Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Steve Rigby]

On Jan 8, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote:


Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using
the digital tuners.


A few months back I saw a chart of the power used for the different
channels. In almost all cases the power on the HD channels was much 
less

than for the old analog channels. Perhaps when they drop analog, the
power on the digital channels will be increased?


  No.  Part of the reason for lesser range is to provide for protection 
of the area being 'serviced' by a given channel.  The inability of 
Washington area viewers to be able to see Baltimore stations is 
considered to be a plus, not a negative.


  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[mike]

Ginger and Maryann in HD?  Glorious.

Mike

On Jan 8, 2008 4:20 PM, John Duncan Yoyo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What there is HD Star Trek TOS.  Things that were done on actual film
> can be upgraded to HD.  HD Gilligans could happen.
>
> On Jan 8, 2008 6:01 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But it's not SD vs HD, it's analog vs digital.  Every single show is not
> > going to be suddenly HD, it will simply be broadcast in digital.  Sorry
> no
> > widescreen HD gilligan's island for you tom.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > On Jan 6, 2008 10:54 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > The answer avoids an important issue. The aspect ratio of SD vs. HD is
> > > different. This means that your already small SD screen will be made
> even
> > > smaller when the HD size picture is letterboxed to fit on your SD
> screen.
> > > I bet you won't like it.
> > >
> > > >DirecTV stated the following when I asked them:
> > > >
> > > >"Standard, non-high-definition DIRECTV satellite equipment will not
> be
> > > >obsolete when the broadcast industry converts from an analog to
> digital
> > > >format. Because DIRECTV equipment and broadcast centers are already
> > > >digital, we must convert the current analog programming signals to
> > > >digital signals before transmitting them to our satellites. We then
> beam
> > > >these digital signals to your DIRECTV receiver.
> > > >Standard DIRECTV receivers are designed to work for many years to
> come
> > > >to provide the same high-quality standard-definition programming that
> > > >you enjoy as a DIRECTV customer today. "
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> John Duncan Yoyo
> ---o)
>
>
> 
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>



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[John Duncan Yoyo]

What there is HD Star Trek TOS.  Things that were done on actual film
can be upgraded to HD.  HD Gilligans could happen.

On Jan 8, 2008 6:01 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But it's not SD vs HD, it's analog vs digital.  Every single show is not
> going to be suddenly HD, it will simply be broadcast in digital.  Sorry no
> widescreen HD gilligan's island for you tom.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2008 10:54 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The answer avoids an important issue. The aspect ratio of SD vs. HD is
> > different. This means that your already small SD screen will be made even
> > smaller when the HD size picture is letterboxed to fit on your SD screen.
> > I bet you won't like it.
> >
> > >DirecTV stated the following when I asked them:
> > >
> > >"Standard, non-high-definition DIRECTV satellite equipment will not be
> > >obsolete when the broadcast industry converts from an analog to digital
> > >format. Because DIRECTV equipment and broadcast centers are already
> > >digital, we must convert the current analog programming signals to
> > >digital signals before transmitting them to our satellites. We then beam
> > >these digital signals to your DIRECTV receiver.
> > >Standard DIRECTV receivers are designed to work for many years to come
> > >to provide the same high-quality standard-definition programming that
> > >you enjoy as a DIRECTV customer today. "
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 
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> 
>



-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Richard P.]

For comparison of signals when I was running satellite trucks, the 
analog signal power range was between 50 - 200 watts with it usually 
ending up around 75 (200 was during a hurricane). Last I remember, 
digital transmissions were in the 25 watt range. Signal bleed was a huge 
problem in both formats so I would have to concur with Tony; what you 
have now, transmission-wise, is it. They are cramming so many signals in 
the bandwidth that it doesn't take much to interfere. 5 years ago we 
weren't even allowed to put up 100% color bars due to analog interference.


Richard P.



Unlikely. Stations are licensed by the FCC for a specific power on a
specific frequency, and getting approval for more power is almost
unheard of since they'll always be stepping on someone else's toes.

