Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
On Sunday 29 December 2002 06:07, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Friday 27 December 2002 02:43 pm, SI Reasoning wrote: > > The best thing about having the iso out before > > the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting > > problems back to get fixed. > > No. The ISO is in theory the same as what gets shipped, and in practice may > actually be slightly more updated. Pressing, packaging and shipping take > time. If you could collapse the lead time on pressing and packaging to a > few days (e.g. by packaging some of the first pressing batch before > pressing completes, a JustInTime mode like Nippon uses for producing their > cars, and/or distributing the pressing and packaging operations so they > occur near the few biggest markets), you could orchestrate a simultaneous > release by airfreighting the first packages direct from packaging facility > to stores and charging a small premium for them. > > Cheers; Leon I could remember from 8.2 if i'm not mistaken that the pressing didn't start for a week after going gold
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
On Sunday 29 December 2002 04:07 pm, SI Reasoning wrote: > the info on the iso's don't change, but their are plenty of fixes that > happen after release but before the packaged set is released. These are > then downloaded and installed as one of the last sections of the install > and it brings the installation up to date. True, but not many, I suspect the maintainers in general are having a bit of an emotional breather after the rapids-shooting experience ramping up to release. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
On Sat, 2002-12-28 at 23:07, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Friday 27 December 2002 02:43 pm, SI Reasoning wrote: > > The best thing about having the iso out before > > the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting > > problems back to get fixed. > > No. The ISO is in theory the same as what gets shipped, and in practice may > actually be slightly more updated. Pressing, packaging and shipping take > time. If you could collapse the lead time on pressing and packaging to a few > days (e.g. by packaging some of the first pressing batch before pressing > completes, a JustInTime mode like Nippon uses for producing their cars, > and/or distributing the pressing and packaging operations so they occur near > the few biggest markets), you could orchestrate a simultaneous release by > airfreighting the first packages direct from packaging facility to stores and > charging a small premium for them. > > Cheers; Leon the info on the iso's don't change, but their are plenty of fixes that happen after release but before the packaged set is released. These are then downloaded and installed as one of the last sections of the install and it brings the installation up to date. -- SI Reasoning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
On Friday 27 December 2002 02:43 pm, SI Reasoning wrote: > The best thing about having the iso out before > the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting > problems back to get fixed. No. The ISO is in theory the same as what gets shipped, and in practice may actually be slightly more updated. Pressing, packaging and shipping take time. If you could collapse the lead time on pressing and packaging to a few days (e.g. by packaging some of the first pressing batch before pressing completes, a JustInTime mode like Nippon uses for producing their cars, and/or distributing the pressing and packaging operations so they occur near the few biggest markets), you could orchestrate a simultaneous release by airfreighting the first packages direct from packaging facility to stores and charging a small premium for them. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
On Saturday December 28 2002 02:40 pm, Chmouel Boudjnah wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jason) writes: > > the one who downloads the ISO's for me). I am not because the > > lowest tier still costs $60 USD/Yr. I am in New Zealand and that > > is over $120 NZD/yr. A lot by some peoples standards. I would > > like to suggest > > Yes but you got there the cheapest beers from all others western > countries :-) O'm'gawd, Miller lite? ($10.90 USD for 30-12 oz cans, 30x355ml for those that don't drink by the oz.). I drink it, as long as it's cold, it's damn near flavored water with a touch of buzz ;) I've been a cooker user for some time now (7.x, IIRC). There's never been a time other cook'rs weren't willin to furnish CD's when I couldn't keep up with 56k dialup. I in turn, send Cd's out. Many went to Kiwi land. So I ain't buyin the addin in of d/l costs. I have DSL now, unlimited, as was 56k. The issue with MB's d/l'd is with, an should be with the provider. Not a cost factored into Linux support. FWIW, let me say charitable works you (or anybody) mentions ... you lose credit for ... at least in God's scheme of things (IMO). Mandrake is _not_ a charity. We all, even other distros, the world in general, benefit from it's existence. I don't think this is promoted enough. When I was tryin Mdk 6.x, I got a snail mail address off their web page, and sent $50, and again $70 some months later. Later, they began (after some urging) a contributions link, and I used that. Then the Club started and I was grandfather'd in for past contributions. Still I joined as a silver member (two concurrent memberships). With this latest cirmcumstance, I renewed early. Not out of charity. I'm disabled (multiple scerlosis) and on Social Security plus some other insurance, BUT, out of belief in Linux and this distros future. I've heard/read a lot of comment about the OSS community. This OS we all love is FREE as in speech, it's not free as in BEER. So y'all need to unass your wallets, or start takin developers in as step children. Your choice ;) -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 28 December 2002 05:58, Bruno Prior wrote: > Ralph De Witt wrote: > >>How on earth can a support incident only cost $10? That doesn't even pay > >>for an employee to read the incident report. > > > > Because Mandrake employee's do not due tech support, Mandrakes Expert > > problem solvers are all users. [Snip] > > The few times I used Mandrake Expert when I bought boxed sets, I found > > the actual support to be next to worthless (my opinion) > > Exactly. You get what you pay for. > > Support needs to be a significant revenue stream for any Free Software > business. Mandrake's support model is seriously flawed, and consequently > they are struggling with their revenue streams. > > They need to provide some means to escalate support issues from > MandrakeExpert to Mandrakesoft employees, and charge significantly more > for such support. In return, such escalated incidents need to guarantee > decent response times. > > Cheers, > > Bruno Prior Agreeded. The current support system just left a bad taste in my mouth. - -- Yours, Ralph. It said Use Windows XP or better, so I installed SuSE-Linux 8.1 Register Linux User 168814 ICQ #49993234 AIM ralphdewitt jabber.org ralphdewitt GPG Public Key available at http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 6426 1CFF 0987 9D51 76D6 06BC F22A CFF4 559A 03E7 Kernel version 2.4.19-4GB Current Linux uptime: 1 days 11 hours 28 minutes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+Dhr1mmsm1DCXO8QRAm3mAKCbW1z2wgxc7f/NcNCX4wxKk+KKjwCgpIrK O4a2H0fznhWIz74xHY8ksjI= =gJWr -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
