Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[mrdocs]

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 17:04:12 Louis Desjardins wrote:
> 2010/6/9 Hong Phuc Dang 
> 
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > @Tor: thank you very much for raising the concern. I agree that
> > political part plays a very important role in any international
> > conferences.
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> One question has to be explicitely addressed here.
> 
> How a country deals with software patents is of great interest to
> developers. This is one big reason for quite a few developers to
> explicitely exclude the United States of America from being a host for
> LGM. Basically, people don’t want to get into judiciary issues while
> participating is such a conference.
> 
> We have to find out just how friendly (or how threatening) the LGM host
> country is to FLOSS in general and to FLOSS developers in particular.
> 
> Back in May 2007, we had a discussion on that issue in the Create Mailing
> List.
> 
> Here is an excerpt of one exchange between Alexandre Prokoudine and Dave
> Crossland.
> 
> [ AP ] giving proprietary guys even a tiny chance to sue one of
> 
> > our developers should never occur.
> 
> [ DC ] All developers in the USA are under constant threat of
> 
> > patent violation suits for all code they write. Developing free code
> > to read/write proprietary file formats has an additional risk of
> > breaking the 'technical protection measures' part of the DMCA.
> 
> Let’s feed that thread with all relevant information.
> 
> Louis

Excellent question.

From my knowledge, Vietnam does not abide by any of the patents related to 
software which are patented in the US. This needs more qualification, but I am 
certain it is "developer friendly".

I would like to add that as a "Westerner", I have had the chance to visit 
Vietnam in 2008 for nearly a month and never felt in any way threatened or 
surveilled by anyone. 

To the contrary, I found people there very friendly and the visa process 
straightforward and above board. While residents in Vietnam may not have the 
same kinds of freedoms we enjoy, one has the sense the government is trying to 
make the country accessible to outsiders and is looking to attract investment 
and qualified immigrants. For example, one can get a 1 year residency visa for 
business for $100 USD and relatively simple forms.

As a visitor, you should also be aware crimes against foreigners are punished 
severely, with penalties sometimes doubled when committed against foreigners.

My concerns are less political then practical, but also knowing thqt
FOSSASIA is a much larger scale event, then most of these can or have
been be solved.

Practical issues, with some comments from my experience:

Visas - Fairly straightforward for the visitor. In some cases, obtained
on the spot on arrival if there is a sponsoring organization recognized
by the government. Visas need to be paid in USD or VN Dong.

Travel - Vietnam is a long flight from both North America and Western
Europe. There are cost issues for sure.

Bandwidth - Internet access is not available everywhere in the same way
we are used to in NA and Western Europe. That said, in one hotel I
stayed in it was solid and usable - with no censoring or blocking. I
could always securely connect back home at will. Skype and ssh always worked.

Timing - Our usual May long weekend, is _not_ an ideal time to be there.
October or November are much preferred, as the climate is easier for
those of us not used to sub-tropic climate. I was there from October to
the middle of November and it was very pleasant.

While none of us are political scientists, I think it is safe to argue
we would be better off bringing our brand of "freedom" than not to an
area of the world where the values we cherish with respect to software
freedom and sharing of creative works will have, I am confident, a
receptive audience.

Moreover, it would be sad if we were to deny this opportunity of sharing in 
both directions - especially when we have a potential host, serious in their
dedication to the same ideals we have.

Just my 0.02.
Peter
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[a.l.e]

hi tor,

> > so maybe we can
> > indirectly help people in Vietnam (and other countries) by not
> > isolating them from the rest of the world, but by helping to open
> > the world for them?
> 
> That it indeed what I hope. I just don't know how well that works, and
> would love to hear some real expert opinion.

i guess we had many qualified opinions in this list.

we had people from vietnam, western people living in vietnam, western people 
living in asia and having been at floss events in vietnam, western people 
having researched links to high quality reports on human rights reports, 
official reports on the state of the country, western people having no clue, 
western specialists on human rights in the region around vietnam...

none of them told us that we should avoid going to vietnam and most of them 
gave us useful information which will help us in jugding whether the next LGM 
should take place in vietnam or not.


now, can we freeze this thread? (with the exception of very specific questions, 
which have a real chance to be answered in this context).


if somebody feels that he or she is still missing some important facts he is 
welcome to do some research and share the results in this thread!
in your specific case, tor, you are welcome to look for a real expert, ask him 
or her and post his/her report in here.


ciao
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> so maybe we can
> indirectly help people in Vietnam (and other countries) by not isolating
> them from the rest of the world, but by helping to open the world for
> them?

That it indeed what I hope. I just don't know how well that works, and
would love to hear some real expert opinion.

--tml
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Jan Claeys]

Op woensdag 16-06-2010 om 01:42 uur [tijdzone +0300], schreef Tor
Lillqvist:
> But if one avoids vague generic terms like "Freedom" or loaded words
> like "Liberation", what about specific concepts like freedom of the
> press, freedom to criticize your government and advocating its
> *peaceful* change, freedom to form independent labour unions, freely
> elected parliaments; Are such freedoms also just cultural imperialism
> in your opinion?

Some people consider parliaments & elections as implemented in most
"Western" countries to be undemocratic too; think about how almost all
elections contain several filters to "weed out" small or unknown or
party-independent or financially-weak candidates before and/or after the
elections take place...


Now, it seems like the Vietnamese government doesn't like to hear from
people who disagree with them, and doesn't treat people who voice such
dissident opinions very well.  OTOH it also seems like that has somewhat
improved during recent years, at least partially because of economic
reasons and the related international political influences.

More international contact seems to help levelling differences between
countries (and that works both ways, to some degree), so maybe we can
indirectly help people in Vietnam (and other countries) by not isolating
them from the rest of the world, but by helping to open the world for
them?


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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> Liberation and Freedom - these words were/are used
> by the Japanese, French, Americans ... justifying invasions and war
> and most Asian countries have experienced this.

But if one avoids vague generic terms like "Freedom" or loaded words
like "Liberation", what about specific concepts like freedom of the
press, freedom to criticize your government and advocating its
*peaceful* change, freedom to form independent labour unions, freely
elected parliaments; Are such freedoms also just cultural imperialism
in your opinion?

> Before Vietnam joined the WTO, the US demanded a
> stricter implementation of copyright policies.

So to the "pirate" crowd, Vietnam is as evil as the US then?

> Nevertheless copyright and patents restriction are usually unknown

And, presumably, also the terms of FOSS licenses are usually then ignored, too?

