Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Dear Simon,
Interesting thought. I'd say however, I am not confused by this. In my
opinion, the problem lays in the human mind, which tries to stretch
abstractions over incompatible evidence.
From a CRM point of view, every copy of such a process is an individual
physical object. Why should we call
it a Manifestation, or even something more abstract, if it does not fit
to the book market process this concept was designed for?
If there is an individual artistic contribution each time (as I
mentioned in my last message), then we talk about new features on the
plate each time, which correspond to a new symbolic content
("Expression"). There are two cases: Either it is an overall derivative,
or there is an "incorporation" of content by virtue of the fixed
features on the plate. So, I'd say the individually colored copy
"incorporates" the plate optical content and adds a new creation process
to it.
The question of second order logic arises when we want to talk about
types of types of things which inherit fixed properties from their
class, such as the number of pages of a book.
If regarding such copies is better modelled as instances of a type or
not is for me the primary question, not the kind of logic to be used.
The fixed features on the individually colored plate would hardly be
expanded into discrete properties, besides itself being on the plate.
Also, to my understanding, the second order logic features needed to
describe inheritance of properties from types of types or classes is
completely decidable and no technical problem except for the current
reluctance of IT to think in such terms ;-) .
Interesting are the requirements which kind of logic cultural-historical
data need, rather than, which logic to avoid. From CRM-SIG point of
view, we require since a long time more powerful forms of logic than
standard DL.
What do you think?
Martin
On 10/8/2015 9:02 μμ, Simon Spero wrote:
To add a bit more confusion to the discussion, one can consider
Blake's hand printed books.
Every plate was coloured individually, and differently, and are some
scholars consider each copy to be a distinct [thing more abstract than
Manifestation].
There is some justification for this, as there is distinct
intellectual content (produced by the original author, even). This
seems to fall into the awkward place in FRBR where expression and work
overlap.
This happens a lot in different places in FRBR; it's difficult to
handle without using a second order logic, or at least a first order
logic which allows for quantifying over known predicates.
Simon
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 5:48 AM <mailto:patrick.le-bo...@bnf.fr>> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I completely agree with Martin. There is no point in dealing with
art prints as continuing resources. PRESSoo is inadequate in this
context. I think there is enough stuff in a combination of FRBRoo
and CIDOC CRM to cope with at least the main issues raised by art
prints. Surely an extension of FRBRoo could bring more refinements
in the treatment of such products, but FRBRoo has to remain a
high-level conceptual model.
Best wishes,
Patrick
De : martin mailto:mar...@ics.forth.gr>>
A : crm-sig@ics.forth.gr <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
Date : 09/08/2015 16:11
Objet : Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Envoyé par : "Crm-sig" mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr>>
Hi Jim,
A serialization character of prints is not so obvious to me. The
reworking of print plates appears to me
to be a rather peculiar process of modification of a material
object, not so much an editorial series.
The actual printing process is either a mechanical one, or a
combination of manual creative work and
mechanical work, which I'd see more similar to book printing on
one side, and mold-based techniques,
such as in ceramics or bronze?
Best,
Martin
On 7/8/2015 7:05 μμ, Jim Salmons wrote:
Regine, C.E.S., and Martin,
In the context of FRBRoo as a DSL/extension of #cidocCRM with
particular reference to the “serialization” character of print
production, it may be useful to consider the ISSN.org’s
contribution of PRESSoo, an extension/harmonization that brings
serialization and continuation semantics to FRBRoo.
