Re: [CREATE] Print, the last frontier

[Kai-Uwe Behrmann]

Am 18.08.10, 22:45 -0400 schrieb Yuval Levy:

IMHO as long as consumers/small office printers output is not at least
equivalent to that in Windows, open source operating systems don't stand a
chance to compete in the print arena.


The OpenPrinting people care about printing on linux, like handling a 
PPD data base, drivers, standardisation, the CPD and so on and might be 
more appropriate for your concerns:

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/openprinting

Of course they can do few about inconsitent PPDs delivered by a vendor I 
guess. Maybe the devices have support by a fre alternative?


kind regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
--
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www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org


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[CREATE] Print, the last frontier

[Yuval Levy]

Since there are talks of magazines, I'd like to make people on this list aware 
of a limitation I found when printing from LG application in Linux.

I don't print often, and when I do it is mostly boring office stuff.  But from 
time to time I like to print proofs of my photos.  I own two Brother printers: 
a laser HL-2070N and an all-in-one MFC-6490CW.  I went with the Brother brand 
after researching issues important to me such as Linux support [0].

Unfortunately I had to discover that the closed source drivers for Linux have 
more unfinished edges than those for Windows, and the bottom line is that the 
same document looks better printed from Windows than from Linux - no matter if 
it is a GoogleMap from the web; a spreadsheet; or my latest picture.

Things that annoy me particularly:
- the MFC-6490CW has a borderless mode.  When I print a picture from 
Photoshop/Windows, it works as advertised.  When I print a picture from 
GIMP/Kubuntu, there is consistently a thin white border on at least one edge.
- the UI to the driver is more consistent in Windows than in Kubuntu.  This is 
particularly nasty with the MFC-6490CW which has two paper trays, one of which 
I loaded with tabloid (11x17) paper.  It is frustrating to see Inkscape output 
a letter format (and only half of it) because some obscure settings are 
inaccessible in the driver.

I know that people here can't do much about closed source drivers.  
Unfortunately the last time I tried the open source drivers for these 
printers, the result where even worse (e.g. coarse dithering patterns).

Is it just me who did not research the products well enough before buying?  
Should I switch brand?

It would pain me - the scanner of the MFC-6490CW serves me well.  The other 
day I had a 300+ pages document to scan.  The automated document feeder and a 
small shell script controlling scanimage [1] and ImageMagick [2] did the trick 
much faster in Kubuntu than I could have done in Windows, and despite the less 
than optimal condition of the original papers, I only had six pages to repeat 
manually after quality control.

Is there something that we can do about this state of affair?  I mean, I tried 
to give feedback to Brother's support, and they were helpful assisting with 
usage of the drivers as they are, but they don't seem to be taking bug 
reports.

IMHO as long as consumers/small office printers output is not at least 
equivalent to that in Windows, open source operating systems don't stand a 
chance to compete in the print arena.

Yuv


[0] http://welcome.solutions.brother.com/bsc/public_s/id/linux/en/index.html
[1] http://www.sane-project.org/man/scanimage.1.html
[2] http://www.imagemagick.org/


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[CREATE] consensus constitency persistence

[Yuval Levy]

I love Camille's visuals.  All of them.  I have a slight preference for the 
first link.  Only slight.

Like a good bottle of Scotch, it's better half full than completely empty, and 
I would like to move forward on making it happen.

What is important to me is what Cyrille mentioned: *consensus*

And what Louis mentioned in the print/magazine context and which IMHO applies 
also to the web-presence, the conference, and anything else: *consistency* and 
*persistence*

Whoever takes the initiative first has my vote.  Things have been *discussed* 
long enough, it is time to *decide* and *implement*.

Can we get some form of *consensus* around Camille's visuals and live with 
them *consistently*, mostly unchanged for the next *five years*?

If the answer is yes, I herewith motion to adopt Camille's visual as the 
visual identity of everything LG for the next five years.

This should include LGM logo and identity.  I trust Camille to make sense of 
the mess of logos and websites that LGM had over the past five years and give 
us a web framework to live with for the next five.  The work and enthusiasm I 
have seen from him have convinced me, even if I never met him in person.