--tml
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Mario Behling]

Hi,

wow! A huge amount of questions. So, this email became a bit longer as well..

As someone, who has been around in Asia for several years -
Afghanistan, China, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam - I can just say: Come over
and have a look. It is very difficult to answer all your concerns
precisely. Freedom - it is a vast topic. As a "bynote" I feel much
more restricted in Europe than in most Asian countries.

The question I see: Is Vietnam the right place to do an LGM now? I
want to see Free Software and Openess growing and it is the best to do
this by getting in touch directly.

Having seen and having organized events throughout Vietnam and Asia
and seeing the enthusiasm and commitment for LGM I am sure we can put
together a great LGM in Vietnam, also considering the support of this
bid locally.

What we need to focus on, if Vietnam becomes the host: How can the
event in Vietnam help to maximize our efforts to join up with Asian
contributors, rather than just getting the existing community to an
exciting location? I think the chances to achieve this are pretty
good.

Besides ideas Hong Phuc mentioned in her talk at LGM, I see that it
would be very helpful to involve community members, who are already
active in the region. I see that there is a good momentum to link up
with the local communities in Vietnam, China, Cambodia, Thailand,
Laos, Korea, Japan... We have a lot of Open Source designers in
Thailand as seen a couple of weeks ago at MekongICT in Chiang Mai.
Linking up with people spontaneously on the net requires quite some
effort. Bringing people together around an event like LGM offers more
chance of success and is more fun.

There are networks of the community that exist in Asia already. Let's
connect with these networks at LGM and let's feel and see how things
are. We also need to understand that "Western concepts" that to a
large extent go back to the idea of the Greek democracy and the French
revolution do not always "translate" to the exact same meaning in
Asia, where we have a different historic background. This might be the
reason why some Vietnamese might not understand, when you ask them
about Human Rights. Liberation and Freedom - these words were/are used
by the Japanese, French, Americans ... justifying invasions and war
and most Asian countries have experienced this. Please be aware that
words you are using in a Western context might transfer into different
meanings or even several different meanings in languages that are not
closely related to ours.

There are many people in Asia who want to work together with us. So
many people are excited about international sharing and collaboration.
So many people share our goals (even though they might use a different
wording their actions show that we are in line). We have the chance to
make this event possible in Vietnam and to bring this world together.

I would be extremely - extremely - surprised, if anyone would have
his/her laptop searched at the airport and followed by security during
the whole trip (I wonder if they have facilities and staff that speaks
English, French, Portuguese, German.. to do this at all). LGM does not
plan to overthrow the Vietnamese government by organizing a human
rights event (again the wording and justifications of foreigners for
involving into local politics). So, I would not believe there would be
a problem with the event at all.

About FOSS - as part of a EU funded project I organized FOSS Bridge
(http://fossbridge.org) 2007/2008 in Vietnam. Vietnam has a strong
Open Source policy. Before Vietnam joined the WTO, the US demanded a
stricter implementation of copyright policies. Vietnam agreed to that.
In the following years the country decided in 2003/2004 to switch its
IT infrastructure to Free and Open Source Software in order to comply.
Nevertheless copyright and patents restriction are usually unknown
around IT users (you can get anything).

In my experience the government would like to see much more Open
Source implemented, however, it is often difficult to find qualified
people. LGM can help to push knowledge around Free Software. Leading
to the event, I can imagine to set up initiatives for translating
books, founding students groups and more. Things will happen anyways,
but LGM in Vietnam would give all this a fantastic push in the region.

As someone living in Vietnam, I would be happy to tell you more about
life there or to put you in touch with other people. I know Serge
Stinckwich for example from France who lives currently in Hanoi (put
him in CC). I would also vouche to involve other local community
organizers on a kind of advisory board, e.g. Arthit Suriyawongkul from
Thailand, the Khmer-OS makers from Cambodia and people from Singapore
like Preetam Rai who supports Barcamps throughout the region. Of
course Andy Fitzsimon and Jon Phillips are already involved and work
in the region.

So, I am curious to see the outcome of this discussion. Please get in
touch with me, if I can help in any way.

All the bes

Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[ricardo lafuente]

Wonderful way to wrap the issues up. +1

On 06/14/2010 07:09 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:

My 2k on holding LGM in Vietnam:

LGM embraces and promotes the open source model.
But an open source model of government doesn't exist anywhere on earth.
Compromise will happen no matter our destination.
Let's be who we are anywhere we go.

I'd love to see even a small part of Vietnam.
And there's a lot happening there right now.
We can be a part of what's to come.
Let's go.

- Susan




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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Susan Spencer]

My 2k on holding LGM in Vietnam:

LGM embraces and promotes the open source model.
But an open source model of government doesn't exist anywhere on earth.
Compromise will happen no matter our destination.
Let's be who we are anywhere we go.

I'd love to see even a small part of Vietnam.
And there's a lot happening there right now.
We can be a part of what's to come.
Let's go.

- Susan
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Femke Snelting]

Dear Hong Phuc,

Thank you very much for your proposal to host LGM in Vietnam. Your proposal on 
the wiki looks considered and well thought through. I hope you are able to see 
this thread as a -- maybe clumsy -- attempt to relate to a country none of us 
actually knows much about.

As you kindly reminded us: you are cordially inviting us as a Vietnamese 
citizen writing from Vietnam. As a community, we need to trust our host to help 
understand the challenges we might face in taking this offer. We should 
definetely discuss the pros- and cons of having LGM 2011 in Vietnam, but let's 
look for a constructive discussion in relation to things we know about: what 
the meeting needs to be.

best,


Femke
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Kai-Uwe Behrmann]

Am 14.06.10, 17:35 +0300 schrieb Tor Lillqvist:

I really wish for some advice from some well-known organisation like
Amnesty, or Reporters Without Borders.


I meant advice whether it does more harm or good, or is irrelevant, to
the local freedoms and rights to have an event like the LGM there...
not general travel advice / advisories.


I do not know if thats political enough for your taste, but 
if you could organise a meaningful Dow Chemical and Monsanto money 
transfere to the possibly million of Agent Orange[1] deaths, disabilities 
and their families, that would certainly be of more help to vietnam people 
then harm.



kind regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
--
developing for colour management 
www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Dave Neary]

Hi,

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> I think I've been dangerously kind for the last week or so. It's time
> for the bastard.

