Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Michael Scherer wrote: I still don't know how thing can be as they are even with Sun's enginners working on usability. How much people are trying to do a good desktop with gnome ? And how many people does it take to write a good dialog ! Look, if you really don't know what you're talking about, just keep quiet OK? The file chooser is one of the most (if not THE most) touchy subjects in GNOME development land. *It is being worked on*, and suffice it to say it's not as easy as just drawing up a new dialog. And, I am pretty sure that's only because GNOME should not look like windows... BS. -- Reinout van SchouwenArtificial Intelligence student email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mobile phone: +31-6-44360778 GPG public key http://www.cs.vu.nl/~reinout/reinout.asc MandrakeClub member
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 14:00, Adam Williamson a écrit : ...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. I don't see that anywhere...but then, Cooker seems to have been missing messages again lately. Here is a cut-and-paste of what I said: Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. Take gnome-ppp versus kppp. gnome-ppp insists on a MRU of 296, and even if you change the settings, it doesn't use them, the 296 value is hard-coded into the gnome-ppp binary. This breaks EarthLink, who will not accept 296 as a valid MRU (that 296 value was valid when everyone was using 9600 modems BTW). It's little things, but all these little things add up... Jean-Michel relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, Are my examples specific enough? I would add to this the fact that gnome always complains if the hostname doesn't resolve (this is a PITA), the icons are really bad compared to the KDE ones (specially the home icon), that kcalc does hexadecimal, octal, binary, while the gnome one doesn't even have a % key (WTF?). I start konqueror, click on a .tar.gz, it shows the contents, if I try the same thing with Nautilus, it says it has no viewer. Maybe these issues can be easily adressed, but it really looks like the GNOME team is too focused on the environment, and not enough focused on the applications. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. Does GNOME provide any apps besides the file manager, browser and e-mail client? ;-) Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. Jean-Michel
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le lun 10/03/2003 à 14:00, Adam Williamson a écrit : ...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. I don't see that anywhere...but then, Cooker seems to have been missing messages again lately. Here is a cut-and-paste of what I said: Thanks. Yes, this message did get lost somewhere. Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. One very nice thing to try in the GNOME file dialog that doesn't work in KDE, AFAICT - tab-completion! Type a partial directory name in the entry box, hit tab, see what happens...=) Take gnome-ppp versus kppp. gnome-ppp insists on a MRU of 296, and even if you change the settings, it doesn't use them, the 296 value is hard-coded into the gnome-ppp binary. This breaks EarthLink, who will not accept 296 as a valid MRU (that 296 value was valid when everyone was using 9600 modems BTW). It's little things, but all these little things add up... As someone pointed out, the gnome-network stuff is incredibly obsolete and not shipped with GNOME anymore. So the point now is: KDE has kppp, GNOME doesn't have anything :). relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, Are my examples specific enough? Yes, but as I mentioned, gnome-ppp is obsolete and the file dialog *is* being worked on. I would add to this the fact that gnome always complains if the hostname doesn't resolve (this is a PITA), the icons are really bad compared to the KDE ones (specially the home icon), that kcalc does hexadecimal, octal, binary, while the gnome one doesn't even have a % key (WTF?). I start konqueror, click on a .tar.gz, it shows the contents, if I try the same thing with Nautilus, it says it has no viewer. Can't say I mind the icons, personally. The default calculator is simple by design: if you want something more capable, use the scarily fully-featured gcalctool. file-roller ought to deal with archive contents, I think... Maybe these issues can be easily adressed, but it really looks like the GNOME team is too focused on the environment, and not enough focused on the applications. Hmm, you've got to do both, really :) I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. gcalctool, xchat, gaim. xchat and gaim are strengths of the GTK+ environment, I know several KDE users who use them...there's GnomeICU, too. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. Does GNOME provide any apps besides the file manager, browser and e-mail client? ;-) Well, it all depends on the definition of app, really ;). The stuff in Fifth Toe (galeon and some other programs) will be part of GNOME at some point, and from a certain angle you can call things like gnome-system-monitor apps. But the point is that you can make an app that uses the GTK+ toolkit but no other bits of the GNOME framework, or you can make one that, er, does :). Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. I don't see the rough edges as particular to new users, really. It's better just to say GNOME 2.2 still has some rough edges :). Most of them are being industriously filed down for 2.4, though. :) -- adamw