I am supportive of the work being done on the magazine too, even if I have 
little to contribute, sorry.  I'd love to see it regularly published, and at 
the same time I agree with Ale's that there need to be space for special 
editions outside the regular cycle.  But within the same template / design.  
What is important for me in this context is, again *consistency*.  Develop a 
template / layout and stick to it for a while for both regular and special 
editions.

If you need content for both web and magazine, ping me at @.ch and I'll try to free some time to contribute to your projects.  I can 
write up about digital photography in general and Hugin in particular. 

you have my support.
Yuv


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Gregory Pittman]

 I have to say I like the more "beefy" look of Camille's work. Also the 
use of vibrant colors, yet keeping the text parts highly legible.


Greg

On 08/18/2010 07:51 PM, Robert Martinez wrote:

Hello,

allow me to hop in here: some time ago I made a redesegin of the 
create page, but it didn't go online because neither jon nor I had the 
time to copy some stuff around on the server.

(it is just the current markup with new css + +images + @fontface)

  here is the html: http://mray.de/create/test.html
  here is a screenshot: http://mray.de/create/Screenshot.jpg

It misses quite some elements regarding the new content, but in terms 
of a new look I consider it to be a relevant option.


Supposed new stuff is added - what do you think?


Cheers,
Robert

On 08/18/2010 06:22 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

Hi all,

Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative 
peoples mailing list ;)


So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I 
keep on abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles 
and icons to let the eye focus on content.


If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG 
(made in Inkscape 0.47) files are here : 
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
Backgrounds are generated thought ImageSpace 
. Icons are a personal rework of 
the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream Charter and DejaVu Sans.


Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.

Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web 
pages in Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki 
or Mediawiki.


Please comment on content and design.
If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this 
discussion with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Robert Martinez]

Hello,

allow me to hop in here: some time ago I made a redesegin of the create 
page, but it didn't go online because neither jon nor I had the time to 
copy some stuff around on the server.

(it is just the current markup with new css + +images + @fontface)

  here is the html: http://mray.de/create/test.html
  here is a screenshot: http://mray.de/create/Screenshot.jpg

It misses quite some elements regarding the new content, but in terms of 
a new look I consider it to be a relevant option.


Supposed new stuff is added - what do you think?


Cheers,
Robert

On 08/18/2010 06:22 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

Hi all,

Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative 
peoples mailing list ;)


So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I 
keep on abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles 
and icons to let the eye focus on content.


If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made 
in Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
Backgrounds are generated thought ImageSpace 
. Icons are a personal rework of 
the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream Charter and DejaVu Sans.


Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.

Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web 
pages in Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki 
or Mediawiki.


Please comment on content and design.
If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this 
discussion with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.


Cheers,
-- yagraph


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 8/18/10, Camille Bissuel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
> mailing list ;)
>
> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

Just one minor design unrelated note: it's "people", not "peoples" :-)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Kai-Uwe Behrmann]

Am 18.08.10, 23:44 +0200 schrieb Craig Bradney:

On 8/18/10 10:49 PM, Udi Fuchs wrote:

Camille Bissuel gave a try:

So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

They are all beautiful. The first one (News) is the best.

There are a few tiny issues with usability:

1. It is hard to see that I'm in the 'News' tab. It needs a bit more contrast.

2. At first look, I missed the text "Don't miss..."



These rock!


... and even done without flash, looks wonderful.

kind regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
--
developing for colour management 
www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Craig Bradney]

 On 8/18/10 10:49 PM, Udi Fuchs wrote:
>> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
>> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
>> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
>> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png
> They are all beautiful. The first one (News) is the best.
>
> There are a few tiny issues with usability:
>
> 1. It is hard to see that I'm in the 'News' tab. It needs a bit more contrast.
>
> 2. At first look, I missed the text "Don't miss..."
>

These rock!

Craig
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Udi Fuchs]

> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

They are all beautiful. The first one (News) is the best.

