Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 05:07:49PM -0700, coderman wrote: i am surprised this has not surfaced more often in this thread: if you need good entropy: use a hardware entropy generator! It's a shame http://entropykey.co.uk is no longer in business. I was able to procure 5 entropy keys just before they folded, and they're awesome. All the hardware specifications were open, as well as the userspace software. I ended up creating an entropy server with these keys, of which I feed all my VM entropy pools with. You can see it at http://hundun.ae.st. I'm currently working on a program to feed the random data found from an RTL-SDR dongle into the entropy pool. Then just tune to an empty frequency, and let atmospheric noise rule. At any event, I'm in agreeance: hardware true random number generators *. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o pgpoaHm7b30_S.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: ... It's a shame http://entropykey.co.uk is no longer in business. I was able to procure 5 entropy keys just before they folded, and they're awesome. Yeah, I really liked EntropyKey. I tried to place an order last year (or early this year). It was never fulfilled and no one responded. I knew the were having some troubles, but I could not determine the cause. Why did they fold? Jeff ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
[Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com (2013-08-19 13:20:45 UTC)] I'm currently working on a program to feed the random data found from an RTL-SDR dongle into the entropy pool. Then just tune to an empty frequency, and let atmospheric noise rule. The raspberry pi supposedly has a hardware RNG built in. Perhaps one could be used as a random data dongle? It's not like they're super expensive. http://scruss.com/blog/2013/06/07/well-that-was-unexpected-the-raspberry-pis-hardware-random-number-generator/ - Harald ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
They're also not super good. They barely keep up with my ssh traffic and it took ages to create a key for whatever Arch wanted (don't recall what). On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Harald Hanche-Olsen han...@math.ntnu.nowrote: [Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com (2013-08-19 13:20:45 UTC)] I'm currently working on a program to feed the random data found from an RTL-SDR dongle into the entropy pool. Then just tune to an empty frequency, and let atmospheric noise rule. The raspberry pi supposedly has a hardware RNG built in. Perhaps one could be used as a random data dongle? It's not like they're super expensive. http://scruss.com/blog/2013/06/07/well-that-was-unexpected-the-raspberry-pis-hardware-random-number-generator/ - Harald ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 09:41:20AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: Yeah, I really liked EntropyKey. I tried to place an order last year (or early this year). It was never fulfilled and no one responded. I knew the were having some troubles, but I could not determine the cause. Why did they fold? I don't know why they folded. I'm guessing lack of demand didn't justify their costs. Possibly understaffed as well. When I placed my order, it took them 8 weeks to ship it, and I was emailing anyone and everyone I could to get a status update or anything. It's too bad. They had the best product. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o pgpzrApNxrOmb.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
Hi Aaron, Here is the last I saw of them (besides the website being up): http://lists.simtec.co.uk/pipermail/entropykey-users/2013-July/thread.html. They claim to still be around (from the last in the thread): We've gone through a major crisis, but are still here... just. To say any more in public at this stage might be unwise from a legal standpoint. We currently have no manufacturing capability for ekeys but are working towards getting things up and running again. There's no timescale on that yet, I'm afraid. Jeff On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 09:41:20AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: Yeah, I really liked EntropyKey. I tried to place an order last year (or early this year). It was never fulfilled and no one responded. I knew the were having some troubles, but I could not determine the cause. Why did they fold? I don't know why they folded. I'm guessing lack of demand didn't justify their costs. Possibly understaffed as well. When I placed my order, it took them 8 weeks to ship it, and I was emailing anyone and everyone I could to get a status update or anything. It's too bad. They had the best product. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On 19/08/13 18:21 PM, Aaron Toponce wrote: On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 09:41:20AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: Yeah, I really liked EntropyKey. I tried to place an order last year (or early this year). It was never fulfilled and no one responded. I knew the were having some troubles, but I could not determine the cause. Why did they fold? I don't know why they folded. I'm guessing lack of demand didn't justify their costs. Possibly understaffed as well. When I placed my order, it took them 8 weeks to ship it, and I was emailing anyone and everyone I could to get a status update or anything. It's too bad. They had the best product. You mean, they had the best marketing :) if they had a product, you would have had it. It's a recurring theme -- there doesn't seem to be enough market demand for Hardware RNGs. I once toyed with the idea of creating an open source hardware design for a USB interface. Then, seed the market by buying a few thou. And finally, encourage random USB parts manufacturers to just throw it on to their chip. The thing is, the real estate required for a hardware RNG is fairly minimal, and USB devices can be promiscuous, offering multiple interfaces for little effort. So why not come up with a USB memory stick that also advertises a random file as a separate device? Just a pipe dream, needs a hardware geek to push it. iang ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 11:27:37AM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: Here is the last I saw of them (besides the website being up): http://lists.simtec.co.uk/pipermail/entropykey-users/2013-July/thread.html. They claim to still be around (from the last in the thread): We've gone through a major crisis, but are still here... just. To say any more in public at this stage might be unwise from a legal standpoint. We currently have no manufacturing capability for ekeys but are working towards getting things up and running again. There's no timescale on that yet, I'm afraid. That's good. I just noticed that they removed all references to the entropy key from their http://simtec.co.uk website, and http://entropykey.co.uk is down, and I have had frequent emails asking if I would be willing to sell my keys, as others putting in their own orders are not getting resolved. Hopefully they rise like a phoenix, and their product is for sale again. I would like to purchase more. