Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Richard Houser wrote: > As I understand it, Mandrake's policy is that the download edition only > contains free software (as in open source with few if any exceptions). No more exceptions. > The NVidia drivers are not provided in a source format (they consist > largly of pre-compiled object code), so they do not fit into these > restrictions. > > I do think it would be a major plus for mandrake if the mandrake > customized rpms were posted on NVidia's driver page They are. They are also on the commercial CDs, they are also on Mandrake Club, I even made updated ones for the kernel update for 8.2. -- even if it's as > simple as just renaming the package. I doubt NVidia would object to > such a request. I personally use the NVidia provided SRPMs to compile > my own (and I have had minor issues with modules getting lost anytime I > boot into another kernel and back). I posted a 3 line script that would rebuild the SRPMs here a few days back. If people want out the box support for proprietary drivers, they should buy the dist. Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Quoting Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: | | |>020909 Adam Williamson wrote: |> |>as the subscriber who first raised this, i can only agree with 1st-time AW. |>there are degrees of expertise, very wide ones: |>i've been using Mandrake for 2 years ( 6.1 , 8.0 briefly, 8.2 , 9.0rc1 ), |>but i have no idea what the strengths or weaknesses of 3.3.6 & 4.2.0 are. | | | The best thing (IMHO) is to install 4.2.x, download the NVidia accelerated | drivers, and install them. Mega performance improvement. | | The edit /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers file and add a -dpi 75 to the server config | line(s) | I'm running an Inno3d Tornado Geforce2 Pro 64 (64MB) and a Diamond V550 (Riva TNT 16MB) under the XFree86-4.2.0 that ships with Mandrake 8.2 both with the NVIDIA supplied drivers (latest). I can say that the 2D drivers in the nvidia module are a lot, lot better than those in the binary drivers in regards to startup. The binary drivers take anywhere from 2 to 5 attempts at starting X on my 1Ghz Athlon Thunderbird w/ 1GB RAM enterprise kernel (tried a bunch of varieties, think this one was 2.4.19-8mdk) and 10 to 20 attemps on a K6-2/400 w/ 256MB RAM standard (2.4.18custom, 2.4.19-5, 2.4.18custom-openmosix). I almost took out the binary drivers on the K6-2 (my server) as anytime X has to be restarted (for example a logout back to gdm), the system spends about 10 seconds worth of X starting and dying before it gets to the splashscreen and then another 10 seconds until X and the window manager actually start. During this time, any network based connections are frozen. I'd bet the whole machine itself it locked in such a manner, but I don't have 2 video cards on the box to give it a shot. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAj2AEZsACgkQUMkt1ZRwL1NvowCgnRILZFkb9WWr0G/1lNmHfNJ0 s4wAnjf0GbwfH1nB7PmWJkg/z4gHrRGq =vsoy -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 dcd wrote: | Hi, |I don't understand why these drivers are excluded. They are a free | download from NVidea, and currently it only hurts the distro that 3d is | so poor in the standard edition. | dcd | | Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: | |> Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: |> |> |> |>> On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 10:43, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: |>> |>> |>> | (13) 3D acceleration: whatever does this refer to? | why would 3.3.6 give 3D, but not 4.2.0, and why is it "experimental"? | |>>> |>>> There is no free software 3d acceleration for nvidia in XFree-4, |>>> while there was an experimental one in XFree-3.3. |>>> |>> |>> Personally I think this section should be changed to make it *REALLY* |>> clear that X 3.3.6 really isn't recommended. The wording here could well |>> lead a newbie to choose 3.3.6, thinking it's the best option, whereas it |>> definitely isn't (I know this because it's exactly what I did the first |>> time I installed Mandrake); the 3D acceleration in 3.3.6 is pants anyway |>> and unusable for most things you'd want 3D acceleration for, and 4.2.0 |>> |> |> |> It's tagged "experimental". If people choose it, it's on purpose! |> |> |> |>> is so much better in other areas that everyone should use it unless they |>> have a really pressing reason not to. Perhaps it could make this more |>> clear, and also mention the availability of closed-source drivers for |>> 4.2.0 providing proper 3D support, which would hopefully