There are a few tiny issues with usability:

1. It is hard to see that I'm in the 'News' tab. It needs a bit more contrast.

2. At first look, I missed the text "Don't miss..."

Udi
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 ginger coons 

>
> Nevertheless, LGMag#0 was a good kickstarter for a bigger "Libre Graphics
>> Magazine" project which can be closer to this notion of 'magazine', and
>> which can aim higher. Ginger, Ana and i are already discussing among
>> ourselves how this could work -- and we'll post here for your consideration
>> once we have a structured plan that we believe in.
>>
>>
> In fact, our outline (such as it is so far) can be seen here:
> http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Libre_Graphics_Magazine, on the wiki
> page that Jon started a couple days ago. We'll be posting more as we
> discuss, with some kind of concrete plan tomorrow.
>

Sorry I completely missed that one!

Can some good soul merge the content (whatever fits, in fact) of the one I
created this morning with the one Jon has done previously?

http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Ideas_for_a_LG_Magazine

Then simply delete the page I created. We don’t need 2 pages for this!

Sorry again !

Louis

>
> --
> ginger "all-lower-case" coons
> adaptstudio.ca
> 647.865.7757 (Toronto)
> 514.213.1318 (Montreal)
>
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 ricardo lafuente 

> Hai,
>
> No one here, i guess, did or would defend that anyone in the community
> would want to publish LibreGraphics-related materials shouldn't do so. Given
> that so few community-generated printed materials were made so far, having a
> serious effort to do something is naturally most welcome.
>
> I think many questions are getting tangled up in this discussion, so i'd
> like to focus on one: is there any particular reason why a
> LibreGraphics-related publication would have to be related to the "Libre
> Graphics Magazine" project, be it as a 'special issue' or whatever else?
>

Good question. In fact, the title of the thread was about the magazine...
Which obviously led to discuss this bearing in mind the "magazine"
paradigm...

>
> The reason i'm asking this is because my (personal) perception of what a
> magazine is implies a sense of persistence and continuity.


Exactly what I think too.


> For instance, i'd say that LGMag#0 was closer to a brochure (i hate the
> term, but hope you see the point) than a magazine; this was because of big
> time constraints and we couldn't afford to set a master plan that would set
> an identity and standard for the kind of longer-term project that a magazine
> is. The materials published by the Libre Graphics community so far --
> LGMag#0 included -- have mostly been one-off pieces created by different
> teams with distinct approaches and editorial decisions in mind, even if
> sharing the same goals.
>

Yes again.

>
> Nevertheless, LGMag#0 was a good kickstarter for a bigger "Libre Graphics
> Magazine" project which can be closer to this notion of 'magazine', and
> which can aim higher. Ginger, Ana and i are already discussing among
> ourselves how this could work -- and we'll post here for your consideration
> once we have a structured plan that we believe in.
>

Can’t wait to read more about this!

>
> In the same vein, my thoughts on the semi-decentralised approach that was
> proposed for LGMag:
>
> I think that the reason for the dearth of LG-related printed material so
> far is not lack of authorisation/permission, but of initiative. Letting
> people know that they can create their own LGMagazine is not what's going to
> make someone rush to publish all of a sudden. The antidote here is, perhaps,
> encouragement: we can and should encourage local initiatives to create and
> publish their own Libre Graphics materials, be they magazines, brochures,
> posters, and what have you, providing where possible the means to help them
> do so.
>

I guess you have in mind that we should here provide the links to the
downloadable files for the logo and a the graphic guidelines? Or would we
simply let people do what they want, how they want?

Somehow we’re looking for consistency? Ale was suggesting we have various
artistic approaches. I am not to keen with that idea. But again, it’s
arguable.

>
> That said, i see no reason (so far) why other such endeavours shouldn't be
> 'standalone' (being nonetheless endorsed by the Libre Graphics community)
> and why they should be instead attached to the LGMag project. I'd venture to
> say that having many parallel efforts would simply reflect and enrich the
> diversity that our community is known for -- and the reason why many of us
> love it.


Good.

Cheers !

