[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Maia McCormick via Contra Callers]

Er, typo, first paragraph should read “cis women”.

--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:59 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> You’re welcome to have your preferences! I don’t understand how giving
> folks of any gender the freedom to dance with whomever they want, on
> whichever side of the swing they want, prevents you from only asking
> (people you perceive to be) cos women to dance.
>
> The goal of “encouraging everyone to partner with who they want to and
> dance on the side they want to” seems an unambiguous good to me! Or am I
> misunderstanding?
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:14 PM Chris Lahey via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> The point is that if you announce it loudly, then you're making it gender
>> free in name only. If larks is just code for gents, then people who want to
>> dance a role that doesn't match their gender expression or identity (or who
>> are non-binary for that matter) will be more uncomfortable than if the
>> dance is truly gender free. You announce it quietly not because it's
>> shameful to have a preference, but because it's shaming the people who
>> don't match if you announce it loudly.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:56 PM Colin Hume via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
>>> > Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
>>> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
>>> > particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a
>>> different preference)?
>>>
>>> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
>>> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
>>> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
>>> even though she may generally have a different
>>> preference.
>>>
>>> Colin Hume
>>>
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>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Maia McCormick via Contra Callers]

You’re welcome to have your preferences! I don’t understand how giving
folks of any gender the freedom to dance with whomever they want, on
whichever side of the swing they want, prevents you from only asking
(people you perceive to be) cos women to dance.

The goal of “encouraging everyone to partner with who they want to and
dance on the side they want to” seems an unambiguous good to me! Or am I
misunderstanding?

Cheers,
Maia

--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:14 PM Chris Lahey via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> The point is that if you announce it loudly, then you're making it gender
> free in name only. If larks is just code for gents, then people who want to
> dance a role that doesn't match their gender expression or identity (or who
> are non-binary for that matter) will be more uncomfortable than if the
> dance is truly gender free. You announce it quietly not because it's
> shameful to have a preference, but because it's shaming the people who
> don't match if you announce it loudly.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:56 PM Colin Hume via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
>> > Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
>> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
>> > particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a
>> different preference)?
>>
>> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
>> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
>> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
>> even though she may generally have a different
>> preference.
>>
>> Colin Hume
>>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers]

I don't know whether I was that someone.  If it was, what I talked about, if 
you have a large enough group to do it (say, 10 or more, which I rarely do), is 
to have them all circle up [which I always do as part of the implicit 
dancing-to-the-phrase, things-take-standard-numbers-of-steps, early success 
because they're responding to a call that means what they think it does 
portion), and after we've done all that, I squish the circle into a longways 
set and take hands four from the top.  If they came with someobdy that person 
is probably in another couple now (unless they're at the top or bottom).  "As 
you face the other couple, one of you is on the left - you're dancing as a 
lark; the other is on the right - you're  dancing as a robin.)

You could also circle up, pick someone to start, and have them count off around 
the ring "robin, lark, robin, lark".

In principle this means roles are arbitrarily assigned.  In practice these new 
partners might negotiate. I try not to notice.

-- Alan


From: Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers 
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2024 8:24 PM
To: contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

Sometime within the past 3 years or so someone posted an excellent procedure in 
this forum, which I did not copy, and could not find a year or so later when I 
tried.  maybe someone can find it.
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Chris Lahey via Contra Callers]

The point is that if you announce it loudly, then you're making it gender
free in name only. If larks is just code for gents, then people who want to
dance a role that doesn't match their gender expression or identity (or who
are non-binary for that matter) will be more uncomfortable than if the
dance is truly gender free. You announce it quietly not because it's
shameful to have a preference, but because it's shaming the people who
don't match if you announce it loudly.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:56 PM Colin Hume via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
> > Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
> > particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a
> different preference)?
>
> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
> even though she may generally have a different
> preference.
>
> Colin Hume
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Colin Hume via Contra Callers]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
> Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the 
> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
> particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a 
> different preference)?