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. AFAICR, this was originally promised for 2.0! Then again for 2.2! It's been years since they have promised to have this fixed. And it won't be as functional when it is done either. One very nice thing to try in the GNOME file dialog that doesn't work in KDE, AFAICT - tab-completion! Type a partial directory name in the entry box, hit tab, see what happens...=) It may not work in the Location field, but it does work (not via tabbing, via a drop-down box) in the recently-used directory drop-down. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. gcalctool, xchat, gaim. xchat and gaim are strengths of the GTK+ environment, I know several KDE users who use them...there's GnomeICU, too. Remember, JM mentioned corporates. Besides email and web (which are often not striclty work), our users never need irc/chat/im stuff. One of the biggest issues is file management etc, and Nautilus just doesn't cut it. Also, Gnome doesn't have an OpenOffice quick starter any more. Well, it all depends on the definition of app, really ;). The stuff in Fifth Toe (galeon and some other programs) will be part of GNOME at some point, and from a certain angle you can call things like gnome-system-monitor apps. But the point is that you can make an app that uses the GTK+ toolkit but no other bits of the GNOME framework, or you can make one that, er, does :). Exactly the reasons Gnome fails to be consistent. The only Qt/non-KDE apps around are those that are specifically cross-platform. It looks like the GNOME people go out of their way to create a non-consistent desktop. Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. I don't see the rough edges as particular to new users, really. It's better just to say GNOME 2.2 still has some rough edges :). Most of them are being industriously filed down for 2.4, though. :) When last did Gnome not have rough edges? KDE2.2.x was pretty good, KDE3.0.x was better. Nothing since Gnome1.4 has shown any promise IMHO (except that Nautilus seems to have gotten a little bit faster). Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bPRErJK6UGDSBKcRAmsZAJ9zuELCm5LiHonNs+Q4UZPcUurTvACgmvZT yXguTsR1c0SL5rqBnLKaVbE= =MBdR -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
The two MAIN problems under gnome are certainly file management and...PRINTING Abiword has it's own printbox, so does galeon, so does gnumeric, so does ggv...can someone do something pretty about that ! You can't tell a new user to open an xterm and type lpr...and what if you want to print landscape ? Please read man lpr. That's not serious. That's a shame because there are really very good things in gnome panel (i love the two menus concept) , desktop (icons resizing) , control-center (really easier than kcontrol) and nautilus (image zoom with the mouse..) for ex. We need those two very important dialog boxes : printing and file selection. Buchan Milne a écrit: Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. AFAICR, this was originally promised for 2.0! Then again for 2.2! It's been years since they have promised to have this fixed. And it won't be as functional when it is done either. One very nice thing to try in the GNOME file dialog that doesn't work in KDE, AFAICT - tab-completion! Type a partial directory name in the entry box, hit tab, see what happens...=) It may not work in the Location field, but it does work (not via tabbing, via a drop-down box) in the recently-used directory drop-down. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. gcalctool, xchat, gaim. xchat and gaim are strengths of the GTK+ environment, I know several KDE users who use them...there's GnomeICU, too. Remember, JM mentioned corporates. Besides email and web (which are often not striclty work), our users never need irc/chat/im stuff. One of the biggest issues is file management etc, and Nautilus just doesn't cut it. Also, Gnome doesn't have an OpenOffice quick starter any more. Well, it all depends on the definition of app, really ;). The stuff in Fifth Toe (galeon and some other programs) will be part of GNOME at some point, and from a certain angle you can call things like gnome-system-monitor apps. But the point is that you can make an app that uses the GTK+ toolkit but no other bits of the GNOME framework, or you can make one that, er, does :). Exactly the reasons Gnome fails to be consistent. The only Qt/non-KDE apps around are those that are specifically cross-platform. It looks like the GNOME people go out of their way to create a non-consistent desktop. Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. I don't see the rough edges as particular to new users, really. It's better just to say GNOME 2.2 still has some rough edges :). Most of them are being industriously filed down for 2.4, though. :) When last did Gnome not have rough edges? KDE2.2.x was pretty good, KDE3.0.x was better. Nothing since Gnome1.4 has shown any promise IMHO (except that Nautilus seems to have gotten a little bit faster). Buchan -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