They're spending small fortunes to buy new transmitters, and it seems
unlikely they'll buy one that only outputs a fraction of what they're
approved for, then buy another one next year. Sometimes stations can
improve coverage by leasing/building better transmitter antennas
(location, altitude, polarization, etc.).

More likely *receivers* will improve, digging more signal out of the
background noise. And people will learn to set up the picky antennas
better. i.e., pointing it right _here_ for this channel, and pointing
it right _here_ for another.



  

Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using
the digital tuners.
  

A few months back I saw a chart of the power used for the different
channels. In almost all cases the power on the HD channels was much less
than for the old analog channels. Perhaps when they drop analog, the
power on the digital channels will be increased?

In the days before cable and even now when cable does not carry all
digital channels there is a good reason for the station to make their
power as high as possible.



  




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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[mike]

But it's not SD vs HD, it's analog vs digital.  Every single show is not
going to be suddenly HD, it will simply be broadcast in digital.  Sorry no
widescreen HD gilligan's island for you tom.

Mike

On Jan 6, 2008 10:54 AM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The answer avoids an important issue. The aspect ratio of SD vs. HD is
> different. This means that your already small SD screen will be made even
> smaller when the HD size picture is letterboxed to fit on your SD screen.
> I bet you won't like it.
>
> >DirecTV stated the following when I asked them:
> >
> >"Standard, non-high-definition DIRECTV satellite equipment will not be
> >obsolete when the broadcast industry converts from an analog to digital
> >format. Because DIRECTV equipment and broadcast centers are already
> >digital, we must convert the current analog programming signals to
> >digital signals before transmitting them to our satellites. We then beam
> >these digital signals to your DIRECTV receiver.
> >Standard DIRECTV receivers are designed to work for many years to come
> >to provide the same high-quality standard-definition programming that
> >you enjoy as a DIRECTV customer today. "
>
>
>
>



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Tony B]

Unlikely. Stations are licensed by the FCC for a specific power on a
specific frequency, and getting approval for more power is almost
unheard of since they'll always be stepping on someone else's toes.

They're spending small fortunes to buy new transmitters, and it seems
unlikely they'll buy one that only outputs a fraction of what they're
approved for, then buy another one next year. Sometimes stations can
improve coverage by leasing/building better transmitter antennas
(location, altitude, polarization, etc.).

More likely *receivers* will improve, digging more signal out of the
background noise. And people will learn to set up the picky antennas
better. i.e., pointing it right _here_ for this channel, and pointing
it right _here_ for another.


On Jan 8, 2008 4:57 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using
> >the digital tuners.
>
> A few months back I saw a chart of the power used for the different
> channels. In almost all cases the power on the HD channels was much less
> than for the old analog channels. Perhaps when they drop analog, the
> power on the digital channels will be increased?
>
> In the days before cable and even now when cable does not carry all
> digital channels there is a good reason for the station to make their
> power as high as possible.



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Tom Piwowar]

>Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using 
>the digital tuners.

A few months back I saw a chart of the power used for the different 
channels. In almost all cases the power on the HD channels was much less 
than for the old analog channels. Perhaps when they drop analog, the 
power on the digital channels will be increased?

In the days before cable and even now when cable does not carry all 
digital channels there is a good reason for the station to make their 
power as high as possible.



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Roger D. Parish]

At 11:36 AM -0500 1/6/08, Stephen Brownfield wrote:


DirecTV stated the following when I asked them:

...
Standard DIRECTV receivers are designed to work for many years to 
come to provide the same high-quality standard-definition 
programming that you enjoy as a DIRECTV customer today. "


Unless, of course, you also get OTA (Over-The-Air) programming 
through your DirecTV receiver (it has a coax port for an external 
antenna). Not clear whether the DirecTV receiver also will tune the 
external signal (like a VCR can). I've never used it, as the reason 
we have DirecTV is we can't get OTA programming.


Probably not a problem for most users.
--
Roger
Lovettsville, VA



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Tom Piwowar]

The answer avoids an important issue. The aspect ratio of SD vs. HD is 
different. This means that your already small SD screen will be made even 
smaller when the HD size picture is letterboxed to fit on your SD screen. 
I bet you won't like it.