Yes but we can't afford to buy beer when we go overseas since our currency is so crap!! =) Incidently, I am also a U.S. citizen (been here 7 years) but this is getting way OT so I'll leave it at that... Hasta~~ Jason Chmouel Boudjnah wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jason) writes: the one who downloads the ISO's for me). I am not because the lowest tier still costs $60 USD/Yr. I am in New Zealand and that is over $120 NZD/yr. A lot by some peoples standards. I would like to suggest Yes but you got there the cheapest beers from all others western countries :-)
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jason) writes: > the one who downloads the ISO's for me). I am not because the lowest > tier still costs $60 USD/Yr. I am in New Zealand and that is over $120 > NZD/yr. A lot by some peoples standards. I would like to suggest Yes but you got there the cheapest beers from all others western countries :-) -- Chmouel -- http://www.chmouel.com/
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
The membership cost is the same wherever, so if your total cost is higher, it is because your download cost is higher. And there is nothing Mandrake can do about your download cost - they could give free membership and it would still cost you more to download the ISOs than it would to buy a box set. See my email to Ron for the maths. If the membership cost is a small component of the overall cost, you are not going to entice large numbers of new members by reducing the cost of membership. As a suggestion for how to get round your predicament, why don't you take out silver club membership, and then buy copies of the ISOs burnt to CD from a business like Cheeplinux. The cost of club membership, CDs and P&P will be much less than even free club membership + your download cost. That way everyone is happy. Mandrake get the revenue they need, and you get the software packages you need, and the satisfaction of knowing you are not letting your Kiwi/Aussie phone companies rip you off. Cheers, Bruno Prior Jason wrote: And in NZD (New Zealand Dollars) it is even higher, so yes, that IS a lot of money to many and yes I think there are MANY (millions even) users who would shell out for a lower tier in the club that would allow for free ISO downloads during the first month of release. I started this thread and I think some need to re-read my original post because they just seem to be misinterpreting it...and some of the posts that have followed. Regards, Jason Greenwood
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
My figure is not erroneous - it is the cost of membership. However, I accept that your total cost is more than just the cost of membership. But let's just test the theory that a lower membership rate will offer significant savings that will entice more members, taking your figures as a basis. Let's say they introduce a new membership level that costs $US20. Your download cost remains the same at $US504. So your total cost for this level of membership is $US524, which at 0.56 is $AUD936 p.a. Are you really trying to tell me there are 10,000s of people out there who can't afford to pay $AUD1,114 p.a. but can afford to pay $AUD936 p.a.? Cheers, Bruno Prior Ron Stodden wrote: Bruno, your figure is quite erroneous. While desirable, membership for many is just not feasible. As explained in my previous message, which you appear to have missed, the real cost of a silver club membership and its required download capacity for me here in eastern Australia would be $US504 + $US120 = $USD624.00, which at 0.56 is $AUD1114.00 p/a. Repeat:$AUD1114.00
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
Ralph De Witt wrote: How on earth can a support incident only cost $10? That doesn't even pay for an employee to read the incident report. Because Mandrake employee's do not due tech support, Mandrakes Expert problem solvers are all users. [Snip] The few times I used Mandrake Expert when I bought boxed sets, I found the actual support to be next to worthless (my opinion) Exactly. You get what you pay for. Support needs to be a significant revenue stream for any Free Software business. Mandrake's support model is seriously flawed, and consequently they are struggling with their revenue streams. They need to provide some means to escalate support issues from MandrakeExpert to Mandrakesoft employees, and charge significantly more for such support. In return, such escalated incidents need to guarantee decent response times. Cheers, Bruno Prior
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
Jason wrote: And in NZD (New Zealand Dollars) it is even higher, so yes, that IS a lot of money to many and yes I think there are MANY (millions even) users who would shell out for a lower tier in the club that would allow for free ISO downloads during the first month of release. I started this thread and I think some need to re-read my original post because they just seem to be misinterpreting it...and some of the posts that have followed. What seems to be needed is an extension of the GPL free software idea to the internet itself so that internet software distribution costs would be nil (someone else pays for the capital and to support the people involved in doing it, as in GPL software development - the various governments would be good candidates, since the internet is surely by now a basic public service - communication, education - for which it would be immoral to demand payment or from which to expect a profit at the expense of, or denial of service to, your fellow citizens who cannot afford it. Govrnments would reap a manyfold in value return from internet investment, and the present ugly discrimination by country would disappear). Again, capitalism is the problem. -- Ron. [Melbourne, Australia] troels... now updated to use ftp.sunet.se server. See: http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronst/
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
And in NZD (New Zealand Dollars) it is even higher, so yes, that IS a lot of money to many and yes I think there are MANY (millions even) users who would shell out for a lower tier in the club that would allow for free ISO downloads during the first month of release. I started this thread and I think some need to re-read my original post because they just seem to be misinterpreting it...and some of the posts that have followed. Regards, Jason Greenwood Ron Stodden wrote: Bruno Prior wrote: Can most people really not afford $120 p.a. for Silver Club membership (even discounting the benefits one receives for membership)? Bruno, your figure is quite erroneous. While desirable, membership for many is just not feasible. As explained in my previous message, which you appear to have missed, the real cost of a silver club membership and its required download capacity for me here in eastern Australia would be $US504 + $US120 = $USD624.00, which at 0.56 is $AUD1114.00 p/a. Repeat:$AUD1114.00
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
