Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 12:40, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Frederic: > > Again, I NEVER said GTK is not able to do this.. It can be done using > > gtkrc file !! > > I thought you said that Galaxy had hard coded colors? If so, is changing the > gtkrc file going to do any good? > I think he meant that they were written in the necessary files, but could not be modified on the fly in a pref dialog or passed as parameters. Fortunately, it seems they are hard coded in a text file, so you could try playing with it. I would start tweaking /usr/share/themes/Galaxy/gtk-2.0/gtkrc just to see what it does... -- Quel Qun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Frederic: > Again, I NEVER said GTK is not able to do this.. It can be done using > gtkrc file !! I thought you said that Galaxy had hard coded colors? If so, is changing the gtkrc file going to do any good? -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+V+AzK37Cns9gJ0gRAgUwAJ9Wi6HJnJMeCDGevgpgp9Ym20Dz0ACfViDX VuQHKhqN4VPX3KBbKWSOV94= =ux+H -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > Well, define "normal". Most Microsoft apps are fine, but when I ran XP I > encountered quite a lot of third-party apps which were in the situation > you describe (looking grey and win98-ish). Hmm... I guess for normal, I'd say anything that is perhaps a top-100 or 200 app? Stuff like Office, WordPerfect, ICQ, AIM, AOL, PartitionMagic, RealONE, Acrobat, etc.. -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+V94eK37Cns9gJ0gRAoqpAKCAOJIKuDAT4W/26va3N1bzcissfgCfYQtc 1ihjtuGV3LEK+i8JUH31QTo= =aJyn -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Saturday 22 February 2003 12:15 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:04:56 -0600, Bret Baptist wrote: >> On Friday 21 February 2003 9:54 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: >>> I think I made my point very clear.. It is a "bug" in Kcontrol.. >> It is a "bug" because another toolkit doesn't have to ability to do it? >> Interesting. > Again, I NEVER said GTK is not able to do this.. It can be done using > gtkrc file !! Yes, author of Geramik weighed in on the bug to say so. And speaking of replies to bugs, the next release of Konqueror will have `copy link' entry if you right-click a bookmark, so you don't have to visit a bookmarked page or edit the bookmarks in order to pull out the URL and paste it into a doc or email. Hurrah! Thank you faure/lypanov AT kde.org! Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 04:11, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > > That's exactly what happens with many Windows apps... > > You have a lot of normal Windows applications where they won't change color? > I've never encountered any... Well, define "normal". Most Microsoft apps are fine, but when I ran XP I encountered quite a lot of third-party apps which were in the situation you describe (looking grey and win98-ish). -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 21 February 2003 10:01 pm, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 03:19, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > > I think the person commenting on Windows was missing the point. If I'm > > in an app, and the tool bar buttons are 3D (Win95 style) rather than flat > > (WinXP style), is that going to really catch my attention? Maybe a bit. > > If, instead, however, the Win95-like ones were grey and the WinXP ones > > where blue, then I'd notice something DEFINATELY wasn't right. This is > > GNU/Linux's problem. Color. Not theming... color. > > That's exactly what happens with many Windows apps... You have a lot of normal Windows applications where they won't change color? I've never encountered any... -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+VvhvK37Cns9gJ0gRAiq5AJ9T9wUxGqsnhq6HBw4KlvfUYo/rlwCffK72 yopYdxy+ORM0FEQ8GayZWss= =dBpH -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 03:19, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > I think the person commenting on Windows was missing the point. If I'm in an > app, and the tool bar buttons are 3D (Win95 style) rather than flat (WinXP > style), is that going to really catch my attention? Maybe a bit. If, instead, > however, the Win95-like ones were grey and the WinXP ones where blue, then > I'd notice something DEFINATELY wasn't right. This is GNU/Linux's problem. > Color. Not theming... color. That's exactly what happens with many Windows apps... -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 21 February 2003 08:29 pm, Benjamin Pflugmann wrote: > On Fri 2003-02-21 at 10:01:23 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Friday 21 February 2003 9:50 am, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On Fri, 2003-02-21 at 15:44, Bret Baptist wrote: > > > > do. "Windows handles color changes without a problem." The only way > > > > to > > > > > > I find this ironic. Windows is actually *really bad* in this very area. > > > The problem is they change their appearance too often. There are lots > > > of apps which were too lazy to be coded properly and just hard-coded a > > > Win98-style appearance into themselves. These now look hideously out of > > > place under WinXP, unless you give up XP's new-style interface and make > > > it into Win2000 :). There's even some old apps that still look like > > > Windows 3.1! By no means do all of these respond correctly to theme > > > changes, either. Windows isn't a very good model for how to this (or, > > > indeed, anything else :>) > > > > So we shouldn't work to be *better* than windows? > > Oh, come on! He never said anything like that. > > He simply said that it was an ironic choice to compare against > Microsoft Windows in this matter. I think the person commenting on Windows was missing the point. If I'm in an app, and the tool bar buttons are 3D (Win95 style) rather than flat (WinXP style), is that going to really catch my attention? Maybe a bit. If, instead, however, the Win95-like