I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken Panton 
- I'm a man and I certainly prefer 
dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons even 
though she may generally have a different 
preference.

Colin Hume

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[Callers] Re: Chestnuts

[John Sweeney via Contra Callers]

HI Ken,
You said, "I'm intrigued and appreciative also when I see 
well-represented period social dancing in movies and TV shows. The specific 
example in mind is in Pride and Prejudice (Keira Knightley iteration) which 
actually seemed to spend enough time in a wide frame to actually discern the 
entire dance."

Sadly, they didn't dance anything like that in that period.

The dances shown in the movies are generally from a hundred years 
earlier - it's like showing people doing the Charleston at a disco!

Also the stepping in the figures was three chassees, jete, assemble (in 
modern terms something like three polka steps and a jump). "Sir Thomas, having 
seen her walk rather than dance down the shortening set, breathless, and with 
her hand at her side, gave his orders for her sitting down entirely."

If you would like to know what they really danced in that period have a 
look at https://www.kickery.com/2009/11/what-did-jane-austen-dance.html

Money Musk would be a suitable dance!

Happy dancing,
   John 

John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   

-Original Message-
From: Ken Panton via Contra Callers  
Sent: 11 March 2024 18:05
To: contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Re: Chestnuts

John Sweeney wrote:
> Hi Ken,
> 
>   The oldest dance I do is Trenchmore – goes back to at 
> least 1551.  See http://contrafusion.co.uk/Dances/Trenchmore.html
> 
>  
> 

Thanks. John, for those references.

I'm untrigued and appreciative also when I see well-represented period social 
dancing in movies and TV shows. The specific example in mind is in Pride and 
Prejudice (Keira Knightley iteration) which actually seemed to spend enough 
time in a wide frame to actually discern the entire dance.

Maybe there are other similar examples.

Cheers

Ken Panton
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[Callers] Re: Chestnuts

[Ken Panton via Contra Callers]

John Sweeney wrote:
> Hi Ken,
> 
>   The oldest dance I do is Trenchmore – goes back to at least 
> 1551.  See
> http://contrafusion.co.uk/Dances/Trenchmore.html
> 
>  
> 

Thanks. John, for those references.

I'm untrigued and appreciative also when I see well-represented period social 
dancing in movies and TV shows. The specific example in mind is in Pride and 
Prejudice (Keira Knightley iteration) which actually seemed to spend enough 
time in a wide frame to actually discern the entire dance.

Maybe there are other similar examples.

Cheers

Ken Panton
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[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?

[Don Veino via Contra Callers]

FWIW, in my calling and dancing experience, the ratio of people actually
dancing to those on the sidelines is better at the "gender free" events
than the "traditional" ones.

Of course this makes sense if you consider the situation in terms of
possible dance slots to be filled.

At the series I help run (Concord MA Scout House, Monday Contras), we used
to get complaints (mainly from men but not always) about an "imbalance" in
the hall and folks sitting out as they "couldn't find a partner". We
shifted to Larks/Robins several years ago and that "balance" issue has
never been raised since. Many folks do line up in a "traditional" couple -
however, as 50+% of the dance pattern is done with neighbors and you're on
average swinging your chosen partner for only 15% of the time...

-Don
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[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?

[Tanya Merchant via Contra Callers]

Hi Ken and all,
I want to reiterate that the gender free dances I’ve attended and called
aren’t interested in shaming folks for their experience in or preference
for gendered dance roles, but we do want to maintain a space that doesn’t
gender dance roles either explicitly or implicitly.

During the early days of mainstreaming this practice, my dance community
struggled with this. Part of our process of switching to non-gendered bird
terms was to have folks asking “which one’s the man?” and similar
questions.  Those in-transition dances often succeeded in having
non-gendered role terms, but the dance roles were still largely
gender-normed and featured a lot of mixed gender couples in the roles
associated with their previously gendered role names.

