Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
Ingo Althöfer wrote: Concerning the next Computer Olympiad and having in mind the discussion on the last one (how fair is 7.5 komi for 9x9 computer games?) the WMSG scoring should be worth to be discussed for 9x9. Nobody will want such a scoring in computer go. It is not a matter of adding one line of code, like Michael Williams suggested. This rule means that passing first gives a one-point advantage to White. Since playouts don't pass early, MC programs cannot cope well with this rule. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
On Sun, 2008-12-07 at 12:12 +0100, Rémi Coulom wrote: Ingo Althöfer wrote: Concerning the next Computer Olympiad and having in mind the discussion on the last one (how fair is 7.5 komi for 9x9 computer games?) the WMSG scoring should be worth to be discussed for 9x9. Nobody will want such a scoring in computer go. It is not a matter of adding one line of code, like Michael Williams suggested. This rule means that passing first gives a one-point advantage to White. Since playouts don't pass early, MC programs cannot cope well with this rule. This is true. And it's even worse with MC programs that do not distinguish the magnitude of the win. One solutions, which is not very satisfying, is to internally set komi pessimistically. This of course will weaken the play a little. Has anyone done a study on how much difference it makes if you set komi an extra 1 or 2 points to your disadvantage? - Don Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
Ingo Althöfer wrote: Michael Goetze wrote: I doubt that this rule has a significant effect on playing strength, either of computers or humans. After all, the average effect is about half a point per game, which you probably won't notice below the level of amateur 6d or 7d. You are right, and I did not state clearly what I had in mind: play on small boards (like 9x9 or even 7x7). Especially, there Seki situations are (much) more frequent than on larger boards. I think this effect is often overstated. None of the lines believed to be optimal play on 7x7 ends in a seki. http://senseis.xmp.net/?7x7BestPlay http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/java/go/7x7.sgf Concerning the next Computer Olympiad and having in mind the discussion on the last one (how fair is 7.5 komi for 9x9 computer games?) the WMSG scoring should be worth to be discussed for 9x9. I wasn't subscribed to the list at the time, but I've read that discussion, and must say I consider many of the things said there to be silly. If you have a problem because you're using komi of 7.5, and the correct komi is probably 7, then changing the komi to 6.5 won't solve that problem at all! Similarily, there will be a komi which is correct for 9x9 in a game theoretical sense for WMSG rules, and it might be 7, or 6, or 8, but it certainly won't be 6.5 or 7.5. So, please, don't try to alleviate the symptoms of this problem. Instead, solve it at the root: change the komi to 7, and come up with a tournament system which can deal with jigos. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
Ingo Althöfer wrote: Ok, that is a technical answer. But ... ... what does the rule change mean for strengths of programs - especially in play against (strong) humans? Would this rule help the computers or the humans? I doubt that this rule has a significant effect on playing strength, either of computers or humans. After all, the average effect is about half a point per game, which you probably won't notice below the level of amateur 6d or 7d. And since there are currently no programs playing at that level, it's impossible to say how they would be affected... Positions where the WMSG rules (as a whole, not just this simple element) differ more significantly from normal rules, such as seki with one-sided dame, are very rare. So I think this is pretty much a non-topic... Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
It should make almost no difference, since on odd sized boards with area counting the game result will be the same unless there is a seki with an odd number of shared liberties. This kind of seki is rare. I'd guess less than one in a hundred games ends with such a seki on the board. AGA rules also have the effect of changing the komi depending on which side makes the last pass. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:32 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring Michael Williams wrote: Seems like MC and MCTS programs would cope just fine after that one line of code is added. Ok, that is a technical answer. But ... ... what does the rule change mean for strengths of programs - especially in play against (strong) humans? Would this rule help the computers or the humans? Ingo. ... WMSG-Scoring: area scoring, super-ko, komi 6.5 and one special rule: When White is the first player to pass than komi is changed from 6.5 to 7.5 . -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
David Fotland wrote: AGA rules also have the effect of changing the komi depending on which side makes the last pass. No, they don't. AGA rules are area-scoring rules and the komi is fixed. (They also provide a method to determine the area-scoring result via territory counting, but that's irrelevant.) WMSG rules are different. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
When White is the first player to pass than komi is changed from 6.5 to 7.5 . On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:02 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It should make almost no difference, since on odd sized boards with area counting the game result will be the same unless there is a seki with an odd number of shared liberties. This kind of seki is rare. I'd guess less than one in a hundred games ends with such a seki on the board. AGA rules also have the effect of changing the komi depending on which side makes the last pass. Is that right? Area scoring no neutral intersections odd board surface - odd komi for jigo (typically 5, 7 or 9). So, what you're saying applies for 5.5 against 6.5, or 7.5 against 8.5. 6.5 versus 7.5 should frequently make a difference. It seems this rule makes the game slightly more challenging by increasing the granularity in frequent scores to the level normally observed only under territory scoring. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
Your right. It depends on the komi, if it makes a difference. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik van der Werf Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 3:17 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring When White is the first player to pass than komi is changed from 6.5 to 7.5 . On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:02 PM, David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It should make almost no difference, since on odd sized boards with area counting the game result will be the same unless there is a seki with an odd number of shared liberties. This kind of seki is rare. I'd guess less than one in a hundred games ends with such a seki on the board. AGA rules also have the effect of changing the komi depending on which side makes the last pass. Is that right? Area scoring no neutral intersections odd board surface - odd komi for jigo (typically 5, 7 or 9). So, what you're saying applies for 5.5 against 6.5, or 7.5 against 8.5. 6.5 versus 7.5 should frequently make a difference. It seems this rule makes the game slightly more challenging by increasing the granularity in frequent scores to the level normally observed only under territory scoring. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
Semantics. If white passes first she has to give one more prisoner to black than if black passes first. This changes the score by one point relative to Japanese rules, which has the same effect as changing the komi by a point. Of course I'm aware that the komi is not actually changed. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Goetze Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:15 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring David Fotland wrote: AGA rules also have the effect of changing the komi depending on which side makes the last pass. No, they don't. AGA rules are area-scoring rules and the komi is fixed. (They also provide a method to determine the area-scoring result via territory counting, but that's irrelevant.) WMSG rules are different. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
David Fotland wrote: Semantics. If white passes first she has to give one more prisoner to black than if black passes first. This changes the score by one point relative to Japanese rules, which has the same effect as changing the komi by a point. Of course I'm aware that the komi is not actually changed. So you would also say that Chinese and New Zealand rules change the komi depending on who passes first? I think that's pretty silly... (Note that playing with AGA rules does not require the use of pass stones. It is perfectly valid to play with AGA rules and not use any pass stones.) WMSG rules, however, change the komi relative to other area-scoring rules. That's a fundamental difference. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring
No, I wouldn't say that :) Read what I wrote... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Goetze Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:05 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: WMSG - Scoring David Fotland wrote: Semantics. If white passes first she has to give one more prisoner to black than if black passes first. This changes the score by one point relative to Japanese rules, which has the same effect as changing the komi by a point. Of course I'm aware that the komi is not actually changed. So you would also say that Chinese and New Zealand rules change the komi depending on who passes first? I think that's pretty silly... (Note that playing with AGA rules does not require the use of pass stones. It is perfectly valid to play with AGA rules and not use any pass stones.) WMSG rules, however, change the komi relative to other area-scoring rules. That's a fundamental difference. Regards, Michael ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