ones were grey and the WinXP ones where blue, then I'd notice something DEFINATELY wasn't right. This is GNU/Linux's problem. Color. Not theming... color. -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Vuw7K37Cns9gJ0gRArapAJ9dsLgdGU9BHzDMomjsQKPkU0pcRwCdGmyC ZoV3pkIXZnfdH9oF5USIRW8= =PmgC -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri 2003-02-21 at 10:01:23 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Friday 21 February 2003 9:50 am, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2003-02-21 at 15:44, Bret Baptist wrote: > > > do. "Windows handles color changes without a problem." The only way to > > > > I find this ironic. Windows is actually *really bad* in this very area. > > The problem is they change their appearance too often. There are lots of > > apps which were too lazy to be coded properly and just hard-coded a > > Win98-style appearance into themselves. These now look hideously out of > > place under WinXP, unless you give up XP's new-style interface and make > > it into Win2000 :). There's even some old apps that still look like > > Windows 3.1! By no means do all of these respond correctly to theme > > changes, either. Windows isn't a very good model for how to this (or, > > indeed, anything else :>) > > So we shouldn't work to be *better* than windows? Oh, come on! He never said anything like that. He simply said that it was an ironic choice to compare against Microsoft Windows in this matter. Bye, Benjamin. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
Frederic Wrote: > I think you are completely missing my point : a theme for a specific > toolkit MUST be desktop (and other toolkits) agnostic.. If you need to > patch your theme to read another toolkit settings, this mean something > is broken elsewhere.. You are fixing the consequences of the bug, not > the bug itself.. I suppose the "bug itself" is that KDE/Qt and GNOME/GTK use different color files, and thus each toolkit should be patched to fix this. However, even then, since a GTK theme like Galaxy has hard coded colors, at least part of the "bug" is indeed in Galaxy's court to fix. However, we must also consider this: what is the purpose of a "distribution"? Is it simply to pile a bunch of apps onto a CD? No, its to fill in the areas that aren't handled by other software and to turn a bunch of Linux and GNU packages into something useful. As I said before, using "menu" to keep KDE/GNOME/whatever else menus sync'ed isn't necessarily fixing the bug, but "fixing the consequences of the bug." However, lets face it: it is the smart way to do things until upstream fixes the "bug" completely. It works well. Likewise, a GTK theme that works with .qtrc (which you may feel free to rename, or you can create a cron job that creates a seperate .gtkcolor file if you don't want to be associated with Qt ;-)) is a good way to solve the problem of keeping colors in sync. If we apply the "don't fix the consequence" solution to menus, we would still have GNOME menus with one set of applications and KDE with another. Surely we don't want that. So why do we want the color equivilent of that? -Tim -- Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederic Wrote: > I think you are completely missing my point : a theme for a specific > toolkit MUST be desktop (and other toolkits) agnostic.. If you need to > patch your theme to read another toolkit settings, this mean something > is broken elsewhere.. You are fixing the consequences of the bug, not > the bug itself.. I suppose the "bug itself" is that KDE/Qt and GNOME/GTK use different color files, and thus each toolkit should be patched to fix this. However, even then, since a GTK theme like Galaxy has hard coded colors, at least part of the "bug" is indeed in Galaxy's court to fix. However, we must also consider this: what is the purpose of a "distribution"? Is it simply to pile a bunch of apps onto a CD? No, its to fill in the areas that aren't handled by other software and to turn a bunch of Linux and GNU packages into something useful. As I said before, using "menu" to keep KDE/GNOME/whatever else menus sync'ed isn't necessarily fixing the bug, but "fixing the consequences of the bug." However, lets face it: it is the smart way to do things until upstream fixes the "bug" completely. It works well. Likewise, a GTK theme that works with .qtrc (which you may feel free to rename, or you can create a cron job that creates a seperate .gtkcolor file if you don't want to be associated with Qt ;-)) is a good way to solve the problem of keeping colors in sync. If we apply the "don't fix the consequence" solution to menus, we would still have GNOME menus with one set of applications and KDE with another. Surely we don't want that. So why do we want the color equivilent of that? -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Vsw0K37Cns9gJ0gRAnzeAJ0U7l6DkH2JxeZeIF0r9GpgPmoycACePJTN WbqLz/70TFLqClXvfTbxShg= =rv2k -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
Frederic Crozat wrote: I think you are completely missing my point : a theme for a specific toolkit MUST be desktop (and other toolkits) agnostic.. If you need to patch your theme to read another toolkit settings, this mean something is broken elsewhere.. You are fixing the consequences of the bug, not the bug itself.. That doesn't make any sense. The only reliable way for a theme for two toolkits to keep consistent settings it to have those settings stored in ONE file. Whether that file is .gtkrc, .qt/qtrc, .galaxyrc is not relevant.