The reference document is found here:
_http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/_
and Patrick Le Boeuf’s presentation on behalf of the ISSN working
group which developed this valuable contribution is here:
_http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo_
Happy-Healthy Vibes,
-: Jim :-
Jim Salmons
Twitter: @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, @Softalk_Apple
_www.FactMiners.org_ <
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
To add a bit more confusion to the discussion, one can consider Blake's hand printed books. Every plate was coloured individually, and differently, and are some scholars consider each copy to be a distinct [thing more abstract than Manifestation]. There is some justification for this, as there is distinct intellectual content (produced by the original author, even). This seems to fall into the awkward place in FRBR where expression and work overlap. This happens a lot in different places in FRBR; it's difficult to handle without using a second order logic, or at least a first order logic which allows for quantifying over known predicates. Simon On Mon, Aug 10, 2015, 5:48 AM wrote: > Hi everyone, > I completely agree with Martin. There is no point in dealing with art > prints as continuing resources. PRESSoo is inadequate in this context. I > think there is enough stuff in a combination of FRBRoo and CIDOC CRM to > cope with at least the main issues raised by art prints. Surely an > extension of FRBRoo could bring more refinements in the treatment of such > products, but FRBRoo has to remain a high-level conceptual model. > Best wishes, > Patrick > > > > De :martin > A :crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > Date : 09/08/2015 16:11 > Objet :Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? > Envoyé par :"Crm-sig" > -- > > > > Hi Jim, > > A serialization character of prints is not so obvious to me. The reworking > of print plates appears to me > to be a rather peculiar process of modification of a material object, not > so much an editorial series. > The actual printing process is either a mechanical one, or a combination > of manual creative work and > mechanical work, which I'd see more similar to book printing on one side, > and mold-based techniques, > such as in ceramics or bronze? > > Best, > > Martin > > On 7/8/2015 7:05 μμ, Jim Salmons wrote: > Regine, C.E.S., and Martin, > > In the context of FRBRoo as a DSL/extension of #cidocCRM with particular > reference to the “serialization” character of print production, it may be > useful to consider the ISSN.org’s contribution of PRESSoo, an > extension/harmonization that brings serialization and continuation > semantics to FRBRoo. > > The reference document is found here: > > > *http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/* > <http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/> > > and Patrick Le Boeuf’s presentation on behalf of the ISSN working group > which developed this valuable contribution is here: > > *http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo* > <http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo> > > > Happy-Healthy Vibes, > -: Jim :- > > Jim Salmons > Twitter: @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, @Softalk_Apple > *www.FactMiners.org* <http://www.factminers.org/>(Open Source > #Play2Learn game community) > *www.SoftalkApple.com* <http://www.softalkapple.com/>(first > FactMiners museum/archive project) > > > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > *Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr* > *http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig* > <http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig> > > > > -- > > -- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625| > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638| > | Email: *mar...@ics.forth.gr* > | > | > Center for Cultural Informatics | > Information Systems Laboratory| >Institute of Computer Science| > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: *http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl* > <http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl> | > -- > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > -- > > Exposition *Piaf > <http://www.bnf.fr/fr/evenements_et_culture/anx_expositions/f.piaf.html>* > - du 14 avril 2015 au 23 ao?t 2015 - BnF - Fran?ois-Mitterrand | *Derniers > jours* > > *Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement.* > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi everyone, I completely agree with Martin. There is no point in dealing with art prints as continuing resources. PRESSoo is inadequate in this context. I think there is enough stuff in a combination of FRBRoo and CIDOC CRM to cope with at least the main issues raised by art prints. Surely an extension of FRBRoo could bring more refinements in the treatment of such products, but FRBRoo has to remain a high-level conceptual model. Best wishes, Patrick De :martin A : crm-sig@ics.forth.gr Date : 09/08/2015 16:11 Objet : Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Envoyé par :"Crm-sig" Hi Jim, A serialization character of prints is not so obvious to me. The reworking of print plates appears to me to be a rather peculiar process of modification of a material object, not so much an editorial series. The actual printing process is either a mechanical one, or a combination of manual creative work and mechanical work, which I'd see more similar to book printing on one side, and mold-based techniques, such as in ceramics or bronze? Best, Martin On 7/8/2015 7:05 μμ, Jim Salmons wrote: Regine, C.E.S., and Martin, In the context of FRBRoo as a DSL/extension of #cidocCRM with particular reference to the “serialization” character of print production, it may be useful to consider the ISSN.org’s contribution of PRESSoo, an extension/harmonization that brings serialization and continuation semantics to FRBRoo. The reference document is found here: http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/ and Patrick Le Boeuf’s presentation on behalf of the ISSN working group which developed this valuable contribution is here: http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo Happy-Healthy Vibes, -: Jim :- Jim Salmons Twitter: @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, @Softalk_Apple www.FactMiners.org (Open Source #Play2Learn game community) www.SoftalkApple.com (first FactMiners museum/archive project) ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- -- Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625| Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638| | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | | Center for Cultural Informatics | Information Systems Laboratory| Institute of Computer Science| Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | | N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | | Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | -- ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig Exposition Piaf - du 14 avril 2015 au 23 ao?t 2015 - BnF - Fran?ois-Mitterrand | Derniers jours Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement.