Now that my communities have made the transition, my experience is a lot
like what Kat K describes — the vibe is different and everyone really can
and does dance with everyone.  It’s joyful and fun.

My home dance in Santa Cruz, CA,  usually has more people and more young
attendees than it did before the pandemic (when it was still in transition
between gendered and non-gendered practices). And I still dance with plenty
of men as partners and neighbors, but they might be on the right or left.
The openness to wider possibilities is exciting and fun.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes,

Tanya H. Merchant


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 08:51 Ken Panton via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Katherine Kitching wrote:
> > Hi Ken!
> >
> > Changing the subject line as others suggested.
> >
> > I would say there is a difference between telling someone "quietly" and
> telling
> > someone "furtively" :)
> >
> > We do the former and not the latter!
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for the additional information, Kat.
>
> I'll have to gain more experience in non-gendered contra; COVID has
> hampered that, significantly.
>
> Ken Panton
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[Callers] Chestnuts

[John Sweeney via Contra Callers]

Hi Ken,

  The oldest dance I do is Trenchmore – goes back to at least 1551. 
 See http://contrafusion.co.uk/Dances/Trenchmore.html

 

  Great if your dancers like to Strip the Willow.

 

  Horse’s Branle (1589) is great fun too - 
https://www.webfeet.org/eceilidh/dances/horses-branle.html

 

  I can call these type of dances for nearly any group in England 
as we don’t have the genre divides that you do in America.

 

  When I have called in the USA I have often thrown in different 
formations and the dancers seem to have enjoyed it. It all depends on what your 
dancers expect and how much they are prepared to experiment.  There are lots of 
great contra dance style dances in other formations – see 
http://contrafusion.co.uk/Formations.html

 

  The 17th and 18th century English dances (e.g. Playford and those 
who followed) were also known as contra dances and even occasionally had First 
Couples Improper, e.g. The King of Poland (1698): “First Man on his Woman’s 
fide” (side).

 

  You may well be able to find some early dances that would go down 
well with a contra crowd.  Just change some of the Turns into Swings – yes they 
did Swings in those days.  From the pre-1650 Lovelace Manuscript: “Trenchmore: 
every man shall turne his mayde as long as he please, on way, and then backe 
agayine, the other way; then all men and woemen turne round as before as fast 
as they can” – sounds like a Swing to me!

 

  The earliest dances in Cracking Chestnuts are Money Musk (1785) 
and The Young Widow (1788) – George Washington’s time!

 

Happy dancing,

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   
   

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[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?

[Alan J Rosenthal via Contra Callers]

When people ask me which of Larks and Robins is "the man", I answer
as follows:  "Lark" is the role which is traditionally called "man".
You're welcome to dance whichever role you like, and many people have
a role preference.

I think it's important to say that the role is traditionally *called*
"man", not to say "is traditionally danced by a man".  People have always
danced on both sides, for a variety of obvious reasons.  I'm not going
to belabour this point when talking to someone like the above, but I do
choose my words carefully.

I don't think it's appropriate for someone to insist that they dance a
particular role because of their gender (etc), but I do think it's fine
for someone to have a role preference, and such a role preference is often
borne of experience, and many people's experience includes being pushed
into a particular role because of their gender or apparent gender, and
that's their dance identity now, and if they want to keep it I think
that's fine, I just think that it should not have a gendered name.
So I'm quite happy to help them to translate.

>Most of our dancers have no clue there used to be an association: I love
>that.

I do too, and I like to think that any such person overhearing an exchange
like the above would think "wow, that's weird that someone thinks that
whether you're dancing Robin or Lark depends on your gender, how silly."
And doesn't afterwards remember which role had which alleged gender
association.

regards,
ajr, dancing in and near Toronto, Canada
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[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?

[Ken Panton via Contra Callers]

Katherine Kitching wrote:
> Hi Ken!
> 
> Changing the subject line as others suggested.
> 
> I would say there is a difference between telling someone "quietly" and 
> telling
> someone "furtively" :)
> 
> We do the former and not the latter!
> 
>

Thanks for the additional information, Kat.