It's never time for the bastard. There's no cause for nastiness.
Politely say what you mean, then stop.

Dave.

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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

>> I really wish for some advice from some well-known organisation like
>> Amnesty, or Reporters Without Borders.

I meant advice whether it does more harm or good, or is irrelevant, to
the local freedoms and rights to have an event like the LGM there...
not general travel advice / advisories.

--tml
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/6/14 Tor Lillqvist 

[snip]

> Could well be. Still, it can also be used as a propaganda showcase by
> the government.
>
> But anyway, my intent is not to stop LGM from being held in Vietnam. I
> just want to raise the awareness of the fact that it *is* a
> single-party state that isn't too hot on "freedom as in speech".
>
> I really wish for some advice from some well-known organisation like
> Amnesty, or Reporters Without Borders.
>

*Official Warnings when travelling to Vietnam*
[http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/report_rapport-eng.asp?id=316000,
Canada]
[
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/conseils-aux-voyageurs_909/pays_12191/vietnam_12310/index.html,
France]
[
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/asia-oceania/vietnam,
UK]
[http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1060.html, USA]

*Health Issues*
[http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/travel/asia/vietnam.shtml, Vaccine]

* Reporters Without Borders*
[
http://en.rsf.org/spip.php?page=recherche&lang=en&recherche=vietnam&image.x=40&image.y=1&image=>>,
Reporter Without Borders]
*
Amnesty International*
[http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/viet-nam, Amnesty]

Louis


>
> --tml
>
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[helen varley jamieson]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/viet-nam/report-2009

http://en.rsf.org/viet-nam.html

I really wish for some advice from some well-known organisation like
Amnesty, or Reporters Without Borders.

--tml
   


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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[agnez..]

On 06/14/10 15:22, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

usually I would advise against, but I am not an expert on Vietnam)
 

I think I've been dangerously kind for the last week or so. It's time
for the bastard.

We don't need opinion of a person who is not an expert in Vietnam. Any
person who tries to provide insight while having none whatsoever does
not deserve attention.

Agnez, thank you for trying to be helpful, but the person you spoke
with was of little to no help.

   

ok, if you think so.
she is an expert on Thailand and Nepal, best i could find..
greetings
agenz
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> How is hosting the LGM in Vietnam forcing anyone attending the LGM to
> ignore the human rights violations of the Vietnamese government?

Maybe because being too open and vocal in one's ciritique of such
violations might mean less chance to get a visa?

> They always laugh with our 'superior' track record of human
> rights. For them Western democracies are not innocent at all. Maybe in
> their own country, but not in the world abroad.

Who said any country is without faults? Responding to criticism with
"you are not perfect either, so shut up" is not a useful approach.
Let's talk about Vietnam in this thread, and other countries, when
necessary, in other threads, please.

Note that we are talking about very basic human rights and freedoms
here. Principles that as far as I know all countries, at least those
who have joined the UN, accept and claim to support. Free speech. Open
and fair elections. Freedom to form political organisations. Right to
a fair trial. Etc.

> I agree with Cyrille, that hosting the LGM in Vietnam rather promotes
> freedom, than supports human rights violations.

Could well be. Still, it can also be used as a propaganda showcase by
the government.

But anyway, my intent is not to stop LGM from being held in Vietnam. I
just want to raise the awareness of the fact that it *is* a
single-party state that isn't too hot on "freedom as in speech".

I really wish for some advice from some well-known organisation like
Amnesty, or Reporters Without Borders.

--tml
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 6/14/10, Agnez wrote:

> usually I would advise against, but I am not an expert on Vietnam)

I think I've been dangerously kind for the last week or so. It's time
for the bastard.

We don't need opinion of a person who is not an expert in Vietnam. Any
person who tries to provide insight while having none whatsoever does
not deserve attention.

Agnez, thank you for trying to be helpful, but the person you spoke
with was of little to no help.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 6/14/10, Agnez wrote:

> I talked to Vietnamese last week who do FOSS events, but they don't have
> a clue about human rights

You know, this phrase has at least two meanings, one of them quite scary :)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[agnez..]

Hi,
I had the chance for a brief chat with this human rights expert I know. 
Hereunder her comments

greetings
agnez

- People's computers might be checked at immigration, it has happened 
but not often. Just make sure you don't have anything sensitive in 
obvious places.


- Go on tourist visa, don't say you come for a conference. Those things 
are always way too complicated in these countries, it would only create 
more trouble (but then don't take my word for it, discuss it though, 
usually I would advise against, but I am not an expert on Vietnam)


- Whether FOSS is not accepted by gvnmt, well, they can't really do 
anything against it can they? as, it's not copyrighted .. or is it not 
that simple?


- discussing things openly, well it really depends on what you are 
discussing. if you are discussing about the right to access on 
information and it is mostly framed in terms of software I don't see a 
problem,
if you widen your discussion to civil and political rights, I don't 
think Vietnam is a good choice. You should count on Intelligence 
attending your meeting, and then consider whether that will jeopardize 
the Vietnamese participants, and whether that means you cannot have 
certain discussions that otherwise you would


- You should ask the Vietnamese participants what they think but they 
may not be fully aware of the possible consequences. they organized 
already other FOSS meetings, but were there foreigners who are concerned 
about human rights?

Vietnamese authorities are very wary of foreigners with political agendas
I talked to Vietnamese last week who do FOSS events, but they don't have 
a clue about human rights


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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Jan Claeys]

Op donderdag 10-06-2010 om 04:52 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Stani:
> Note that Belgium was condemned
> unanimously by human right groups for its ban on full-face veils. 

That's funny, as such a ban doesn't exist.
(At least not yet.)


-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Jan Claeys]

Op donderdag 10-06-2010 om 05:36 uur [tijdzone +0400], schreef Alexandre
Prokoudine:
> I'm afraid that you seem to be seriously underestimating the backstage
> part of the conference. We have IRC for talking. We need face2face for
> *decisions*. 

Not only for decisions, it also accelerates discussions because of the
significantly lower latency between question & response, proposal &
comments, etc.


