Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
On Jul 21, 2008, at 10:33 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: I wasn't arguing that if you offered someone a free Mac but said they could never use Windows again, that they would switch immediately. My point was that while there are people afraid to switch or just don't have the time to learn something new, I have not found anyone in a long time who would not like to have a Mac. They then give the kinds of reasons you did for not switching. That even applies to me. My excuse is that I am too cheap to buy a new computer. I believe that you and I are in agreement with each other on the points we are making. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Steve Rigby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jul 18, 2008, at 3:25 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: > > I have heard of people in the 80s and 90s not sure of using a Mac, but >> have >> not run across anyone who wouldn't be willing to use a Mac in years. >> > > I am assumed that you are referring to the 1980's and 1990's as opposed to > persons in their 80s and 90s. > > I often run into folks who have only used Windows systems and would NEVER > switch to anything else voluntarily. After a bit of probing, I will usually > discover that their reasoning is one of pure familiarity, either because > Windows is all they have ever used and are "afraid" to change, or they have > big investments in Windows software, or the most common mantra, "That's what > everyone else uses." Steve, good point. I agree that getting someone to switch from one thing to another is generally difficult. That's where Microsoft makes their money. Microsoft Office is a good example - I run into businesses that say they don't like Office that much, but they have to have it for compatibility with clients, partners, etc. I wasn't arguing that if you offered someone a free Mac but said they could never use Windows again, that they would switch immediately. My point was that while there are people afraid to switch or just don't have the time to learn something new, I have not found anyone in a long time who would not like to have a Mac. They then give the kinds of reasons you did for not switching. That even applies to me. My excuse is that I am too cheap to buy a new computer. So I just use the laptop that work supplies me. Which comes with Windows, naturally. But I do boot into Linux a lot. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
On Jul 18, 2008, at 3:25 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: I have heard of people in the 80s and 90s not sure of using a Mac, but have not run across anyone who wouldn't be willing to use a Mac in years. I am assumed that you are referring to the 1980's and 1990's as opposed to persons in their 80s and 90s. I often run into folks who have only used Windows systems and would NEVER switch to anything else voluntarily. After a bit of probing, I will usually discover that their reasoning is one of pure familiarity, either because Windows is all they have ever used and are "afraid" to change, or they have big investments in Windows software, or the most common mantra, "That's what everyone else uses." Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
> WFBs get so emotional as Microsoft slips into irrelevance. They would > play ostrich while significant changes are occurring in the computer > industry. I think it is much more useful to pay attention. This is all > so fascinating. One must argue with you to be paying attention? Oh my. This level of massive rationalization has never been observed in nature before. Think different Thomas; think for yourself, not at the whim of the Apple HypeMachine. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
>Actually, the most productive people are those who don't get sucked into >another one of Tom's or John's silly, adolescent pissing matches, yet again. WFBs get so emotional as Microsoft slips into irrelevance. They would play ostrich while significant changes are occurring in the computer industry. I think it is much more useful to pay attention. This is all so fascinating. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
> You will also see lots of Macs used by scientists. If you watch science > programs like Nova or the occasional/rare news report about something > scientific you will commonly see that the person who just made a > scientific breakthrough did it with a Mac. Second choice is Xnix. > > As I said before, people who get to choose their own computers to > perform > work care about will overwhelmingly choose Macs. People who use Macs > outperform those who use Windows. And in the most successful businesses, you will see Windows machines overwhelmingly. What does that prove? Right. Nothing. Actually, the most productive people are those who don't get sucked into another one of Tom's or John's silly, adolescent pissing matches, yet again. FORD! CHEVY! Lather. Rinse. Repeat. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