mean less |>> people would make my mistake. |>> |> |> |> When you buy the powerpack, you have the proprietary drivers in |> the commercial CD's, and I think the drivers are automatically |> installed (it's bad, but too many customers ask for it). |> |> |> | As I understand it, Mandrake's policy is that the download edition only contains free software (as in open source with few if any exceptions). The NVidia drivers are not provided in a source format (they consist largly of pre-compiled object code), so they do not fit into these restrictions. I do think it would be a major plus for mandrake if the mandrake customized rpms were posted on NVidia's driver page -- even if it's as simple as just renaming the package. I doubt NVidia would object to such a request. I personally use the NVidia provided SRPMs to compile my own (and I have had minor issues with modules getting lost anytime I boot into another kernel and back). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAj2AB8IACgkQUMkt1ZRwL1N1PQCgiucgm5IdEr5am9oCsHVSwtSp i1QAn01zS/XNIYzfuWtWgUGWhTNMeGuE =PGMj -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Am Dienstag, 10. September 2002, 20:53:45 Uhr MET, schrieb dcd: >I don't understand why these drivers are excluded. They are a free > download from NVidea, and currently it only hurts the distro that 3d is > so poor in the standard edition. You are either a troll or you don't understand the license policy of Mandrakesoft. It is a free download, but it's not free software. You only get the binary and the redistribution is restricted. BTW I've learned my lesson, my next PC won't include a Nvidia gfx board anymore. -- Götz Waschk <> master of computer science <> University of Rostock http://wwwtec.informatik.uni-rostock.de/~waschk/waschk.asc for PGP key --> Logout Fascism! <--
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Le Mardi 10 Septembre 2002 15:43, Götz Waschk a écrit :
> Am Dienstag, 10. September 2002, 20:53:45 Uhr MET, schrieb dcd:
> >I don't understand why these drivers are excluded. They are a free
> > download from NVidea, and currently it only hurts the distro that 3d is
> > so poor in the standard edition.
>
> You are either a troll or you don't understand the license policy of
> Mandrakesoft. It is a free download, but it's not free software. You
> only get the binary and the redistribution is restricted.
What he is suggesting is not that bad: a disclaimer message as used for
winmodems ("you have a winmodem, we don't support them") coud be useful.
> BTW I've learned my lesson, my next PC won't include a Nvidia gfx
> board anymore.
I thought i've also learned it, so i bought a Radeon, and ATI just released
binary drivers also :-(
--
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Ooops! damn foot in mouth again. Rephrase that, to what I meant, instead of what I said. (Yes I do know the definition of "FREE" ) Wouldn't it be a better policy to refer people to, or notify them of, the availability of the Nvidea 3D drivers, and install the current XFree86 4.2.. drivers rather than have them install poor quality "experimental" drivers during installation. Currently the inclusion of the option to install poor 3d drivers is detrimental to the distibutions reputation. However including a reference to a free download (albiet, proprietry Software ) would not be nearly so bad. Hey! on the upside if enough people then complain to them(NVidea) they may even fix the drivers. dcd dcd wrote: > Hi, >I don't understand why these drivers are excluded. They are a free > download from NVidea, and currently it only hurts the distro that 3d > is so poor in the standard edition. > dcd > > Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > >> Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> >> >> >>> On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 10:43, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: >>> >>> >>> > (13) 3D acceleration: whatever does this refer to? > why would 3.3.6 give 3D, but not 4.2.0, and why is it "experimental"? > There is no free software 3d acceleration for nvidia in XFree-4, while there was an experimental one in XFree-3.3. >>> >>> Personally I think this section should be changed to make it *REALLY* >>> clear that X 3.3.6 really isn't recommended. The wording here could well >>> lead a newbie to choose 3.3.6, thinking it's the best option, whereas it >>> definitely isn't (I know this because it's exactly what I did the first >>> time I installed Mandrake); the 3D acceleration in 3.3.6 is pants anyway >>> and unusable for most things you'd want 3D acceleration for, and 4.2.0 >>> >> >> >> It's tagged "experimental". If people choose it, it's on purpose! >> >> >> >>> is so much better in other areas that everyone should use it unless they >>> have a really pressing reason not to. Perhaps it could make this more >>> clear, and also mention the availability of closed-source drivers for >>> 4.2.0 providing proper 3D support, which would hopefully mean less >>> people would make my mistake. >>> >> >> >> When you buy the powerpack, you have the proprietary drivers in >> the commercial CD's, and I think the drivers are automatically >> installed (it's bad, but too many customers ask for it). >> >> >> > > > >
