Re: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
That's just it though. you can't "dumb down" the OS. but you sure as hell can make is accessible for those of us that just want to run some programs, do sys admin, etc. WITHOUT having to run / compile / create / hack any kind of code whatsoever... (well... not all at least.) - Original Message - From: "Thomas M. Beaudry" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 16, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: RE: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the "audio" group? Interesting argument about whether Linux will be able to attract Joe Bloe without going brain dead. Anybody remember ten years back when the big argument for M$ over Apple was that although it was more complicated to configure, you were better off 'cause it gave you more control in the end? If you want brain dead configuration, go Apple. If you want buggy configuration, go M$. If you want something that you can make work despite whatever is thrown at you, go Linux. The reality is that we have three different OS's for three different audiences. If Linux dumbs down, it's not going to blow M$ nor Apple out of the water. It's just going to lose the audience it has now as they migrate to OpenBSD to avoid another M$ or Apple...
RE: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
Which comes back to my original posts, yes this should have been handled by install. But since it wasn't (and your original post only asked how to do it without hacking a /etc file), I suggested using "usermod" to add the user to the "audio" group. So we're still putting up with your whining. Your question was answered but you're mad 'cause I couldn't understand what you really meant by reading your mind... -Original Message- This is going way off the original point I was trying to make: The user configured during installation is not in the "audio" group which is necessary if they are going to be able to hear sound on the gnome desktop.
RE: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
Interesting argument about whether Linux will be able to attract Joe Bloe without going brain dead. Anybody remember ten years back when the big argument for M$ over Apple was that although it was more complicated to configure, you were better off 'cause it gave you more control in the end? If you want brain dead configuration, go Apple. If you want buggy configuration, go M$. If you want something that you can make work despite whatever is thrown at you, go Linux. The reality is that we have three different OS's for three different audiences. If Linux dumbs down, it's not going to blow M$ nor Apple out of the water. It's just going to lose the audience it has now as they migrate to OpenBSD to avoid another M$ or Apple...
Re: [Cooker] RE: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
"Brian J. Murrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: from the quill of "Thomas M. Beaudry" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on scroll 000701bf59ec$6b312500$8a8280d8@mosehern Log in as root and add users to group "audio". This is a standard operation that you should be familiar with from your signature... Grr!! I cannot believe you answered that question with that answer!! Was I not clear that I was asking "how is it supposed to happen"? Was I not clear that I understand how to add users to groups? Is Joe User that picks up his Mandrake 7.0 at favorite computer store supposed to know to do that? How? Is asking him to log in as root and edit the groups file really the level of user-friendliness that we are trying to achieve here? This is done automatically by msec in security level 0 to 2... -- -- Yoann, http://www.security-addict.org It is well known that M$ products don't call free() after a malloc(). The Unix community wish them good luck for their future developments.