Louis

>
>
> On 08/18/2010 01:55 PM, Jon Nordby wrote:
>
>> Ale, if you want to create a magazine issue at or for froscamp, I'd
>> say go for it!
>>
>> While I completely agree that one should aim for periodic releases,
>> the important thing is to actually create issues of the magazine and
>> get them out to people!
>>
>> And please, do keep your ideas and thoughts coming.
>>
>>
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[ginger coons]

> Nevertheless, LGMag#0 was a good kickstarter for a bigger "Libre Graphics
> Magazine" project which can be closer to this notion of 'magazine', and
> which can aim higher. Ginger, Ana and i are already discussing among
> ourselves how this could work -- and we'll post here for your consideration
> once we have a structured plan that we believe in.
>
>
In fact, our outline (such as it is so far) can be seen here:
http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Libre_Graphics_Magazine, on the wiki page
that Jon started a couple days ago. We'll be posting more as we discuss,
with some kind of concrete plan tomorrow.

-- 
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adaptstudio.ca
647.865.7757 (Toronto)
514.213.1318 (Montreal)
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 Camille Bissuel 

> Hi all,
>
> Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
> mailing list ;)
>
> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png
>
> It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I keep on
> abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles and icons to let
> the eye focus on content.
>
> If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made in
> Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
> Backgrounds are generated thought 
> ImageSpace.
> Icons are a personal rework of the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream
> Charter and DejaVu Sans.
>
> Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.
>
> Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web pages in
> Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki or Mediawiki.
>
> Please comment on content and design.
>

Looks great !

Bravo !

Louis

> If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this discussion
> with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.
>
> Cheers,
> -- yagraph
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Hi all,

Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
mailing list ;)

So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I keep on
abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles and icons to let
the eye focus on content.

If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made in
Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
Backgrounds are generated thought
ImageSpace.
Icons are a personal rework of the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream
Charter and DejaVu Sans.

Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.

Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web pages in
Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki or Mediawiki.

Please comment on content and design.
If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this discussion
with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.

Cheers,
-- yagraph
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Gregory Pittman]

On 08/18/2010 09:58 AM, Louis Desjardins wrote:

2010/8/18 Jon Nordby mailto:jono...@gmail.com>>

Ale, if you want to create a magazine issue at or for froscamp, I'd
say go for it!

While I completely agree that one should aim for periodic releases,
the important thing is to actually create issues of the magazine and
get them out to people!

And please, do keep your ideas and thoughts coming.


Agree! :)


As somewhat of an outsider, in that I'm not a developer, or designer, or 
artist (and consequently my opinions may carry no weight with any of the 
aforementioned) which does perhaps lead to some objectivity in this:


- I don't know that the LGM Board needs to be too tightly overseeing all 
activities that the various interested persons and groups might have, 
such as magazines, the direction that the various graphics projects 
might take, and so on. So there isn't any approval process that someone 
has to go through to make some publication, and I don't see that some 
need to be "official" publications in any way.


- It's better to have various individuals and groups doing what they can 
to show the possibilities of open source applications, with the LGM 
Board, or the Create list participants cheering them on, and not feeling 
that some endorsement is necessary.


- And it won't hurt to also be able to show that we can work together or 
individually in a friendly cooperative, encouraging way as another plus 
for open source. Hopefully it's not as hard as herding cats or passing 
legislation.


Greg
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[ricardo lafuente]

Hai,

No one here, i guess, did or would defend that anyone in the community 
would want to publish LibreGraphics-related materials shouldn't do so. 
Given that so few community-generated printed materials were made so 
far, having a serious effort to do something is naturally most welcome.


I think many questions are getting tangled up in this discussion, so i'd 
like to focus on one: is there any particular reason why a 
LibreGraphics-related publication would have to be related to the "Libre 
Graphics Magazine" project, be it as a 'special issue' or whatever else?


The reason i'm asking this is because my (personal) perception of what a 
magazine is implies a sense of persistence and continuity. For instance, 
i'd say that LGMag#0 was closer to a brochure (i hate the term, but hope 
you see the point) than a magazine; this was because of big time 
constraints and we couldn't afford to set a master plan that would set 
an identity and standard for the kind of longer-term project that a 
magazine is. The materials published by the Libre Graphics community so 
far -- LGMag#0 included -- have mostly been one-off pieces created by 
different teams with distinct approaches and editorial decisions in 
mind, even if sharing the same goals.