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > Your request is about two different things : > 1/our theme should adapt to KDE colors settings ...or a global color setting file. It's convenient to use the qtrc file to do so though, yes. But, emphasis on the fact that I also suggested their should be a Gnome tool to modify the color file too, so that it isn't a KDE color file but a unified color scheme (what users expect when coming from other OSes). > 1/ is WRONG by design.. a GTK (or any other toolkit BTW) theme should > never be adapted to detect which colors the current desktop (whatever > desktop environment) is running.. I don't care if ONE theme (Geramik) is > doing that, this is wrong.. Again, I'm not suggesting desktop environment detection. Rather, I am suggesting both Gnome and KDE grab color info from the same place. Just like KDE and GNOME have been working to share clipboard info, dot-desktop file format info, etc. Or, in a Mandrake-centric example, just like how "menu" coordinates menu entries between KDE and GNOME. > It is up to the desktop environment to configure GTK theme color > settings.. This is why this bug is invalid.. It should be filed against > kdebase (and upstream, not to Mdk database :)) :-) I really should file a bug report in KDE and GNOME. This is something that needs cooperation between the two. Although, I'd really love to see Mandrake fix it in the mean time (again, just like Menu does until the day when KDE and GNOME can agree on a single menu location and layout). > 2/galaxy (GTK) should be adaptable.. > > Our theme was design by our graphic team with a specific color set.. It > has not been designed to allow all sorts of color changes.. This is why > this bug was INVALID (ok, on this part, it could be a WONTFIX..) If you'd switch the status to won't fix, I'd appreciate it. That way in the future it might be caught for review when you or someone else is trying to think of the next big thing to improve MDK. :-) > I think everybody already know my feelings reading Gemarik :)) True. :-\ > > Since you are a Gnome developer, it may be that you think that I'm > > suggesting that Gnome become "subserviant" to KDE in this manor. I am not > > -- I am suggesting that both Gnome and KDE coordinate colors in Mandrake > > 9.1, thus raising usability to be more like that of Mac OS or Windows. > > Agreed.. As I said above, this should be filled upstream.. I hope it is. -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+VogGK37Cns9gJ0gRApdwAJ4xoxn1t6cvMoVG64KGYSqbDI3Y8ACfeTwQ SRFyEoX2mZI5LrHTi/eAEoM= =aBVE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not > the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the > consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is > to fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). It's not really a KDE problem is the problem. KDE can't modify a GTK theme with a set color palette, afaik. From what you are saying Galaxy has a hard coded color palette without any way to change it -- thus KDE *cannot* change the colors. :-) If you go with non-themed GTK, KDE will indeed support changing the colors, as it can -- but it can't if the theme doesn't support it. > FYI, GNOME doesn't have dialog to change theme colors... So this problem > is currently not a problem under GNOME.. Unless you consider the fact that 95-97% of computer users are use to an environment that supports color changing. > What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of view.. Actually, it's more of a KDE/Windows/BeOS/QNX centric point of view. Of course, that second one is the core one if Mandrake wishes to be taken seriously from those currently using that "other" system. KDE supports color changing, in part (I'm sure), because every version of Windows for at least 13 years has supported it too. -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Vn0YK37Cns9gJ0gRAhZtAJ9YkigDqaUXafNTU9AFNemp7HUAsQCcDdWL Z+khri2Wc+6KopWFyo2cejI= =1ABW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:04:56 -0600, Bret Baptist wrote: > On Friday 21 February 2003 9:54 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: >> I think I made my point very clear.. It is a "bug" in Kcontrol.. > > It is a "bug" because another toolkit doesn't have to ability to do it? > Interesting. Again, I NEVER said GTK is not able to do this.. It can be done using gtkrc file !! >> There is >> also a project to let GTK and QT discover the color used by the other >> toolkits (using XSettings).. > > Do you have a link that I could reference? Thanks. No sorry, just got the info from GTK folks.. Read about XSettings on freedesktop.org.. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
RE: Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
>>I think I made my point very clear.. It is a "bug" in Kcontrol.. There is"bug" in KControl, I think not! KControl does already export some colour settings -via ~/.gtkrc-kde. Perhaps Galaxy could be modified to read/use this? I'm not a GTKexpert - and I'll gladly admit that Geramik and QtCurve are more hacked up to get thecolours right, than done properly. But at least they work, and for me (and quite a fewothers) this is good enough.>also a project to let GTK and QT discover the color used by the other>toolkits (using XSettings)..Well this currently does not exist - if and when it does, it's just a matter ofremoving the code to read Qt's settings (hardly rocket sience...).>>-- >Frederic Crozat>MandrakeSoft>Craig.When words aren't enough - Vodafone live! A new world of colour, sounds, picture messages and information on your mobile. Click here to find out more.