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Regine, C.E.S., and Martin, In the context of FRBRoo as a DSL/extension of #cidocCRM with particular reference to the “serialization” character of print production, it may be useful to consider the ISSN.org’s contribution of PRESSoo, an extension/harmonization that brings serialization and continuation semantics to FRBRoo. The reference document is found here: http://www.issn.org/the-centre-and-the-network/our-partners-and-projects/pressoo/ and Patrick Le Boeuf’s presentation on behalf of the ISSN working group which developed this valuable contribution is here: http://www.slideshare.net/patrickleboeuf/20130719-pres-soo Happy-Healthy Vibes, -: Jim :- Jim Salmons Twitter: @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, @Softalk_Apple www.FactMiners.org (Open Source #Play2Learn game community) www.SoftalkApple.com (first FactMiners museum/archive project)
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Dear Regine, I think this is a nice application of FRBRoo to a more museum-like context. The Work discussion is an old one. Both positions are justified. Therefore FRBRoo defines an "Individual Work" in contrast to a "Complex Work". In practice, i'd suggest instantiating the "Individual Work" can be ommitted, once it can be inferred, as we had proposed to Europeana. I'd argue, the distinction "they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification" is pointless, because there is a new artistic contribution. The expression is new. The Work gets another realization. The plate is physically modified. The feature on it, the scratches, are new. An Expression cannot be modified. The "invenit" can be associated with the work conception, but is an expression in its own right. The "FECIT" has its own artistic contribution, I'd argue it is a derivative. But there are better FRBR experts on this list! I think it will be good to create a guideline for this case. I believe it should be discussed together with the bronze casting work. All the best, Martin On 3/8/2015 11:23 πμ, Regine Stein wrote: Hi, Apparently my message didn't pass through on Friday (since it was too big, apparently due to the citations of E12 and F32 in Martin's email, I removed them now) so I try it again - best, Regine ---- Weitergeleitete Nachricht ---- Betreff:Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Datum: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:33:14 +0200 Von:Stein, Regine An: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr, frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Kopie (CC): Gudrun Knaus Dear Christian-Emil, dear Martin, Many thanks for your responses! Our interest is indeed to understand the whole process of artistic printing (firstly in early modern Europe), how the idea of a visual work evolved in the process, what are the relationships between the various (conceptual and physical) objects involved in the process. Making a printing plate always starts with a drawing which may either be a copy of an existing visual work, a painting, or may be intentionally designed for a print, either by the printmaker or by another artist. In German language we typically use in documentation the roles "Inventor" and "Stecher", according to the Latin "INVENIT" and "FECIT" which one can often find in inscriptions (see e.g. engravings by Marcantonio Raimondi with inscription "RAPHA URBI INVEN / MAF" - Raphael invented it / Marcantonio fecit = Marcantonio made it). Then, the same visual idea may be realized in several printing plates. Then, we have prints from different states of this same printing plate, and they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification. In order to limit the number of copies a printing plate may be scratched. If we are lucky the printing plate still exists somewhere but obviously in its last state, and earlier states are only known through the prints. Then prints may be compiled into series and so on. As we are dealing with multiples we wonder if FRBRoo is appropriate to approach this, our questions include: - Should we consider multiple realizations of the same drawing in various printing plates as multiple F2 Expression (F24 Publication Expression) of the same F1 Work (F14 Individual Work)? Or are they all different works? - Should we consider different states of one printing plate as F3 Manifestation Product Type? - How to reflect the different states of the printing plate as "used specific object" in E12 Production? - Analysis of what is typically recorded in the documentation in a museum holding one (or multiple) print(s): which information pertains to the Work / Expression (e.g. the subject / P62 depicts), which to the printing plate / F3 Manifestation Product Type (e.g. the state), which to the actual museum object / F4 Item? We are grateful for further comments on this, and will certainly be back to the group as we move on. Btw, the AAT of course differentiates "prints (visual works)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 - or more specifically "engravings (prints)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041340 "printing plates" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022755 as well as the process of "engraving (printing process)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300053225 Best wishes Regine Am 30.07.2015 um 21:58 schrieb martin: Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production [...] §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and t