Bruno Prior wrote: Can most people really not afford $120 p.a. for Silver Club membership (even discounting the benefits one receives for membership)? Bruno, your figure is quite erroneous. While desirable, membership for many is just not feasible. As explained in my previous message, which you appear to have missed, the real cost of a silver club membership and its required download capacity for me here in eastern Australia would be $US504 + $US120 = $USD624.00, which at 0.56 is $AUD1114.00 p/a. Repeat:$AUD1114.00 -- Ron. [Melbourne, Australia] troels... now updated to use ftp.sunet.se server. See: http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronst/
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 27 December 2002 18:25, Bruno Prior wrote: > How on earth can a support incident only cost $10? That doesn't even pay > for an employee to read the incident report. Because Mandrake employee's do not due tech support, Mandrakes Expert problem solvers are all users. The money is split between the user expert and Mandrake. They have to sign up to answer the questions that come with the boxed sets for nothing. Telephone support was done by a outside contractor. That's how they do it. The few times I used Mandrake Expert when I bought boxed sets, I found the actual support to be next to worthless (my opinion) others may have had better experencies. - -- Yours, Ralph. It said Use Windows XP or better, so I installed SuSE-Linux 8.1 Register Linux User 168814 ICQ #49993234 AIM ralphdewitt jabber.org ralphdewitt GPG Public Key available at http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 6426 1CFF 0987 9D51 76D6 06BC F22A CFF4 559A 03E7 Kernel version 2.4.19-4GB Current Linux uptime: 1 days 1 hours 28 minutes. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+DY/ommsm1DCXO8QRAvPXAJ98QIzJr9pyRVrGwPuMZwBI421xcQCfXZm4 Y7x5w9H3og1lff5zjW3EBig= =TsmN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
I suspect Mandrakesoft's response to this thread would be that it is not the job of members of the Cooker list, MandrakeClub or any other usergroup to tell them how to run their company. They have made dramatic organisational changes recently, which they expect will enable them to remain solvent. But they should nevertheless be worried that there is a common perception that they are struggling. It is hardly surprising that long-term users of the distro are interested in its future. Nor is it surprising that there is such concern, given the tone of the ongoing invitations to participate in their Increase of Capital. At the very least, they could do with some PR adviser to suggest better ways of phrasing these emails. I am afraid, creative as some of the suggestions to improve their finances are, most of them are just tinkering at the edges. Have a look at http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/future.php3 for a summary of their current financial position. They need 20,000 users to become MandrakeClub members to get over the current cash squeeze. If you introduce cheaper, lower-privileged membership, you are going to need incrementally more members at this level. Are there really 100,000s of users just waiting for cheaper membership of MandrakeClub in order to contribute? Is cost really the main obstacle? Millions of people and businesses spend hundreds or thousands of pounds each year on Windows software. Why are Mandrake users so different? Can most people really not afford $120 p.a. for Silver Club membership (even discounting the benefits one receives for membership)? Or is it that they simply choose not to, because they can get it for free, as long as they take no personal responsibility for the future of the distro? The salesman's solution is always to chase market share by lowering prices. He is not worried about profits - only sales. But any sensible businessman will take the opposite view - that profits matter, not market share. It is my belief that Mandrake need to do the opposite of introducing lower-priced options - i.e. increase prices. Perhaps not significantly for box-sets - they need to remain competitive with RedHat and SuSE. And I am not convinced that charging for ISOs would be a good idea - people will simply download RedHat instead and Mandrake will lose a significant part of their user community. No, where they need to raise their prices significantly is in support. How on earth can a support incident only cost $10? That doesn't even pay for an employee to read the incident report. I would have thought there should be a less static charging structure for support, so that "Lart" questions that can be answered quickly can be charged moderately ($20?), while problems that take longer to solve are charged more heavily in proportion to the time required, with a backstop position that problems demonstrated to be bugs are not charged. I suspect this would have a beneficial effect both on revenues and on quality, as it would provide the incentive (that is currently missing) to ensure that releases had as few bugs as possible. Beyond that, Mandrake need to attack the business market far more. There is a simple reason why RedHat and SuSE are so focussed on this market, and that is revenue. Users will think twice about paying for support, businesses will be much more likely to pay for quick solutions and peace of mind. Hopefully, that is the idea behind their thick-client terminal server project. Combine that with something like Win4Lin Terminal Server to provide centralised management and reduced hardware requirements and running costs, while continuing to support legacy Windows systems for those that need. As long as they can charge a decent price to provide credible support for such systems, this could be Mandrake's "killer app". I just hope they figure out a way to bring in enough cash in the short term to allow them to progress such a business model. Cheers, Bruno Prior SI Reasoning wrote: On Fri, 2002-12-27 at 06:03, Jason Straight wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 27 December 2002 01:43 am, SI Reasoning wrote: This would be a mistake. The best thing about having the iso out before the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting problems back to get fixed. By the time the boxed set is available, many bugs have been squished and the paying user gets a very fine distro. It is really as if the final is really a final release candidate and one gets a whole lot more eyes to help clean everything up before the boxed set is available. I think that is a huge benefit. That's funny - I decided against buying Mandrake CD's when I saw that what was offered on the shelf at Wal-Mart was a release candidate snapshot from cooker. Why pay $50 for what was older than what I could download? I'd rather just give the $ straight to mdk to have access to the iso's. I really don't think the box set
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