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Le Mardi 10 Septembre 2002 13:23, dcd a écrit : > > Hi, > > I don't understand why these drivers are excluded. They are a free > > download from NVidea, and currently it only hurts the distro that 3d is > > so poor in the standard edition. > Do you ever heard mdk policy about software licenses ? E.g. we don't put non free software on the "free software" CD's (3 first CD's, more or less). > BTW, maybe they could be a FAQ automatically sent to people > subscribing cooker ? There's one (or at least there was one), writtent by glee and me. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Le Mardi 10 Septembre 2002 13:23, dcd a écrit : > Hi, > I don't understand why these drivers are excluded. They are a free > download from NVidea, and currently it only hurts the distro that 3d is > so poor in the standard edition. Do you ever heard mdk policy about software licenses ? BTW, maybe they could be a FAQ automatically sent to people subscribing cooker ? -- Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Quoting Philip Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > 020909 Adam Williamson wrote: > > as the subscriber who first raised this, i can only agree with 1st-time AW. > there are degrees of expertise, very wide ones: > i've been using Mandrake for 2 years ( 6.1 , 8.0 briefly, 8.2 , 9.0rc1 ), > but i have no idea what the strengths or weaknesses of 3.3.6 & 4.2.0 are. The best thing (IMHO) is to install 4.2.x, download the NVidia accelerated drivers, and install them. Mega performance improvement. The edit /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers file and add a -dpi 75 to the server config line(s)
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
On Tue, 2002-09-10 at 10:51, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 10:43, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > > > > (13) 3D acceleration: whatever does this refer to? > > > > why would 3.3.6 give 3D, but not 4.2.0, and why is it "experimental"? > > > > > > There is no free software 3d acceleration for nvidia in XFree-4, > > > while there was an experimental one in XFree-3.3. > > > > Personally I think this section should be changed to make it *REALLY* > > clear that X 3.3.6 really isn't recommended. The wording here could well > > lead a newbie to choose 3.3.6, thinking it's the best option, whereas it > > definitely isn't (I know this because it's exactly what I did the first > > time I installed Mandrake); the 3D acceleration in 3.3.6 is pants anyway > > and unusable for most things you'd want 3D acceleration for, and 4.2.0 > > It's tagged "experimental". If people choose it, it's on purpose! Except this is clearly not the case, as I demonstrated. It's perfectly feasible that someone who isn't experienced could choose 3.3.6, reasoning that experimental 3D acceleration is better than none at all, which is exactly what I did. I'm sure others have too. > > is so much better in other areas that everyone should use it unless they > > have a really pressing reason not to. Perhaps it could make this more > > clear, and also mention the availability of closed-source drivers for > > 4.2.0 providing proper 3D support, which would hopefully mean less > > people would make my mistake. > > When you buy the powerpack, you have the proprietary drivers in > the commercial CD's, and I think the drivers are automatically > installed (it's bad, but too many customers ask for it). Fine, but this doesn't solve the installation of 3CD edition, which gives no indication at all that such drivers exist. It doesn't have to INCLUDE them, just point out that they exist and are a far better choice for NVIDIA 3D acceleration. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