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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[helen varley jamieson]

i have participated in theatre festivals all over the world including 
countries with dodgy human rights records such as serbia & cuba. i don't 
believe that by visiting & participating in such events i am condoning, 
supporting or agreeing with the actions of the government of that 
country. rather, it's a unique & privileged way to learn about such 
countries, governments & peoples - not as a tourist, who generally only 
sees what the government wants you to see, but from a position of 
engagement with the local population.


it's my experience that festival & conference contact like this is 
really important for people inside such countries (for whom travel 
outside is often difficult or impossible), & really important for "us" 
to get a better understanding of situations & recognise the difference 
between government & people, & perhaps to support freedom struggles in 
significant ways that we'd never have known about without going there.


i've said "such countries" & "us" but it's not really what i want to say 
- it isn't a divided situation but a continuum. there isn't a government 
in the world that doesn't have some sort of blood on its hands (we have 
human rights abuses in new zealand too: http://october15thsolidarity.info/)


it's definitely important to be aware of human rights issues & not to 
avoid discussion of them, but i would only boycott a country if the 
people within that country were saying that is the best thing to do.


my 2 cents worth ...

h : )

How is hosting the LGM in Vietnam forcing anyone attending the LGM to
ignore the human rights violations of the Vietnamese government? Maybe
you'll start reading about it and become more conscious of it. I have
had many exchange contacts with artist activists from non-western
countries. They always laugh with our 'superior' track record of human
rights. For them Western democracies are not innocent at all. Maybe in
their own country, but not in the world abroad.

For me free software is not about judging governments in the first
place, but above all about building communities. I think it would be
rude to exclude the Vietnamese or Asian communities from hosting the
LGM. As Dang Hong Phuc noticed the Asian community is not very present
in the Free Software movement, although they like to take part. We are
not going to change that from our comfortable broadband connections
remotely. Refusing them to bridge this gap, is not very ethical
either.

I agree with Cyrille, that hosting the LGM in Vietnam rather promotes
freedom, than supports human rights violations.
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Gregory Pittman]

Aside from the philosophical/political elements, we might also want to 
see if we can find information about some of the core technical issues 
that will be of great importance to attendees...


Do we know that the power grid is dependable where the site is being 
proposed?


Are there potential privacy issues as attendees bring computers into the 
host country, such as our laptops being subject to search of hard 
drives, memory sticks, etc., by authorities either on arriving or on 
leaving?


Are there export issues or other restrictions as computers and other 
technology are being taken out of ones home country to this part of the 
world?


Will there be adequate wireless connection(s) available?

Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Dave Crossland]

Hi,

I agree, going to a place like Vietnam, where freedoms and human rights are
respected even less than Brussels or Canada or Poland or France, to talk
about software freedom and computer users rights, will promote awareness of
the overall concepts. It perhaps in some small way may even help gain
respect for them.

Looking westwards: The UK isn't safe, its full of ... obnoxious British
people, like me :-) And, worse, British policemen; our Brasilian friends
might get shot on the metro if their laptop cables are not tucked into their
bags. Also, I suspect the UK is complicit in the USA torturing its citizens,
and I know Canada is.

While interesting, such broad political issues should not be decisive for
LGM, IMO. For a libre graphics event, what matters is the legal status of
software freedoms in a host country.

This means we should avoid countries who criminalise free exchange of
software ideas and reverse engineering: the USA is top of that list.

is Vietnam even on that list?

Regards, Dave

On 10 Jun 2010, 1:17 PM, "Stani"  wrote:

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Marcos Diaz  wrote: >>
I don't believe boycotti...
How is hosting the LGM in Vietnam forcing anyone attending the LGM to
ignore the human rights violations of the Vietnamese government? Maybe
you'll start reading about it and become more conscious of it. I have
had many exchange contacts with artist activists from non-western
countries. They always laugh with our 'superior' track record of human
rights. For them Western democracies are not innocent at all. Maybe in
their own country, but not in the world abroad.

For me free software is not about judging governments in the first
place, but above all about building communities. I think it would be
rude to exclude the Vietnamese or Asian communities from hosting the
LGM. As Dang Hong Phuc noticed the Asian community is not very present
in the Free Software movement, although they like to take part. We are
not going to change that from our comfortable broadband connections
remotely. Refusing them to bridge this gap, is not very ethical
either.

I agree with Cyrille, that hosting the LGM in Vietnam rather promotes
freedom, than supports human rights violations.

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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Stani]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Marcos Diaz  wrote:
>> I don't believe boycotting a population because of its government very
>> effective
>
> The people is welcome, a territory with diffuse laws not, at least for me.
>>
>> Does Vietnam government actually have a track record for torturing in the
>> past years?
>
> If we consider hit and jail bloggers by write opinions on the internet as
> torture, YES
> http://advocacy.globalvoicesonline.org/2009/10/23/vietnam-blogger-and-democracy-activist-tran-khai-thanh-thuy-beaten-and-arrested/
>>
>> The further this thread goes, the more crazy things turn up.
>
> I agree, ignore that a government is trampling people rights and try to
> minimize this fact saying the world is not black or white is just crazy...

How is hosting the LGM in Vietnam forcing anyone attending the LGM to
ignore the human rights violations of the Vietnamese government? Maybe
you'll start reading about it and become more conscious of it. I have
had many exchange contacts with artist activists from non-western
countries. They always laugh with our 'superior' track record of human
rights. For them Western democracies are not innocent at all. Maybe in
their own country, but not in the world abroad.

For me free software is not about judging governments in the first
place, but above all about building communities. I think it would be
rude to exclude the Vietnamese or Asian communities from hosting the
LGM. As Dang Hong Phuc noticed the Asian community is not very present
in the Free Software movement, although they like to take part. We are
not going to change that from our comfortable broadband connections
remotely. Refusing them to bridge this gap, is not very ethical
either.

I agree with Cyrille, that hosting the LGM in Vietnam rather promotes
freedom, than supports human rights violations.
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Cyrille Berger]

On Tuesday 08 June 2010, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
> I don't want to be a killjoy, but doesn't the Human Rights situation
> in Vietnam leave much to be desired? Do we care? Should we care? (For
> some value of "we".)
> 
> If visiting the US is a problem for political/privacy/whatever reasons
> to some people in the community, would the same people have a problem
> visiting Vietnam?
To be honest, the problem with the US is more the border control policy, and 
the difficulty to get a visa for many menbers of the community, the privacy 
issue is really minor, if you are so affraid of it, either don't come with a 
computer and enjoy many more social interractions or buy a 100€ netbook that 
will allow to check your mail with a ssh connection to your home country (or 
the host could manage to find us a room with a lot of computers in "libre" 
service).