I'll have to gain more experience in non-gendered contra; COVID has hampered 
that, significantly. 

Ken Panton
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

I did, in fact, retain Maia's request in front of mind when I posed my
"open and honest" questions. They specifically address the question of,
like the hat in Harry Potter, streaming new arrivals.

"...there is no reason that one role must be danced by one gender and the
other role must be danced by the other. "

I totally agree with you, Perry.

"So when you *are* using larks/robins, then we need to completely erase
gender from the equation and have people understand that there is a lark
and a robin, and you could be either.  Try both roles and see what you are
most comfortable in."

And if there is, in fact, a discernable difference in comfort (for an ab
initio dancer trying out both left and right roles for the first time), I
posit that the various characteristics of the people you encounter while
dancing one role, versus the other, will necessarily be one determinant of
the comfort level.

"And now we are getting beyond Maia's original request of not relitigating
gender free dancing in this thread, so I would politely suggest starting
another thread for those who prefer gendered dancing and calling that is
not this one."

I disagree. Please see above.

Respectfully,

Ken Panton

>
>
>
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[Callers] Re: preference for dancing with opposite gender?

[Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers]

Hi Ken!

Changing the subject line as others suggested.

I would say there is a difference between telling someone "quietly" and telling 
someone "furtively" :)

We do the former and not the latter!

In our group - which for sure is not the same for everyone - but in our group 
we the organizers/volunteer helpers have expressly committed to a gender-free 
environment - so it is important to us not to draw attention to the past 
association between gender and the two dancing roles.
Most of our dancers have no clue there used to be an association: I love that.

It has honestly been magical for our group to witness the transformation that 
ensued in the "vibe" of our dances, once they went gender free.

It used to feel more intense, socially - there was more pressure to get the 
appropriate dance partner, there was more discomfort if you didn't match with 
the one you had hoped to, there was discomfort in avoiding some people.
I'm not saying that has disappeared - but it is palpably less. Many ppl have 
commented on this.

and in our case, our dance numbers are comparable in the gender-free 
environment to what they were previously  (45-90 people per dance), so I feel 
confident that our dancers like this approach just as much as we the organizers 
do...

Kat K

Mar 11, 2024 12:18:34 PM K P :

> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 10:58 Katherine Kitching  wrote:
>> You should sign your name at the bottom! :)
> 
> Indeed! I forgot. :)
> 
> Thanks for the reply of the experience in your community, Kat.
> 
> I am, however, somewhat troubled by one statement you made, below:
> 
> 
>> So it would be impossible in our community to recommend one role because you 
>> will get to dance with more ppl of the opposite gender as a result.  Some 
>> very-long-time members of our community still ask at the door when they need 
>> to choose a tag, which role is the "gents" or "ladies" role because they are 
>> comfortable swinging on that side/standing on that side, SO WE TELL THEM 
>> QUIETLY [emphasis mine].
>>  
>>  
> 
> I'm not quite sure what to make of tiis except to see it as form of shaming 
> that it needs to be mentioned "quietly".  
> 
> ???
> 
> Ken Panton 
>> 
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 10:58 Katherine Kitching  wrote:

> You should sign your name at the bottom! :)
>

Indeed! I forgot. :)

Thanks for the reply of the experience in your community, Kat.

I am, however, somewhat troubled by one statement you made, below:


So it would be impossible in our community to recommend one role because
> you will get to dance with more ppl of the opposite gender as a result.
> Some very-long-time members of our community still ask at the door when
> they need to choose a tag, which role is the "gents" or "ladies" role
> because they are comfortable swinging on that side/standing on that side,
> SO WE TELL THEM QUIETLY [emphasis mine].
>

I'm not quite sure what to make of tiis except to see it as form of shaming
that it needs to be mentioned "quietly".

???