On Tue, 2002-09-10 at 10:09, Philip Webb wrote: > i've been using Mandrake for 2 years ( 6.1 , 8.0 briefly, 8.2 , 9.0rc1 ), > but i have no idea what the strengths or weaknesses of 3.3.6 & 4.2.0 are. Well, here's a quick summary - 4.2.0 is good, and 3.3.6 is rubbish. There may be a test later. ;) Really, that first install I did with 3.3.6 was so horribly slow and occasionally broken compared to an identical install with 4.2.0. Just try playing a video or something...*shudder*. Is there anyone out there who actually DOES want to use X 3.3.6 with their nvidia card? If not, can we just dump this dialog? -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
Adam Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 10:43, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > > (13) 3D acceleration: whatever does this refer to? > > > why would 3.3.6 give 3D, but not 4.2.0, and why is it "experimental"? > > > > There is no free software 3d acceleration for nvidia in XFree-4, > > while there was an experimental one in XFree-3.3. > > Personally I think this section should be changed to make it *REALLY* > clear that X 3.3.6 really isn't recommended. The wording here could well > lead a newbie to choose 3.3.6, thinking it's the best option, whereas it > definitely isn't (I know this because it's exactly what I did the first > time I installed Mandrake); the 3D acceleration in 3.3.6 is pants anyway > and unusable for most things you'd want 3D acceleration for, and 4.2.0 It's tagged "experimental". If people choose it, it's on purpose! > is so much better in other areas that everyone should use it unless they > have a really pressing reason not to. Perhaps it could make this more > clear, and also mention the availability of closed-source drivers for > 4.2.0 providing proper 3D support, which would hopefully mean less > people would make my mistake. When you buy the powerpack, you have the proprietary drivers in the commercial CD's, and I think the drivers are automatically installed (it's bad, but too many customers ask for it). -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
020909 Adam Williamson wrote: > On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 20:12, Buchan Milne wrote: >> AFAIK, this option (3d acceleration for 3.x) >> only appears in an expert install off the GPL edition, >> so IMHO, the user asked to be treated like an expert. >> "Experimental" should be good enough? > Ah, in that case it's less of an issue - wasn't aware of that, sorry. > Experimental, hmm, well, in a more casual universe > i'd replace it with "Bloody useless" ;) as the subscriber who first raised this, i can only agree with 1st-time AW. there are degrees of expertise, very wide ones: i've been using Mandrake for 2 years ( 6.1 , 8.0 briefly, 8.2 , 9.0rc1 ), but i have no idea what the strengths or weaknesses of 3.3.6 & 4.2.0 are. this is really one of those bits of ancient history which continue to lie around in the installation script: it's time the developers gave the script a quick review & cleaned them up. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 20:12, Buchan Milne wrote: > AFAIK, this option (3d acceleration for 3.x) only appears in an expert > install off the GPL edition, so IMHO, the user asked to be treated like > an expert. "Experimental" should be good enough? Ah, in that case it's less of an issue - wasn't aware of that, sorry. Experimental, hmm, well, in a more casual universe i'd replace it with "Bloody useless" ;) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Nvidia 3.3.6 / 4.2.0 choice on install
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Williamson wrote: | On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 10:43, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: | Personally I think this section should be changed to make it *REALLY* | clear that X 3.3.6 really isn't recommended. The wording here could well | lead a newbie to choose 3.3.6, thinking it's the best option, whereas it | definitely isn't (I know this because it's exactly what I did the first | time I installed Mandrake); the 3D acceleration in 3.3.6 is pants anyway | and unusable for most things you'd want 3D acceleration for, and 4.2.0 | is so much better in other areas that everyone should use it unless they | have a really pressing reason not to. Perhaps it could make this more | clear, and also mention the availability of closed-source drivers for | 4.2.0 providing proper 3D support, which would hopefully mean less | people would make my mistake. AFAIK, this option (3d acceleration for 3.x) only appears in an expert install off the GPL edition, so IMHO, the user asked to be treated like an expert. "Experimental" should be good enough? - -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE9fPKYrJK6UGDSBKcRAi8LAJ92vCt/JR4KXCqI+gH4k2MtEtxB6ACfTfWh 46PbOZJnaE6BNLpHnOjmU5s= =I3+S -END PGP SIGNATURE-