So the real questions for Vietnam (or any contry) is: is it easy for the 
member of the community to get a VISA ? Is it safe to travel (how likely are 
the participant going to die) ? What are the chance to be randomly arrested 
(many countries have restrictrive law for gays and that might be a problem) ? 
What kind of restriction on freedom of speech ? And also the question of the 
travel cost (myself I would consider both economical cost and 
environmental...).

The last question is probably what is your concern about Vietnam. I would first 
note that LGM has been first held in France which has many restrictions on 
freedom of speech, but it didn't cause problems for us, since it concerns 
things like insulting other people, or claiming that recent event in the 
history did not happen. Clearly, Vietnam has stronger restrictions, but I am 
going to guess they mainly concern criticism of the government, and honestly, 
I do not think it is a problem, I consider it is rather impolte to come visit 
a country and start to criticise it. I would not appreciate if a foreigner 
comes to France and start to criticize our gouvernment and tell us what we 
should do instead. In other word, the freedom to criticize the Vietnamese 
government is a problem that concern only the Vietnamese.

But if the law of the host country restrict freedom in such a way that is not 
legal to discuss free software, or that would make illegal some aspect of the 
meeting, then obviously we should avoid that country.

> I know I wouldn't feel comfortable in a conference about one kind of
> freedom (the free software kind) that would (presumably) be sponsored
> by a government that is not that interested in more basic and
> universal kinds of freedom.
You have to consider that holding such an event is also a way to promote 
freedom in the country.

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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Marcos Diaz]

>
> I don't believe boycotting a population because of its government very
> effective

The people is welcome, a territory with diffuse laws not, at least for me.

Does Vietnam government actually have a track record for torturing in the
> past years?

If we consider hit and jail bloggers by write opinions on the internet as
torture, YES
http://advocacy.globalvoicesonline.org/2009/10/23/vietnam-blogger-and-democracy-activist-tran-khai-thanh-thuy-beaten-and-arrested/

The further this thread goes, the more crazy things turn up.

I agree, ignore that a government is trampling people rights and try to
minimize this fact saying the world is not black or white is just crazy...



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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> Does Vietnam government actually have a track record for torturing in the 
> past years?

At least the Human Rights Watch report for Vietnam for last year says
"Police torture is prevalent, particularly during interrogation of
political and religious prisoners, who are typically held
incommunicado prior to trial and denied family visits and access to
lawyers."

And no, of course my concern is not that the government or police
would torture or imprison tourists of conference visitors, like
participants in a LGM, that bring in cash to the country. My concern
is just that it could feel a bit weird to be promoting Free "as in
Speech" Software in a country where there isn't much of that free
speech. Sure, one can say that one shouldn't puninsh the people
because they have an evil government, and of course there is truth in
that, too.

But anyway, if you think I have a very "black and white" vision of the
world, that is not true at all. On the contrary, I am known to easily
change my mind in various matters, even too easily... and I am not
absolutely opposed to having a LGM in Vietnam. I just wanted to bring
up the human rights aspect.

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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Stani]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:18 AM, Marcos Diaz  wrote:
> My point of view is even any of us will be tortured, the money we would
> spend in a non-human-rights country could be used indirectly to torture
> others. It's just an ethical matter, dot.
Maybe ... ethics of an illusion. First of all the world isn't that
black and white. It is quite a challenge to divide the in
'human-rights' and 'non-human-rights' ('axis of evil' anyone?)
countries.   (See also my remark on Brazil later.) I suppose with
'countries' you actually mean 'governments'.This brings me to a second
point: I don't believe boycotting a population because of its
government very effective. So should we limit ourselves to
'human-right correct' countries? (Note that Belgium was condemned
unanimously by human right groups for its ban on full-face veils.
Oops, did the LGM fail?) Is that so ethical? So as a last point ...
how about post-colonialism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonialism

> For me a perfect place to LGM are countries that promotes Libre software,
> like Brazil, whose president, Lula, even mentions FOSS in in his political
> discourses and go to Libre meetings like the FISL (International Libre
> Software Forum) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzPmVGM3pp4 I cannot find it
> with subtitles now and I don't know Portuguese, sorry.
Strange ...  for 'ethical matters' Brazil might not be a 'perfect
place' for you:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/brazil/page.do?id=1011123

To be clear: I love Brazil and BTW I speak Portuguese.

Anyway the ethical dilemma is not new in the Free Software history.
This whole debate reminds me of the discussion between the 'ethical'
HESSLA and 'free software' GPL licenses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacktivismo_Enhanced-Source_Software_License_Agreement

In the end the Free Software Foundation concluded it would be
ineffective to incorporate the ethical restrictions in the GPL. I
think refusing non-western countries such as Vietnam, Brazil, ... for
the LGM location is ineffective as well. The talk of Hong Phuc Dang
was very impressive. I'd love to see more Asian people involved in
Free Software. If organizing the LGM in Vietnam can push that further,
it is a worthy goal!

Have a nice day!

Stani

-- 
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SPE Python IDE - http://pythonide.stani.be
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 6/10/10, Gregory Pittman wrote:

> Here are some generic concerns (in the form of questions I don't have
> definitive answers for) about the choice of a site for LGM, though not
> specific to Viet Nam:
>
> How should it be decided about where LGMs should happen? Should there
> already be some presence of project involvement in the area, or is there
> some thinking that LGM might some how jump start some intense interest
> all by itself?

Should there be either... or...?

> Should language barriers be considered? In other words, can we expect
> involvement with projects when we are unsure whether suitable
> communication can occur?

I'm pretty sure that Andy Fitzsimon who was at GNOME Asia 2009 and
liked the conference a lot hardly speaks any Vietnamese :)

> Maybe LGM should just be a webinar...

Why not just start selling VR hardware with LGM channel subscription? :)

I'm afraid that you seem to be seriously underestimating the backstage
part of the conference. We have IRC for talking. We need face2face for
*decisions*. And besides I'm looking forward to my comfy Vietnamese
prison cell with cockroaches the size of my head, thank you so very
much.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 6/10/10, Marcos Diaz wrote:

> My point of view is even any of us will be tortured,

"will NOT be tortured", you meant to write?

> the money we would spend in a non-human-rights country could
> be used indirectly to torture others.

Does Vietnam government actually have a track record for torturing in
the past years?