Ken Panton

>
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Perry Shafran via Contra Callers]

 If you wish, you can suggest that the roles might have once been based in 
gender.  But in the larger picture, there is no reason that one role must be 
danced by one gender and the other role must be danced by the other.  Gendered 
terms have suggested that they should, but other than that, there is no reason, 
and that is why genderless terms have been invented and are now coming into 
wider use.  
So when you *are* using larks/robins, then we need to completely erase gender 
from the equation and have people understand that there is a lark and a robin, 
and you could be either.  Try both roles and see what you are most comfortable 
in.  That's the goal of gender free terms.
And now we are getting beyond Maia's original request of not relitigating 
gender free dancing in this thread, so I would politely suggest starting 
another thread for those who prefer gendered dancing and calling that is not 
this one.  
Respectfully,
Perry
On Monday, March 11, 2024 at 10:53:02 AM EDT, K P via Contra Callers 
 wrote:  
 
 John,
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers]

You should sign your name at the bottom! :)

In my group, we have so many beginners each month and so many 
experienced people who have been dancing with us only since we 
introduced the bird roles about 6 years ago, that there is no 
discernible correlation any more between a given role and a given gender.


So it would be impossible in our community to recommend one role because 
you will get to dance with more ppl of the opposite gender as a result.  
Some very-long-time members of our community still ask at the door when 
they need to choose a tag, which role is the "gents" or "ladies" role 
because they are comfortable swinging on that side/standing on that 
side, so we tell them quietly.


Personally, I love the non-gendered dancing.  I feel that it has 
actually increased my enjoyment of dancing with a same-gendered person 
as myself.  Prior to that, when there was an unspoken norm, it still 
felt a bit "weird" to dance with a same-gendered person.


Now that we have so clearly changed the culture in our dances to "we all 
come together to dance in a joyful community, regardless of age, gender, 
level of experience or any other factor" it has really changed the 
entire vibe.  I find it much more comfortable, personally.


Now the big excitement is being paired up with someone who has mastered 
the concept of giving weight :)


Kat K


K P via Contra Callers 
Monday, March 11, 2024 11:52 AM
John,

gender”!


Ya think?  :)

I had what I assume is a similar response when I read that, John.

Aside to John: In this entire, ongoing discussion, it seems to me that 
there is an active conspiracy of pretense (along the lines of 'the 
emperor's new clothes') that the elephant sitting squarely in the 
middle of the room is actually a blueberry muffin.


Open and honest questions:

Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the 
opposite cisgender (realizing that any particular, such opposite, 
cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a different preference)?


If the above is a reasonable question, what is wrong with saying "If 
you have a preference to dance primarily with women, I recommend 
dancing the left role. If you have a preference to dance with men, I'd 
recommend dancing the right-side role; if you have no preference, it 
doesn't matter"?


What is the surveyed percentage of dancers in your community who have 
such a preference vs those who don't?





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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

John Sweeney wrote, in response:

"“Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you
only do the
recent stuff :-)"

John, have you got some good chestnuts with "hides and hairbones" roles?

:)

Cheers,

Ken Panton
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

John,

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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers]

HI all, I wasn't going to respond to this because in my group we do use 
colour-coded tags for Larks and Ravens and I am aware that most groups 
prefer not to do that- but then I did have a thought about our process 
that might be relevant to everyone.


(Incidentally, I love our colour-coded tags for beginner-friendly/ 
beginner-oriented dances, so I'll put a plug in for them.  We put a 
call-out in our community for clear name tag holders of the sort that 
delegates receive at conferences.  We expressly collected two types, the 
ones that pin onto your shirt, and the ones that go around your neck 
with a string - to allow for people preferring one type of the other.

A lovely volunteer made the tags for us.

The lark tags are printed on yellow paper.  They have a lark-shaped 
bird's side-profile, whose beak points towards the right.  Below the 
image it says LARK in all-caps.  The raven tags are printed on green 
paper with the same set-up, except the raven profile points towards the 
left.