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Friday 21 February 2003 9:54 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: > I think I made my point very clear.. It is a "bug" in Kcontrol.. It is a "bug" because another toolkit doesn't have to ability to do it? Interesting. > There is > also a project to let GTK and QT discover the color used by the other > toolkits (using XSettings).. Do you have a link that I could reference? Thanks. -- Bret Baptist Systems and Technical Support Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Exposure, Inc. http://www.iexposure.com (612)676-1946 x17 Web Development-Web Marketing-ISP Services -- Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Friday 21 February 2003 9:50 am, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2003-02-21 at 15:44, Bret Baptist wrote: > > do. "Windows handles color changes without a problem." The only way to > > I find this ironic. Windows is actually *really bad* in this very area. > The problem is they change their appearance too often. There are lots of > apps which were too lazy to be coded properly and just hard-coded a > Win98-style appearance into themselves. These now look hideously out of > place under WinXP, unless you give up XP's new-style interface and make > it into Win2000 :). There's even some old apps that still look like > Windows 3.1! By no means do all of these respond correctly to theme > changes, either. Windows isn't a very good model for how to this (or, > indeed, anything else :>) So we shouldn't work to be *better* than windows? -- Bret Baptist Systems and Technical Support Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Exposure, Inc. http://www.iexposure.com (612)676-1946 x17 Web Development-Web Marketing-ISP Services -- Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri, 2003-02-21 at 15:44, Bret Baptist wrote: > do. "Windows handles color changes without a problem." The only way to I find this ironic. Windows is actually *really bad* in this very area. The problem is they change their appearance too often. There are lots of apps which were too lazy to be coded properly and just hard-coded a Win98-style appearance into themselves. These now look hideously out of place under WinXP, unless you give up XP's new-style interface and make it into Win2000 :). There's even some old apps that still look like Windows 3.1! By no means do all of these respond correctly to theme changes, either. Windows isn't a very good model for how to this (or, indeed, anything else :>) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:44:50 -0600, Bret Baptist wrote: > On Friday 21 February 2003 9:14 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: >> >> What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of >> >> view.. >> > >> > No, I think that it is based on the most customization possible point of >> > view. The reason that it seems to be KDE centric is because it *has* the >> > ability to be customizable. >> >> About customizations, I suggest you read Havoc article : >> >> http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html > > A very good article that backs up what you have been saying in some areas and > supports what a few of us have been saying in others. > > I quote: > "So how is the decision [to add a preference] made? It's a judgment call. I > try to go through some questions like these: > > 1. Ask questions to find out what's really bugging someone who requests a > preference. What is the annoyance or inefficiency that prompted them to ask? > > 2. Can said annoyance be made to go away for all users without requiring a > preference? If so, just do that. You may have to think about the big picture > of the UI to figure out how to make it Just Work. > > 3. Is the annoyance or inefficiency really significant, or did it cost them 1 > second doing something that users do once per week on average? If it's just > some trivial thing, then the extra feature or preference probably costs more > than it's worth, even if you can't make things Just Work. > > 4. Does any other OS have this feature or preference? I'm all for innovation, > but if no one else is doing something, you should think it through twice to > be sure there isn't a reason they aren't doing it. If you're appropriately > humble you'll probably find that a lot of thought and user testing has gone > into the currently popular platforms." > > > The only question that we can't answer yes to is number 3, if it is trivial or > not. I think that all the others we can say with a fair degree of certainty, > yes. In the case of number 4, other OSes having this feature, I would say > that most of them do have the abiltity to look the same across almost all > apps when you change the color of the widgets. > > The main reason I am pushing this is I have seen what people said about > Redhat's BlueCurve. It was lambasted in some circles solely for the color > customization issue, I don't want the same to happen to Mandrake's Galaxy. > If you are going to make things look the same, then you should probably make > sure that they *always* look the same. The first time Linux user who goes > into KControl and selects a different color scheme and finds their Gimp > looking very out of place is going to get a bad impression of what Linux can > do. "Windows handles color changes without a problem." The only way to > really "fix" the issue is to pull the color settings module from KControl, > not a good option at all, or make it so that the color scheme is the same > between GTK and QT. Does this make any sense? Or am I just talkin' outa my > ass? I think I made my point very clear.. It is a "bug" in Kcontrol.. There is also a project to let GTK and QT discover the color used by the other toolkits (using XSettings).. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Friday 21 February 2003 9:14 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: > >> What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of > >> view.. > > > > No, I think that it is based on the most customization possible point of > > view. The reason that it seems to be KDE centric is because it *has* the > > ability to be customizable. > > About customizations, I suggest you read Havoc article : > > http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html A very good article that backs up what you have been saying in some areas and supports what a few of us have been saying in others. I quote: "So how is the decision [to add a preference] made? It's a judgment call. I try to go through some questions like these: 1. Ask questions to find out what's really bugging someone who requests a preference. What is the annoyance or inefficiency that prompted them to ask? 2. Can said annoyance be made to go away for all users without requiring a preference? If so, just do that. You may have to think about the big picture