>DirecTV stated the following when I asked them:
>
>"Standard, non-high-definition DIRECTV satellite equipment will not be 
>obsolete when the broadcast industry converts from an analog to digital 
>format. Because DIRECTV equipment and broadcast centers are already 
>digital, we must convert the current analog programming signals to 
>digital signals before transmitting them to our satellites. We then beam 
>these digital signals to your DIRECTV receiver.
>Standard DIRECTV receivers are designed to work for many years to come 
>to provide the same high-quality standard-definition programming that 
>you enjoy as a DIRECTV customer today. "



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Stephen Brownfield]

DirecTV stated the following when I asked them:

"Standard, non-high-definition DIRECTV satellite equipment will not be 
obsolete when the broadcast industry converts from an analog to digital 
format. Because DIRECTV equipment and broadcast centers are already 
digital, we must convert the current analog programming signals to 
digital signals before transmitting them to our satellites. We then beam 
these digital signals to your DIRECTV receiver.
Standard DIRECTV receivers are designed to work for many years to come 
to provide the same high-quality standard-definition programming that 
you enjoy as a DIRECTV customer today. "


Steve


Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Only if Direct TV tells you, you need to.

Stewart


At 07:23 PM 1/2/2008, you wrote:
This may be moving off topic, but I've had some questions about DTV.  
I have DirecTV for 9 years, thus my dish and receiver are old.  My TV 
is about 4 years old. Will I have to change anything?


Steve


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[b_s-wilk]

All of our CRT TVs have analog tuners. Some of the flat TVs we looked at 
last year didn't even have digital tuners. Many didn't have tuners at 
all. The two we bought [LCD+plasma] have digital QAM tuners, but most we 
looked at didn't.


The technology is changing quickly and prices have come down, but I 
doubt that most people own TVs with digital tuners if they own CRTs or 
bought flat TVs more than 2 years ago.


I expect that the deadline will pass with no changes--perhaps a 
postponement. Otherwise there will be a huge outcry, and demands for 
free cable/FIOS service to replace the local broadcasts that have until 
recently been preserved as part of the public commons -- until 
corporations weaseled their way into our government and changed it for 
themselves instead of for we, the people. I demand a free antenna so I 
can get the same broadcasts that I've always received from broadcast TV 
stations. Digital TV is a huge financial windfall for manufacturers in 
the long run, and a big pain in the wallet for the rest of us. Analog TV 
uses a very small part of the radio spectrum--considerably less than 
radio stations.


The radio spectrum is not finite, only by random choice of government. 
Did you know that there are FM stations that broadcast between 70.0 and 
87.9 FM? My radio picks them up. Did you know that in other countries 
they use smaller increments between stations than here in the US so they 
have many more radio stations? Digital threatens to cut off existing 
radio and replace it with [what kind of junk]...? We have enough 
problems with the government trying to block short wave radio. So far 
they haven't succeeded in trashing the best emergency radio system in 
existence, but I don't trust them to do anything for us since we don't 
have the big  to force changes for us instead of big biz.




> The change from analog to digital definitely DOES affect those of us who
> have digital TVs. We have analog service on all of our televisions--two
> are also digital.


Actually, it's highly unlikely your TVs have analog tuners in them.
They are digital. But what you mean is they are not ATSC.




> Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using
> the digital tuners.



True. And worse, it's an "on or off" proposition. Gone are the old
days when you could squint at a distant TV station obscured by static.
With DTV, at a certain point, the picture just cuts off.




> Who is supposed to benefit from this change? I doubt it's consumers.
> This is yet another bad idea pushed through corporate government by
> industry lobbyists without consideration for consumers.


Alas, I disagree. The radio spectrum has always been finite. The old
NTSC ("analog") broadcasts use an enormous amount of this limited
space to transmit the same information. Really, this transition should
have taken place 10 years ago.




