Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:07 AM, Karl DeSaulniers k...@designdrumm.com wrote: On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:04 AM, Karl DeSaulniers k...@designdrumm.com wrote: On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:01 AM, Crest Christopher crestchristop...@gmail.com wrote: I think percentages are based on their parents size and not the browser. What do you mean ? Karl DeSaulniers wrote: I think percentages are based on their parents size and not the browser. Correct me if I am wrong. Best, Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com I mean that when you set say a width of 50% to a paragraph that is in a div that has a width of 110px, the paragragraph is going to be 50% of 110px and not the browser window. Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com Although, I think there may be an exception to that rule when mixing in absolute positioning and floating. But not 100% on that. Best, Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com Looks like there are some exceptions. Have a look see... There ARE a few that took on the browser width, but the majority stuck with their parent. http://designdrumm.com/percentage_test.html Best, Karl DeSaulniers Design Drumm http://designdrumm.com __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
apr 9 2014 08:48 Karl DeSaulniers k...@designdrumm.com: Looks like there are some exceptions. Have a look see... There ARE a few that took on the browser width, but the majority stuck with their parent. http://designdrumm.com/percentage_test.html Which are the exceptions you mean? __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Le 9 avr. 2014 à 15:48, Karl DeSaulniers k...@designdrumm.com a écrit : Looks like there are some exceptions. Have a look see... There ARE a few that took on the browser width, but the majority stuck with their parent. http://designdrumm.com/percentage_test.html 1. An element that is position: absolute with a percentage width takes its width from its nearest _positioned_ parent [ex1] else from the root element [ex2] see: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-width http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#abs-non-replaced-width [ex1] div style=position: relative; width: 10em p style=position: absolute width: 50%; // computed value for width: 5em [ex2] body div style=width: 10em p style=position: absolute width: 50%; // computed value for width: half the width of the browser window For ultimate fun in this: [ex3] div style=position: absolute; // no width specified, shrink-to-fit p style=position: absolute width: 50%; // computed value for width: undefined 2. An element that has position:absolute and float: left (or right) will have as computed value: float: none; see http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#dis-pos-flo (bullet point 2) Philippe -- Philippe Wittenbergh http://l-c-n.com __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] CSS Joke
Here is something for the day https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qeaPTdWSgXo/UVVuFe80bvI/U1o/D0zkQ_7XZBw/w640-h480-no/Q3cUg29.gif. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qeaPTdWSgXo/UVVuFe80bvI/U1o/D0zkQ_7XZBw/w640-h480-no/Q3cUg29.gif __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Howdy Crest,
~~~
Tuesday, April 8, 2014, 9:24:14 PM (USA 'Somewhere on-the-road time-zone'),
you wrote the message that appears below.
My reply appears here and/or interspersed within your message.
~~~
Em are the best solution for font-sizes, from everything that I know.
Pixels I don't know if pixels should be used at all and percentages from
what I know are relative to the browser size, is this correct or am I
mis-understanding something.
Newbie here, have been a member for only a few days.
I had been using 'small', or 'medium', for general text and links, and then %
for other (larger, i.e. h1, h2, c.) elements.
I use Firefox as my main browser, but also keep latest versions of IE, Opera,
Chrome, Safari, and Maxthon for testing.
I have found an issue with Opera (v12.16 is installed) when using 'small' vs %.
Using 'small', when viewing a site in a less-than-full-screen window, decreasing
the width of the window can lead to a link text wrapping rather than
proportionally shrinking with the column. If I define the link text as '87.5%',
the link does not wrap, but shrinks as I would want/expect.
I do not see this action in other browsers - all the others that I test with
keep the link proportional and it does not wrap.
Link, to see this in action:
http://www.rmaba.org/rmaba_members2014.html
Using Opera, shrink horizontal width and watch the link titled 'Colorado Springs
Area', in the right-hand column. At the moment, text in that box is defined as
'small'. If I change that to '87.5%', then that link text will not wrap - the
same as occurs in other browsers regardless of using 'small' or the %.
G'Jim c):{-
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[css-d] Equal-length columns - display: table-cell OK?