As you say, MS customers would not be be so smart. Tom says: MS plays on their insecurity by telling them that they have to be smart to use Xnix. (Obviously a MS customer would not be so smart.) They point to all the flavors of Xnix and make it sound like every one is wildly different. "Who will support you?" they cry. MS besotted IT managers are easily fooled. The POS computers you see are supplied to the merchants by system integrators. While the merchants are the ones who ultimately pay for the computers, they are not the ones making the selection. The selection of the computer included in the POS system is made by the system integrator. The system is sold on the capabilities of the system and the price. The specific hardware is probably never mentioned. The system integrator's motivation is to purchace the absolute cheapest POS, since they are purchasing many systems even a small difference in price will amount to a considerable sum. It is unlikely that the quality of the hardware provided will have much influence on the price they can charge for the system. Providing Macs would go against the interests of the system integrator. System integrators also have a second motivation: to sell support services. To this end they have every motivation to provide a system that will require such services. They want a computer that will do the job, but not do it too well. Providing Macs would go against the interests of the system integrator. On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >The real interesting bit out of this is Apple's use of windows ce as their > >POSgosh that's funny isn't it? > > Not really. There is no alternative PDA POS. The only thing that is funny > is your expectation that they would do something stupid. > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
>The real interesting bit out of this is Apple's use of windows ce as their >POSgosh that's funny isn't it? Not really. There is no alternative PDA POS. The only thing that is funny is your expectation that they would do something stupid. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Where exactly did I cast these aspersions? And I never brought up Trolls for that matter either. I don't care what tool works best for you. I can't figure out why the few mac users here care so much when something other then macs work well for other people. I just get tired of baseless broad sweeping statements that are backed up with 'cause I said so' or 'i'm not looking it up for you.' The real irony of this entire thread...talking about how successful companies steer from MS to Apple...how it seems a near rule to some mac users that the use of Apple systems is somehow a leading indicator of success. Google brought up by Tom as an example..scientist...analysts. The real interesting bit out of this is Apple's use of windows ce as their POSgosh that's funny isn't it? Mike On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >FUD doesn't work. If your work bright and shiny on a mac good for you. > Others > >have just as much productivity on windows or linux or solaris...whatever > tool > >that works for them. > > The point was made the Xnix would be a far better platform for POS than > either Mac or Windows. To which I heartily agreed. Yet you persist > adoring Windows and casting aspersions on anyone who is not a True > Believer. Who is the troll? > > No one said Windows does not work. It was noted that people who use > computers as essential tools: creatives, analysts, scientists, etc., > gravitate toward Macs. It was also noted that on a > price-perfornamce-reliability basis Xnix had it all over Windows. > > Other than stuff from MS's (now abandoned) anti-Xnix FUD campaign, can > you cite any evidence to contradict this? > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
>FUD doesn't work. If your work bright and shiny on a mac good for you. Others >have just as much productivity on windows or linux or solaris...whatever tool >that works for them. The point was made the Xnix would be a far better platform for POS than either Mac or Windows. To which I heartily agreed. Yet you persist adoring Windows and casting aspersions on anyone who is not a True Believer. Who is the troll? No one said Windows does not work. It was noted that people who use computers as essential tools: creatives, analysts, scientists, etc., gravitate toward Macs. It was also noted that on a price-perfornamce-reliability basis Xnix had it all over Windows. Other than stuff from MS's (now abandoned) anti-Xnix FUD campaign, can you cite any evidence to contradict this? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
I confess...the *real* reason I don't have a mac at home isn't because they cost more or that I can do just as much without any trouble on my pc. It's because I watched Seinfeld and feared if I owned a mac my life would be about nothing. On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Well that's proof. Tv. lol. > > Mike thinks those Macs you see on Nova are CGIs. > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
>Well that's proof. Tv. lol. Mike thinks those Macs you see on Nova are CGIs. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
I'd be better at this if I was more defensive about the computer I use. Keep on keepin on, John. Mike On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:28 PM, John DeCarlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mike, > > Tony is right. I should ignore your trolling. You have no fact, not even > rumors or anecdotes, to back you up. Just another attempt to make the 99% > of the reasonable people on here respond to your trolling. > > I should have known better. > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 9:17 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Or for my sake apparently, feeding them. > > > > Mike > > > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Tony B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > You know you're just feeding the trolls, don't you? A simple notice to > > > newbies that there is a very small group of rabid Mac fans on here that > > > often post just to rile people up would suffice. > > > > -- > John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Mike, Tony is right. I should ignore your trolling. You have no fact, not even rumors or anecdotes, to back you up. Just another attempt to make the 99% of the reasonable people on here respond to your trolling. I should have known better. On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 9:17 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Or