On Fri, 2002-12-27 at 06:03, Jason Straight wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Friday 27 December 2002 01:43 am, SI Reasoning wrote: > > This would be a mistake. The best thing about having the iso out before > > the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting > > problems back to get fixed. By the time the boxed set is available, many > > bugs have been squished and the paying user gets a very fine distro. It > > is really as if the final is really a final release candidate and one > > gets a whole lot more eyes to help clean everything up before the boxed > > set is available. I think that is a huge benefit. > > That's funny - I decided against buying Mandrake CD's when I saw that what was > offered on the shelf at Wal-Mart was a release candidate snapshot from > cooker. Why pay $50 for what was older than what I could download? I'd rather > just give the $ straight to mdk to have access to the iso's. > > I really don't think the box set gains anything by having the iso's out early. > The boxed sets aren't necessarily for techies such as ourselves. They are gobbled up by end users who do want a smooth package when they install. Having a month or so to iron our the remaining issues helps tremendously in having a much more stable product to the end user. Mandrake's ability to search and install updates during the install procedure helps to make this possible. > > I believe Mandrake's best shot is capturing market share by getting as > > many people to use their software as possible. Here is a simple plan: > > > > Create a demo cd ala Knoppix and try and bundle with everything you can > > (new computer, etc). > > I don't agree with neutreware. If you offer a free software that is inferior > in any way to the original then how are you advertising for the product? What > you are doing is tainting the market by providing a falsely negative image of > your product. > > I don't think this is neutraware. For techies the isos are still available, but for newbies, a slimmed down version that just works when booted would encourage exploration without risk. The reason it is slimmed down is that it will need to run off a single cd. I though it would be cool to allow for an install from the demo cd but that may not even be necessary, it would be fine for a dsl/cable user doing a network install but modem users would most likely want to buy a boxed set and the demo is really something that would cater to the end user. There is an initial fear of trying something new but people don't seem to fear risk free demo's, especially if something "free" that they want (such as free online minutes" are available. I believe that this is the best way to get Mandrake in end user's hands and these are the people most likely to pay money for the services. I don't think it would be good practice to try and extract too much from the tech community that puts in quite a few hours trying to make Mandrake better and act as an unpaid support service in many cases. These are the people that make distros like Mandrake so strong that they can compete with the much better funded organizations such as Redhat (and Microsoft). > - -- > Jason Straight > ICQ: 1796276 > PGP: http://www.jeetkunedomaster.net/~jason/pubkey.asc > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iQCVAwUBPgxBmRFHZPcobeHxAQIjQAP/Q77MU8D4l6XrRkx0//KvBNi5IILk1anz > VSDOTpW4+Rp+WqsRIOiYt+Lh7/uRvawAyW2xlQTeeJw4ASOwJLa/D6V0o5IXNaoi > I2LcOGWLHoiy/4VVjih+gf73v2JaY3bhac/F2mn8xlXxvtlmvagtw67YIz+mireI > HvDZK7MMzY4= > =AQ4O > -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- SI Reasoning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
I was not referring to Cooker ISOs (and that includes betas and RCs), nor was I referring to past releases. In fact I think Mandrake could probably make money by selling old releases at a premium, yet reasonable price. In any case, if a significant number of users don't contribute, Mandrake will undergo a management change whether they (or anyone else) like it or not and policies WILL change. So it won't be too long before the problem will be resolved one way or another. In fact the current plea for funds (without an accompanying change of course) is alienating a large number of users who are questioning whether they should continue to sink money into an ailing company. SI Reasoning wrote: This would be a mistake. The best thing about having the iso out before the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting problems back to get fixed. By the time the boxed set is available, many bugs have been squished and the paying user gets a very fine distro. It is really as if the final is really a final release candidate and one gets a whole lot more eyes to help clean everything up before the boxed set is available. I think that is a huge benefit. I believe Mandrake's best shot is capturing market share by getting as many people to use their software as possible. Here is a simple plan: Create a demo cd ala Knoppix and try and bundle with everything you can (new computer, etc). The demo cd has the ability to install a basic version of mandrake on the computer while the demo is running ( so one is actually using the computer while the installation is taking place... maybe a great time to have an easy walk through on how to run Mandrake for newbies. The demo cd offers a discount to buy one of the complete mandrake boxed sets. Many people, being impressed on how the demo cd booted and ran on their computer, may then either install the basic version or go ahead and buy the boxed set for themselves. They may also go and give away the demo cd to someone else or use it (with a usb pen drive) to be able to take over any pc with 128+ meg ram and make it theirs. Either way, it continue to give Mandrake free exposure which will translate into increased sales. I still believe that iso's for everything should remain free and downloadable at the time they are complete. Make connections with businesses for bundling the demo cd (such as earthlink which will have connection info burned into the cd with free minutes ala AOL, just pop in, boot and use.) I can also see every mom&pop computer store bundling the mandrake demo on low cost company built machines. It will allow them to say that they have a computer that is up and ready to go... maybe even make arrangements with local isp's with specials such as the one mentioned below. These are a couple of ideas but the main emphasis is that Mandrake will be offering their software as a means to give value to other products, which should increase awareness, circulation and profits for Mandrake also. On Thu, 2002-12-26 at 20:51, Jason wrote: And so can the general public after "the cooling off period" of say 1 month. Is that so long to wait for a FREE ISO?? I think not. Alternatively, users can pay the fee for the newly created cheaper tier for the club and get the ISO's when released. Sounds very fair to me. This all may be moot very shortly if Mandrake doesn't do SOMETHING. Cheers Jason Jason Straight wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 08:53 pm, Lea Gris wrote: Jason Straight wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 05:54 pm, David Walser wrote: ISO availability when the product is finalized pays back all the people who gave their time to beta test. Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the quality of the product will decline. There's no easy solution. It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question about educational institutions and LUGs joining the club though... I dunno - personally I wouldn't care if the iso's required payment. It's not that hard for those of us who maintain cooker mirrors locally to make cd's with MakeCD. It might be a good way to keep get some money from non cooker contributors. On the other hand the freeness of mdk no doubt has contributed to it's advertising by putting it out where more people can see/use it. But what's more important? Getting more people to leech or get some money to continue to offer the product? I say charge for iso's. I would definately hold the ISO's for a while after release. Most people I know have a virtual fire under their ass when a new version comes out - they are looking for the fastest way to get the new candy, if the iso's are out first they get them and skip the box. If the boxes were first no one would want to wait for the iso's to be available. Personnaly I don't care of the box. I