Nevertheless, LGMag#0 was a good kickstarter for a bigger "Libre 
Graphics Magazine" project which can be closer to this notion of 
'magazine', and which can aim higher. Ginger, Ana and i are already 
discussing among ourselves how this could work -- and we'll post here 
for your consideration once we have a structured plan that we believe in.


In the same vein, my thoughts on the semi-decentralised approach that 
was proposed for LGMag:


I think that the reason for the dearth of LG-related printed material so 
far is not lack of authorisation/permission, but of initiative. Letting 
people know that they can create their own LGMagazine is not what's 
going to make someone rush to publish all of a sudden. The antidote here 
is, perhaps, encouragement: we can and should encourage local 
initiatives to create and publish their own Libre Graphics materials, be 
they magazines, brochures, posters, and what have you, providing where 
possible the means to help them do so.


That said, i see no reason (so far) why other such endeavours shouldn't 
be 'standalone' (being nonetheless endorsed by the Libre Graphics 
community) and why they should be instead attached to the LGMag project. 
I'd venture to say that having many parallel efforts would simply 
reflect and enrich the diversity that our community is known for -- and 
the reason why many of us love it.


On 08/18/2010 01:55 PM, Jon Nordby wrote:

Ale, if you want to create a magazine issue at or for froscamp, I'd
say go for it!

While I completely agree that one should aim for periodic releases,
the important thing is to actually create issues of the magazine and
get them out to people!

And please, do keep your ideas and thoughts coming.



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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 Jon Nordby 

> Ale, if you want to create a magazine issue at or for froscamp, I'd
> say go for it!
>
> While I completely agree that one should aim for periodic releases,
> the important thing is to actually create issues of the magazine and
> get them out to people!
>
> And please, do keep your ideas and thoughts coming.
>

Agree! :)

http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Ideas_for_a_LG_Magazine

Louis

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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Jon Nordby]

Ale, if you want to create a magazine issue at or for froscamp, I'd
say go for it!

While I completely agree that one should aim for periodic releases,
the important thing is to actually create issues of the magazine and
get them out to people!

And please, do keep your ideas and thoughts coming.

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Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 Cyrille Berger 

> Hi
>
> On Wednesday 18 August 2010, a.l.e wrote:
> > i don't really agree with the points louis mentioned, but i don't think
> > that i want to argue about it any more.
>
> It is sad that you take it like that. In my opinion there are two types of
> projects that where discussed, recently.
>
> The first type is project that affect all of us, if you want to start an
> association, website, that is supposed to represent and gather free
> graphics
> open source software, then you need to gather consensus around your
> project.
>

Right.

>
> The second type, for instance the magazine, it is exactly like an open
> source
> project, it is the one who do the work that decide, Louis (or I, or any
> other)
> can have an opinion and give some advice. But the people who will do the
> work
> are free to ignore it.
>

Completely agree.

Feel free to ignore my advice, please! :)

Louis

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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 a.l.e 

> buondì,
>
>
> i answer to my own mail, and talk about the form of the of the
> three answers i've read this morning.
> (btw, thank for your answers!)
>
> in my eyes they clearly show one of the biggest problems of this list
> (sorry, alexandre, that i have to take your mail as a negative
> example...).
>
> when discussing about ideas, i'm convinced that we should take the time
> to formulate our visions and positions in an "organic" way. dissecting
> and answering point by point the arguments of another person will --
> most of the time -- tear the thread apart, increase the contransts and
> move the discussion to focus on many tiny details most of which are not
> relevant at all to the subject being discussed.
> this is what happened when discussing about the lgm venue, about the LG
> association and about the magazine.
>

>
> don't get me wrong, inline quoting is very helpful when discussing
> technical issues. but the threads from the last few months have clearly
> shown to me that this list tends to develop lengthy mail threads which
> scare away the best contributors. and even the not so good one as i am,
> now are gone.
>
> i won't even talk about the value of replying with  a "+1" or "-1" in a
> discussion about which direction should a magazine take.
>
>
> as i wrote, i won't stop working for the LGM and other nice LG
> activities but -- as long as this list stays as it is -- don't expect
> any innovative contribution from my side.
>

I completely don’t understand why you say that. What’s so wrong with the
discussion about the magazine? Do you really believe we are so far apart
that the magazine cannot even live? I don’t support this dramatic
conclusion. What prevents you to publish a Special Edition in phase with
your event in Switzerland? In other words, what prevents "innovative
contribution" here?

