Re: [css-d] Browsers to Test with

[Yevgeny Nyden]

I think it all depends on the available budget and the project goals. Who
wouldn't want to have his/her site to be viewable in all browsers and with
no glitches at all? ... but time and money constrains must dictate
priorities. Once I worked on a small-to-medium size project where we only
had resources to support IE (6 at the time).

Yev

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:19 AM, david  wrote:

> Felix Miata wrote:
>
>> On 2011/01/12 19:56 (GMT+0100) Gabriele Romanato composed:
>>
>>  Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of
>>> Seamonkey? ;-)
>>>
>>
>> Family trees:
>> 1-IE
>> 2-Gecko [1]
>>SeaMonkey [Mozilla Suite renamed]
>>Firefox [progeny of Mozilla aka Gecko]
>>a bunch of others
>> 3a-KHTML
>>Konqueror
>> 3b-Webkit (a fork of KHTML)
>>Safari
>>Chrome
>> *-Opera
>>
>> Since rendering improvements get backported into KHTML from Webkit, one
>> can consider them equivalent as long as the versions are the same age.
>>
>>  Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league
>>> browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.
>>>
>>
>> SeaMonkey is as major as major gets, while testing in Safari is same as
>> testing in Chrome as long as the little nits (e.g. font smoothing; age) are
>> kept equivalent. One of each of the 3 majors is enough. There is no Safari
>> on Linux, while there is as a practical matter no KHTML on anything other
>> than *nix. Opera, a minor though highly compliant player, is generally as
>> compliant as compliant gets, so testing on it should be considered
>> (unnecessary) brownie points unless its tiny share somehow manages to get
>> differently compliant.
>>
>>  Minority browsers get you mad. I used to have up to 10 browsers on my
>>> computer, and once I got access to the access logs of the sites I was
>>> developing I got struck by the fact that almost all users (98%-99%)
>>> were using either IE flavors or Firefox.
>>>
>>
>>
>> http://bclary.com/blog/2006/04/21/browser-detection-part-duh-will-they-ever-learn/
>> http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
>>
>
> Note that REGIONALLY, IE use has dropped quite a bit in Europe, according
> to EU figures ...
>
> Also, expressing browser market share in percentage means you need to
> convert that into the equivalent number of users before you decide if you
> want to ignore Opera's 2% or not. 2% of 200 million people is a lot of
> potential customers to ignore!
>
>  [1] http://geckoisgecko.org/
>>
>
> With links to very useful information, too.
>
> Question that maybe gets this back on topic for CSS-D: Is there a way to
> check that a particular browser understands or ignores a particular CSS
> feature/attribute you're using?
>
> --
> David
> gn...@hawaii.rr.com
> authenticity, honesty, community
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Alan Gresley]

On 14/01/2011 10:48 AM, Richard Mason wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Alan Gresley wrote




| This specification has been written with two types of readers in mind:
| CSS authors and CSS implementors. We hope the specification will
provide
| authors with the tools they need to write efficient, attractive, and
| accessible documents, without overexposing them to CSS's implementation
| details. Implementors, however, should find all they need to build
| conforming user agents. The specification begins with a general
| presentation of CSS and becomes more and more technical and specific
| towards the end.


I said the specs were 'aimed' at programmers, not 'exclusive to'.



No, the spec is aimed equally to both authors and UA implementers.

I as an author became better at CSS by reading the specs. I as a CSS 
tester became better in testing the implementations by reading the 
specs. I as a CSS WG list contributor became better at giving feedback 
on the specs by reading the specs.


I am not a programmer and I wouldn't know the first thing about building 
a UA since I not even sure what web language or languages are involved 
in the process.



--
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Richard Mason]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Alan Gresley wrote




 | This specification has been written with two types of readers in mind:
 | CSS authors and CSS implementors. We hope the specification will 
provide

 | authors with the tools they need to write efficient, attractive, and
 | accessible documents, without overexposing them to CSS's 
implementation

 | details. Implementors, however, should find all they need to build
 | conforming user agents. The specification begins with a general
 | presentation of CSS and becomes more and more technical and specific
 | towards the end.


I said the specs were 'aimed' at programmers, not 'exclusive to'. Your 
quote confirms this:
"Implementors, however, should find all they need to build conforming 
user agents."
So, a Software Requirement Specification also made available to CSS 
authors


--
Richard Mason
http://www.emdpi.com
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Re: [css-d] form/ul layout weird in IE

[Rich M]

On 01/12/2011 02:04 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

   Any browser with a larger minimum font size than yours.