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o pgpa6bK5BpJEg.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 05:07:49PM -0700, coderman wrote: i am surprised this has not surfaced more often in this thread: if you need good entropy: use a hardware entropy generator! It's a shame http://entropykey.co.uk is no longer in business. ... At any event, I'm in agreeance: hardware true random number generators... Yes, there is software to turn a sound device into one: http://www.av8n.com/turbid/paper/turbid.htm A sound device is available on many server boards and often unused, or you can add one in a slot or USB on others, ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.comwrote: Hopefully they rise like a phoenix, and their product is for sale again. I would like to purchase more. No kidding. I think someone on here told me about them and I tried to get one a bit later and couldn't. I think the company I work for might also get a few as well. It's not like they're the only ones that sell these, but they /were/ the only ones to sell USB PRNG at $800. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
if they had a product, you would have had it. It's a recurring theme -- there doesn't seem to be enough market demand for Hardware RNGs. I once toyed with the idea of creating an open source hardware design This reminds me, where are the open designs for a strong hwRNG based on the common smoke detector? People say they want a hwRNG, lots of them are free for asking right down the street at the demolition site. But where are the designs? ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
shawn wilson ag4ve...@gmail.com writes: It's not like they're the only ones that sell these, but they /were/ the only ones to sell USB PRNG at $800. You can get them for as little as $50 in the form of USB-key media players running Android. Or if you really insist on doing the whole thing yourself, get something like an EA-XPR-003 ($29 in single-unit quantities from Digikey, http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/EA-XPR-003/EA-XPR-003-ND/2410099) and solder on a zener diode and a few I2C environmental sensors for noise/unpredictability generation. I don't see what the point is though, given that there's more than enough noisy data available on a general-purpose PC. Peter. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
Sandy Harris sandyinch...@gmail.com writes: A sound device is available on many server boards and often unused, or you can add one in a slot or USB on others, A friend of mine looked at this a while back using the pretty simple technique of drawing a scatter plot from the samples. The output of most disconnected audio inputs is a long, long way from random, and in particular if they mute on lack of input or have at least a modicum of noise filtering, you just get a run of zeroes. Yes, there is software to turn a sound device into one: http://www.av8n.com/turbid/paper/turbid.htm Huge amounts of theory, no actual measurement of what you're getting from the raw data as far as I can see. The very, very brief Actual Measurement Results involved running Maurer's test on the hashed output of the generator. Sound cards are useful as a general mix in it regardless because it can't hurt source, but you'd never want to use them as your single point of failure source. Peter. ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:46 PM, Peter Gutmann pgut...@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote: You can get them for as little as $50 in the form of USB-key media players running Android. Or if you really insist on doing the whole thing yourself, get something like an EA-XPR-003 ($29 in single-unit quantities from Digikey, http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/EA-XPR-003/EA-XPR-003-ND/2410099) and solder on a zener diode and a few I2C environmental sensors for noise/unpredictability generation. Peter. If someone is interested in building something like this, you may want to start with this simple project I posted on Github a while back. https://github.com/wyager/TeensyRNG It's a simple, but (I think) pretty secure hardware PRNG that takes environmental noise and securely mixes it into an internal entropy pool. It does a few nice things like input debiasing, cryptographic mixing, etc. With a few small changes you could slap it on pretty much any microcontroller or SoC and get a pretty decent entropy stick. I used the $19 teensy and it generates about 100 bytes/sec of what is probably pretty good pseudorandom data. No guarantees, of course. I probably made some fatal mistake that would render it useless in certain contexts, but like I said, it's a place to start. Will signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
Re: [cryptography] urandom vs random
On 8/19/13 1:51 PM, grarpamp wrote: This reminds me, where are the open designs for a strong hwRNG based on the common smoke detector? People say they want a hwRNG, lots of them are free for asking right down the street at the demolition site. But where are the designs? The creator of HotBits provides a fair amount of information about his design: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/hardware3.html Although he actually recommends against using the Americium from smoke detectors, and says it is safer to purchase a commercial Cesium radiation source, which he provides links to. --Patrick ___ cryptography mailing list cryptography@randombit.net http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
