[css-d] Time to deprecate IE5, don't you think?
I know most people will find this to be a horrid idea, but doesn't anyone else think it's time to deprecate to IE5 (all platforms). I have been working in web development professionally since 1999 and at that time I had to practically make two separate versions of a site, one for IE and one for NS4. Cross-browser compatibility was a necessary nightmare every web developer had to deal with; Opera didn't even have a complete DOM. Now it's July of 2005 - 5-6 years since the release of IE5 - and yet still spend time working on IE5 compatibility, specifically IE5/Mac. Consumers are an ignorant lot, work in customer support for a few months and this will become quickly evident. They don't know how to upgrade, many can't install/uninstall software without a very detailed guide and explanation and even then it must be repeated each time an action is necessary. I personally believe Web Developers are *responsible* to educate the Internet user and to push web technologies forward. This cannot be done by constantly remaining backward-compatible. The consumer won't know there is something better if they are not told. People want the Internet, people need the Internet, if web developers stopped supporting browsers that are holding technological progress back people *would* do as they are told - they would upgrade. My stance on browsers is this: - Opera users have bought their browser and the majority WILL upgrade to newer versions. Compatibility can be kept to the current version or a version on 6-12 months old. - Linux users will use Firefox, those who don't may use Lynx... are you going to support Lynx specifically? - Windows users - aka The Masses - will be using some version of IE. If they are not running IE6 then they should be. If they can't because they are running Windows 95 then they should upgrade or switch to Linux if they can. If you are going to support those running Windows 95 then you should use 640x480 with 8-bit color depth and since you are doing that go ahead and only use HTML3.2 with no CSS. - Mac should be running X with Safari. If they are not then they are likely using Mac OS 8/9 which were released in 1999/2000. If your support is going back that far then support Netscape 4 also, and if you are going there then be sure you work in 640x480 with 8-bit color depth - and don't use CSS. The point I'm trying to make here is that for progress to really be made on the web we need to transition the ignorant and stubborn into modern times. If developers do not educate consumers and our clients then the web will not move forward - at least not with much speed at all. Application developers do not restrain themselves nearly as much as we as web developers due. They are quick to increase requirements and consumers are fairly used to getting phased out. Many new releases of applications require a current operating system - Windows 2K/XP or OSX. When will we do the same? Regards, Dwight Brown aka "Haoshiro" __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Time to deprecate IE5, don't you think?
I really don't see how it is off topic as it is relative to CSS and CSS-hacks in general. From: http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html#offensensitivity "We encourage discussion and debate, and don't mind if it gets a bit heated. However, this does not mean you can flame other list members. If you think someone's flaming you or being needlessly offensive, take it up with them in private e-mail. If they get abusive, discuss it with the list administrators (the e-mail address is in the headers of every list message). Don't take it onto the list. Regardless of how long you've been online, I highly recommend a reading of the following: Avoiding Personal Conflict on Mailing Lists." However, if the moderators label it as such then that is that. If anyone is interested in continuing the Discussion, as I knew at least a few are, I have posted it here: http://blog.code-artist.com/?p=5 Dwight Carole wrote: As our Moderator said, this is off-topic for the CSS-D list. However, you are right. My point of view, code for the current browsers, ignore NN4, IE anything. When people discover their browsers don't work, they'll upgrade. Best, Carole On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:51:16 -0700, Haoshiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I know most people will find this to be a horrid idea, but doesn't anyone else think it's time to deprecate to IE5 (all platforms). I have been working in web development professionally since 1999 and at that time I had to practically make two separate versions of a site, one for IE and one for NS4. Cross-browser compatibility was a necessary nightmare every web developer had to deal with; Opera didn't even have a complete DOM. Now it's July of 2005 - 5-6 years since the release of IE5 - and yet still spend time working on IE5 compatibility, specifically IE5/Mac. Consumers are an ignorant lot, work in customer support