   Have the last lines cut off is OK?



Point taken, it wasn't clear to me that the cut-off wasn't just part of 
the screen shot until now.
I'm trying to think of a way so that the four buttons can each take 
up about 25% of the width of the form so they don't overflow like 
that though.


   width: 25% (minus margins and padding).


Oops, yes that's good.

Still though, I'm struggling with my main issue here that in IE elements 
in the form itself are getting squashed horizontally.


Thanks,
Rich
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[css-d] [test] CSS and iframes

[Gabriele Romanato]

There are many possible ways to apply this test in a real case- 
scenario like:


1. website previews
2. dynamic content
3. active content

http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/css-and-iframes.html

this test clearly demonstrates the benefits of fluid css layouts.

HTH :-)


http://www.css-zibaldone.com
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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Re: [css-d] can CSS constitute an HTML error?

[David Laakso]

On 1/13/11 10:30 AM, Barney Carroll wrote:




  




  


  


  



Regards,
Barney Carroll




I think I need another cup of coffee:-) .
~d


--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/

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Re: [css-d] can CSS constitute an HTML error?

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh wrote:


I interpret that to mean "inline elements may not contain block
elements."


That’s a correct conclusion regarding HTML markup. But it is a purely 
syntactic matter and as such completely external to CSS. You could apply 
CSS, for example, on a basic XML file with no document type definition, no 
nesting rules (apart from generic XML well-formedness constraints), with no 
such concept as “inline element” or “block element.”


The HTML and CSS concepts (of “inline” and “block”) are independent of each 
other. There’s just the connection that when a CSS stylesheet is applied to 
an HTML document, certain HTML elements will have display: block by default. 
This can be characterized as applying default stylesheet.



But with CSS and the display attribute we can change display from
inline to block, or versa visa, for any element.


Yes, and you can do such things e.g. for CSS to be applied to a basic XML 
file (where all elements have display: inline unless you set otherwise).



So, if my CSS says
 xx , is that an error of any kind?


It does not violate any HTML or CSS specification. Whether it is an error or 
somehow questionable as a pragmatic issue is debatable. If you ask me, I 
would say that authors should usually avoid setting the display property of 
an HTML element to something that is not in harmony with its nature and 
properties as defined in HTML. But I wouldn’t go as far as saying that such 
settings are always wrong. For example, it is a common trick to set display: 
block for an image to avoid some undesired browser behavior.


--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 


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Re: [css-d] can CSS constitute an HTML error?

[Barney Carroll]

Hiya Sandy.

CSS can't create an HTML error: if your HTML is well-formed and valid, then
the resources it calls can have all sorts of inconsistencies and failings
that may affect the eventual whole package of the rendered page, but the
HTML itself will remain well-formed and valid.

Using CSS to instantiate a block level element nested inside an inline
element as you describe violates core concepts of the box model, and will
lead to erratic & unpredictable rendering, so I wouldn't recommend it.

Making traditionally inline elements display as block-level elements is not
a problem if their immediate container element is also block-level. So the
following examples, while exotic, will not cause errors layout errors:




 




 


 


 



Setting navigation links as block-level elements is particularly popular.

Regards,
Barney Carroll

barney.carr...@gmail.com
07594 506 381


On 13 January 2011 15:13, Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh <
sandy.pittendr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I found the following on the net:
>
> *Content model*
>
> Generally, block-level elements may contain inline
> elements and other block-level elements. *Generally, inline elements may
> contain
> only data and other inline elements.* Inherent in this structural
> distinction
> is the idea that block elements create “larger” structures than inline
> elements.
>
> I interpret that to mean "inline elements may not contain block elements."
>
> But with CSS and the display attribute we can change display from inline to
> block, or versa visa, for any element.  So, if my CSS says  style="display: block;"> xx , is that an error of any kind? And if so,
> it it an HTML error or a CSS error.  I tried to look this up W3.org, but
> I'm
> going to have to work on those grammar-like specifications.  They are not
> easy for beginners to read.
>
> --
>
> /*  Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh  >--oO0> */
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[css-d] can CSS constitute an HTML error?

[Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh]

I found the following on the net:

*Content model*

Generally, block-level elements may contain inline
elements and other block-level elements. *Generally, inline elements may
contain
only data and other inline elements.* Inherent in this structural
distinction
is the idea that block elements create “larger” structures than inline
elements.

I interpret that to mean "inline elements may not contain block elements."

