Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Andrey Loskutov 
Also for the sake of entertainment: WHERE is the not supported CVS support code?
Is it available in some eclipse/github/gitlab repo?

I see it was announced to be not supported anymore in [1] and there was a bug 
about stopping building it [2] but it seems the code was just deleted (there is 
nothing about CVS in [3] anymore?), so if I understand it right no one can't 
*simply* grab the code & build against the latest platform? The Platform CVS 
home page [4] also doesn't give any hints...

[1] https://www.eclipse.org/lists/cross-project-issues-dev/msg18643.html
[2] https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=577521
[3] 
https://github.com/eclipse-platform/eclipse.platform/tree/master/team/bundles
[4] https://www.eclipse.org/eclipse/platform-cvs/

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov


> Gesendet: Dienstag, 03. Januar 2023 um 22:13 Uhr
> Von: "Stephan Herrmann" 
> An: cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
> Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - 
> SimRel build changes needed
>
> I don't think the major-minor discussion (interesting as it may be) is of any 
> relevance here, because:
> * The only grace period I could find concerns API removal and that is
>not controlled by number of releases but by number of years [1]
> * The code change in question didn't touch any true API.
> 
> Just for the sake of entertainment:
> * The broken client is not by some alien author but by the Eclipse
>Project itself, so when the Eclipse Project justifies the breakage
>by saying: "they should never have referred to this internal class",
>this blame ("they") points to the Eclipse Project itself :)
> 
> Perhaps the following observation is more relevant:
> * The "breaking" code change did not fix an existing problem [2]
>(Still anybody believing in "risk-free" changes?)
> 
> just saying,
> Stephan
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://github.com/eclipse-platform/.github/wiki/PMC-project-guidelines#api-removal-process
> 
> [2] 
> https://github.com/eclipse-platform/eclipse.platform.team/issues/29#issuecomment-1370147771
> 
> Am 03.01.23 um 15:56 schrieb Alexander Fedorov:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Great discussion.
> > 
> >  > Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
> >  > Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later
> > 
> > Formally, the 4.x releases on the page 
> > https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse are all marked as "Minor 
> > Release".
> > How did they become "major"? If they are "major" without incrementing 
> > "major" 
> > segment, then who are "minor"? What about PDE API tools?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > AF
> > 
> > 1/3/2023 5:45 PM, Andrey Loskutov пишет:
> >> Ed,
> >> you still can use CVS plugins with 4.25 platform.
> >> For the rest: there is no "free beer" anymore in platform.
> >> "Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих".
> >> If you (or anyone else) want / need CVS (or XYZ) being supported by 
> >> platform, 
> >> please consider to contribute to the CVS (XYZ) plugin maintenance.
> >> Eclipse platform is open source project and everyone can spend time or 
> >> money 
> >> to improve on some aspect of it.
> >> But one can't expect from the platform project to support every released 
> >> piece 
> >> of software "for free" forever.
> >> Kind regards,
> >> Andrey Loskutov
> >>
> >> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
> >>
> >> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
> >> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 03. Januar 2023 um 15:32 Uhr
> >> *Von:* "Ed Willink" 
> >> *An:* "Cross project issues" 
> >> *Betreff:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin 
> >> discontinuation - 
> >> SimRel build changes needed
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> 4.21 to 4.23 is two minor releases and only six months; nothing in terms 
> >> of a 
> >> transition period.
> >>
> >> It takes a change to 6.x to be two major releases.
> >>
> >>     Regards
> >>
> >>         Ed Willink
> >>
> >> On 03/01/2023 14:24, Mickael Istria wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Ed Willink  wrote:
> >>
> >> I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a
> >> proprietary business case.
> >>
> >> Well, sometimes allowing contributors to make money from their work is
> >> actually one way to try being friendly.
> >> But indeed, if one wants to do that work for free, that's even 
> >> friendlier.
> >>
> >> My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major
> >> releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is 
> >> impossibly
> >> distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions.
> >> Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so
> >> breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a 
> >> regression fix.
> >>
> >> Deprecation announced in September 2021 (4.21)
> >> Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major rele

Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Stephan Herrmann 
I don't think the major-minor discussion (interesting as it may be) is of any 
relevance here, because:

* The only grace period I could find concerns API removal and that is
  not controlled by number of releases but by number of years [1]
* The code change in question didn't touch any true API.

Just for the sake of entertainment:
* The broken client is not by some alien author but by the Eclipse
  Project itself, so when the Eclipse Project justifies the breakage
  by saying: "they should never have referred to this internal class",
  this blame ("they") points to the Eclipse Project itself :)

Perhaps the following observation is more relevant:
* The "breaking" code change did not fix an existing problem [2]
  (Still anybody believing in "risk-free" changes?)

just saying,
Stephan


[1] 
https://github.com/eclipse-platform/.github/wiki/PMC-project-guidelines#api-removal-process


[2] 
https://github.com/eclipse-platform/eclipse.platform.team/issues/29#issuecomment-1370147771


Am 03.01.23 um 15:56 schrieb Alexander Fedorov:

Hello,

Great discussion.

 > Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
 > Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later

Formally, the 4.x releases on the page 
https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse are all marked as "Minor Release".
How did they become "major"? If they are "major" without incrementing "major" 
segment, then who are "minor"? What about PDE API tools?


Regards,
AF

1/3/2023 5:45 PM, Andrey Loskutov пишет:

Ed,
you still can use CVS plugins with 4.25 platform.
For the rest: there is no "free beer" anymore in platform.
"Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих".
If you (or anyone else) want / need CVS (or XYZ) being supported by platform, 
please consider to contribute to the CVS (XYZ) plugin maintenance.
Eclipse platform is open source project and everyone can spend time or money 
to improve on some aspect of it.
But one can't expect from the platform project to support every released piece 
of software "for free" forever.

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
*Gesendet:* Dienstag, 03. Januar 2023 um 15:32 Uhr
*Von:* "Ed Willink" 
*An:* "Cross project issues" 
*Betreff:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - 
SimRel build changes needed


Hi

4.21 to 4.23 is two minor releases and only six months; nothing in terms of a 
transition period.


It takes a change to 6.x to be two major releases.

    Regards

        Ed Willink

On 03/01/2023 14:24, Mickael Istria wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Ed Willink  wrote:

I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a
proprietary business case.

Well, sometimes allowing contributors to make money from their work is
actually one way to try being friendly.
But indeed, if one wants to do that work for free, that's even friendlier.

My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major
releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is impossibly
distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions.
Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so
breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a regression 
fix.

Deprecation announced in September 2021 (4.21)
Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later
The cadence is described at https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse
Ultimately, there is a clear law of software development: unmaintained
software that no-one builds or updates against newer version of its
dependencies will die; only software that someone maintains actively
survives. It's not a matter of process here, but a matter of interest in
maintaining it. If some money can be found to boost interest from someone
in maintaining here, then we all win.

___ cross-project-issues-dev 
mailing list cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To unsubscribe from this 
list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev


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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Alexander Fedorov 

Hello,

Great discussion.

> Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
> Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later

Formally, the 4.x releases on the page 
https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse are all marked as "Minor 
Release".
How did they become "major"? If they are "major" without incrementing 
"major" segment, then who are "minor"? What about PDE API tools?


Regards,
AF

1/3/2023 5:45 PM, Andrey Loskutov пишет:

Ed,
you still can use CVS plugins with 4.25 platform.
For the rest: there is no "free beer" anymore in platform.
"Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих".
If you (or anyone else) want / need CVS (or XYZ) being supported by 
platform, please consider to contribute to the CVS (XYZ) plugin 
maintenance.
Eclipse platform is open source project and everyone can spend time or 
money to improve on some aspect of it.
But one can't expect from the platform project to support 
every released piece of software "for free" forever.

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
*Gesendet:* Dienstag, 03. Januar 2023 um 15:32 Uhr
*Von:* "Ed Willink" 
*An:* "Cross project issues" 
*Betreff:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin 
discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed


Hi

4.21 to 4.23 is two minor releases and only six months; nothing in 
terms of a transition period.


It takes a change to 6.x to be two major releases.

    Regards

        Ed Willink

On 03/01/2023 14:24, Mickael Istria wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Ed Willink 
wrote:

I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a
proprietary business case.

Well, sometimes allowing contributors to make money from their
work is actually one way to try being friendly.
But indeed, if one wants to do that work for free, that's even
friendlier.

My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major
releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is
impossibly
distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions.
Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so
breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a
regression fix.

Deprecation announced in September 2021 (4.21)
Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later
The cadence is described at
https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse
Ultimately, there is a clear law of software development:
unmaintained software that no-one builds or updates against newer
version of its dependencies will die; only software that someone
maintains actively survives. It's not a matter of process here,
but a matter of interest in maintaining it. If some money can be
found to boost interest from someone in maintaining here, then we
all win.

___ 
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list 
cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org To unsubscribe from this list, 
visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev


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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Andrey Loskutov 
Ed,

 

you still can use CVS plugins with 4.25 platform.

 

For the rest: there is no "free beer" anymore in platform.

 

"Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих".

 

If you (or anyone else) want / need CVS (or XYZ) being supported by platform, please consider to contribute to the CVS (XYZ) plugin maintenance.

Eclipse platform is open source project and everyone can spend time or money to improve on some aspect of it.

But one can't expect from the platform project to support every released piece of software "for free" forever.

 

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

 
 

Gesendet: Dienstag, 03. Januar 2023 um 15:32 Uhr
Von: "Ed Willink" 
An: "Cross project issues" 
Betreff: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed


Hi

4.21 to 4.23 is two minor releases and only six months; nothing in terms of a transition period.

