Re: [cryptography] embbeded pw kdf?

2016-08-05 Thread stef
On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 07:08:49AM -0400, Allen wrote:
> >
> > > > how would it be the best to derive a key from user input
> > >
> > > I think that depends on what you plan to do with the key, i.e., what it
> > > will be used for, and how it will be used
> >
> > how you mean? for encryption and signing i guess.
> >
> 
> If only it were that simple.  If you have no idea what you are going to use
> the keys for and the attacks you need to resist, then it's unlikely you'll
> have a secure system.

this is a theoretical question. if we have IoTs, and people start doing simple
md5 for kdf, then that is very bad if anyone can bruteforce this passphrase,
independently of how the key is used later. i'm looking for a cryptographic
primitive that makes a key out of user input. like argon, like scrypt, like
bcrypt. you know, that kind of stuff.  without any context how the kdf derived
key is used later.

> Things that might matter: Is the data stored and if so where?  Is the data
> transmitted?  When and where is the data decrypted, and by whom?  How will
> you distribute the signature verification key and associate it with an
> identity?  Is there a requirement to escrow or recover the key(s) if the
> password can't be remembered?  Etc.

this goes well beyond the concept of a kdf i believe. also this is a generic
question, what cryptographic primitive exists for these restricted
environments in general. it will be necessary, and if there's none, expect to
have md5(password) all over the place.

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Re: [cryptography] embbeded pw kdf?

2016-08-05 Thread stef
On Fri, Aug 05, 2016 at 06:47:04AM -0400, Allen wrote:
> >
> > how would it be the best to derive a key from user input
> 
> 
> I think that depends on what you plan to do with the key, i.e., what it
> will be used for, and how it will be used

how you mean? for encryption and signing i guess.

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[cryptography] embbeded pw kdf?

2016-08-05 Thread stef
dear list,

with the spectre of IoT looming over us - making us all warm and fuzzy about
our memories of security in the 80ies - i was wondering, if you have an 32bit
(not considering 8bit systems for their very limited support for crypto)
embedded device with heavily constrained processing power and memory (<0.5MB)
but still enough to perform all basic crypto algos, how would it be the best
do derive a key from user input (assuming we have a keypad e.g.) argon2 seems
to be optimized for PCs. is the best one can do in such situations a naive:

H0 = password
H_n = hash(H_n-1, device unique salt), 1<=nhttps://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt
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Re: [cryptography] [Cryptography] Show Crypto: prototype USB HSM

2016-04-14 Thread stef
On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 08:12:52PM -0700, Tony Arcieri wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Ron Garret <r...@flownet.com> wrote:
> Well, that's true, but it's also hundreds of times bigger than a token in
> the Yubikey "nano" form factor, which is actually convenient to keep
> permanently in the USB slot of a laptop. Your physical design seems pretty
> unwieldy for laptops (see also Yubico's keychain designs).
> 
> Yubikey "nano" factor tokens like the NEO-n have also supported more
> general purposes than a U2F token (e.g. CCID interface, OpenPGP applets,
> see also PIV)
> 
> I swear I'm not a paid shill for Yubico, but I'm a fan of small
> display-free hardware tokens. While a token like what you've built might
> provide Maximum Security under pessimistic threat models, its large size
> makes it look rather inconvenient to me.

coincidentally i'm hacking on a similar device for quite some time. and while
one of my design goals was to have my keys always on me, even in the sauna.
there's another hard requirement, which is kinda conflicting with having a
device so small to always keep it in the usb plugged. this requirement is to
have the unlocking of the key material depend only on the usb device not on
the usb host. if i have to enter my password to unlock the keys on the pc, any
finfisher/hackingteam malware can duplicate my password and use it itself. so
the i need some kind of passphrase entry on the device. and with this
requirement the UX actually favors bigger designs, with displays. my two
approaches are 1/ using chording a la guitar hero, you learn your passphrase
using muscle memory and play the hex digits of it on 4 buttons. this device is
about 3x7cm big. 2/ i have the board in the exact format of a nokia 3310, and
can switch the original board with my and use the nokias display and keyboard
with 16 keys for entry of passphrases. however latter design is not suitable
for saunas. the smaller design however could be enclosed like this:
http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/philips/aroflex2/img/301412/005/full.jpg
http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/philips/aroflex2/img/301411/003/full.jpg
http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/philips/aroflex2/img/301412/000/full.jpg
http://cryptomuseum.com/crypto/philips/aroflex2/img/301412/009/full.jpg

i also understand that a small device in a usb slot is nice, but it also
encourages continuous contact between the keystore and an untrusted device. i
rather unplug my keystore when it's not needed.

as a shameless plug, my designs are already in production, and will available
in small quantities this summer.