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 27 December 2002 01:43 am, SI Reasoning wrote: > This would be a mistake. The best thing about having the iso out before > the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting > problems back to get fixed. By the time the boxed set is available, many > bugs have been squished and the paying user gets a very fine distro. It > is really as if the final is really a final release candidate and one > gets a whole lot more eyes to help clean everything up before the boxed > set is available. I think that is a huge benefit. That's funny - I decided against buying Mandrake CD's when I saw that what was offered on the shelf at Wal-Mart was a release candidate snapshot from cooker. Why pay $50 for what was older than what I could download? I'd rather just give the $ straight to mdk to have access to the iso's. I really don't think the box set gains anything by having the iso's out early. > I believe Mandrake's best shot is capturing market share by getting as > many people to use their software as possible. Here is a simple plan: > > Create a demo cd ala Knoppix and try and bundle with everything you can > (new computer, etc). I don't agree with neutreware. If you offer a free software that is inferior in any way to the original then how are you advertising for the product? What you are doing is tainting the market by providing a falsely negative image of your product. - -- Jason Straight ICQ: 1796276 PGP: http://www.jeetkunedomaster.net/~jason/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPgxBmRFHZPcobeHxAQIjQAP/Q77MU8D4l6XrRkx0//KvBNi5IILk1anz VSDOTpW4+Rp+WqsRIOiYt+Lh7/uRvawAyW2xlQTeeJw4ASOwJLa/D6V0o5IXNaoi I2LcOGWLHoiy/4VVjih+gf73v2JaY3bhac/F2mn8xlXxvtlmvagtw67YIz+mireI HvDZK7MMzY4= =AQ4O -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
This would be a mistake. The best thing about having the iso out before the boxed set is that you have all of these people testing and reporting problems back to get fixed. By the time the boxed set is available, many bugs have been squished and the paying user gets a very fine distro. It is really as if the final is really a final release candidate and one gets a whole lot more eyes to help clean everything up before the boxed set is available. I think that is a huge benefit. I believe Mandrake's best shot is capturing market share by getting as many people to use their software as possible. Here is a simple plan: Create a demo cd ala Knoppix and try and bundle with everything you can (new computer, etc). The demo cd has the ability to install a basic version of mandrake on the computer while the demo is running ( so one is actually using the computer while the installation is taking place... maybe a great time to have an easy walk through on how to run Mandrake for newbies. The demo cd offers a discount to buy one of the complete mandrake boxed sets. Many people, being impressed on how the demo cd booted and ran on their computer, may then either install the basic version or go ahead and buy the boxed set for themselves. They may also go and give away the demo cd to someone else or use it (with a usb pen drive) to be able to take over any pc with 128+ meg ram and make it theirs. Either way, it continue to give Mandrake free exposure which will translate into increased sales. I still believe that iso's for everything should remain free and downloadable at the time they are complete. Make connections with businesses for bundling the demo cd (such as earthlink which will have connection info burned into the cd with free minutes ala AOL, just pop in, boot and use.) I can also see every mom&pop computer store bundling the mandrake demo on low cost company built machines. It will allow them to say that they have a computer that is up and ready to go... maybe even make arrangements with local isp's with specials such as the one mentioned below. These are a couple of ideas but the main emphasis is that Mandrake will be offering their software as a means to give value to other products, which should increase awareness, circulation and profits for Mandrake also. On Thu, 2002-12-26 at 20:51, Jason wrote: > And so can the general public after "the cooling off period" of say 1 > month. Is that so long to wait for a FREE ISO?? I think not. > Alternatively, users can pay the fee for the newly created cheaper tier > for the club and get the ISO's when released. Sounds very fair to me. > This all may be moot very shortly if Mandrake doesn't do SOMETHING. > > Cheers > > Jason > > Jason Straight wrote: > > >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > >On Thursday 26 December 2002 08:53 pm, Lea Gris wrote: > > > > > >>Jason Straight wrote: > >> > >> > >>>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > >>>Hash: SHA1 > >>> > >>>On Thursday 26 December 2002 05:54 pm, David Walser wrote: > >>> > >>> > ISO availability when the product is finalized pays > back all the people who gave their time to beta test. > Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the > quality of the product will decline. There's no easy > solution. > > It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question > about educational institutions and LUGs joining the > club though... > > > >>>I dunno - personally I wouldn't care if the iso's required payment. It's > >>>not that hard for those of us who maintain cooker mirrors locally to make > >>>cd's with MakeCD. It might be a good way to keep get some money from non > >>>cooker contributors. On the other hand the freeness of mdk no doubt has > >>>contributed to it's advertising by putting it out where more people can > >>>see/use it. But what's more important? Getting more people to leech or > >>>get some money to continue to offer the product? I say charge for iso's. > >>> > >>>I would definately hold the ISO's for a while after release. > >>> > >>>Most people I know have a virtual fire under their ass when a new version > >>>comes out - they are looking for the fastest way to get the new candy, if > >>>the iso's are out first they get them and skip the box. If the boxes were > >>>first no one would want to wait for the iso's to be available. > >>> > >>> > >>Personnaly I don't care of the box. > >>I don't care the newbe (not needed and redondant manual) > >>I don't care shiny stickers > >> > >>But I love single DVD whole contained Mandrake > >>I love reliable, few bug and up to date distro > >>I love using a free operating system and softwares. > >> > >>So I don't like the idea of having to wait for the shiny box and manual > >>to get printed, boxed and distributed. > >> > >>Of course I agree to pay a mandrakeclub member account to download ISOs > >>or having to pay to recieve pre burned DVD or ISO. > >> > >> > >
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