of the UI to figure out how to make it Just Work. 3. Is the annoyance or inefficiency really significant, or did it cost them 1 second doing something that users do once per week on average? If it's just some trivial thing, then the extra feature or preference probably costs more than it's worth, even if you can't make things Just Work. 4. Does any other OS have this feature or preference? I'm all for innovation, but if no one else is doing something, you should think it through twice to be sure there isn't a reason they aren't doing it. If you're appropriately humble you'll probably find that a lot of thought and user testing has gone into the currently popular platforms." The only question that we can't answer yes to is number 3, if it is trivial or not. I think that all the others we can say with a fair degree of certainty, yes. In the case of number 4, other OSes having this feature, I would say that most of them do have the abiltity to look the same across almost all apps when you change the color of the widgets. The main reason I am pushing this is I have seen what people said about Redhat's BlueCurve. It was lambasted in some circles solely for the color customization issue, I don't want the same to happen to Mandrake's Galaxy. If you are going to make things look the same, then you should probably make sure that they *always* look the same. The first time Linux user who goes into KControl and selects a different color scheme and finds their Gimp looking very out of place is going to get a bad impression of what Linux can do. "Windows handles color changes without a problem." The only way to really "fix" the issue is to pull the color settings module from KControl, not a good option at all, or make it so that the color scheme is the same between GTK and QT. Does this make any sense? Or am I just talkin' outa my ass? -- Bret Baptist Systems and Technical Support Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Exposure, Inc. http://www.iexposure.com (612)676-1946 x17 Web Development-Web Marketing-ISP Services -- Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
RE: Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
>> No, I think that it is based on the most customization possible point of view. >> The reason that it seems to be KDE centric is because it *has* the ability to >> be customizable.>>About customizations, I suggest you read Havoc article : >>http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.htmlWell then - if GNOME is not going to allow setting of widget colours (because it'd beway to complicated for normal computer users...), then having a theme read ~/.qt/qtrcis the *only* way that it's gonna be consistent between toolkits.>>-- >Frederic Crozat>MandrakeSoft>Craig.When words aren't enough - Vodafone live! A new world of colour, sounds, picture messages and information on your mobile. Click here to find out more.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:59:28 -0600, Bret Baptist wrote: > On Friday 21 February 2003 6:22 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: >> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:58:01 +0100, Craig Drummond wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > In reply to Frederic Crozat, I'd like to know why the folowing is >> > WRONG??? >> > >> >> 1/ is WRONG by design.. a GTK (or any other toolkit BTW) theme should >> >> never be adapted to detect which colors the current desktop (whatever >> >> desktop environment) is running.. I don't care if ONE theme (Geramik) is >> >> doing that, this is wrong.. >> > >> > ...because? The only reason I can see is that Geramik reads its colour >> > settings from a Qt/KDE based config file. What's the problem with this? >> > Isn't it better that a theme designed as multi-toolkit (Geramik, QtCurve, >> > Blue/FreeCuve, Galaxy) also use the same colour settings? Otherwise, >> > what's the point? Hard-coding colours into a theme is just plain lazy. I >> > don't use GNOME, so I'm not sure if you can change colours there. If not, >> > then wouldn't the best thing to do be create a GNOME control >> > centre-applet that sets GNOME colours, and also writes these to ~/.qt/qtc >> > (and the KDE files)? >> > >> > Also the theme is not adapting itself to whatever desktop is running - it >> > does not know which desktop is running - it just *always* reads its >> > colour from the qt file. >> >> I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not >> the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the >> consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is >> to fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). >> >> FYI, GNOME doesn't have dialog to change theme colors... So this problem >> is currently not a problem under GNOME.. >> > > Sooo you are saying that a limitation that GTK has, that can be fairly easily > overcome, should not be done? You think that we should take a step back to > only taking the colors for themes that theme authors give us? That seems a > *bit* backwards to me. One of the things that sooo many people love about > Linux is being able to customize it how they like. I haven't said there is a limitation in GTK.. I've said this task belong to the desktop environment, not the toolkit not the theme engine.. >> What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of view.. > > No, I think that it is based on the most customization possible point of view. > The reason that it seems to be KDE centric is because it *has* the ability to > be customizable. About customizations, I suggest you read Havoc article : http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Friday 21 February 2003 6:22 am, Frederic Crozat wrote: > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:58:01 +0100, Craig Drummond wrote: > > Hi, > > > > In reply to Frederic Crozat, I'd like to know why the folowing is > > WRONG??? > > > >> 1/ is WRONG by design.. a GTK (or any other toolkit BTW) theme should > >> never be adapted to detect which colors the current