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi, Apparently my message didn't pass through on Friday (since it was too big, apparently due to the citations of E12 and F32 in Martin's email, I removed them now) so I try it again - best, Regine Weitergeleitete Nachricht Betreff:Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Datum: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:33:14 +0200 Von:Stein, Regine An: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr, frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Kopie (CC): Gudrun Knaus Dear Christian-Emil, dear Martin, Many thanks for your responses! Our interest is indeed to understand the whole process of artistic printing (firstly in early modern Europe), how the idea of a visual work evolved in the process, what are the relationships between the various (conceptual and physical) objects involved in the process. Making a printing plate always starts with a drawing which may either be a copy of an existing visual work, a painting, or may be intentionally designed for a print, either by the printmaker or by another artist. In German language we typically use in documentation the roles "Inventor" and "Stecher", according to the Latin "INVENIT" and "FECIT" which one can often find in inscriptions (see e.g. engravings by Marcantonio Raimondi with inscription "RAPHA URBI INVEN / MAF" - Raphael invented it / Marcantonio fecit = Marcantonio made it). Then, the same visual idea may be realized in several printing plates. Then, we have prints from different states of this same printing plate, and they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification. In order to limit the number of copies a printing plate may be scratched. If we are lucky the printing plate still exists somewhere but obviously in its last state, and earlier states are only known through the prints. Then prints may be compiled into series and so on. As we are dealing with multiples we wonder if FRBRoo is appropriate to approach this, our questions include: - Should we consider multiple realizations of the same drawing in various printing plates as multiple F2 Expression (F24 Publication Expression) of the same F1 Work (F14 Individual Work)? Or are they all different works? - Should we consider different states of one printing plate as F3 Manifestation Product Type? - How to reflect the different states of the printing plate as "used specific object" in E12 Production? - Analysis of what is typically recorded in the documentation in a museum holding one (or multiple) print(s): which information pertains to the Work / Expression (e.g. the subject / P62 depicts), which to the printing plate / F3 Manifestation Product Type (e.g. the state), which to the actual museum object / F4 Item? We are grateful for further comments on this, and will certainly be back to the group as we move on. Btw, the AAT of course differentiates "prints (visual works)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 - or more specifically "engravings (prints)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041340 "printing plates" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022755 as well as the process of "engraving (printing process)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300053225 Best wishes Regine Am 30.07.2015 um 21:58 schrieb martin: Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production [...] §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and the prints, or, in more creative techniques, the information content of the plate is "incorporated" in the prints. The print plate is "used specific object" in the printing process, but a specialization of E12 may be adequate to fix the specific kind of use and its consequences of information transfer to the copies. We are also discussing a generalization of F32 Carrier Production Event [...] into industrial production, of cars, tools, coins and whatever. Artistic prints with limited copies etc may not be regarded as producing "things of type XXX". A CRM extension into the world of artitstic printing may be interesting. If its only about using AAT vocabulary, Christian-Emil's remark's should be sufficient. I do not know if the AAT differentiates the plate as museum object from the copy. All the best, Martin On 30/7/2015 9:48 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Hi Regine If I understand AAT correctly, it is a thesaurus and is as such a hierarchy of concepts and can be seen as a incarnation of a hierarchy under the E55 Type. In a CRM/FRBRoo context a print is a physical object (one of the items of a series), for instance a lithography, a p