Re: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
"Brian J. Murrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yay, troll! See, the problem is that Joe Average User is what is going to keep those companies in business. Without Joe Average User none of those companies will be able to sustain their expenses. Yeah, but the Joe Average User will have to learn, anyway. Lets not do the error of thinking that Joe is stupid, please, he can learn like everybody. I've written the manual in that respect. Yeah, the additional effort put into the mandrake desktop is quite nice, too, but I for one hope Mandrake is not heading toward being the idiot's linux. Why not? BECAUSE USERS ARE NOT IDIOTS! They are idiot if you keep them that way. Up to us to "educate" them. And Joe is like everybody, he doesn't want to lose time, he wants to do things the fastest possible. Without the command line, how do you say to your machine to convert 150 images from GIF to JPEG in less than one minute? Users are not idiots, this is a fact. Many are just new to the OS (I consider myself new, even after running Linux off/on for over a year) and just want the operability of a simple interface, easy install procedures, and programs that work when you install them. Some will learn, and become experts, others will not, being content to run WP or Star Office or netscape or (gasp!) GAMES. Basically, Linux is like a DOS with a GUI. Tons more commands, and people HATED DOS. hehehe Look at the marketing hype on mandrake "Linux for the desktop" This is where eveyrone wants to be. hey, it's not like they are ever going to take away your terminal screen.. are they? Lou Guerriero [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fg # rm *;o o: command not found
Re: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
"Brian J. Murrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yay, troll! See, the problem is that Joe Average User is what is going to keep those companies in business. Without Joe Average User none of those companies will be able to sustain their expenses. Yeah, but the Joe Average User will have to learn, anyway. Lets not do the error of thinking that Joe is stupid, please, he can learn like everybody. I've written the manual in that respect. Yeah, the additional effort put into the mandrake desktop is quite nice, too, but I for one hope Mandrake is not heading toward being the idiot's linux. Why not? BECAUSE USERS ARE NOT IDIOTS! They are idiot if you keep them that way. Up to us to "educate" them. And Joe is like everybody, he doesn't want to lose time, he wants to do things the fastest possible. Without the command line, how do you say to your machine to convert 150 images from GIF to JPEG in less than one minute? -- fg # rm *;o o: command not found
RE: [Cooker] RE: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
Now that you're through whining... Check out the man page for usermod on how to add secondary group privileges to users. This was the standard procedure I was referring to, not editing any /etc file. It's covered in any basic text on configuring UNIX systems. You must have one laying around someplace where you work. That's as easy as it's going to get for "Joe User" without giving up the security features of Linux. Probably should have been handled during install but that wasn't your question. -Original Message- From: Brian J. Murrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 10:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Cooker] RE: how are users supposed to get added to the "audio" group? from the quill of "Thomas M. Beaudry" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on scroll 000701bf59ec$6b312500$8a8280d8@mosehern Log in as root and add users to group "audio". This is a standard operation that you should be familiar with from your signature... Grr!! I cannot believe you answered that question with that answer!! Was I not clear that I was asking "how is it supposed to happen"? Was I not clear that I understand how to add users to groups? Is Joe User that picks up his Mandrake 7.0 at favorite computer store supposed to know to do that? How? Is asking him to log in as root and edit the groups file really the level of user-friendliness that we are trying to achieve here? Sheesh!! b. -- Brian J. Murrell InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
Re: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
from the quill of David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] on scroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] But, for myself, I say screw "Joe Average User". Then you say screw Mandrake, and screw RedHat and screw Corel and screw Caldera. See, the problem is that Joe Average User is what is going to keep those companies in business. Without Joe Average User none of those companies will be able to sustain their expenses. And even if those companies could sustain their expenses with sales to us hackers and ISPs for Internet servers, without Joe Average User you can also say goodbye to any possibility of decent commercial applications. That is something I want. Sure freeware is great, but there are holes that commercial vendors are more than willing to fill if there is a reasonable revenue stream from it. That takes Joe Average User. I don't use Mandrake because it's the "easiest". Nor do I. I use it because it tends to be the most cutting-edge distribution and more or less compatible with Redhat. Ditto. Yeah, the additional effort put into the mandrake desktop is quite nice, too, but I for one hope Mandrake is not heading toward being the idiot's linux. Why not? You obviously think you will lose something if an idiot can use the same Linux you are using. We already have Corel and Caldera vying for that title. And if they make it and Mandrake doesn't, you will be using Corel and/or Caldera in the end. Give me control, give me nice conf tools and up to date packages. You can't have them, or Mandrake Linux without Joe Average User. Sorry that's how it works. Unless you can find somebody who wants to keep pouring money into a hole. Send me his address when you find him please. But also recognize that making an O/S that Joe Average User can and will use does not preclude you being able to use it exactly the way you want to. The Joe Average User part is mostly about having enough of the right tools so that he does not have to see a tty, if he does not want to. That doesn't mean you will be denied the tty if you want it though. Then let me hack it. My 2 cents. But that will not pay Mandrake's bills. b. -- Brian J. Murrell InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
Re: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
[ lots of philisophical tangents snipped ] -- Brian J. Murrell InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD Bravo Again Brian, I see both sides are out, and may this thread come to a rest, ( for everyone elses sake :) ) I do like the snip though, I think most on the list ( me included ) would say it was rather , lots of HorseS*** snipped... :) Have a nice day All David PS: Can someone please get that audio thingy fixed?