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Re: [cryptography] Design of a secure hardware dongle

2016-02-02 Thread stef
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 12:34:12PM -0800, Ron Garret wrote:
> I’m working on a design for a minimalist secure hardware dongle.  The goal is 
> to have it be usable as an HSM for the secure storage of secrets.  I have a 
> prototype running on a Teensy3, but I’ve come to the conclusion that in order 
> to really be secure there has to be some I/O on the dongle itself.  Hence, I 
> am commissioning a new design that is essentially a Teensy3 with the addition 
> of an OLED display and two push-buttons.  It will also have an on-board noise 
> source for key generation.  The resulting device will be very similar to the 
> Trezor, but not designed specifically for BitCoin.  I expect to be able to 
> sell them for about $50.
> 
> If anyone here has an interest in such a device and would like to see a 
> feature that I have not listed please let me know.

i have something like this ready. here's a video from last year when it was
"under construction": https://youtu.be/zB_l09mzMs4

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Re: [cryptography] The Intercept Releases ~1,264 pages of NSA Docs

2015-07-01 Thread stef
On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 08:51:39AM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 2, 2015, at 07:47 AM, John Young wrote:
  Mostly Xkeyscore and more.
  
  http://cryptome.org/2015/07/nsa-xks-more-intercept-15-0701.7z (643MB)
 
 Is there an md5sum of that link served via HTTPS?

i'd rather prefer the intercept itself actually releasing this as a signed
archive.

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Re: [cryptography] Javascript scrypt performance comparison

2015-05-08 Thread stef
On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 09:04:47AM +0200, Fabio Pietrosanti (naif) - lists 
wrote:
 Do you think that yescrypt-lite in JS will be a reasonable substitute of
 scrypt within a defined amount of time (we're open and interested to
 integrate latests crypto)?

according to someone close to the PHC compo, yescrypt is rich with
side-channels, i wonder how to secure js implementations against these, and
the extra sidechans that are introduced by the usage of js itself. can anyone
enlighten pls?

i start to wonder what the name globaleaks really refers to, sidechans?

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Re: [cryptography] Javascript scrypt performance comparison

2015-05-08 Thread stef
On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 04:27:19PM +0300, Solar Designer wrote:
 On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 10:34:28AM +0200, stef wrote:
  according to someone close to the PHC compo, yescrypt is rich with
  side-channels,
 
 Worded like that, it's FUD.  It's a fully expected kind of FUD, though.

sorry - although maybe fud is a strong word -, i only overheard this, without
much details, so phrased it vaguely. however many thanks for the fascinating
details you provided to understand this issue better.

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Re: [cryptography] OpenPGP in Python: Security evaluations?

2015-04-23 Thread stef
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 08:25:14AM +0200, Fabio Pietrosanti (naif) - lists 
wrote:
 Everyone, including GlobaLeaks, is using python-gnupg wrapper but that's
 an HORRIBLE software design choice (having a wrapper that fire an
 executable) and we want to fix that.

from what aspect do you consider this broken?

considering the fine research of Eran Tromer i'd say that what you are up to
seems to break things more than they were before you started fixing things.

you seem to build a system with maximum side-channels, your previous
javascript client question points in a similar direction. why?

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Re: [cryptography] Introducing SC4 -- feedback appreciated

2015-04-17 Thread stef
ohio,

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 10:56:01AM -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
 1.  It is a standalone web application.

putting keys in the browser is like putting keys in front of a dmz. browsers
are not designed for this, they are designed for delivering impressions and
services to you. the security features you find in any browser are there to
secure the revenue-stream of some companies, not for the protection of the
interests of its users. (same goes for phones), the tool might be good
(haven't checked), but the foundation it's built on is sand. you want to
isolate your keys, current end-host security does not provide much protection
against some malware in case recovery of your keys becomes a priority. you
also want to make sure the code running is authentic, with js delivered over
the net this is quite hard to do verifiably (again, not your protection,
industry revenues are the thing to protect).

cheers,s
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Re: [cryptography] Introducing SC4 -- feedback appreciated

2015-04-17 Thread stef
On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 11:56:48AM -0700, Ron Garret wrote:
 On Apr 17, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Dominik Schuermann
 domi...@dominikschuermann.de wrote:
  what problem of traditional PGP implementations did you solve?
 