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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[John Duncan Yoyo]

You can check what they theoretically expect you to be able to get
with an antenna at .  This takes your
address and generates a list of receivable stations and a map of the
direction each of those stations lay from your location.

I know from experience I can now easily receive the 'analog' signals
from Baltimore with a pair of rabbit ears in Fairfax county VA.  They
don't expect that I could get the Digital signals.

On Jan 2, 2008 10:55 PM, b_s-wilk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >
>  > Since this *is* a technical list, let's not get things confused. It's
>  > not the television *receivers* that are changing to digital, it's the
>  > *transmitters*. That's why people with cable or satellite are
>  > unaffected by the changeover.
>  >
>  > Coinciding with the DTV *transmitter* changeover is a new television
>  > broadcast standard. The one your old tv uses is NTSC which has been
>  > around since 1940. The new standard is ATSC which will officially be
>  > inaugurated February 17, 2009, currently the day the last of the old
>  > analog NTSC *transmitters* is to be turned off in the US. But actually
>  > most large market stations are already broadcasting ATSC.
>
>
> The change from analog to digital definitely DOES affect those of us who
> have digital TVs. We have analog service on all of our televisions--two
> are also digital. We are about 50 mile from the closest transmitters and
> get fair to good analog reception with rabbit ears.
>
> Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using
> the digital tuners. That means we will have to pay several hundred
> dollars to get an antenna that might be powerful enough to pull in a
> digital broadcast. Otherwise we'll be forced to watch no local channels
> on two of our TVs or pay big bucks for cable, FIOS or satellite on those
> TVs that today get decent analog reception.
>
> Will the broadcast channels boost their transmission so that we can get
> the same service we had with analog? I won't hold my breath waiting.
>
> Who is supposed to benefit from this change? I doubt it's consumers.
> This is yet another bad idea pushed through corporate government by
> industry lobbyists without consideration for consumers.
>
>
> Betty
>
>
>
> 
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> 
>



-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Tony B]

> The change from analog to digital definitely DOES affect those of us who
> have digital TVs. We have analog service on all of our televisions--two
> are also digital.

Actually, it's highly unlikely your TVs have analog tuners in them.
They are digital. But what you mean is they are not ATSC.



> Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using
> the digital tuners.


True. And worse, it's an "on or off" proposition. Gone are the old
days when you could squint at a distant TV station obscured by static.
With DTV, at a certain point, the picture just cuts off.



> Who is supposed to benefit from this change? I doubt it's consumers.
> This is yet another bad idea pushed through corporate government by
> industry lobbyists without consideration for consumers.

Alas, I disagree. The radio spectrum has always been finite. The old
NTSC ("analog") broadcasts use an enormous amount of this limited
space to transmit the same information. Really, this transition should
have taken place 10 years ago.



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[b_s-wilk]

>
> Since this *is* a technical list, let's not get things confused. It's
> not the television *receivers* that are changing to digital, it's the
> *transmitters*. That's why people with cable or satellite are
> unaffected by the changeover.
>
> Coinciding with the DTV *transmitter* changeover is a new television
> broadcast standard. The one your old tv uses is NTSC which has been
> around since 1940. The new standard is ATSC which will officially be
> inaugurated February 17, 2009, currently the day the last of the old
> analog NTSC *transmitters* is to be turned off in the US. But actually
> most large market stations are already broadcasting ATSC.


The change from analog to digital definitely DOES affect those of us who 
have digital TVs. We have analog service on all of our televisions--two 
are also digital. We are about 50 mile from the closest transmitters and 
get fair to good analog reception with rabbit ears.


Digital TV doesn't carry as far as analog. We get ZERO channels using 
the digital tuners. That means we will have to pay several hundred 
dollars to get an antenna that might be powerful enough to pull in a 
digital broadcast. Otherwise we'll be forced to watch no local channels 
on two of our TVs or pay big bucks for cable, FIOS or satellite on those 
TVs that today get decent analog reception.


Will the broadcast channels boost their transmission so that we can get 
the same service we had with analog? I won't hold my breath waiting.