Currently, my website (Freelance Traveller, http://www.freelancetraveller.com) has slightly messy CSS to give the following appearance (view fixed font): ++ |Header | ++---+ |Nav |Content| |Menu| | || | || | || | || | || | ++---+ |Footer | ++ The header and nav menu have black background; the content is an off-white background, and the footer has a thick border-left to make it appear as though the nav background extends to the bottom. In order to make the design work, the content ended up with a thick margin-left and border-left. Right now, the nav and the borders on the content and footer are sized in px. I was going to simply change to ems, but then I thought that it would be a good idea to clean up the CSS _if I could_. It took me quite a bit of work to find a _simple_ way of doing it that would extend the shorter of the two columns (nav or content, usually nav) _without_ nasty hacks like resetting padding and margins by thousands of pixels - or at least something that _appeared_ to do it. The solution I found was display: table-cell. The HTML structure is currently div class=masthead/div div class=navdiv div class=content/div div class=footer/div Those classes COULD be converted to IDs, as there's never more than one of each. I haven't done that yet, as there's over 1000 pages that I'd have to do it on. However, I use a linked style sheet, so I would just have to change the one CSS file. The key change would be to change the nav and content divs to display: table-cell; this would appear to allow me to cut out some fiddling of margins and padding that were needed because floating the nav (as I had been doing) took it out of the document flow. There are some other changes that I am contemplating. However, I wanted to try to tap the collected wisdom here before doing so. Thus, some questions: First, is display: table-cell a viable solution for the layout issue? caniuse suggests that if I don't feel a need to support IE7 or earlier, I should be OK, but caniuse doesn't always tell the whole story. Second, does a DIV whose width is set in ems get sized based on its own font-size, or that of its parent element? This is important, as the nav's own font size is set to 0.75 em - so if I want it to be 15ems of the parent font size, but it uses the smaller em size of its own font-size, I'd have to set it to 20 ems, and the border of the footer (which would need to remain) would need to be calculated separately as well. Unrelated to the structure/display issue, but something that it's been suggested I consider: Is there a way that I can put a link at the beginning of the page that jumps directly to the content that would be 'visible' to voice browsers for the visually impaired, but not to the general graphical-browser user population? -- Jeff Zeitlin, Editor Freelance Traveller The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Fanzine and Resource edi...@freelancetraveller.com http://www.freelancetraveller.com http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/ ®Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2014. Use of the trademark in this notice and in the referenced materials is not intended to infringe or devalue the trademark. Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following enterprises for hosting services: CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net) The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Equal-length columns - display: table-cell OK?
On 9 April 2014 16:00, Freelance Traveller edi...@freelancetraveller.comwrote:
First, is display: table-cell a viable solution for the layout issue?
caniuse suggests that if I don't feel a need to support IE7 or earlier,
I should be OK, but caniuse doesn't always tell the whole story.
The special 'taken out of flow' you're describing is a result of what
Stubbornella calls a 'new formatting context'. display: table-cell is a
gods-end for this purpose. Old IE actually had this all catered for with
zoom: 1; – more here:
http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/12/09/the-hacktastic-zoom-fix/
I've built dozens of sites using Stubbornella's OOCSS grids module which
specifically uses display: table-cell with a zoom: 1; fallback to make the
last element of a 'row' occupy the full remaining width. The OOCSS project
is a bit of a mess these days (it never was as popular as it deserved,
probably down to very poor visibility and maintenance) – it requires you to
deploy virtual machines just to build the CSS (!) – but I currently use the
following SCSS extension to achieve the desired effect:
@mixin fill-remaining-width {
display : table-cell;
float : none;
width : auto;
*zoom : 1;
:after {
clear: both;
color: transparent;
display: block;
visibility: hidden;
overflow:hidden;
height: 0 !important;
line-height: 0;
font-size: xx-large;
content: x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x;
}
}
Regards,
Barney Carroll
barney.carr...@gmail.com
+44 7429 177278
barneycarroll.com
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Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
How did you calculate 100% = 1em ?
Mostly everyone used, including myself pixels for box sizing, I hope you
were referring to creating a DIV as in box sizing ? What do you mean by
percentages are based on browser size ?
(although, it would be kind of fun if 100% resulted in letters
hundreds of pixels high...)