The further this thread goes, the more crazy things turn up.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Gregory Pittman]

On 06/09/2010 05:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> On 6/10/10, a.l.e wrote:
>
>> just reread what louis wrote and you will realize that i (and other 
people)
>> simply don't want one of our developers -- who is acting in 
conformance to
>> the copyrights laws in his/her country -- getting into trouble just 
because

>> the US of America has other rules on that matter.
>
> Note how after saying that back in 2007 I stepped on my own toes three
> years later by getting myself involved into reverse engineering :) So
> take it with a grain of salt.
>
> If we start considering what countries are less evil with regards to
> human rights, copyright law and so on, we might as well lock ourselves
> in a closet and never go out to see the light of day. So may I humbly
> (yeah, right :)) suggest to step over the whole human rights thing and
> accept probability of any free software developer being dragged
> kicking and screaming to a local Vietnamese prison as zeroish?

I don't see all this freedom business as being problems of substance 
regarding the meeting site, but it would take some work to make sure 
everyone understands the need for visas.


Here are some generic concerns (in the form of questions I don't have 
definitive answers for) about the choice of a site for LGM, though not 
specific to Viet Nam:


How should it be decided about where LGMs should happen? Should there 
already be some presence of project involvement in the area, or is there 
some thinking that LGM might some how jump start some intense interest 
all by itself?


Should language barriers be considered? In other words, can we expect 
involvement with projects when we are unsure whether suitable 
communication can occur?


How will the success of such a meeting be decided? Local attendance? 
Worldwide attendance? A combination? Is it Ok if hardly anyone goes, but 
a lot watch on the web? Maybe LGM should just be a webinar...


Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Marcos Diaz]

My point of view is even any of us will be tortured, the money we would
spend in a non-human-rights country could be used indirectly to torture
others. It's just an ethical matter, dot.

For me a perfect place to LGM are countries that promotes Libre software,
like Brazil, whose president, Lula, even mentions FOSS in in his political
discourses and go to Libre meetings like the FISL (International Libre
Software Forum) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzPmVGM3pp4 I cannot find it
with subtitles now and I don't know Portuguese, sorry.


-- 
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Nathive project developer
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 6/10/10, a.l.e wrote:

> just reread what louis wrote and you will realize that i (and other people)
> simply don't want one of our developers -- who is acting in conformance to
> the copyrights laws in his/her country -- getting into trouble just because
> the US of America has other rules on that matter.

Note how after saying that back in 2007 I stepped on my own toes three
years later by getting myself involved into reverse engineering :) So
take it with a grain of salt.

If we start considering what countries are less evil with regards to
human rights, copyright law and so on, we might as well lock ourselves
in a closet and never go out to see the light of day. So may I humbly
(yeah, right :)) suggest to step over the whole human rights thing and
accept probability of any free software developer being dragged
kicking and screaming to a local Vietnamese prison as zeroish?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Robert Martinez]

On 06/09/2010 02:59 PM, Hong Phuc Dang wrote:

(1) Human rights: As long as we don't talk about Human Rights, we are
safe for sure.
   


Software freedom, hardware freedom and all similar kinds of freedom that 
make me enthusiastic about LGM are kind of a derivative or a sub-group 
of human rights in my eyes.

It is strange to imagine that this basic issue should be avoided.

(But I _DO_ believe that Vietnamese people would be great hosts btw!)

my humble opinion


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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[a.l.e]

hi tor,

> > the only major incident was about the "lawyer case".
> 
> http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87404 might be a better source.
> 
> > Literally every country in the
> > world has a political-social situation that in majority rejects our
> > views on freedom (this time software and media freedom)
> 
> ("our" views on "software and media freedom" would be the views of the
> vocal "pirate" clique, I guess?)
> 
> Are you really suggesting that democratically elected governments that
> respect and enforce copyright legislation (if such legislation is not
> what you like) are comparable in evilness to totalitarian governments
> that physically abuse and imprison political dissidents without trial
> etc?

no.

and i don't think that this is the place to start a US of America bashing 
thread. so i want cite... i won't cite it.


just reread what louis wrote and you will realize that i (and other people) 
simply don't want one of our developers -- who is acting in conformance to the 
copyrights laws in his/her country -- getting into trouble just because the US 
of America has other rules on that matter.


ciao
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> What are you basing this
> on?

On my unscientific opinion, and independent thought, of course.

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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Jon Nordby]

On 9 June 2010 22:05, Tor Lillqvist  wrote:
>> the only major incident was about the "lawyer case".
>
> http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87404 might be a better source.
>
>> Literally every country in the
>> world has a political-social situation that in majority rejects our
>> views on freedom (this time software and media freedom)
>
> ("our" views on "software and media freedom" would be the views of the
> vocal "pirate" clique, I guess?)
>
> Are you really suggesting that democratically elected governments that
> respect and enforce copyright legislation (if such legislation is not
> what you like) are comparable in evilness to totalitarian governments
> that physically abuse and imprison political dissidents without trial
> etc?
I have not noticed anything that suggests that participants in the
discussion does not like "democratically elected governments that
respect and enforce copyright legislation". What are you basing this
on?

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[CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> the only major incident was about the "lawyer case".

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87404 might be a better source.

> Literally every country in the
> world has a political-social situation that in majority rejects our
> views on freedom (this time software and media freedom)

("our" views on "software and media freedom" would be the views of the
vocal "pirate" clique, I guess?)

Are you really suggesting that democratically elected governments that
respect and enforce copyright legislation (if such legislation is not
what you like) are comparable in evilness to totalitarian governments
that physically abuse and imprison political dissidents without trial
etc?

--tml
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[CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

> the only major incident was about the "lawyer case".

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87404 might be a better source.

> Literally every country in the
> world has a political-social situation that in majority rejects our
> views on freedom (this time software and media freedom)

("our" views on "software and media freedom" would be the views of the
vocal "pirate" clique, I guess?)

Are you really suggesting that democratically elected governments that
respect and enforce copyright legislation (if such legislation is not
what you like) are comparable in evilness to totalitarian governments
that physically abuse and imprison political dissidents without trial
etc?

--tml
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/6/9 Hong Phuc Dang 

> Dear all,
>
> @Tor: thank you very much for raising the concern. I agree that
> political part plays a very important role in any international
> conferences.
>

Hi all,

One question has to be explicitely addressed here.

How a country deals with software patents is of great interest to
developers. This is one big reason for quite a few developers to explicitely
exclude the United States of America from being a host for LGM. Basically,
people don’t want to get into judiciary issues while participating is such a
conference.

We have to find out just how friendly (or how threatening) the LGM host
country is to FLOSS in general and to FLOSS developers in particular.