Who is supposed to benefit from this change? I doubt it's consumers. 
This is yet another bad idea pushed through corporate government by 
industry lobbyists without consideration for consumers.



Betty



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Only if Direct TV tells you, you need to.

Stewart


At 07:23 PM 1/2/2008, you wrote:
This may be moving off topic, but I've had some questions about 
DTV.  I have DirecTV for 9 years, thus my dish and receiver are 
old.  My TV is about 4 years old. Will I have to change anything?


Steve


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace
Ozark, AL  SL 82



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV future

[Stephen Brownfield]

This may be moving off topic, but I've had some questions about DTV.  I 
have DirecTV for 9 years, thus my dish and receiver are old.  My TV is 
about 4 years old. Will I have to change anything?


Steve

Tony B wrote:

Since this *is* a technical list, let's not get things confused. It's
not the television *receivers* that are changing to digital, it's the
*transmitters*. That's why people with cable or satellite are
unaffected by the changeover.

Coinciding with the DTV *transmitter* changeover is a new television
broadcast standard. The one your old tv uses is NTSC which has been
around since 1940. The new standard is ATSC which will officially be
inaugurated February 17, 2009, currently the day the last of the old
analog NTSC *transmitters* is to be turned off in the US. But actually
most large market stations are already broadcasting ATSC.

As of last month when I last checked there are still many NTSC-only
tuners on the shelf at Walmart (TVs, VCRs, DVD recorders). By law they
must now carry a notice that they will not receive ATSC broadcasts.

In practical terms, "DTV" currently equates to "ATSC". However, most
circuits in televisions have been digital for years.

Oh, and to answer your specific question, no, none of the formats in
ATSC include any kind of audio locking.  And I actually read the TV
trade mags, and rest assured the sync issues are driving broadcasters
batty right now.

I wouldn't replace a working TV right now just for the heck of it. If
it's still running 2/09, and if congress doesn't postpone the
changeover yet again, just get one of the converter boxes. OTOH If I
was shopping today I wouldn't buy the old stock that lacks ATSC
("DTV") tuners.


On Jan 2, 2008 5:20 PM, Constance Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Does anyone know if manufacturers are doing anything to solve the synch
problem in the next generations of TV's?  Or is this a bug that's
inherent in the system, and for which there is no practical bugfix?

We have an analog TV that's on its last legs, and we're planning to
replace it with digital.  Is there any point in waiting until the
technology gets better?





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[CGUYS] DTV future

[Tony B]

Since this *is* a technical list, let's not get things confused. It's
not the television *receivers* that are changing to digital, it's the
*transmitters*. That's why people with cable or satellite are
unaffected by the changeover.

Coinciding with the DTV *transmitter* changeover is a new television
broadcast standard. The one your old tv uses is NTSC which has been
around since 1940. The new standard is ATSC which will officially be
inaugurated February 17, 2009, currently the day the last of the old
analog NTSC *transmitters* is to be turned off in the US. But actually
most large market stations are already broadcasting ATSC.

As of last month when I last checked there are still many NTSC-only
tuners on the shelf at Walmart (TVs, VCRs, DVD recorders). By law they
must now carry a notice that they will not receive ATSC broadcasts.

In practical terms, "DTV" currently equates to "ATSC". However, most
circuits in televisions have been digital for years.

Oh, and to answer your specific question, no, none of the formats in
ATSC include any kind of audio locking.  And I actually read the TV
trade mags, and rest assured the sync issues are driving broadcasters
batty right now.

I wouldn't replace a working TV right now just for the heck of it. If
it's still running 2/09, and if congress doesn't postpone the
changeover yet again, just get one of the converter boxes. OTOH If I
was shopping today I wouldn't buy the old stock that lacks ATSC
("DTV") tuners.


On Jan 2, 2008 5:20 PM, Constance Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone know if manufacturers are doing anything to solve the synch
> problem in the next generations of TV's?  Or is this a bug that's
> inherent in the system, and for which there is no practical bugfix?
>
> We have an analog TV that's on its last legs, and we're planning to
> replace it with digital.  Is there any point in waiting until the
> technology gets better?



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