for my sake apparently, feeding them. > > Mike > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Tony B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You know you're just feeding the trolls, don't you? A simple notice to > > newbies that there is a very small group of rabid Mac fans on here that > > often post just to rile people up would suffice. > -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Or for my sake apparently, feeding them. Mike On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Tony B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You know you're just feeding the trolls, don't you? A simple notice to > newbies that there is a very small group of rabid Mac fans on here that > often post just to rile people up would suffice. > > I suppose it's a good thing this list doesn't have rules against trolls. > Where else would we get some of our best laughs? > > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:37 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I get tired of FUD of various types being spread like someone is driving > a > > john deere around the listserv. And then when challanged all we get is > go > > find it yourself it's obviously right. > > > > > > > People who use Macs > > > > > outperform those who use Windows. > > > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
You know you're just feeding the trolls, don't you? A simple notice to newbies that there is a very small group of rabid Mac fans on here that often post just to rile people up would suffice. I suppose it's a good thing this list doesn't have rules against trolls. Where else would we get some of our best laughs? On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:37 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I get tired of FUD of various types being spread like someone is driving a > john deere around the listserv. And then when challanged all we get is go > find it yourself it's obviously right. > > > > > People who use Macs > > > > outperform those who use Windows. > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
I get tired of FUD of various types being spread like someone is driving a john deere around the listserv. And then when challanged all we get is go find it yourself it's obviously right. I don't count just anecdotal evidence of bloggers as reputable studies...three result pages of google search after typing 'macs more productive then windows' and that's all I get. No studies. To be honest I have no idea how they would even do such a study. It's like asking if a blue car is faster then a green car. Depends on the driver. The only actual article that came up in those three pages was one funded by Apple which said, wait for it...Apple users are more productive then windows users. Wow. It must be true. One of my good friends delved deep into slackware linux about 7 years ago, now she's an ace on linux, can run circles around her friends on windows and mac using the CLI. I have another who is an IT admin who I can't even keep up with what windows he has open on his 2003 server let alone keep up with what he's doing. Another who works at a community college on a mac and uses quicksilver as if he lives it...he runs around most other mac users as far as productivity. Computers are tools. I have no attachment either way to any OS, only prefer using what is inexpensive and does what I need, when I need it. I use macs, windows...a little linux but not much. Whatever works. FUD doesn't work. If your work bright and shiny on a mac good for you. Others have just as much productivity on windows or linux or solaris...whatever tool that works for them. Mike On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM, John DeCarlo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mike, > > Why do you care where he gets it? It isn't like there are any reputable > studies that show anything else. > > You certainly can't dispute the findings. You can find hundreds of > examples > with a simple Google search. > > Trying to find counter-examples is difficult - you have to find something > funded by Microsoft or a very niche market. > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 4:41 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Where do you get this stuff? > > > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > People who use Macs > > > outperform those who use Windows. > > > > > -- > John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Well that's proof. Tv. lol. Mike On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Start by watching some science programs on TV. > There are other types of real life shows where you'll see that creative > people often have a Mac. > > > mike wrote: > >> Where do you get this stuff? >> >> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> As I said before, people who get to choose their own computers to perform >>> work care about will overwhelmingly choose Macs. People who use Macs >>> outperform those who use Windows. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Start by watching some science programs on TV. There are other types of real life shows where you'll see that creative people often have a Mac. mike wrote: Where do you get this stuff? On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As I said before, people who get to choose their own computers to perform work care about will overwhelmingly choose Macs. People who use Macs outperform those who use Windows. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Mike, Why do you care where he gets it? It isn't like there are any reputable studies that show anything else. You certainly can't dispute the findings. You can find hundreds of examples with a simple Google search. Trying to find counter-examples is difficult - you have to find something funded by Microsoft or a very niche market. On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 4:41 PM, mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Where do you get this stuff? > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > People who use Macs > > outperform those who use Windows. > -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Probably need to drink the Steve Jobs koolaid too but I'm not really going there. Mike On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Where do you get this stuff? > > You need to get out more. > Expand your reading beyond Microsoft Security Bulletins. > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