Just do it. Stop talking about it. Once it will be done, it will be there
for all to see. If it’s good, it’s good and we’ll all be happy. To the 2
points I’ve discussed earlier, I add this third one: feasibility.

You are bringing up valuable points and ideas. We discuss them. I don’t see
the problem. We’re only trying to make things happen. We have to deal with
some very specific things. I am only suggesting some possible ways. There
are certainly others.

In order for me (and for anyone, me, you, anyone) to help locally find a
sponsor for printing something, we have to come up with a well-defined
project. We cannot ask for sponsorship based on approximations. There is no
way to discuss about money without telling the amount. A quote has to come
into play so we can discuss whether the sponsorship is feasible or not. We
need the page size, the number of pages, the inks, the quantity, the
binding. This is completely real. For a PDF we would not have those specs in
the way but for printing, yes.

Then, if we want to allow people to print for themselves, we need to think
ahead, not after. What page size will be the most convenient, and are we
going or not to print in color, how are we going to bind this, etc.

And if we are to allow printing in Europe and in the Americas and elsewhere
in the world we need to be aware of the paper sizes in those large areas. We
may need to adapt the design. It’s doable but it has to be thought on the
first place. No clumsy redesign. In a layout, centimeters and millimiters
are important!

All this to say that if I insist so much on some details it’s because there
is simply no way to get away without considering them.

Re-reading what I wrote and what the very few others who participated so far
in the discussion wrote, I just don’t see what is so wrong with this
discussion!

Am I blind? What am I missing?

Cheers!

Louis




>
> have a nice day!
> a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Cyrille Berger]

Hi

On Wednesday 18 August 2010, a.l.e wrote:
> i don't really agree with the points louis mentioned, but i don't think
> that i want to argue about it any more.

It is sad that you take it like that. In my opinion there are two types of 
projects that where discussed, recently.

The first type is project that affect all of us, if you want to start an 
association, website, that is supposed to represent and gather free graphics 
open source software, then you need to gather consensus around your project.

The second type, for instance the magazine, it is exactly like an open source 
project, it is the one who do the work that decide, Louis (or I, or any other) 
can have an opinion and give some advice. But the people who will do the work 
are free to ignore it.

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[a.l.e]

buondì,


i answer to my own mail, and talk about the form of the of the
three answers i've read this morning.
(btw, thank for your answers!)

in my eyes they clearly show one of the biggest problems of this list
(sorry, alexandre, that i have to take your mail as a negative
example...).

when discussing about ideas, i'm convinced that we should take the time
to formulate our visions and positions in an "organic" way. dissecting
and answering point by point the arguments of another person will --
most of the time -- tear the thread apart, increase the contransts and
move the discussion to focus on many tiny details most of which are not
relevant at all to the subject being discussed.
this is what happened when discussing about the lgm venue, about the LG
association and about the magazine.


don't get me wrong, inline quoting is very helpful when discussing
technical issues. but the threads from the last few months have clearly
shown to me that this list tends to develop lengthy mail threads which
scare away the best contributors. and even the not so good one as i am,
now are gone.

i won't even talk about the value of replying with  a "+1" or "-1" in a
discussion about which direction should a magazine take.


as i wrote, i won't stop working for the LGM and other nice LG
activities but -- as long as this list stays as it is -- don't expect
any innovative contribution from my side.


have a nice day!
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] LG magazine #1::∞

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/17 Alexandre Prokoudine 

> On 8/17/10, Louis Desjardins wrote:
>
> >> - as far as i am concerned, you and ana are very welcome to create
> >>  further issues of the lgmag! at the same time, i'd also like to see
> >>  other crews creating "their" lgmag!
> >
> > But Ale, that "their" you put here... doesn’t it defeat the idea of
> > gathering and joining forces around one project?
>
> King Crimson has been extremely successful having up to four
> simultaneous touring spin-offs in 2000s. You can't kill a project that
> diversifies itself.
>

Dear Alexandre !