I heartily agree with the concept that Mandrake should charge for ISOs until they can extract themselves from their current problems. I also suggest the following: 1) Move Mandrake Club membership to sliding scale roughly in line with typical anual income of member's country of residence. This is not easy, but it COULD be done with a little effort. 2) Allow for payment by check or money order. Some countries simply don't support the sophisticated credit card infrastructure we have in the west. 3) Allow for monthly payments, but require six months of membership before certain benifits begin to become available. That would allow the user to commit and begin to enjoy some benefits while protecting Mandrake from unethical users who pay one month's membership, grab all the goodies and disappear. 4) Right now a major attraction of the club is the RPM request venue. This enables users to vote on new packages they would like to see for Mandrake. Those items that are popular and can attract a developer become available quickly to members. This is a GREAT attraction and benefit. What needs to be added to this is a parallel Bugzilla fast track for Club members. Members having problems with Mandrake deserve to be able to vote on which fixes they want prioritized and deserve to know what the status is on features that don't work (ie supermount, etc.). This would be a great and attractive feature. Some of us are getting so tired of the bugs that we no longer appreciate the new features. The bugs need to be addressed better than they are now. 5) ISOs should be removed from download availability and the current ISO should be distributable only by Mandrake. Mandrake club membership should include a complementary GPL ISO. I currently reproduce and sell Mandrake ISOs, but I would gladly give up this practice if it would benefit Mandrake. The other option would be for Mandrake to license ISO resellers and collect a small but reasonable amount for each ISO sold. The point is not to make a lot of money on each sale, but rather to make sure each user must contribute something if they want to use the product. All this can be done while maintaining fairness. Bonafide developers, for example, should receive complementary basic club membership, etc. I do think that at some point Mandrake is going to have to restrict ISOs in order to have the financial health necessary to move forward. And remember that firming up the business plan will bring in investors as well. There is a snowball effect and a negative snowball effect the way things are now. 6) Last but not least, it goes without saying, Mandrake Store needs to be fixed. AND every user who has been screwed by the Mandrake store debacle should be sent a gratis GPL Mandrake set and a formal letter of appology. Just my sentiments, George Mitchell
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
Jason wrote: Mandrake may say, yeah but we need help NOW. Ok, I agree, create the lower tiers to the club today (and tell the Linux press and media outlets ASAP) and I will join today. Me along with several other users I have helped convert to Mandrake here in New Zealand (and hopefully millions of users the world over). Mandrake doesn't need handouts, it needs to refine its business model. The availability of ISO downloads before boxed set arrival not only reduces potential sales (and possibly club membership sales) but it also is a double edged sword that ensures your mirrors get hosed driving up the bandwidth costs for Mandrake and the mirror owners. There is something which Jason and all his respondents seem to have have neglected. Downloading ISOs is NOT cheap, since to download the 9.0 tree is 1,582 MB, 1.58 GB. In my case, I would have to up to the next higher cable internet plan (3GB to 5 GB/month), which involves: 3GB $AUD79.95/month 5GB $AUD154.95/month The delta is $AUD75/month. Which at 0.56 is $US42.00/month, $US504/year extra outgoing. Note that the 3GB rate in practice only pays for 5 hours of Mandrake download time from Sweden, and so a 5GB cap would only give me 8.3 hours. There are 154 working hours in a month. Non-cable users where local calls are not free are in a similar boat. This is an investment we all must make before we can even consider luxuries like joining the Mandrake Club. It is particularly difficult for those who are on an age pension ($AUD942/month, set at 25% of the average male worker income) or unemployment benefits. -- Ron. [Melbourne, Australia] troels... now updated to use ftp.sunet.se server. See: http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronst/
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
And so can the general public after "the cooling off period" of say 1 month. Is that so long to wait for a FREE ISO?? I think not. Alternatively, users can pay the fee for the newly created cheaper tier for the club and get the ISO's when released. Sounds very fair to me. This all may be moot very shortly if Mandrake doesn't do SOMETHING. Cheers Jason Jason Straight wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 08:53 pm, Lea Gris wrote: Jason Straight wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 05:54 pm, David Walser wrote: ISO availability when the product is finalized pays back all the people who gave their time to beta test. Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the quality of the product will decline. There's no easy solution. It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question about educational institutions and LUGs joining the club though... I dunno - personally I wouldn't care if the iso's required payment. It's not that hard for those of us who maintain cooker mirrors locally to make cd's with MakeCD. It might be a good way to keep get some money from non cooker contributors. On the other hand the freeness of mdk no doubt has contributed to it's advertising by putting it out where more people can see/use it. But what's more important? Getting more people to leech or get some money to continue to offer the product? I say charge for iso's. I would definately hold the ISO's for a while after release. Most people I know have a virtual fire under their ass when a new version comes out - they are looking for the fastest way to get the new candy, if the iso's are out first they get them and skip the box. If the boxes were first no one would want to wait for the iso's to be available. Personnaly I don't care of the box. I don't care the newbe (not needed and redondant manual) I don't care shiny stickers But I love single DVD whole contained Mandrake I love reliable, few bug and up to date distro I love using a free operating system and softwares. So I don't like the idea of having to wait for the shiny box and manual to get printed, boxed and distributed. Of course I agree to pay a mandrakeclub member account to download ISOs or having to pay to recieve pre burned DVD or ISO. Ok - so mandrake members can download iso's then. - -- Jason Straight ICQ: 1796276 PGP: http://www.jeetkunedomaster.net/~jason/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPgu3PRFHZPcobeHxAQJroAP/WuI2QnNIcf9b4BVAVDkNlQkbxN+qbaIX XHzzhRqdxeXDSJs2oNxA2qqJWTB6dihCsKpmQXhbQysCaUNbq0AYpHiLnk+GVhsQ 1bJ/xNVGahX2Ti0QYxMB2ep/DgmzjBPwOcMjHZknz8XaYZkNmpOAPYKzI+//9iHQ sDSRPK45VJI= =1XB4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 08:53 pm, Lea Gris wrote: > Jason Straight wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday 26 December 2002 05:54 pm, David Walser wrote: > >>ISO availability when the product is finalized pays > >>back all the people who gave their time to beta test. > >>Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the > >>quality of the product will decline. There's no easy > >>solution. > >> > >>It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question > >>about educational institutions and LUGs joining