Le Lundi 10 Mars 2003 21:23, El Gringo ( aka Buchan Milne ) a écrit : Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. AFAICR, this was originally promised for 2.0! Then again for 2.2! It's been years since they have promised to have this fixed. And it won't be as functional when it is done either. That's right. I knew that i was not dreaming. I still don't know how thing can be as they are even with Sun's enginners working on usability. How much people are trying to do a good desktop with gnome ? And how many people does it take to write a good dialog ! Even in KDE 1, it was a lot better. And, I am pretty sure that's only because GNOME should not look like windows... -- Michaël Scherer
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Monday 10 March 2003 10:00 am, Adam Williamson wrote: I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are Except you keep just posting stuff like the paragraph above, which *isn't* facts, it's vague assertions. It's true, but unless you start relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, I'm sure the GNOME team would like to hear from you. (This isn't trolling - I genuinely want to know what you think the difference is, and you haven't spelt it out yet.) Oh well it all comes down to usability and besides when the customer says this is what I want no amount of arguing one way or the other will change there mind. You simply do your best to give them what they want. I cant say in each specific case why they prefer what they do and quite frankly it does not matter all I know is this is what they want so I give it to them. The simplest solution is the best one. Besides I did note there are specific apps which do stand out. Evolution is a very good example. only for my use For my personal use I've been using kde for a long time. Unless gnome has importers for my addressbook and who knows what else I will not switch over besides I'm comfortable with what I have and gnome although offers the same functionality does not offer anything that is compelling for me to switch when I can simply run the few gnome apps under kde that meet my need. /only for my use barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up enjoy your gnome but don't ask me to install it by default for my business users who can barely even turn a computer on much figure out all the setting for the window manager. You guys unless you do the it stuff for some big places really don't have any idea. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference between giving him a desktop with KMail and Konq buttons, and one with Evo and Galeon buttons...most business users would probably prefer Evo to KMail, too, since it's a dead ringer for Outlook. It's more like the default layout I think but I'm not really sure. Whatever the case I simply try to fulfill the customers wishes. In finishing there are some outstanding gnome apps. Evolution, xchat, gftp, and gaim comes to mind but until the ease of use is there for all their apps it's not feasible. By the way I have both installed on my own system not that it matters. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. Ah sorry I was unaware of this for my own personal use it's just best of breed that wins out. For me personally whatever does what I need and is the easiest to use with the most functionality is the app that gets the most use. Again here for my own use I do check gnome stuff out every so often but I eventually go back to kde. Not because of anything inherently with gnome but for me I simply prefer the kde desktop. Call it comfort from long years of use. I did start using gnome years ago but the first time I used a kde desktop I fell in love with it myself. I've preferred kde since. Gnome has come a long way since then and gtk and gnome 2 are huge leaps above the older stuff but it's not enough for me to switch. I keep looking though. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 20:51, Henri wrote: The two MAIN problems under gnome are certainly file management and...PRINTING Abiword has it's own printbox, so does galeon, so does gnumeric, so does ggv...can someone do something pretty about that ! You can't tell a new user to open an xterm and type lpr...and what if you want to print landscape ? Please read man lpr. That's not serious. That's a shame because there are really very good things in gnome panel (i love the two menus concept) , desktop (icons resizing) , control-center (really easier than kcontrol) and nautilus (image zoom with the mouse..) for ex. We need those two very important dialog boxes : printing and file selection. Hmm, interesting point. Let me check... Current development abiword and galeon have v. different print boxes to the older versions, but you're right, they're still not the same =). Galeon's is better, and has a landscape printing option (development abiword's doesn't, but then, for me printing doesn't work at all, so I guess that's still in progress :P). I don't have gnumeric. Current ggv doesn't appear to have a print dialog at all, the print document menu option just prints it. Which is a pain, I didn't want my test document printed...oh well :). Resizable icons - that's because GNOME has spiffy SVG support, hehe. I guess the KDE guys are gonna include this too, though. I think printing is supposed to be dealt with via the gnome-print package...current development abiword doesn't do GNOME integration, so maybe when they start working on that, printing will go through gnome-print and be standardised. I'm not sure where Galeon's print dialog comes from. But that's a good point, it would be a decent improvement...guess I'll have a chat with some GNOME people and see what's happening with it. -- adamw