But with CSS and the display attribute we can change display from inline to
block, or versa visa, for any element.  So, if my CSS says  xx , is that an error of any kind? And if so,
it it an HTML error or a CSS error.  I tried to look this up W3.org, but I'm
going to have to work on those grammar-like specifications.  They are not
easy for beginners to read.

-- 

/*  Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh  >--oO0> */
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

> And even if you wrap them inside an inner  element, Font Finder
> reports ASCII as being in use for the inner element, even though the
> element contains no character representable in the font.

Argh : a potentially useful tool, perhaps, but by no means a perfect one.
Philip Taylor
--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:


Ulrike Eikermann wrote:


Here is another Firefox Addon (Font Finder), which lets you click on
elements and tells you the font being rendered. Also it allows you
disable font families, which is useful when testing font stacks.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4415/


What happens if font substition happens /within the element/.


Font Finder reports the font as being a declared one (the one that applies 
according to cascading rules), even it is in fact not used and cannot be 
used.


By the way, if you install Font Finder without installing Firebug, then Font 
Finder superficially "works" but always reports the first font as being 
used, even if a font with that name does not exist in the system att. 
Apparently it relies on Firebug in finding out the cascade result.



Ulrike : for example, if I write

abcd天頂の囲碁1234

and the font ASCII has only the 256 glyphs of the standard ASCII
character set, the browser will be forced to use substitution for
the Japanese characters, yet these do not form an element in their
own right.


And even if you wrap them inside an inner  element, Font Finder 
reports ASCII as being in use for the inner element, even though the element 
contains no character representable in the font.


But if I copy and paste the text in WordPad, it tells me that the font 
actually used is (in this case) MS PGothic. This is not surprising, as that 
happens to be the default sans-serif font for Japanese characters in my 
Firefox.


--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 


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Re: [css-d] Floats followed by paragraphs

[Del Wegener]

See a sample here:
http://www.alliedcorrosion.com/products/manufacturer_introduction.php
Then click on "BOX test" at the top of the menu on the left.


  Do you have a reason for not giving us the correct URL?
  

#container1 p
{
clear:both;
}

That fix worked fine. So does giving the paragraph a class with the style 
clear both. I like yours better, but for the sake of understanding---

Now I have two follow-up questions.
1)  If I add a second paragraph, I don't need to give it the style clear 
both.

Does the first one "reset" the normal flow?

2)  This is what is currently illustrated.  If I comment out the container1 
div, so that the pictures and paragraphs are in the content div, the 
paragraphs get pushed down as far as the bottom of the left menu (which is 
not in the content div).

Why does that happen?

Finally, I did not give the "correct" URL because I have an uncorrected 
error with a "php session start".


Del


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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Rory Bernstein]

> On 12 January 2011 01:53, Duncan Hill  wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 19:32:31 -, Rory Bernstein 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> When I have a series of fonts being called in a font-family rule, how do I
>>> know which one is the one being chosen?
>>> 
>> 
>> 'FireFontFamily' [1] addon for the Firebug [2] extension with FireFox
>> 
>> [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/111672/
>> [2] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1843/
>> 
>> Duncan
> 
> Here is another Firefox Addon (Font Finder), which lets you click on
> elements and tells you the font being rendered. Also it allows you
> disable font families, which is useful when testing font stacks.
> 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4415/
> 
> Regards, Ulrike


This is a great add-on, I just installed it, and it seems to be just what I was 
looking for. Thank you so much for the info.
Best,
Rory
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:16 PM, Richard Mason wrote:

> I bet they're not either, but the CSS specifications are actually "Software 
> Requirement Specifications" aimed at programmers rather than 'your' author 
> the style sheet producer.

ahem:

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/about.html#reading
[quote]
This specification has been written with two types of readers in mind: CSS 
authors and CSS implementors. …
[/quote]

Whenever CSS specs & docs refer to the people who build rendering engines, they 
talk about implementors

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Alan Gresley]

On 13/01/2011 10:16 PM, Richard Mason wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote



The CSS specs don't assume that Author = Programmer
Author is commonly understood as 'someone who writes a stylesheet'
(I bet that most people following css-d as not programmers)



I bet they're not either, but the CSS specifications are actually
"Software Requirement Specifications" aimed at programmers rather than
'your' author the style sheet producer. The specifications are written
so that a programmer (software author) can write a browser that handles
a 'sheet' written in a particular format and to a given set of rules.





  | This specification has been written with two types of readers in mind:
  | CSS authors and CSS implementors. We hope the specification will 
provide

  | authors with the tools they need to write efficient, attractive, and
  | accessible documents, without overexposing them to CSS's 
implementation

  | details. Implementors, however, should find all they need to build
  | conforming user agents. The specification begins with a general
  | presentation of CSS and becomes more and more technical and specific
  | towards the end.