---Tim
I think percentages are based on their parents size and not the browser.
Correct me if I am wrong.
You are correct (except for the exceptions mentioned later by other people),
and of course for fonts.
The original question was about fonts. None of the box-model percent sizing
tangents matter. My comment was based on this from the OP:
percentages from what I know are relative to the browser size
And that's only remotely true in the context of boxes.
For example, if I have a rule that says
body {
font-size: 50%;
width: 50%;
}
My font size is 8px (assuming browser defaults). But my body width is NOT
8px. It is in fact half of my browser width. And so my point, which is
still valid, is that font percent and other percent are not the same thing.
---Tim
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Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Tim Climis tim.cli...@gmail.com wrote:
How did you calculate 100% = 1em ?
Mostly everyone used, including myself pixels for box sizing, I hope you
were referring to creating a DIV as in box sizing ? What do you mean by
percentages are based on browser size ?
(although, it would be kind of fun if 100% resulted in letters
hundreds of pixels high...)
---Tim
I think percentages are based on their parents size and not the browser.
Correct me if I am wrong.
You are correct (except for the exceptions mentioned later by other people),
and of course for fonts.
The original question was about fonts. None of the box-model percent sizing
tangents matter. My comment was based on this from the OP:
percentages from what I know are relative to the browser size
And that's only remotely true in the context of boxes.
For example, if I have a rule that says
body {
font-size: 50%;
width: 50%;
}
I'll add that ems and % for font sizes will compound.
ul
li class=aHi
ulli class=bThere/li/ul
/li
/ul
A rule of li{font-size: 50%;} for the above will cause Hi to be 1/2
the size of it's parent (or browser default) and There will be 1/2
the size of Hi.
--
Tom Livingston | Senior Front-End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
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Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
How did you calculate 100% = 1em ? That's the definition in the spec. On the 'font-size' property, [ems] refer to the computed font size of the parent element. So 1em equals the font-size of the parent element. And [percentages] refer to inherited font-size. The inherited font size of an element is the font-size of the parent element. So 100% equals the font-size of the parent element. Therefore, 1em = 100% = the font-size of the parent element. ---Tim __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Equal-length columns - display: table-cell OK?
On 4/9/14, 8:12 AM, Barney Carroll wrote:
On 9 April 2014 16:00, Freelance Traveller edi...@freelancetraveller.comwrote:
First, is display: table-cell a viable solution for the layout issue?
caniuse suggests that if I don't feel a need to support IE7 or earlier,
I should be OK, but caniuse doesn't always tell the whole story.
[...]
I've built dozens of sites using Stubbornella's OOCSS grids module which
specifically uses display: table-cell with a zoom: 1; fallback to make the
last element of a 'row' occupy the full remaining width. The OOCSS project
is a bit of a mess these days (it never was as popular as it deserved,
probably down to very poor visibility and maintenance) – it requires you to
deploy virtual machines just to build the CSS (!) – but I currently use the
following SCSS extension to achieve the desired effect:
@mixin fill-remaining-width {
display : table-cell;
float : none;
width : auto;
*zoom : 1;
:after {
clear: both;
color: transparent;
display: block;
visibility: hidden;
overflow:hidden;
height: 0 !important;
line-height: 0;
font-size: xx-large;
content: x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x;
}
}
I like!
That use of the :after content is a clever way of preventing the shrink-
to-fit nature of table cells creating a smaller width box than intended. The
same goes for some other properties that add a new block-formatting context,
such as inline-block.
Thanks. Wish I had thought of that. :)
--
Cordially,
David
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Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
If you use rem's it stays consistent from the body tag... correct? Shari __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:05 PM, Shari webweave...@gmail.com wrote: If you use rem's it stays consistent from the body tag... correct? Correct. It is relative to the root. Shari __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Den 09.04.2014 17:00, skrev GJim: I have found an issue with Opera (v12.16 is installed) when using 'small' vs %. Note that Opera v/12.16 uses the old Presto engine, for which all development is frosen/ended. A good browser, but no good designing for/in it anymore. Download Opera 20+ that uses the Blink engine, same as Google Chrome 32+ and with very few differences from this in how it renders anything. regards Georg __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
GJim wrote: according to site stats, I have visitors still using IE3! I /think/ I would check whether my site statistics had been updated this millenium, if I were you ... Philip Taylor __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Howdy Georg,
~~~
Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 1:09:22 PM (USA 'Somewhere on-the-road time-zone'),
you wrote the message that appears below.