 The fact that to use PGP you have to install an application.  (This is true
 for Peerio as well.)  That turns out to be too much friction for most
 people.  

that is actually true and sad, instead of new webapps, maybe the focus should
be on multi-platform installers.

 Whenever you have to install an application you have to decide
 whether or not you trust the application,

i don't see how this decision is not made in the sc4 case

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Re: [cryptography] Unbreakable crypto?

2015-03-20 Thread stef
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:12:31PM +, Dave Howe wrote:
 Or a reasonably clever and trolling satire on snakeoil products. :)

the less optimistic alternative is this being a well-crafted water-holing site
targeted at the members of this mailing-list.

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Re: [cryptography] Unbreakable crypto?

2015-03-19 Thread stef
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 03:33:25PM -0400, Kevin wrote:
 This software uses the one-time pad.  Have any of you seen this?
 http://www.unbreakable-crypto.com

i wonder if the eff is aware that they are referenced in the footer.
i'd categorise this as brilliant satire.

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Re: [cryptography] Javascript Password Hashing: Scrypt with WebCrypto API?

2015-03-15 Thread stef
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 01:02:14PM +0100, Fabio Pietrosanti (naif) - lists 
wrote:
 On 3/11/15 12:42 PM, stef wrote:
  against state level actors. i mean globaleaks clearly has state-level actors
  in their threat-model, right?
 No, GlobaLeaks doesn't consider in it's threat model an NSA-like actor.

observe, how the question regarding state-level actors is dodged by reducing
the set to nsa-like (what does that even mean?)

and knowing the dutch, the hungarian and the serbian globaleaks users
personally, i can assure you they are operating outside your threat-model, and
i'm not sure they are aware of it.

 Check the Threat Model link on https://globaleaks.org in the footer to
 get a better insight.

i now understand why you did not link this directly:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1niYFyEar1FUmStC03OidYAIfVJf18ErUFwSWCmWBhcA/pub

seriously on google? your threatmodel seems indeed quite limited.

you should be much more open about your limits.

your actions and words to not instill trust in your product.

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Re: [cryptography] Javascript Password Hashing: Scrypt with WebCrypto API?

2015-03-11 Thread stef
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:53:35AM +0100, Fabio Pietrosanti (naif) - lists 
wrote:
 at GlobaLeaks we're undergoing implementation of client-side encryption
 with server-side storage of PGP Private keys.

i didn't get the memo, that js in browsers is now the way to best mitigate
against state level actors. i mean globaleaks clearly has state-level actors
in their threat-model, right?

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Re: [cryptography] Javascript Password Hashing: Scrypt with WebCrypto API?

2015-03-11 Thread stef
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 01:02:14PM +0100, Fabio Pietrosanti (naif) - lists 
wrote:
  against state level actors. i mean globaleaks clearly has state-level actors
  in their threat-model, right?
 No, GlobaLeaks doesn't consider in it's threat model an NSA-like actor.

there's other state level actors.

 GlobaLeaks it's designed to be a Whistleblowing framework that can be
 used in very different context, from WildLife Crime Activism up to
 Anticorruption in Serbia up to PubLeaks-like Journalism in Netherland,
 keeping the maximum level of security achievable for a specific context
 of use.

serbia sounds like a state level actor, and i heard that the publeaks people
also get attention from the local services.

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Re: [cryptography] Javascript Password Hashing: Scrypt with WebCrypto API?

2015-03-11 Thread stef
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 01:28:27PM +0100, Fabio Pietrosanti (naif) - lists 
wrote:
  serbia sounds like a state level actor, and i heard that the publeaks people
  also get attention from the local services.
 The reality is that each scenarios have it's own peculiarities, really,
 it would be a very long and complex discussion that require few hours to
 analyze each scenarios details.

let's stick with the webcrypto aspect, and the fact that both governments
control their own CA in the browsers. the dutch CA being even historically
shared with some other parties.

 PubLeaks in the Netherland has been deployed with Tails as Leaktops
 for the journalists for end-point security, with GlobaLeaks being hosted
 by a well-known third party within the activists community (GreenHost),
 with servers deployed in a geo-political smart way, with service
 contract done with the PubLeaks Foundation (a legal entity created on
 purpose) to be resilient against certain kind of legal threats.

how does that protect against active covert attacks? luckily parallel
constructions will save your conscience from feeling responsible.