It takes a change to 6.x to be two major releases.

    Regards

        Ed Willink

 

On 03/01/2023 14:24, Mickael Istria wrote:



 
 


On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Ed Willink  wrote:

I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a
proprietary business case.

 

Well, sometimes allowing contributors to make money from their work is actually one way to try being friendly.

But indeed, if one wants to do that work for free, that's even friendlier.

 

My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major
releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is impossibly
distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions.
Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so
breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a regression fix.

 

Deprecation announced in September 2021 (4.21)

Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later

Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later

 

The cadence is described at https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse

 

Ultimately, there is a clear law of software development: unmaintained software that no-one builds or updates against newer version of its dependencies will die; only software that someone maintains actively survives. It's not a matter of process here, but a matter of interest in maintaining it. If some money can be found to boost interest from someone in maintaining here, then we all win.



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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Mickael Istria 
Well, if there is a consensus that Platform should fully and stricly
implement semantic versioning, even for internal classes; we'll end up with
Platform bumping its major version every 3 months. I hope you -and everyone
else- is ready to be very careful at defining the version ranges in your
MANIFEST.MF files; or your plugins will die even sooner!
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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Ed Willink 

Hi

4.21 to 4.23 is two minor releases and only six months; nothing in terms 
of a transition period.


It takes a change to 6.x to be two major releases.

    Regards

        Ed Willink

On 03/01/2023 14:24, Mickael Istria wrote:



On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Ed Willink  wrote:

I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a
proprietary business case.


Well, sometimes allowing contributors to make money from their work is 
actually one way to try being friendly.

But indeed, if one wants to do that work for free, that's even friendlier.

My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major
releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is
impossibly
distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions.
Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so
breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a
regression fix.


Deprecation announced in September 2021 (4.21)
Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later

The cadence is described at https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse

Ultimately, there is a clear law of software development: unmaintained 
software that no-one builds or updates against newer version of its 
dependencies will die; only software that someone maintains actively 
survives. It's not a matter of process here, but a matter of interest 
in maintaining it. If some money can be found to boost interest from 
someone in maintaining here, then we all win.___
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cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
To unsubscribe from this list, visit 
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Mickael Istria 
On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Ed Willink  wrote:

> I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a
> proprietary business case.
>

Well, sometimes allowing contributors to make money from their work is
actually one way to try being friendly.
But indeed, if one wants to do that work for free, that's even friendlier.

My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major
> releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is impossibly
> distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions.
> Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so
> breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a regression fix.


Deprecation announced in September 2021 (4.21)
Removal in January 2022 for upcoming 4.23, 2 major releases later
Breakage found January 2023 on 4.26, 3 major releases later

The cadence is described at https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse

Ultimately, there is a clear law of software development: unmaintained
software that no-one builds or updates against newer version of its
dependencies will die; only software that someone maintains actively
survives. It's not a matter of process here, but a matter of interest in
maintaining it. If some money can be found to boost interest from someone
in maintaining here, then we all win.
___
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cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.org
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https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Ed Willink 

Hi

I thought that Open Source was friendly; not a facilitator for a 
proprietary business case.


The CVS deprecation was announced in September 2021. It announced 
removal of the ongoing distribution, not refactoring and breakage.


My understanding of the disciplined deprecation was that two major 
releases were required after an announcement, but since e6 is impossibly 
distant the platform has taken to breakage in minor versions. 
Nonetheless I would expect two releases on the yearly cadence so 
breakage within 18 months seems very wrong and to merit a regression fix.


    Regards

        Ed Willink

On 03/01/2023 10:46, Mickael Istria wrote:

Hello,

The older version of CVS support seem to not be working any more with 
newer Platform: 
https://github.com/eclipse-platform/eclipse.platform.team/issues/29#issuecomment-1369456296 
. While there is clearly no intention for Platform to revive CVS 
support or anything of that form. the broken or unavailable CVS 
support seems to be something that is a problem for a few people on 
StackOverflow. It may be a good business opportunity for some 
freelancers to try to get in touch with people who seem to need CVS 
support and turn those CVS users as customers who could fund a forked 
and up-to-date version of former support; or to get in touch with them 
and sell some CVS->Git migration.

Cheers,

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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] CVS support plugin discontinuation - SimRel build changes needed

2023-01-03 Thread Mickael Istria 
Hello,

The older version of CVS support seem to not be working any more with newer
Platform:
https://github.com/eclipse-platform/eclipse.platform.team/issues/29#issuecomment-1369456296
. While there is clearly no intention for Platform to revive CVS support or
anything of that form. the broken or unavailable CVS support seems to be
something that is a problem for a few people on StackOverflow. It may be a
good business opportunity for some freelancers to try to get in touch with
people who seem to need CVS support and turn those CVS users as customers
who could fund a forked and up-to-date version of former support; or to get
in touch with them and sell some CVS->Git migration.
Cheers,
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