Back in May 2007, we had a discussion on that issue in the Create Mailing
List.

Here is an excerpt of one exchange between Alexandre Prokoudine and Dave
Crossland.

[ AP ] giving proprietary guys even a tiny chance to sue one of
> our developers should never occur.

[ DC ] All developers in the USA are under constant threat of
> patent violation suits for all code they write. Developing free code
> to read/write proprietary file formats has an additional risk of
> breaking the 'technical protection measures' part of the DMCA.


Let’s feed that thread with all relevant information.

Louis

>
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Hong Phuc Dang]

Dear all,

@Tor: thank you very much for raising the concern. I agree that
political part plays a very important role in any international
conferences.

As a Vietnamese citizen, I have some responses to your thought:

(1) Human rights: As long as we don't talk about Human Rights, we are
safe for sure. I wonder if Libre Graphics meeting has much to do with
politics? There was no topic about Human Rights during LGM 2010 I
believe :-). Besides in order to hold an international event, we often
need to co-organize with a Government office. In our case it will be
the Information Communication Technology (ICT) Department of the host
city.

Co-organize means the Government would like to have their name appear
as a co-organizer without doing any things. The advantage is they can
help us acquire the conference license and visa. We had GNOME.Asia
here with 1400 participants. Other events include Open Courseware
conference , Creative Commons Launch, Software Freedom Day, Barcamp,
and FOSSASIA in November. I think it is definitely possible to have
Libre Graphics Meeting here in Vietnam

(2) Problem of visiting Vietnam: I am not sure if the problem comes
from the people or the process of getting in Vietnam. If it is about
someone's opinion, I totally understand. Some people will avoid to
visit Vietnam due to some political issues. There is nothing that we
can do about it. On the other hand, if it is about the process, we can
help arrange the visa for you as we did several times before.

(3) Government issue: every country operates under its own system. I
understand that we do not have a "perfect" Government here in Vietnam.
However I think it is not so fair to reject a country based on its
Government right? @pierros: thanks for your support.

(4) @Agnez: your friend mentioned about a Foss asia group in Mekong
ICT. They are from our team. We are organizing FOSS.ASIA 2010 in Ho
Chi Minh from Nov 12-14. They are in Chiang Mai at the moment. I got
invited as well but I could not come because I have already used up
this year vacation. Wow, this is such a small world :-).

Again thank you very much for sharing your point of view. I am very
happy that there are more and more people who would like to learn
about our country. Why don't you all visit us to gain  your own
experiences about a "real" Vietnam? I would be so so glad to see you
here.

All the best from Vietnam,

Hong Phuc

2010/6/9 agnez.. :
> Hi,
> as I know a specialist on Asian human rights questions I just forwarded her
> your concerns and asked her opinion.
> Here is her answer. Please let me know if you want me to ask for more
> precise matters or help in contacts.
> cheers
> agnez
>
> Hi Agnez,
>
> sure I have some time to answer your question.
> It's a coincidence you ask me this now cuz I am at an ICT camp, with many
> people from Vietnam as well. There is a small organisation called FOSS
> Asia who hold FOSS open days, to encourage people to use free software
> etc. I could bring you in touch wtih them if you want.
> On HR. Well it depends what your reasons are for questioning whether it's
> appropriate to hold such an event in Vietnam. Yes there are many HR
> violations and there is no civil and political freedom in Vietnam. There
> are no independent NGOs, no political parties, lots of surveillance,
> censorship etc. Then again, there are few countries in this part of the
> world I could recommend. Right now, Indonesia may be best in terms of
> freedom of speech, but it's probably just the best of the worst.
> In terms of your own security and the sensitivity of the seminar, it
> should be okay. However, as an American journo who works for Vietnamese
> newspaper just said to me, if you want to avoid too much hassle from
> government (you would have to let them know you hold this seminar) you
> shoudl work together with local media/groups. I assume you guys choose
> Vietnam beacsue there are links with your communities there?
> It's up to your own judgment really I would say. I agree with comment
> below that even holding something in the US can be controversial, seeing
> what they do abroad. Maybe it's good to expose people in Vietnam to your
> projects, whcih don't seem to be political actually.
> Let me know if you need some contacts. I can get them for you this week,
> while I am here.
>
> cheers, T
>
>
> On 06/08/10 12:37, P Papadeas wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Tor Lillqvist  wrote:
>
>
> I don't want to be a killjoy, but doesn't the Human Rights situation
> in Vietnam leave much to be desired? Do we care? Should we care? (For
> some value of "we".)
>
>
> I took some time to look for any info concerning the situation and I
> found some resources about your concerns.
> Presumably the Wikipedia article is far from cited
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Vietnam) and the only
> major incident was about the "lawyer case". The propaganda against any
> country that does not follow the Western way of political activity has
> gone 

Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Hong Phuc Dang]

Dear all,

@Tor: thank you very much for raising the concern. I agree that
political part plays a very important role in any international
conferences.

As a Vietnamese citizen, I have some responses to your thought:

(1) Human rights: As long as we don't talk about Human Rights, we are
safe for sure. I wonder if Libre Graphics meeting has much to do with
politics? There was no topic about Human Rights during LGM 2010 I
believe :-). Besides in order to hold an international event, we often
need to co-organize with a Government office. In our case it will be
the Information Communication Technology (ICT) Department of the host
city.

Co-organize means the Government would like to have their name appear
as a co-organizer without doing any things. The advantage is they can
help us acquire the conference license and visa. We had GNOME.Asia
here with 1400 participants. Other events include Open Courseware
conference , Creative Commons Launch, Software Freedom Day, Barcamp,
and FOSSASIA in November. I think it is definitely possible to have
Libre Graphics Meeting here in Vietnam

(2) Problem of visiting Vietnam: I am not sure if the problem comes
from the people or the process of getting in Vietnam. If it is about
someone's opinion, I totally understand. Some people will avoid to
visit Vietnam due to some political issues. There is nothing that we
can do about it. On the other hand, if it is about the process, we can
help arrange the visa for you as we did several times before.

(3) Government issue: every country operates under its own system. I
understand that we do not have a "perfect" Government here in Vietnam.
However I think it is not so fair to reject a country based on its
Government right? @pierros: thanks for your support.

(4) @Agnez: your friend mentioned about a Foss asia group in Mekong
ICT. They are from our team. We are organizing FOSSASIA
2010in Ho
Chi Minh from Nov 12-14. They are in Chiang Mai at the moment. I got
invited as well but I could not come because I have already used up
this year vacation. Wow, this is such a small world :-).

