal freedom, with MS you always feel a little locked in, constrained and controlled. For instance you don't really own your copy of the OS like you do a book you might buy, you basically lease it. A friend of mine recently switched over to Linux because as he puts it, "I'm tired of buying the OS over and over again" which basically you do every time you buy a new computer. Linux users are upset because it's difficult to even buy a computer without paying Microsoft. Unix people call this the "microsoft tax." Only once was I able to buy a computer without MS pre-installed. The retailer always told me it was "free" and came as part of the computer, but of course that is nonsense, they have to pay MS for the OS and it's just built into the price. They were slapped on the wrist at one time for this, but as you see it didn't really stick. Those are the kind of reasons that I don't even want to deal with them.I no longer buy machines from retailers, I have to build my own just to bypass the Microsoft tax.That is grossly unfair because they report number of sales which include all the computers that people buy with MS on it, but then immediately reformat the hard drive to install a more serious OS and I refuse to pay them or support them. In the case of the laptop, not a problem. It was an honest purchase, not coerced. > Yes, you can modify the boot loader on the main (windows) drive > so that it recognizes the second drive, but I do something even > less error-prone -- I just swap which drive is considered the boot > drive in my BIOS at boot time. This takes about 2 seconds and > does the obvious thing that I want -- if I'm s
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
On 8-apr-08, at 08:50, steve uurtamo wrote: There's another way, and it's not too bad, depending upon how often you want to switch operating systems. Get a second drive. Oh, that is so passé! ;-) I gladly pay $80 for VMWare Fusion and can use whatever OS pleases me at the same time as Mac OS. The windows can even interact with copy- paste and drag-and-drop. I just haven't found a reason yet why I'd install Linux or FreeBSD. Who knows someone will write a Go program that only runs in Linux that I'd like to have? Mark ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] now: operating systems and love, was: Paper for AAAI (David Silver) PDF problem
> That's the real problem with Windows. I need a double boot, place > the OS on a FAT32 partition and have a copy of every file + an > image of the installed partition. Every day I fight against the > operating system I have paid for and if the OS doesn't let me > change it the nice way I have to do it the hard way. If I was > starting now, I would be a Linux user. There's another way, and it's not too bad, depending upon how often you want to switch operating systems. Get a second drive. I have been burnt by windows more times than I care to have been (twice), so I decided to do the safest thing possible -- I don't even cross the streams. I just separate the OSes onto physically distinct drives, and in my case on different controller types, which makes it super-easy to switch between them. Yes, you can modify the boot loader on the main (windows) drive so that it recognizes the second drive, but I do something even less error-prone -- I just swap which drive is considered the boot drive in my BIOS at boot time. This takes about 2 seconds and does the obvious thing that I want -- if I'm spending weeks in FreeBSD, I don't have to do a thing until for some crazy reason I want to switch back to windows (usually to play a game of some kind, or to use some esoteric feature of my peripherals that nobody has bothered to reverse-engineer yet). Most windows-esque tasks are handleable in a modern unix system: abiword and openoffice do a reasonable job at emulating word and office, respectively (and openoffice is about as bloated a chunk of code as you might expect as a result) can read and save files from/into the relevant formats, and have about the same ease/unease of use. Gimp is a reasonable clone of photoshop, although if you're a serious designer you already have a mac and over $1200 worth of adobe software and are doing it the right way. There isn't, and this is actually a fortunate thing, yet any way to use unix without at some point needing to use a command-line tool. This is what will keep it out of the hands of consumers for a long time to come, but I think that it's an inherent fact of a secure operating system. Anything that runs in the same way that vmware runs is pretty cool, although I'm not aware of anything mature and free that does the same thing as well as it does (i'm sure that someone will correct me on this point.) If the company you work for will pay for it, just tell them that you need a copy to get work done. As of a few years ago, it was working really well (vmware, that is -- the tactic is timeless). The reason that NetBSD is so good is for a similar reason to the reason that you like Windows95. It is tiny. Extremely tiny. Moreso, it will run on just about any hardware that you can still get to power up. Unfortunately, it comes with just enough tools to *compile* everything that you need to use it. So it's a fantastic way to learn about unix, but not practical for people who want something that has, say, a beautiful looking window system with knobs to control everything about their operating system right out of the box (not having these things is a good thing in my mind, though). The reason that it isn't practical for most people is because you're going to need to compile that window system, and there will be a large and painfully recursive tree of dependencies that will need to be compiled first. If you enjoy this kind of one-time masochism in the pursuit of knowledge, then it's well worth your time. Linux is starting to be a good compromise for most folks, and ubuntu is pretty popular these days, but I still think that FreeBSD has the best compromise between features and kernel sanity for someone moderately comfortable with unix. I've seem windows users semi-easily switch to ubuntu without regret or too much of a learning curve, but they will eventually find something that doesn't work and/or is extremely difficult to do without using windows. It's just an issue of compromise -- people are so used to rebooting their broken operating systems that they've forgotten that it's not something that you're supposed to have to do! Unix boxes can brag about 10+ year uptimes, for crying out loud. s. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