the > >>club though... > > > > I dunno - personally I wouldn't care if the iso's required payment. It's > > not that hard for those of us who maintain cooker mirrors locally to make > > cd's with MakeCD. It might be a good way to keep get some money from non > > cooker contributors. On the other hand the freeness of mdk no doubt has > > contributed to it's advertising by putting it out where more people can > > see/use it. But what's more important? Getting more people to leech or > > get some money to continue to offer the product? I say charge for iso's. > > > > I would definately hold the ISO's for a while after release. > > > > Most people I know have a virtual fire under their ass when a new version > > comes out - they are looking for the fastest way to get the new candy, if > > the iso's are out first they get them and skip the box. If the boxes were > > first no one would want to wait for the iso's to be available. > > Personnaly I don't care of the box. > I don't care the newbe (not needed and redondant manual) > I don't care shiny stickers > > But I love single DVD whole contained Mandrake > I love reliable, few bug and up to date distro > I love using a free operating system and softwares. > > So I don't like the idea of having to wait for the shiny box and manual > to get printed, boxed and distributed. > > Of course I agree to pay a mandrakeclub member account to download ISOs > or having to pay to recieve pre burned DVD or ISO. Ok - so mandrake members can download iso's then. - -- Jason Straight ICQ: 1796276 PGP: http://www.jeetkunedomaster.net/~jason/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPgu3PRFHZPcobeHxAQJroAP/WuI2QnNIcf9b4BVAVDkNlQkbxN+qbaIX XHzzhRqdxeXDSJs2oNxA2qqJWTB6dihCsKpmQXhbQysCaUNbq0AYpHiLnk+GVhsQ 1bJ/xNVGahX2Ti0QYxMB2ep/DgmzjBPwOcMjHZknz8XaYZkNmpOAPYKzI+//9iHQ sDSRPK45VJI= =1XB4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Straight wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 05:54 pm, David Walser wrote: ISO availability when the product is finalized pays back all the people who gave their time to beta test. Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the quality of the product will decline. There's no easy solution. It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question about educational institutions and LUGs joining the club though... I dunno - personally I wouldn't care if the iso's required payment. It's not that hard for those of us who maintain cooker mirrors locally to make cd's with MakeCD. It might be a good way to keep get some money from non cooker contributors. On the other hand the freeness of mdk no doubt has contributed to it's advertising by putting it out where more people can see/use it. But what's more important? Getting more people to leech or get some money to continue to offer the product? I say charge for iso's. I would definately hold the ISO's for a while after release. Most people I know have a virtual fire under their ass when a new version comes out - they are looking for the fastest way to get the new candy, if the iso's are out first they get them and skip the box. If the boxes were first no one would want to wait for the iso's to be available. Personnaly I don't care of the box. I don't care the newbe (not needed and redondant manual) I don't care shiny stickers But I love single DVD whole contained Mandrake I love reliable, few bug and up to date distro I love using a free operating system and softwares. So I don't like the idea of having to wait for the shiny box and manual to get printed, boxed and distributed. Of course I agree to pay a mandrakeclub member account to download ISOs or having to pay to recieve pre burned DVD or ISO. Thus I loved buying mdk 8.2 DVD edition (just a set of 8CD and 1DVD, no box, no printed manual). All the this wrapped with a bubble plastic. A shame I had to wait 6 weeks to get this at home. A shame I had to wait 3 month to get my missing CD from mdk 7.0 after sending the form in the box. Maybe Mandrake could let download older versions of their distro for free. (like mdk8.2) for example and charge mandrakeclub subscriptions for current. best regards, - -- Léa Gris - http://www.noiraude.net/ () Campagne du ruban texte brut contre les courriels en HTML, /\ contre les pièces jointes Microsoft. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+C7KhiNTO/wgn58kRArRPAJ93puAhu0SSETX3OL0QFGiEuI4QQQCZAd0U VF+2n979GTBj7LJGlw9ZsIc= =B+/k -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 26 December 2002 05:54 pm, David Walser wrote: > ISO availability when the product is finalized pays > back all the people who gave their time to beta test. > Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the > quality of the product will decline. There's no easy > solution. > > It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question > about educational institutions and LUGs joining the > club though... I dunno - personally I wouldn't care if the iso's required payment. It's not that hard for those of us who maintain cooker mirrors locally to make cd's with MakeCD. It might be a good way to keep get some money from non cooker contributors. On the other hand the freeness of mdk no doubt has contributed to it's advertising by putting it out where more people can see/use it. But what's more important? Getting more people to leech or get some money to continue to offer the product? I say charge for iso's. I would definately hold the ISO's for a while after release. Most people I know have a virtual fire under their ass when a new version comes out - they are looking for the fastest way to get the new candy, if the iso's are out first they get them and skip the box. If the boxes were first no one would want to wait for the iso's to be available. - -- Jason Straight ICQ: 1796276 PGP: http://www.jeetkunedomaster.net/~jason/pubkey.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBPguQCBFHZPcobeHxAQK4vgP9FECQCD+oTsIjJGbpdPdkjrsKi3Uk34F9 EKLVFEVfjFhH6ei/1jo3SGKih7lFekaAlvBaVRjmtjrvjce2zfwH2jmxlEN+2Htt C+CiaEevxP43gM3zFXVaFDFtCltUVmuM6zYUeoj8CqJMxj42OSk/7toXna2EN9I4 my89Gw3qkbY= =ohXb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
I would be more inclined to join the Mandrake Club if I could send a cheque in Canadian funds to Mandrake's Canadian office. -- Gary Walsh Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://homepages.dsl.ca/~gwalsh/
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
I agree but I'd rather lose a few beta testers (if they can't understand the reasons Mandrake need to change their policies then perhaps it's no great loss) than lose the distroI run Cooker and update it each day so I am one of those "beta testers" too. The Cooker packages would still be available for the beta testers anyway. They don't need the ISO's, they can create an ISO from Cooker Packages (since a release is only a stable snapshot of Cooker anyway) or use Mandrake install or whatever. There are many solutions to keep beta testers happy I believe. Just MHO. Cheers Jason Mandrake may say, yeah but we need help NOW. Ok, I agree, create the lower tiers to the club today (and tell the Linux press and media outlets ASAP) and I will join today. Me along with several other users I have helped convert to Mandrake here in New Zealand (and hopefully millions of users the world over). Mandrake doesn't need handouts, it needs to refine its business model. The availability of ISO downloads before boxed set arrival not only reduces potential sales (and possibly club membership sales) but it also is a double edged sword that ensures your mirrors get hosed driving up the bandwidth costs for Mandrake and the mirror owners. ISO availability when the product is finalized pays back all the people who gave their time to beta test. Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the quality of the product will decline. There's no easy solution. It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question about educational institutions and LUGs joining the club though... __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