 OCCRPLeaks do require instead, in Bosnia and balkan-area, to leverage
 plausible deniability by embedding GlobaLeaks within existing HTTPS
 site (https://occrp.org) because plausible deniability has been
 considered, after threat-modelling with the stakeholders, more relevant
 than just saying Hey, use Tor to access this .onion site .

how is using stuff over ssl in the country where the adversary controls a
local CA plausible deniability? 

 When you work supporting the many initiatives you'll just realize that
 many time, the cryptographic/technical implementation side of a
 Whistleblowing initiative's security, is a minor part and shall be
 considered in a broader Security threat model.

absolutely.

 Given that the picture is complex and variegate enough, we are providing
 such a differentiated set of security levels, from a technical and
 procedural point of view.

so you allow your clients to shoot themselves in the foot.

 The way you work in a place where The rule of law is effective, it's

that's a quite bold assumption even in europe today :/

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Re: [cryptography] Crypto Vulns

2015-03-07 Thread stef
On Sat, Mar 07, 2015 at 10:23:40AM -0500, John Young wrote:
 No 1 vulnerability of crypto is the user

absolutely: pls enjoy this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

which i also packed into an ebook for your convenience:
http://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/cognitive_biases_-_layer8_security_advisories.epub
http://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/cognitive_biases_-_layer8_security_advisories.pdf

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Re: [cryptography] random number generator

2014-11-22 Thread stef
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:13:31PM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
 The question is, does all this entropy show up in Jytter?  I rather think it
 does.

the question is: is your adversary nature, or human nature?

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Re: [cryptography] Email encryption for the wider public

2014-09-18 Thread stef
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 09:06:53AM +0200, Henry Augustus Chamberlain wrote:
 currently able to use email encryption at all! I think both concerns
 are fair, and both are worth trying to solve.

let me summarize (and ask you to reread and understand) grapamps response to
you: email is dead.

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Re: [cryptography] Email encryption for the wider public

2014-09-18 Thread stef
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:13:04AM +0200, Krisztián Pintér wrote:
 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 10:57 AM, stef s...@ctrlc.hu wrote:
  let me summarize (and ask you to reread and understand) grapamps response to
  you: email is dead.
 
 email is not dead, it is a zombie that walks around for at least 20
 years.

i like your analogy :)

is there a non-zero probability that zombie analogies are the opposite to car
analogies?

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Re: [cryptography] Question About Best Practices for Personal File Encryption

2014-08-16 Thread stef
On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 06:26:28PM -0500, Mark Thomas wrote:
 Am I on the right track? If so does anyone know of a helpful guide to get 
 started with OpenSSL on the command line besides the man pages?

last time i checked openssl does no authenticated encryption on the command 
line.

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Re: [cryptography] Stealthy Dopant-Level Hardware Trojans

2014-06-22 Thread stef
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 01:46:44AM -0700, coderman wrote:
 On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 2:49 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote:
  ...
  http://people.umass.edu/gbecker/BeckerChes13.pdf
 
  Stealthy Dopant-Level Hardware Trojans ?
 
  Georg T. Becker1
 
 this paper has disappeared from the net.  any one have copies?

http://sgnsa2lp64l6v3l6.onion/BeckerChes13.pdf

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Re: [cryptography] [Ach] Better Crypto

2014-01-07 Thread stef
On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 11:39:42AM +0100, L. Aaron Kaplan wrote:
 
 On Jan 7, 2014, at 11:24 AM, stef s...@ctrlc.hu wrote:
 
  On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 11:18:45AM +0100, L. Aaron Kaplan wrote:
   1. We will have three config options: cipher String A,B,C ( generic safe 
  config, maximum interoperability (== this also makes the mozilla people 
  happy then) and finally a super-hardened setting (with reduced 
  compatibility)).
  
  lacking the context on 
  this also makes the mozilla people happy then
 
 There were some discussions on the bettercrypto list regarding also 
 supporting Windows XP (which means RC4 or 3DES).

interesting sudden context switch from mozillans to microsoft-victims. a
distraction?

 And there was a very good argument that a *lot* of people still use XP and 
 for many sites it is not an option to exclude them. On the other hand, WinXP 
 is end of life. It's a hard choice

for you it's an easy choice. your products only feature is to provide
security, if you forfeit that feature for interoperability, then you have not
achieved anything. i'd start looking into who actually proposed that, and what
are his intelligence agency or corporate ties. this all sounds to me like the
banking crisis, too-big-to-fail, so let's do some security theater, but
otherwise leave all the downgrade attack paths open.