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi, Apparently my message didn't pass through on Friday (since it was too big, strange enough) so I try it again - best, Regine Weitergeleitete Nachricht Betreff:Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Datum: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:33:14 +0200 Von:Stein, Regine An: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr, frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Kopie (CC): Gudrun Knaus Dear Christian-Emil, dear Martin, Many thanks for your responses! Our interest is indeed to understand the whole process of artistic printing (firstly in early modern Europe), how the idea of a visual work evolved in the process, what are the relationships between the various (conceptual and physical) objects involved in the process. Making a printing plate always starts with a drawing which may either be a copy of an existing visual work, a painting, or may be intentionally designed for a print, either by the printmaker or by another artist. In German language we typically use in documentation the roles "Inventor" and "Stecher", according to the Latin "INVENIT" and "FECIT" which one can often find in inscriptions (see e.g. engravings by Marcantonio Raimondi with inscription "RAPHA URBI INVEN / MAF" - Raphael invented it / Marcantonio fecit = Marcantonio made it). Then, the same visual idea may be realized in several printing plates. Then, we have prints from different states of this same printing plate, and they are sometimes considered as a new visual work, sometimes just as modification. In order to limit the number of copies a printing plate may be scratched. If we are lucky the printing plate still exists somewhere but obviously in its last state, and earlier states are only known through the prints. Then prints may be compiled into series and so on. As we are dealing with multiples we wonder if FRBRoo is appropriate to approach this, our questions include: - Should we consider multiple realizations of the same drawing in various printing plates as multiple F2 Expression (F24 Publication Expression) of the same F1 Work (F14 Individual Work)? Or are they all different works? - Should we consider different states of one printing plate as F3 Manifestation Product Type? - How to reflect the different states of the printing plate as "used specific object" in E12 Production? - Analysis of what is typically recorded in the documentation in a museum holding one (or multiple) print(s): which information pertains to the Work / Expression (e.g. the subject / P62 depicts), which to the printing plate / F3 Manifestation Product Type (e.g. the state), which to the actual museum object / F4 Item? We are grateful for further comments on this, and will certainly be back to the group as we move on. Btw, the AAT of course differentiates "prints (visual works)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 - or more specifically "engravings (prints)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041340 "printing plates" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022755 as well as the process of "engraving (printing process)" -> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300053225 Best wishes Regine Am 30.07.2015 um 21:58 schrieb martin: Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production [...] Examples: [...] §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and the prints, or, in more creative techniques, the information content of the plate is "incorporated" in the prints. The print plate is "used specific object" in the printing process, but a specialization of E12 may be adequate to fix the specific kind of use and its consequences of information transfer to the copies. We are also discussing a generalization of F32 Carrier Production Event Subclass of:E12 <#_E12_Production_>Production Scope note:This class comprises activities that result in instances of F54 Utilized Information Carrier coming into existence. Both the production of a series of physical objects (printed books, scores, CDs, DVDs, CD-ROMS, etc.) and the creation of a new copy of a file on an electronic carrier are regarded as instances of F32 Carrier Production Event. Typically, the production of copies of a publication (no matter whether it is a book, a sound recording, a DVD, a cartographic resource, etc.) strives to produce items all as similar as possible to a prototype that displays all the features that all the copies of the publication should also display, which is reflected in property /R27 used as source material/ F24 Publication Expression. into industrial production, of