Again thank you very much for sharing your point of view. I am very
happy that there are more and more people who would like to learn
about our country. Why don't you all visit us to gain  your own
experiences about a "real" Vietnam? I would be so so glad to see you
here.

All the best from Vietnam,

Hong Phuc

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Tor Lillqvist  wrote:
> I don't want to be a killjoy, but doesn't the Human Rights situation
> in Vietnam leave much to be desired? Do we care? Should we care? (For
> some value of "we".)
>
> If visiting the US is a problem for political/privacy/whatever reasons
> to some people in the community, would the same people have a problem
> visiting Vietnam?
>
> I know I wouldn't feel comfortable in a conference about one kind of
> freedom (the free software kind) that would (presumably) be sponsored
> by a government that is not that interested in more basic and
> universal kinds of freedom.
>
> But I am not really an expert... and I might be convinced that gaining
> more information about one kind of freedom will eventually help
> improving other freedoms, too, in a country.
>
> --tml
> ___
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[agnez..]

Hi,
as I know a specialist on Asian human rights questions I just forwarded 
her your concerns and asked her opinion.
Here is her answer. Please let me know if you want me to ask for more 
precise matters or help in contacts.

cheers
agnez

Hi Agnez,

sure I have some time to answer your question.
It's a coincidence you ask me this now cuz I am at an ICT camp, with many
people from Vietnam as well. There is a small organisation called FOSS
Asia who hold FOSS open days, to encourage people to use free software
etc. I could bring you in touch wtih them if you want.
On HR. Well it depends what your reasons are for questioning whether it's
appropriate to hold such an event in Vietnam. Yes there are many HR
violations and there is no civil and political freedom in Vietnam. There
are no independent NGOs, no political parties, lots of surveillance,
censorship etc. Then again, there are few countries in this part of the
world I could recommend. Right now, Indonesia may be best in terms of
freedom of speech, but it's probably just the best of the worst.
In terms of your own security and the sensitivity of the seminar, it
should be okay. However, as an American journo who works for Vietnamese
newspaper just said to me, if you want to avoid too much hassle from
government (you would have to let them know you hold this seminar) you
shoudl work together with local media/groups. I assume you guys choose
Vietnam beacsue there are links with your communities there?
It's up to your own judgment really I would say. I agree with comment
below that even holding something in the US can be controversial, seeing
what they do abroad. Maybe it's good to expose people in Vietnam to your
projects, whcih don't seem to be political actually.
Let me know if you need some contacts. I can get them for you this week,
while I am here.

cheers, T
   



On 06/08/10 12:37, P Papadeas wrote:

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Tor Lillqvist  wrote:
   

I don't want to be a killjoy, but doesn't the Human Rights situation
in Vietnam leave much to be desired? Do we care? Should we care? (For
some value of "we".)
 

I took some time to look for any info concerning the situation and I
found some resources about your concerns.
Presumably the Wikipedia article is far from cited
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Vietnam) and the only
major incident was about the "lawyer case". The propaganda against any
country that does not follow the Western way of political activity has
gone way to far imho...

   

If visiting the US is a problem for political/privacy/whatever reasons
to some people in the community, would the same people have a problem
visiting Vietnam?
 

As far as I am concerned,  every country that hosted an LGM has some
serious implications on the word "freedom" ("peace-keeping ops",
"software patents", "privacy" etc). Literally every country in the
world has a political-social situation that in majority rejects our
views on freedom (this time software and media freedom)

   

I know I wouldn't feel comfortable in a conference about one kind of
freedom (the free software kind) that would (presumably) be sponsored
by a government that is not that interested in more basic and
universal kinds of freedom.

But I am not really an expert... and I might be convinced that gaining
more information about one kind of freedom will eventually help
improving other freedoms, too, in a country.
 

That could also be the case too... by rejecting countries based on the
majority-view of the Western Culture we end up *not* being universal
and blocking the empowerment of people around the world...

Vietnam may have some issues... as every other country in the world
has more or less.

Friendly,

~π

   
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Re: [CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[P Papadeas]

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Tor Lillqvist  wrote:
> I don't want to be a killjoy, but doesn't the Human Rights situation
> in Vietnam leave much to be desired? Do we care? Should we care? (For
> some value of "we".)

I took some time to look for any info concerning the situation and I
found some resources about your concerns.
Presumably the Wikipedia article is far from cited
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Vietnam) and the only
major incident was about the "lawyer case". The propaganda against any
country that does not follow the Western way of political activity has
gone way to far imho...

> If visiting the US is a problem for political/privacy/whatever reasons
> to some people in the community, would the same people have a problem
> visiting Vietnam?

As far as I am concerned,  every country that hosted an LGM has some
serious implications on the word "freedom" ("peace-keeping ops",
"software patents", "privacy" etc). Literally every country in the
world has a political-social situation that in majority rejects our
views on freedom (this time software and media freedom)

> I know I wouldn't feel comfortable in a conference about one kind of
> freedom (the free software kind) that would (presumably) be sponsored
> by a government that is not that interested in more basic and
> universal kinds of freedom.
>
> But I am not really an expert... and I might be convinced that gaining
> more information about one kind of freedom will eventually help
> improving other freedoms, too, in a country.

That could also be the case too... by rejecting countries based on the
majority-view of the Western Culture we end up *not* being universal
and blocking the empowerment of people around the world...

Vietnam may have some issues... as every other country in the world
has more or less.

Friendly,

~π

-- 
Pierros Papadeas
PGP key: 0x6130DBF8
http://pierros.papadeas.gr
pier...@papadeas.gr
liknus @ GRnet , Freenode
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[CREATE] Free as in Speech, and Vietnam?

[Tor Lillqvist]

I don't want to be a killjoy, but doesn't the Human Rights situation
in Vietnam leave much to be desired? Do we care? Should we care? (For
some value of "we".)

If visiting the US is a problem for political/privacy/whatever reasons
to some people in the community, would the same people have a problem
visiting Vietnam?

I know I wouldn't feel comfortable in a conference about one kind of
freedom (the free software kind) that would (presumably) be sponsored
by a government that is not that interested in more basic and
universal kinds of freedom.

But I am not really an expert... and I might be convinced that gaining
more information about one kind of freedom will eventually help
improving other freedoms, too, in a country.

--tml
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