[Cooker] RE: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
from the quill of "Thomas M. Beaudry" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on scroll 000701bf59ec$6b312500$8a8280d8@mosehern Log in as root and add users to group "audio". This is a standard operation that you should be familiar with from your signature... Grr!! I cannot believe you answered that question with that answer!! Was I not clear that I was asking "how is it supposed to happen"? Was I not clear that I understand how to add users to groups? Is Joe User that picks up his Mandrake 7.0 at favorite computer store supposed to know to do that? How? Is asking him to log in as root and edit the groups file really the level of user-friendliness that we are trying to achieve here? Sheesh!! b. -- Brian J. Murrell InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
Re: [Cooker] RE: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Brian J. Murrell wrote: from the quill of "Thomas M. Beaudry" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on scroll 000701bf59ec$6b312500$8a8280d8@mosehern Log in as root and add users to group "audio". This is a standard operation So that's the way to go... Then I have messed up the rights on my /dev/audio* /dev/dsp* /dev/mixer* Can someone send me a ls -l of those so I can se what owner and grop those should have and how I shall chmod those. /M
Re: [Cooker] RE: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
How? Is asking him to log in as root and edit the groups file really the level of user-friendliness that we are trying to achieve here? and Why Not Brian? what is so terribly wrong with someone actually learning how to use an Operating system properly in the first place, to me, that is one of the great Joys i have useing Linux, is to have control of my computer, and when something DOES mess up, also have the control to go in and fix it myself. Or, should everything just be packaged nice and neat ala MS, install it, hope it works, and when that sound card does not get recognized by MS, pay $100 to some tech support line, and THEN maybe it will work afterwards? Just some thoughts Brian, not a flame, When you buy a new car, you always have to read the manual to see how everything functions in it. David
[Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
from the quill of David [EMAIL PROTECTED] on scroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] How? Is asking him to log in as root and edit the groups file really the level of user-friendliness that we are trying to achieve here? and Why Not Brian? Your question doesn't really answer my quesion, so let me make my question more clear: are we trying to capture a percentage of the Windows user base or not? If no, we can drop this thread now. If yes, then what percentage? Small, medium, large, or as many as we can? Any answer but small should preclude asking the user to log into a tty/start an xterm as root and running cryptic commands like that offered. How many are going to get the quotes wrong? 50% at least I say. what is so terribly wrong with someone actually learning how to use an Operating system properly in the first place, Nothing if they want to learn. Most don't. Most want to turn on the computer get their business done and be done with it. We (hackers) are not the majority of users. We (hackers) are not the critical mass that Linux (companies) is(are) striving to reach. to me, that is one of the great Joys i have useing Linux, is to have control of my computer, and when something DOES mess up, also have the control to go in and fix it myself. I agree with you 100%. That is a great joy for me. It is not for Joe Average User though. Or, should everything just be packaged nice and neat ala MS, install it, hope it works, and when that sound card does not get recognized by MS, pay $100 to some tech support line, and THEN maybe it will work afterwards? We are hopefully after something better than MS, but from a user point of view, yes they want to open the box install it and have it go. If it does not, it will not be seen as an attractive alternative to the "break-and-go-and-break-and-go..." OS that they already have. Just some thoughts Brian, not a flame, I didn't take it as a flame. Just try to keep in mind that Mandrake is a company with a payroll and expenses and all that, just like MS, and they do need to (continue) to make a profit to succeed. To make that profit all while selling a relatively inexpensive OS, they need to have a critical mass. Hackers are not that critical mass, Joe Average User is. When you buy a new car, you always have to read the manual to see how everything functions in it. Indeed, but you are not asked to lift the hood and put spark plugs in to get it off the lot. The car manual would be (roughly) the equivillent of (say) the Gnome user's manual. b. -- Brian J. Murrell InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD
Re: [Cooker] Re: how are users supposed to get added to the audio group?