desktop (whatever > >> desktop environment) is running.. I don't care if ONE theme (Geramik) is > >> doing that, this is wrong.. > > > > ...because? The only reason I can see is that Geramik reads its colour > > settings from a Qt/KDE based config file. What's the problem with this? > > Isn't it better that a theme designed as multi-toolkit (Geramik, QtCurve, > > Blue/FreeCuve, Galaxy) also use the same colour settings? Otherwise, > > what's the point? Hard-coding colours into a theme is just plain lazy. I > > don't use GNOME, so I'm not sure if you can change colours there. If not, > > then wouldn't the best thing to do be create a GNOME control > > centre-applet that sets GNOME colours, and also writes these to ~/.qt/qtc > > (and the KDE files)? > > > > Also the theme is not adapting itself to whatever desktop is running - it > > does not know which desktop is running - it just *always* reads its > > colour from the qt file. > > I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not > the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the > consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is > to fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). > > FYI, GNOME doesn't have dialog to change theme colors... So this problem > is currently not a problem under GNOME.. > Sooo you are saying that a limitation that GTK has, that can be fairly easily overcome, should not be done? You think that we should take a step back to only taking the colors for themes that theme authors give us? That seems a *bit* backwards to me. One of the things that sooo many people love about Linux is being able to customize it how they like. > What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of view.. No, I think that it is based on the most customization possible point of view. The reason that it seems to be KDE centric is because it *has* the ability to be customizable. -- Bret Baptist Systems and Technical Support Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Exposure, Inc. http://www.iexposure.com (612)676-1946 x17 Web Development-Web Marketing-ISP Services -- Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
RE: Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
Forgot to send this to th elist... >I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not >the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the >consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is to >fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). But the desktop (KDE) IS adapting the theme - the theme is then just reading the colours from ~/.qt/qtrc. So the only thing KDE is not doing is explicitly setting GTK colours. I'm not sure if you can do this - as you say below GNOME can't. So, your main objection to Geramik, QtCuve, etc is that they read the colours from ~/.qt/qtrc and not ~/.gtkrc? Is this that BIG of an issue? It's still a resouce file, no? Therefore, I still fail to see what the problem is. It looks as if your just saying - I use GNOME, it doesn't support changing colours, so sod everything else. Allowing Galaxy to change its colours via qtrc would have no effect if the user never changed the colours via QtConfig or KControl - so there is no problem. However, if a user wishes to customise it they can - giving them the choice. > >FYI, GNOME doesn't have dialog to change theme colors... So this problem >is currently not a problem under GNOME.. Well it is a problem under GNOME - why should users not be able to set the colours of themes? > >What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of view.. Nope - just someone who likes to change colours - and have both toolkits look the same. Your objects are from a GNOME centric view. > >-- >Frederic Crozat >MandrakeSoft > > Craig. p.s. What follows is added by stooopid lycos... - When words aren't enough - Vodafone live! A new world of colour, sounds, picture messages and information on your mobile. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4909903;7724245;q?http://www.vodafone.co.uk/live";> Click here to find out more.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:37:03 -0500, David Walser wrote: > Frederic Crozat wrote: >> I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not >> the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the >> consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is to >> fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). > > Actually KDE can write .gtkrc files (actually .gtkrc-kde), but the > Geramik way of doing it works much much better. Then, KDE way of writing .gtkrc should be fixed... -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
[Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
Frederic Crozat wrote: I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is to fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). Actually KDE can write .gtkrc files (actually .gtkrc-kde), but the Geramik way of doing it works much much better.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:58:01 +0100, Craig Drummond wrote: > Hi, > > In reply to Frederic Crozat, I'd like to know why the folowing is WRONG??? > >> 1/ is WRONG by design.. a GTK (or any other toolkit BTW) theme should >> never be adapted to detect which colors the current desktop (whatever >> desktop environment) is running.. I don't care if ONE theme (Geramik) is >> doing that, this is wrong.. > > ...because? The only reason I can see is that Geramik reads its colour settings > from a Qt/KDE based config file. What's the problem with this? Isn't it better > that a theme designed as multi-toolkit (Geramik, QtCurve, Blue/FreeCuve, Galaxy) > also use the same colour settings? Otherwise, what's the point? Hard-coding > colours into a theme is just plain lazy. I don't use GNOME, so I'm not sure if > you can change colours there. If not, then wouldn't the best thing to do be > create a GNOME control centre-applet that sets GNOME colours, and also writes > these to ~/.qt/qtc (and the KDE files)? > Also the theme is not adapting itself to whatever desktop is running - it does > not know which desktop is running - it just *always* reads its colour from the > qt file. I already explain it is up to the DESKTOP environment to adapt theme, not the reverse... Geramik approach is wrong by design.. It is fixing the consequences of KDE not customizing GTK theme colors.. The best approach is to fix root of the problem (ie KDE not customizing theme colors). FYI, GNOME doesn't have dialog to change theme colors... So this problem is currently not a problem under GNOME.. What you are asking for is clearly based on a KDE centric point of view.. -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