 So, I guess that was a really good reason and personally I don't see any 
 reason so far to assume:

you have not produced any argument - only a distraction -  against that 
assumption.

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Re: [cryptography] Can we move to a forum, please?

2013-12-24 Thread stef
On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 11:54:51PM +, Malcolm Matalka wrote:
  - Nobody complaining about top posting, trimming cruft and other such 
  nonsense

calling etiquette nonsense

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Re: [cryptography] Quality of HAVEGE algorithm for entropy?

2013-11-29 Thread stef
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:22:29AM +0100, Joachim Strömbergson wrote:
 What I was trying to say is that Havege running on MCUs (AVR, AVR32,
 PIC, PIC32, ARM Cortex M0 etc) where instructions in general takes the
 same number of cycles to execute and where caches are few (few levels),
 have simple or even no replacement policy (it is done by SW control),
 the assumptions in Havege is not really present. And that this change in
 physical setup _should_ affect the variance measured. But again, I
 haven't tested it yet.

howdy, i tried out the default haveged code found under:
http://www.irisa.fr/caps/projects/hipsor/misc.php#measure

on an arm cortex m3 stm32f2xx and streamed the results over uart and plotted
them here:
https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/stm32f2x-jitter.png

prefetch, data and instruction cache where enabled.

cheers,s

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Re: [cryptography] Allergy for client certificates

2013-10-09 Thread stef
On Wed, Oct 09, 2013 at 02:50:59PM +0100, Michael Rogers wrote:
 This touches on another question I've been meaning to ask you: what
 happens if a user creates an account from a client machine, thus
 installing a client cert on that machine, and then wants to use the
 account from another machine?

i guess the user has to use the crappy ui of the browser to extract it. while
the browser vendors are polishing rounded transparent tabs instead.

 Also, what happens if a user installs a client cert on a machine and
 then walks away, leaving their client cert exposed to the next user?
 With passwords there's an expectation that once you've logged out, the
 next user can't log into your account. But client certs break that
 expectation.

indeed, client auth is bound to the browser in this sense and needs to be
understood by the users, this is a cognitive entry barrier to usage.

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Re: [cryptography] no-keyring public

2013-08-26 Thread stef
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 08:13:51AM -0400, Matthew Orgass wrote:
 On 2013-08-25 alser...@inbox.ru wrote:
 On Sat, 24 Aug 2013, Krisztián Pintér wrote:
 has anybody done something like that already? does it have a name?
 
 There was a ECC program from the previous century that worked as you
 described: the private key was derived solely from the user password.
 
 Seccure: http://point-at-infinity.org/seccure/

i 3 seccure. the lack of a good kdf was easily fixed with scrypt.

 It could even do ECDH.
 I wish there were more simple command line crypto utilities.

good memories. so i just added ECDH also to my new tool:
https://github.com/stef/pbp

which is based on libsodium, based on nacl. also i created a new wrapper for
python, pysodium:
https://github.com/stef/pysodium

hope you enjoy and play around with simple command line crypto utilities.

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Re: [cryptography] Jingle and Otr

2013-08-21 Thread stef
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 01:47:33PM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
 The Jitsi FAQ https://jitsi.org/Documentation/FAQ says that chat
 sessions are protected by OTR, which implies that nothing else is.

i think before considering using jitsi-s otr:
http://lists.jitsi.org/pipermail/users/2013-July/004370.html
http://lists.jitsi.org/pipermail/dev/2011-May/001484.html

someone needs to contribute a port to otr4j or evaluate their inhouse
implementation.

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Re: [cryptography] random permutations

2013-05-17 Thread stef
On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 10:01:09PM -0700, 
travis+ml-rbcryptogra...@subspacefield.org wrote:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_shuffle
 
 Anything that works without a table?
 I'm assuming you won't have a key to represent all (2^n)! permutations so...
 For even a large subset of all permutations?

i have this naive algo where i generate a random number with n! as an upper
limit, and then convert the resulting number into base n, where each digit
then is an index to the unshuffled/ordered list of all elements. dunno if that
fits your expectations.

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Re: [cryptography] Rocra malware targets files encrypted by Acid Cryptofiler

2013-01-16 Thread stef
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:37:57AM -0500, Kevin W. Wall wrote:
 I'm guessing that means that this Acid Cryptofiler is some
 severely flawed crypto software (or was written by the NSA and
 has some back door or side channel).

i guess it's french origin:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_Cryptofiler

regards,s

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