First Off, Bravo Brian, Glad too see some people who do not take such things personally.. On Sat, 08 Jan 2000, you wrote: Your question doesn't really answer my quesion, so let me make my question more clear: are we trying to capture a percentage of the Windows user base or not? If no, we can drop this thread now. If yes, then what percentage? Small, medium, large, or as many as we can? Me, i dont think it should be a case of "just" trying to pull people away from MS in itself, with a "junk" distro, just too get them to buy it, because it may or may not work on a large percentage of older comps, as per Corel, but they dont have to get there hands wet... but rather, i believe, it should be build right from the beginning, which it will setup nicely at the start, with some config in the install, for what ever u would like installed ( my one and only ache with Mandrake now, is it's default base instal , reguardless of what u select ) and if need to get your hands a wee bit wet to configure some hardware, then so be it. One big difference between MS and Linux, is the fact, that , if you do need some help, there will always be an answer on a mailing list, and i think that point goes alot further with people switching to Linux, than the fact, that they may need to get in and type some abscure letters in a term. I think this point alone, when people realize it, after seeing how nicely it does setup now, is more than enough to switch people... Case in point my roommate, hell, she does not even know windows that well, let alone shutting it down, but she is all hyped about learning how to function in Mnadrake here now, even though i have her do the typing for config files...she just likes the idea of not having to worry about a blue screen coming up when she wants to save her work. :) especially knowing if she does " delete" something by mistake, she will not have to reinstall Linux again, or even call a support line for help Nothing if they want to learn. Most don't. Most want to turn on the computer get their business done and be done with it. We (hackers) are not the majority of users. We (hackers) are not the critical mass that Linux (companies) is(are) striving to reach. I think, as stated above, most will not mind learning something new, to config there system right, especially, when knowing someone on some mailing list will hold their hand , in some of the more abscure editing requirements. and sorry, me myself, i'm not a "hacker" per se, i just Love having the control of the comp. :) I still kick myself for not continuing with programming way back in high school ( 17 yrs ago ), but hey, the Joy that Linux has giving me, while i get back into comps, is quickly overiding that ( just a wanabe here :) ) I agree with you 100%. That is a great joy for me. It is not for Joe Average User though. This as you know, i disagree with, if it works more efficiently than MS, i believe they will switch over, especially with more Linux showing up on desktops at work We are hopefully after something better than MS, but from a user point of view, yes they want to open the box install it and have it go. If it does not, it will not be seen as an attractive alternative to the "break-and-go-and-break-and-go..." OS that they already have. Yes, this is very true, but i think, as long as there are as many different standards on hardware now a days, not very likely in the near future, unless we get too a point of 1 standard, and we know 1 standard does not make to many people much money.So far, i believe the Mandrake team, and other Linux' , have done a super job of getting it operating on such a variety of hardware to date, with the biggest stumbling block being the install, but as we have seen with iso3, it is, to me at least, the biggest turn around for home comp users to date, and thats only going to get better... Just some thoughts Brian, not a flame, I didn't take it as a flame. Just try to keep in mind that Mandrake is a company with a payroll and expenses and all that, just like MS, and they do need to (continue) to make a profit to succeed. To make that profit all while selling a relatively inexpensive OS, they need to have a critical mass. Hackers are not that critical mass, Joe Average User is. When you buy a new car, you always have to read the manual to see how everything functions in it. Indeed, but you are not asked to lift the hood and put spark plugs in to get it off the lot. The car manual would be (roughly) the equivillent of (say) the Gnome user's manual. Yes, true, but i dont think alot of people would mind changing them, especially if someone will hold their hand for free to show them how :) Ok, so i'm long winded again, and i appologize once again. i just believe it's better to hold someone's hand and show them, rather than treating them like they are clueless to start with. ( i think this beautiful