Hi, In reply to Frederic Crozat, I'd like to know why the folowing is WRONG??? > 1/ is WRONG by design.. a GTK (or any other toolkit BTW) theme should > never be adapted to detect which colors the current desktop (whatever > desktop environment) is running.. I don't care if ONE theme (Geramik) is > doing that, this is wrong.. ...because? The only reason I can see is that Geramik reads its colour settings from a Qt/KDE based config file. What's the problem with this? Isn't it better that a theme designed as multi-toolkit (Geramik, QtCurve, Blue/FreeCuve, Galaxy) also use the same colour settings? Otherwise, what's the point? Hard-coding colours into a theme is just plain lazy. I don't use GNOME, so I'm not sure if you can change colours there. If not, then wouldn't the best thing to do be create a GNOME control centre-applet that sets GNOME colours, and also writes these to ~/.qt/qtc (and the KDE files)? Also the theme is not adapting itself to whatever desktop is running - it does not know which desktop is running - it just *always* reads its colour from the qt file. I can understand someone not liking Geramik because it is pixmap based - and this is a fair complaint. But to complain because it unifies the colour settings is to disregard what a LOT of users want. Surely Mandrake, as a desktop based distro, is better of trying to get as much of a unified lookas possible. If so, then why not have the theme synchronise its colours between toolkits? Saying that the user should use KDE's means to change the KDE theme, and GTK's to change GTK's takes away the whole point of the theme - to unify things. Craig. p.s. I'll admit to a slight bias here, benig the author of Geramik and QtCurve (well not so much author I suppose, as modifier...) When words aren't enough - Vodafone live! A new world of colour, sounds, picture messages and information on your mobile. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4909903;7724245;q?http://www.vodafone.co.uk/live";> Click here to find out more.
Re: [Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:56:55 -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Frederik, > >> I already explained why it is INVALID.. > > Actually you had not. It didn't seem you understood my bug report, as you > addressed the issue of D.E. detection - an entirely different concept. Your request is about two different things : 1/our theme should adapt to KDE colors settings 2/our theme color settings should adaptable.. 1/ is WRONG by design.. a GTK (or any other toolkit BTW) theme should never be adapted to detect which colors the current desktop (whatever desktop environment) is running.. I don't care if ONE theme (Geramik) is doing that, this is wrong.. It is up to the desktop environment to configure GTK theme color settings.. This is why this bug is invalid.. It should be filed against kdebase (and upstream, not to Mdk database :)) 2/galaxy (GTK) should be adaptable.. Our theme was design by our graphic team with a specific color set.. It has not been designed to allow all sorts of color changes.. This is why this bug was INVALID (ok, on this part, it could be a WONTFIX..) >> Bugzilla is not a place to discuss, cooker is the right place.. > > I already had made similar suggestion on Cooker concerning Geramik, which got > a postitive response. I would appreciate a response to the content of my > response. I think everybody already know my feelings reading Gemarik :)) > Since you are a Gnome developer, it may be that you think that I'm suggesting > that Gnome become "subserviant" to KDE in this manor. I am not -- I am > suggesting that both Gnome and KDE coordinate colors in Mandrake 9.1, thus > raising usability to be more like that of Mac OS or Windows. Agreed.. As I said above, this should be filled upstream.. Also responding to Bret Baptist : >There is no reason to not allow color changes in a non-pixmap GTK theme. Just >look what this guy has done with RedHats Bluecurve. Do you think we can use >this engine's code? >This would allow people to have the same color scheme across GTK and QT. With >a simple app in Gnome you could adjust both GTK and QT color settings. I suggest you look at Bluecurve (aka Wonderland) and at Galaxy (GTK) code.. Galaxy uses a fixed set of colors (8 shades of gray, 3 shades of blue + 1 or 2 other colors of arrow and stuff like that) our graphic designer tested on several displays to make sure they looks OK.. BlueCurve only uses 3 colors and from these 3 colors, it generates its own palette. I agree we could make our palette configurable but I'm afraid drawing could be screwed a lot because of the theme design.. Moreover, it would be fondamentaly broken to have our own app to configure the theme.. If it should be configurable, it should autoconfigure itself as much as possible.. This is CLEARLY not a job for Mdk 9.1... -- Frederic Crozat MandrakeSoft
[Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color Scheme to Match KDE's.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Frederik, > I already explained why it is INVALID.. Actually you had not. It didn't seem you understood my bug report, as you addressed the issue of D.E. detection - an entirely different concept. > Bugzilla is not a place to discuss, cooker is the right place.. I already had made similar suggestion on Cooker concerning Geramik, which got a postitive response. I would appreciate a response to the content of my response. Since you are a Gnome developer, it may be that you think that I'm suggesting that Gnome become "subserviant" to KDE in this manor. I am not -- I am suggesting that both Gnome and KDE coordinate colors in Mandrake 9.1, thus raising usability to be more like that of Mac OS or Windows. -Tim On Thursday 20 February 2003 01:26 pm, fcrozat wrote: > https://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1967 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] changed: > >What|Removed |Added > --- >- Status|NEW |RESOLVED > Resolution||INVALID > > > > --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2003-02-20 20:26 > --- Please, do NOT reopen bug closed as INVALID.. > > I already explained why it is INVALID.. > > Bugzilla is not a place to discuss, cooker is the right place.. > > > > --- You are receiving this mail because: --- > You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter. > > > > --- Reminder: --- > assigned_to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > status: RESOLVED > creation_date: > description: > Hi, > I noticed that Mandrake Galaxy gtk, while much nicer looking atm than > Mandrake Galaxy KDE, does not seem to be able to change colors, at > least that I've noticed. The issue being that if I'm using KDE, like many > of your users are, I may choose to change the color scheme, which inturn > causes GTK stuff to stick out really badly. > > There is a very easy way to solve this, which is why I am reporting this. > libqtpixmap, a derivative of the libpixmap engine employed by most GTK > themes, does color matching with KDE's color settings. Now, I'm not sure > how Galaxy's theme engine works, but I'm assuming importing the code for > this other engine (which is the one used for Geramik, by the way) would be > relatively easy. If, on top of that, you made a little tool to adjust the > color settings from Gnome, Mandrake would be the FIRST distribution (afaik) > to offer both KDE and Gnome users and easy way to keep all major > applications using the same color scheme! > > This would dramatically improve Galaxy and fix a major usability "bug" > between KDE and Gnome that has never been solved before right out of > the box. Using a static color palate in GTK apps is alright, but the whole > unified look is only good so long as no one changes the KDE color > scheme. I noted this in my review of Red Hat Linux 8 (at OfB.biz) and > marked down the visual apperance somewhat because of that problem. In > a way unified widgets giving the appearance of all the applications being > the same, will probably confuse users MORE when the color palates won't > change all of the applications. It'll probably result in support headaches, > I'd suspect. > > Anyway, libqtpixmap is available for both GTK1 and GTK2. I can't say how > much I think this would be a great thing, and everyone who has ever > wanted to be able to easily adjust GTK color schemes (probably most > Windows migrants) will thank-you for making the change. > > -Tim - -- - Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Enterprise Open Source Journal: http://www.ofb.biz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+VTMHK37Cns9gJ0gRAu9sAJ0bzBKMtrNdXFbJZdKgCFZ6S5cCtQCeJJRL JY3ZIg0OJf7fV26NlGMAgAU= =1Omb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[Cooker] Re: [Bug 1967] [galaxy-gnome] No way to get the Color Scheme to MatchKDE's.
This bug is not invalid! It should be resolved as either LATER or WONTFIX (hopefully LATER). I understand there probably isn't time to fix it in time for 9.1. fcrozat wrote: --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2003-02-20 20:26 --- Please, do NOT reopen bug closed as INVALID.. I already explained why it is INVALID.. Bugzilla is not a place to discuss, cooker is the right place.. --- You are receiving this mail because: --- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is. --- Reminder: --- assigned_to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] status: RESOLVED creation_date: description: Hi, I noticed that Mandrake Galaxy gtk, while much nicer looking atm than Mandrake Galaxy KDE, does not seem to be able to change colors, at least that I've noticed. The issue being that if I'm using KDE, like many of your users are, I may choose to change the color scheme, which inturn causes GTK stuff to stick out really badly. There is a very easy way to solve this, which is why I am reporting this. libqtpixmap, a derivative of the libpixmap engine employed by most GTK themes, does color matching with KDE's color settings. Now, I'm not sure how Galaxy's theme engine works, but I'm assuming importing the code for this other engine (which is the one used for Geramik, by the way) would be relatively easy. If, on top of that, you made a little tool to adjust the color settings from Gnome, Mandrake would be the FIRST distribution (afaik) to offer both KDE and Gnome users and easy way to keep all major applications using the same color scheme! This would dramatically improve Galaxy and fix a major usability "bug" between KDE and Gnome that has never been solved before right out of the box. Using a static color palate in GTK apps is alright, but the whole unified look is only good so long as no one changes the KDE color scheme. I noted this in my review of Red Hat Linux 8 (at OfB.biz) and marked down the visual apperance somewhat because of that problem. In a way unified widgets giving the appearance of all the applications being the same, will probably confuse users MORE when the color palates won't change all of the applications. It'll probably result in support headaches, I'd suspect. Anyway, libqtpixmap is available for both GTK1 and GTK2. I can't say how much I think this would be a great thing, and everyone who has ever wanted to be able to easily adjust GTK color schemes (probably most Windows migrants) will thank-you for making the change. -Tim