--- Jason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > First, I am not a Mandrake club member (though my > father is, and he is > the one who downloads the ISO's for me). I am not > because the lowest > tier still costs $60 USD/Yr. I am in New Zealand and > that is over $120 > NZD/yr. A lot by some peoples standards. I would > like to suggest > Mandrake add some lower tiers to the club. Say a $10 > or $20USD/yr. tier. > I know many people cannot afford $60 USD/Yr. but I > think most users (no > matter what currency they own) can afford $10 or > $20/yr. It wouldn't be so bad if you could pay it monthly rather than having to pay it all up front (or has something changed?). > Ok you say, but then what should they get for this > fee?? I say nothing > more than the availability to get ISO downloads as > they are released. It > seems to me (after reading in the press and on the > lists) that the > biggest problem is freeloaders downloading ISO's. > This cuts the feet out > from under the commercial distro's viability, > especially when the ISO's > hit the mirrors BEFORE the boxed sets hit store > shelves. I suggest a > "cooling off period" of say 1 month. This would mean > that current ISO > downloads would not be available until 1 month after > the boxed sets hit > store shelves. The newly created (if you choose to > go this route) lower > tiered members of the club would still get (via a > password or whatever) > immediate access to ISO's via the mirrors. I LOVE > the fact that Mandrake > allows ftp downloads of it's ISO's (and cooker > packages) and I think if > this was eliminated then many users would swith to a > distro that allows > ISO downloads (like RedHat) but if Mandrake went the > way I suggest then > I think most users would either a) join a lower tier > of the club to get > the downloads as they are released or b) buy a boxed > set or wait the 1 > month to download the free ISO. Either way, this > tightens up the ISO > policy just enough to hopefully help Mandrake > significantly while still > staying true to the ideals of free software in > general. > > Mandrake may say, yeah but we need help NOW. Ok, I > agree, create the > lower tiers to the club today (and tell the Linux > press and media > outlets ASAP) and I will join today. Me along with > several other users I > have helped convert to Mandrake here in New Zealand > (and hopefully > millions of users the world over). Mandrake doesn't > need handouts, it > needs to refine its business model. The availability > of ISO downloads > before boxed set arrival not only reduces potential > sales (and possibly > club membership sales) but it also is a double edged > sword that ensures > your mirrors get hosed driving up the bandwidth > costs for Mandrake and > the mirror owners. ISO availability when the product is finalized pays back all the people who gave their time to beta test. Take that away you'll lose the beta testers, and the quality of the product will decline. There's no easy solution. It *would* be nice if someone would answer my question about educational institutions and LUGs joining the club though... __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com
[Cooker] Saving Mandrake - a Users Perspective
Hi to all those at Mandrake, I have been a Mandrake user (both Vanilla and Cooker versions) for quite some time now and have been on the mailing lists as well. I have seen the banter regarding the financial malaise Mandrake currently finds itself in and it seems increasingly likely that Mandrake either will cease to exist or cease to exist as we know it. Already it seems many developers have been laid off, with a concurrent slowdown in some areas of Mandrakes development. Before (and I hope it doesn't) Mandrake goes out of business I would like to offer my .0002c worth regarding how I feel about Mandrakes revenue model and business plan. First, I am not a Mandrake club member (though my father is, and he is the one who downloads the ISO's for me). I am not because the lowest tier still costs $60 USD/Yr. I am in New Zealand and that is over $120 NZD/yr. A lot by some peoples standards. I would like to suggest Mandrake add some lower tiers to the club. Say a $10 or $20USD/yr. tier. I know many people cannot afford $60 USD/Yr. but I think most users (no matter what currency they own) can afford $10 or $20/yr. Ok you say, but then what should they get for this fee?? I say nothing more than the availability to get ISO downloads as they are released. It seems to me (after reading in the press and on the lists) that the biggest problem is freeloaders downloading ISO's. This cuts the feet out from under the commercial distro's viability, especially when the ISO's hit the mirrors BEFORE the boxed sets hit store shelves. I suggest a "cooling off period" of say 1 month. This would mean that current ISO downloads would not be available until 1 month after the boxed sets hit store shelves. The newly created (if you choose to go this route) lower tiered members of the club would still get (via a password or whatever) immediate access to ISO's via the mirrors. I LOVE the fact that Mandrake allows ftp downloads of it's ISO's (and cooker packages) and I think if this was eliminated then many users would swith to a distro that allows ISO downloads (like RedHat) but if Mandrake went the way I suggest then I think most users would either a) join a lower tier of the club to get the downloads as they are released or b) buy a boxed set or wait the 1 month to download the free ISO. Either way, this tightens up the ISO policy just enough to hopefully help Mandrake significantly while still staying true to the ideals of free software in general. Mandrake may say, yeah but we need help NOW. Ok, I agree, create the lower tiers to the club today (and tell the Linux press and media outlets ASAP) and I will join today. Me along with several other users I have helped convert to Mandrake here in New Zealand (and hopefully millions of users the world over). Mandrake doesn't need handouts, it needs to refine its business model. The availability of ISO downloads before boxed set arrival not only reduces potential sales (and possibly club membership sales) but it also is a double edged sword that ensures your mirrors get hosed driving up the bandwidth costs for Mandrake and the mirror owners. I hope this does not sound like drivel but this is how it is "in the trenches" and as Mandrake is fond of saying, it is OUR (the users) distro. I am trying to tell Mandrake how I WOULD pay for it if they would let me ;) I know I could "donate" but I think most users would rather feel like they are part of their distro rather than giving hand outs to it. As I said, just my .0002c worth. All the best and long live Mandrake from a grateful user, Jason Greenwood