My point is about being consistent and persistent.

So far we have produced a LGM brochure in 2007 and a LGM brochure in 2010.

And we do have a Sponsors’ document as a PDF file that may have been printed
in a few copies.

We have also been discussing about plans for a magazine since 2007 and maybe
back in 2006, I don’t recall. You and I and a few others have been
discussing this with much enthusiasm. I certainly don’t mean myselfl to kill
anyone’s enthusiasm! I think enthusiasm is a big human driver.

But let’s look at what we have achieved. The field is open. It has been open
since ever and will be open for ever and ever. There are absolutely no
restrictions whatsoever about publishing anything with free software. We are
all involved at various levels in the LGM projects, including the possibilty
to participate into a periodical publication.

Maybe I simply missed the point a.l.e was bringing up. Maybe I just didn’t
understand what he meant.

Again, my own point here is about being *persistent* (which is what
periodicity is all about and I suggest we start with a quarterly, which I
think is a pretty decent goal in itlself and will bring us hours of fun) and
*consistent* in the mean of a well designed container with an interesting
content. To tie those 2 goals together, the consistency of the design from
one issue to the other will help create reading expectations and habits and
will thus serve well the persistence of our magazine

Let me just add to this that if we are to prove anything to the outside
world, we could well start by putting together such a publication and do it,
keep the publication rythm and let know all the major Linux publications
that it’s feasible with F/LOSS tools. So far, when I go to the magazine
stand, I see lots of Linux publications and I believe that so far none of
them is made with Scribus, for instance. In 2007 I honestly thought that the
initiative would have been a kick-off start to further publications but in
fact in was not and we waited 3 years to finally get another one... This is
not what one would call persistent nor consistent, to say the least! :)

I am a dreamer, you all know that. But to make dreams come true, we have to
put our hands at work.

I don’t mean to shut anyone’s enthusiasm. Quite the opposite. I only think
it’s enough to concentrate on publishing with regularity so people can
expect the next one in a predictable time.

Issue -0 = May 2007 > LGM 2
Issue 0 = May 2010 > LGM 5
Issue 1 = August 2010 > put your event here
Issue 2 = November 2010 > put your event here
Issue 3 = February 2011 > put your event here
Issue 4 = May 2011 > LGM 6

With such a publishing tempo, we could show up to 6 issues of what the
community can publish using tools crafted by the community before LGM 2011
starts. WOW ! I would love to put that on the table. What a
statement. What a statement!

Ah! And we need a pagination plan... I suggest we start with 16 pages of
magazine size but it’s only a suggestion... for the sake of the discussion.
I will not put here again the printing specs for magazines but when we get
there, just ask me! :)

Now, if one of those issues falls into the time frame of any LG event, it’s
of course a good thing to have some of the contents in phase with this
event. And if we are VERY strong at keeping that pace, then we can introduce
here and there some Special Edition of 4 or 8 pages (or more — don’t get me
wrong on numbers, it’s only for the sake of the discussion) aimed at this
Special event and it will only add up to the regular publications.

Playing around with the graphic design of our magazine — that is, let every
artist come with its own approach — in not the way to go in my view. This
would be quite noisy and disturbing, in fact. The content could well show
the work of artists using F/LOSS but the container should remain consistent
for all the reasons above. LG Mag Logo should not change and the overall
layout should be consistent as well, from issue to issue. This doesn’t mean
the layout cannot evolve. But this certainly means that when you open the
pages of the next issue, you feel at home.

Anyway. I am profoundly sorry that my comments brought a.l.e and maybe you
too to a conclusion that was never on my mind and not my intention at all.
Long live to the LG magazine!

We need strong design and strong typography (no holes, nice typographic
grey, good contrasts between titles