So when couples stand beside each other, it is so visually easy for them 
and for the caller and for helpers to see if they are properly matched 
up with someone of the other bird role and then we teach them about 
the "beak rule" - if the couple is standing in the correct orientation 
relative to each other,  the beaks of each bird point inwards towards 
the other).


Anyhow, we love this system but I recognize it isn't for everyone.
What I wanted to share is about the way we assign bird roles.

We have a basket with all the "bird tags" at the entrance table, and as 
people enter, our door volunteers explain that in the dance, there are 
two nearly equivalent roles, and new dancers should choose one role to 
stick with for the night.  Since people often come to the dance in small 
groups of 2 or more, we explain that if you want to be able to dance 
with a certain friend you came with, it will make sense for each of you 
to choose the opposite role so you can be paired up together.
The volunteers also keep rough track in their head of odd-numbered 
guests who come in and choose a tag, so that they can encourage the next 
person who comes in to choose the opposite tag.


This way by the time everyone comes together in a big teaching circle, 
we are pretty sure we have even numbers of larks and ravens.


One of the first things I do, after the general introduction, is ask 
everyone to temporarily pair up with someone of the opposite bird role 
holding inside hands, to check if there is an excess number of one bird 
or the other, in which case our volunteers quickly come around with more 
tags, to fix the situation.


(I'll also point out that we have many experienced dancers in our  group 
who enjoy being able to switch roles to fill a void, so these folks 
dance with a special tag, with the other bird role hidden behind the 
first one, in their plastic sleeve, for quick switches!)


Anyhow, I was thinking - even without physical tags or other markers, 
would it still be worth considering an approach of assigning people 
their bird roles as they enter the hall?
And that way you can advise people as we do, that if you are with a 
friend who you hope to dance with at some point in the evening, you 
should not choose the same role?


Kat K in Hfx
Maia McCormick via Contra Callers 


Sunday, March 10, 2024 11:47 AM
Hey there, hive mind,

When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?

I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", 
I've seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the 
right of your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick 
whichever bird you like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a 
little easier so do that if you feel less confident"...


I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and 
how you find it works for you in practice.


(Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the 
bird terms in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate 
thread.)


Swingingly,
Maia


--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[John Sweeney via Contra Callers]

“the roles have a loose base in gender.”???

 

Perhaps, “the roles were originally (completely and utterly) based on gender”!

 

Happy dancing,

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   
   

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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Perry Shafran via Contra Callers]

 Hi, Maia, all,
I have seen a few choices at our weekly dance, and Louise when she called for 
us did a great job.  I think some of the things that have been said in this 
thread kind of work well, and I have continued to adjust the way I teach based 
on some of the things I have seen and have read.  Having people try both roles 
is great.  
I am not sure I'd go into the history of genders because that will get the 
nugget of info in dancers' heads that the roles have a loose base in gender.  I 
think we might consider never even talking gender at all.
One issue that has befuddled me is actually how to deal with the experienced 
dancers who join the lesson as the ringers.  We love our experienced dancers 
coming early to help out!  Except, I'd like to not have experienced dancers put 
their own agenda into the lesson by forcing gender roles if they are not fans 
of gender free dancing.  I've seen that done and then the lesson becomes 
gendered even as I insist on teaching in a gender free way.  I think finding 
ways for people to try both roles at times of the lesson certainly is ideal to 
continue to reinforce gender free dancing, but I don't think that experienced 
dancers should be going against the instructor and forcing gendered dancing.
Perry
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:47:55 AM EDT, Maia McCormick via Contra 
Callers  wrote:  
 
 Hey there, hive mind,
When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do youa. explain 
the roles to the new folks, andb. put the beginners into roles for the duration 
of the lesson?
I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've seen 
"unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of your 
partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you like 
better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if you feel 
less confident"...
I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how you 
find it works for you in practice.
(Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the bird terms 
in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate thread.)
Swingingly,Maia

--Maia McCormick 
(she/her)917.279.8194___
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