BTW, I though this thread was about font.


--
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ulrike Eikermann wrote:


Here is another Firefox Addon (Font Finder), which lets you click on
elements and tells you the font being rendered. Also it allows you
disable font families, which is useful when testing font stacks.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4415/


What happens if font substition happens /within the element/.
Ulrike : for example, if I write

abcd天頂の囲碁1234

and the font ASCII has only the 256 glyphs of the standard ASCII
character set, the browser will be forced to use substitution for
the Japanese characters, yet these do not form an element in their
own right.

Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Richard Mason]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote


On Jan 13, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Richard Mason wrote:

Speaking of CSS specs I'm always surprised that the spec authors 
don't get called out for the nonsense they put in them. A 
specification should tell an author (a programmer) what is required. 
It should not tell them how to do it or explain computer fundamentals,


The CSS specs don't assume that Author = Programmer
Author is commonly understood as 'someone who writes a stylesheet'
(I bet that most people following css-d as not programmers)



I bet they're not either, but the CSS specifications are actually 
"Software Requirement Specifications" aimed at programmers rather than 
'your' author the style sheet producer. The specifications are written 
so that a programmer (software author) can write a browser that handles 
a 'sheet' written in a particular format and to a given set of rules.


A programmer can produce a browser that handles a style sheet when they 
have the formal specification, and don't need a User Manual (a book on 
CSS). On the other hand people who do have a User Manual can produce 
perfectly correct style sheets without ever reading the formal 
specifications.


--
Richard Mason
http://www.emdpi.com
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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Ulrike Eikermann]

On 12 January 2011 01:53, Duncan Hill  wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 19:32:31 -, Rory Bernstein 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> When I have a series of fonts being called in a font-family rule, how do I
>> know which one is the one being chosen?
>>
>
> 'FireFontFamily' [1] addon for the Firebug [2] extension with FireFox
>
> [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/111672/
> [2] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1843/
>
> Duncan

Here is another Firefox Addon (Font Finder), which lets you click on
elements and tells you the font being rendered. Also it allows you
disable font families, which is useful when testing font stacks.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4415/

Regards, Ulrike
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Re: [css-d] Browsers to Test with

[david]

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/01/12 19:56 (GMT+0100) Gabriele Romanato composed:


Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of
Seamonkey? ;-)


Family trees:
1-IE
2-Gecko [1]
SeaMonkey [Mozilla Suite renamed]
Firefox [progeny of Mozilla aka Gecko]
a bunch of others
3a-KHTML
Konqueror
3b-Webkit (a fork of KHTML)
Safari
Chrome
*-Opera

Since rendering improvements get backported into KHTML from Webkit, one 
can consider them equivalent as long as the versions are the same age.



Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league
browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.


SeaMonkey is as major as major gets, while testing in Safari is same as 
testing in Chrome as long as the little nits (e.g. font smoothing; age) 
are kept equivalent. One of each of the 3 majors is enough. There is no 
Safari on Linux, while there is as a practical matter no KHTML on 
anything other than *nix. Opera, a minor though highly compliant player, 
is generally as compliant as compliant gets, so testing on it should be 
considered (unnecessary) brownie points unless its tiny share somehow 
manages to get differently compliant.



Minority browsers get you mad. I used to have up to 10 browsers on my
computer, and once I got access to the access logs of the sites I was
developing I got struck by the fact that almost all users (98%-99%)
were using either IE flavors or Firefox.


http://bclary.com/blog/2006/04/21/browser-detection-part-duh-will-they-ever-learn/ 


http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php


Note that REGIONALLY, IE use has dropped quite a bit in Europe, 
according to EU figures ...


Also, expressing browser market share in percentage means you need to 
convert that into the equivalent number of users before you decide if 
you want to ignore Opera's 2% or not. 2% of 200 million people is a lot 
of potential customers to ignore!



[1] http://geckoisgecko.org/


With links to very useful information, too.

Question that maybe gets this back on topic for CSS-D: Is there a way to 
check that a particular browser understands or ignores a particular CSS 
feature/attribute you're using?


--
David
gn...@hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
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[css-d] CSS Design Patterns

[Gabriele Romanato]

This is a work in progress. If someone knows some other patterns in  
use, please let me know:


http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/css-design-patterns.html

HTH :-)


http://www.css-zibaldone.com
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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