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
plate as museum object from the copy. All the best, Martin On 30/7/2015 9:48 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Hi Regine If I understand AAT correctly, it is a thesaurus and is as such a hierarchy of concepts and can be seen as a incarnation of a hierarchy under the E55 Type. In a CRM/FRBRoo context a print is a physical object (one of the items of a series), for instance a lithography, a paper carrying an image or more. A lithography would usually be given the AAT type 'print' (or belong to this type/be a member of the set of objects that can be said to belong to the hypothetical set of all prints). This may not be what you have in mind? Regards, Christian-Emil -Original Message- From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Stein, Regine Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 3:06 PM To:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr;frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Cc: Gudrun Knaus Subject: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Hi, Did anybody go into depth with FRBRoo / CRM modelling or mapping for prints (visual works) (->http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 ;-)) , or can point us to respective work on this kind of material? Thanks! Regine -- ___ Regine Stein, Dipl.-Math. Leiterin Informationstechnik -- Deutsches Dokumentationszentrum für Kunstgeschichte Bildarchiv Foto Marburg Philipps-Universität Biegenstraße 11 D-35037 Marburg Tel.: +49 (0) 6421 2823666 Fax: +49 (0) 6421 2828931 r.st...@fotomarburg.de -- www.fotomarburg.de |www.bildindex.de ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- -- Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625| Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638| | Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr | | Center for Cultural Informatics | Information Systems Laboratory| Institute of Computer Science| Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | | N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | | Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl| -- ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ___ Regine Stein, Dipl.-Math. Leiterin Informationstechnik -- Deutsches Dokumentationszentrum für Kunstgeschichte Bildarchiv Foto Marburg Philipps-Universität Biegenstraße 11 D-35037 Marburg Tel.: +49 (0) 6421 2823666 Fax: +49 (0) 6421 2828931 r.st...@fotomarburg.de -- www.fotomarburg.de | www.bildindex.de
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Dear Regine, There has been an implicit discussion in the CRM about prints as production with particular tools. see: E12 Production Subclass of:E11 <#_E11_Modification> Modification E63 <#_E63_Beginning_of_Existence> Beginning of Existence Scope note:This class comprises activities that are designed to, and succeed in, creating one or more new items. It specializes the notion of modification into production. The decision as to whether or not an object is regarded as new is context sensitive. Normally, items are considered “new” if there is no obvious overall similarity between them and the consumed items and material used in their production. In other cases, an item is considered “new” because it becomes relevant to documentation by a modification. For example, the scribbling of a name on a potsherd may make it a voting token. The original potsherd may not be worth documenting, in contrast to the inscribed one. This entity can be collective: the printing of a thousand books, for example, would normally be considered a single event. An event should also be documented using E81 Transformation if it results in the destruction of one or more objects and the simultaneous production of others using parts or material from the originals. In this case, the new items have separate identities and matter is preserved, but identity is not. Examples: §the construction of the SS Great Britain §the first casting of the Little Mermaid from the harbour of Copenhagen §Rembrandt’s creating of the seventh state of his etching “Woman sitting half dressed beside a stove”, 1658, identified by Bartsch Number 197 (E12,E65,E81) So, the print plate undergoes "transformations" and implies the creation of an information object being present on the plate(s) and the prints, or, in more creative techniques, the information content of the plate is "incorporated" in the prints. The print plate is "used specific object" in the printing process, but a specialization of E12 may be adequate to fix the specific kind of use and its consequences of information transfer to the copies. We are also discussing a generalization of F32 Carrier Production Event Subclass of:E12 <#_E12_Production_>Production Scope note:This class comprises activities that result in instances of F54 Utilized Information Carrier coming into existence. Both the production of a series of physical objects (printed books, scores, CDs, DVDs, CD-ROMS, etc.) and the creation of a new copy of a file on an electronic carrier are regarded as instances of F32 Carrier Production Event. Typically, the production of copies of a publication (no matter whether it is a book, a sound recording, a DVD, a cartographic resource, etc.) strives to produce items all as similar as possible to a prototype that displays all the features that all the copies of the publication should also display, which is reflected in property /R27 used as source material/ F24 Publication Expression. into industrial production, of cars, tools, coins and whatever. Artistic prints with limited copies etc may not be regarded as producing "things of type XXX". A CRM extension into the world of artitstic printing may be interesting. If its only about using AAT vocabulary, Christian-Emil's remark's should be sufficient. I do not know if the AAT differentiates the plate as museum object from the copy. All the best, Martin On 30/7/2015 9:48 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Hi Regine If I understand AAT correctly, it is a thesaurus and is as such a hierarchy of concepts and can be seen as a incarnation of a hierarchy under the E55 Type. In a CRM/FRBRoo context a print is a physical object (one of the items of a series), for instance a lithography, a paper carrying an image or more. A lithography would usually be given the AAT type 'print' (or belong to this type/be a member of the set of objects that can be said to belong to the hypothetical set of all prints). This may not be what you have in mind? Regards, Christian-Emil -Original Message- From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Stein, Regine Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 3:06 PM To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr; frbr-...@ics.forth.gr Cc: Gudrun Knaus Subject: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? Hi, Did anybody go into depth with FRBRoo / CRM modelling or mapping for prints (visual works) (-> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 ;-)) , or can point us to respective work on this kind of material? Thanks! Regine -- ___ Regine Stein, Dipl.-Math. Leiterin Informationstechnik -- Deutsches Dokumentationszentrum für Kunstgeschichte Bildarchiv Foto Marburg Philipps-Universität Biegenstraße 11 D-35037 Marburg Tel.: +49 (0) 6421 2823666 Fax: +49 (0) 6421 2828931 r.st...@fotomarburg.de -- www.fotomarburg.de | www.bildindex.de ___
Re: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi Regine If I understand AAT correctly, it is a thesaurus and is as such a hierarchy of concepts and can be seen as a incarnation of a hierarchy under the E55 Type. In a CRM/FRBRoo context a print is a physical object (one of the items of a series), for instance a lithography, a paper carrying an image or more. A lithography would usually be given the AAT type 'print' (or belong to this type/be a member of the set of objects that can be said to belong to the hypothetical set of all prints). This may not be what you have in mind? Regards, Christian-Emil >-Original Message- >From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Stein, >Regine >Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 3:06 PM >To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr; frbr-...@ics.forth.gr >Cc: Gudrun Knaus >Subject: [Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints? > >Hi, > >Did anybody go into depth with FRBRoo / CRM modelling or mapping for >prints (visual works) (-> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 ;-)) , or can >point us to respective work on this kind of material? > >Thanks! > >Regine > >-- >___ > >Regine Stein, Dipl.-Math. >Leiterin Informationstechnik >-- >Deutsches Dokumentationszentrum für Kunstgeschichte Bildarchiv Foto >Marburg > >Philipps-Universität >Biegenstraße 11 >D-35037 Marburg > >Tel.: +49 (0) 6421 2823666 >Fax: +49 (0) 6421 2828931 >r.st...@fotomarburg.de >-- >www.fotomarburg.de | www.bildindex.de > >___ >Crm-sig mailing list >Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] FRBRoo / CRM for prints?
Hi, Did anybody go into depth with FRBRoo / CRM modelling or mapping for prints (visual works) (-> http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300041273 ;-)) , or can point us to respective work on this kind of material? Thanks! Regine -- ___ Regine Stein, Dipl.-Math. Leiterin Informationstechnik -- Deutsches Dokumentationszentrum für Kunstgeschichte Bildarchiv Foto Marburg Philipps-Universität Biegenstraße 11 D-35037 Marburg Tel.: +49 (0) 6421 2823666 Fax: +49 (0) 6421 2828931 r.st...@fotomarburg.de -- www.fotomarburg.de | www.bildindex.de