>Where do you get this stuff? You need to get out more. Expand your reading beyond Microsoft Security Bulletins. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Where do you get this stuff? On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > As I said before, people who get to choose their own computers to perform > work care about will overwhelmingly choose Macs. People who use Macs > outperform those who use Windows. > > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
> I guess that Macs have always been seen as appealing to folks of a >countercultural nature or to those who would be "different," as the >Mac ads say. I also think that is a big reason that many steer clear >of Macs. You will also see lots of Macs used by scientists. If you watch science programs like Nova or the occasional/rare news report about something scientific you will commonly see that the person who just made a scientific breakthrough did it with a Mac. Second choice is Xnix. As I said before, people who get to choose their own computers to perform work care about will overwhelmingly choose Macs. People who use Macs outperform those who use Windows. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
> I also think that is a big reason that many steer clear > of Macs. Only if they've never been on this list. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
Interestingly, I see a lot of businesses that have standardized on Windows, often one hardware vendor like Dell. But in all those businesses, including my own company, there are a significant number of Mac users. They figure out some way around the general policy. And when I go to a business meeting, I am almost always the only one using Linux on my corporate Dell, but there tend to be about 20% Macs. But then I work in a technology area where a lot of us care about the technology we use on our laptop computers. And some of us don't want to worry about the computer, just get the work done - many of them use Macs, too. I have heard of people in the 80s and 90s not sure of using a Mac, but have not run across anyone who wouldn't be willing to use a Mac in years. On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Steve Rigby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I guess that Macs have always been seen as appealing to folks of a > countercultural nature or to those who would be "different," as the Mac ads > say. I also think that is a big reason that many steer clear of Macs. > -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
The reason they have the lions share in this realm is that they were the first and the best in this area. They also had the lions share of publishing jobs. I remember back when every newspaper used nothing but Mac's to layout and set their paper. Even the small weekly my wife worked for 10 years ago used nothing but Mac's for this job. It was not until Win95 that MS came even close to Mac's in ease of use and graphics interface for their needs. Even today papers and publishing houses still use a preponderance of Mac's for their needs as it fits and works the way they want. But I still remember my wife calling me for help when she had problems with her Mac a work. They regularly had Font problems, and problems with a custom made piece of software. Stewart At 11:37 AM 7/18/2008, you wrote: One general area of the business world where one can find many Macintosh machines is in the arena of the arts. I am speaking of the creative arts, to include the world of graphic artists and designers as well as movies and digital graphics. Music as well. Also, I have noticed that one can see a goodly percentage of Macintosh machines depicted in use in movies, both in theatrical release as well as on television. I do not know of that is purely the result of product placement efforts on the part of Apple Corp., or if the many inclusions of a Macintosh computer as a prop are simply often done because that was what was on hand to use. I guess that Macs have always been seen as appealing to folks of a countercultural nature or to those who would be "different," as the Mac ads say. I also think that is a big reason that many steer clear of Macs. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Macs in business...take 2
One general area of the business world where one can find many Macintosh machines is in the arena of the arts. I am speaking of the creative arts, to include the world of graphic artists and designers as well as movies and digital graphics. Music as well. Also, I have noticed that one can see a goodly percentage of Macintosh machines depicted in use in movies, both in theatrical release as well as on television. I do not know of that is purely the result of product placement efforts on the part of Apple Corp., or if the many inclusions of a Macintosh computer as a prop are simply often done because that was what was on hand to use. I guess that Macs have always been seen as appealing to folks of a countercultural nature or to those who would be "different," as the Mac ads say. I also think that is a big reason that many steer clear of Macs. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