My reply appears here and/or interspersed within your message.
~~~
Note that Opera v/12.16 uses the old Presto engine, for which all
development is frosen/ended. A good browser, but no good designing
for/in it anymore.
Download Opera 20+ that uses the Blink engine, same as Google Chrome 32+
and with very few differences from this in how it renders anything.
regards
Georg
Thanks for that info. Have downloaded Opera 20 and will use that to test with,
going forward. I may very well have site visitors using older versions of Opera
- according to site stats, I have visitors still using IE3!
G'Jim c):{-
--
Custom book-boxes: http://www.wyomerc.com/bookboxes/bookboxes.html
Book repairs: http://www.wyomerc.com/bookrepair/bookrepairs.html
My photography: http://www.gjim.com
Savvy ponderable:
When people ask me What's your sign?
I jist tell 'em it's a flashin' one
... that sez 'The Bar is Open'.
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Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Not not correct - The value of a REM is taken from the font-size of the root element...thus the HTML element, not the BODY element. On April 9, 2014 at 12:05 PM Shari webweave...@gmail.com wrote: If you use rem's it stays consistent from the body tag... correct? Shari __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Opps, forgot to add this: Yes, if you use REM the value will stay consistent with the value of font-size set on root element. If you use a percentage for the root element's font-size your other font-sizes will vary depending on the browser's default font size setting...Some have no problem with that, others do. On April 9, 2014 at 12:05 PM Shari webweave...@gmail.com wrote: If you use rem's it stays consistent from the body tag... correct? Shari __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Howdy Philip,
~~~
Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 1:37:54 PM (USA 'Somewhere on-the-road time-zone'),
you wrote the message that appears below.
My reply appears here and/or interspersed within your message.
~~~
I /think/ I would check whether my site statistics had been
updated this millenium, if I were you ...
Philip Taylor
They are updated daily, with monthly summaries.
G'Jim c):{-
--
Custom book-boxes: http://www.wyomerc.com/bookboxes/bookboxes.html
Book repairs: http://www.wyomerc.com/bookrepair/bookrepairs.html
My photography: http://www.gjim.com
Savvy ponderable:
Experience is another word fer mistakes.
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Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
I thought Opera went to webkit, or is Blink just another term for webkit ? Georg wrote: Den 09.04.2014 17:00, skrev GJim: I have found an issue with Opera (v12.16 is installed) when using 'small' vs %. Note that Opera v/12.16 uses the old Presto engine, for which all development is frosen/ended. A good browser, but no good designing for/in it anymore. Download Opera 20+ that uses the Blink engine, same as Google Chrome 32+ and with very few differences from this in how it renders anything. regards Georg __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
On 2014-04-09 20:33 (GMT-0400) Crest Christopher composed: I thought Opera went to webkit, or is Blink just another term for webkit ? WebKit is a fork of KHTML. Blink is a fork of WebKit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29 -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Font-Sizes - Golden Rule ?
Den 10.04.2014 02:33, skrev Crest Christopher: I thought Opera went to webkit, or is Blink just another term for webkit ? WebKit is a branch of the KDE open source project, and so is Blink. Google and Opera decided not all that long ago to split from WebKit, and called their engine-version Blink. Although right now we can hardly distinguish Blink from WebKit, over time differences will start to show up. For instance a differnt way to test out new solutions, where WebKit based browsers probably will continue to use vendor-specific extensions that we web coders can choose to use. Blink based browsers OTOH have started to incorporate tests of new solutions in a way that lets the individual end-user decide if s/he want to try them out or not -- fewer and fewer vendor-specific extensions for us coders to use and worry about in Blink. In addition to differences between WebKit and Blink showing up, I have also observed minor differences between Blink-implementations in Google Chrome and Opera. Whether or not that over time will lead to another engine-split, is too early to tell. regards Georg __ css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