for a few months and this will become quickly evident. They don't know how to upgrade, many can't install/uninstall software without a very detailed guide and explanation and even then it must be repeated each time an action is necessary. I personally believe Web Developers are *responsible* to educate the Internet user and to push web technologies forward. This cannot be done by constantly remaining backward-compatible. The consumer won't know there is something better if they are not told. People want the Internet, people need the Internet, if web developers stopped supporting browsers that are holding technological progress back people *would* do as they are told - they would upgrade. My stance on browsers is this: - Opera users have bought their browser and the majority WILL upgrade to newer versions. Compatibility can be kept to the current version or a version on 6-12 months old. - Linux users will use Firefox, those who don't may use Lynx... are you going to support Lynx specifically? - Windows users - aka The Masses - will be using some version of IE. If they are not running IE6 then they should be. If they can't because they are running Windows 95 then they should upgrade or switch to Linux if they can. If you are going to support those running Windows 95 then you should use 640x480 with 8-bit color depth and since you are doing that go ahead and only use HTML3.2 with no CSS. - Mac should be running X with Safari. If they are not then they are likely using Mac OS 8/9 which were released in 1999/2000. If your support is going back that far then support Netscape 4 also, and if you are going there then be sure you work in 640x480 with 8-bit color depth - and don't use CSS. The point I'm trying to make here is that for progress to really be made on the web we need to transition the ignorant and stubborn into modern times. If developers do not educate consumers and our clients then the web will not move forward - at least not with much speed at all. Application developers do not restrain themselves nearly as much as we as web developers due. They are quick to increase requirements and consumers are fairly used to getting phased out. Many new releases of applications require a current operating system - Windows 2K/XP or OSX. When will we do the same? Regards, Dwight Brown aka "Haoshiro" __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Link plus background image, plus undereline
Jono, Perhaps you could have the icon as the background of the div and attach it to the bottom-left. then assign a left margin to the tag to make sure it doesn't overlap. A thought, at least. Jono Young wrote: Just thinking out loud here, and looking for feedback. Here's what I am curious about: I want to make a link, and give the link a left aligned icon image, and also give the link a bottom border so that the link's underline is a different color than the actual link text. What I do not want is for the underline to also appear below the icon image that will appear to the left of the link. Here's how I'd mark it up: Callout's Title Goes Here This is a short paragraph that gives a lead in to where the link below goes. Go there now I could give the a class and assign a left positioned BG image, no problem, but if I add left padding to the to allow for the image to show to the left of the link, the border will also appear below the image. So, without adding to the markup, am I out of luck here? I am pretty sure it's a no go, but you all might have a better suggestion... that will work in as many browsers as possible of course - IE/Mac Win 5+, FF, Netscape, Safari, etc. If it's not possible, a simple "no" will work for an answer, and I'll go on with the approach, but if it is possible, and it satisfies the requirements, I'd really like to see a suggestion. Thanks, __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Invisible text inside a a-Tag
Joa,
Your CSS is hiding the contents of your help/fakes divs and from what
you gave I don't see why.
It'd doesn't appear you need those divs nor the spans, so you could just do:
Help
Fakes
[...]
Assign your help/fakes styles directly to the link elements.
joa ebert wrote:
Hello,
this is my first question here so forgive me please if I'm doing some
things wrong.
I've just a simple question about "what is the correct version of my
ugly workaround".
The problem is:
I've got a footer, all the text is displayed by a background-image.
Now I want to have some clickable areas (from the left to the right).
Tidy says, it is not correct that a-div element lies inside an a-element.
This is what I'm currently doing. Works very well using gecko and
iexplore.
Help
Fakes
[...]
My Stylesheet:
#footer
{
background: url(images/footer.gif) no-repeat;
height: 27px;
width: 585px;
position: absolute;
bottom: 0;
left: 396px;
}
#footer div
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
height: 27px;
float: left;
}
#footer a div span
{
display: none;
}
/**
* Fixing a strange IE bug
*/
#footer a div
{
cursor: pointer;
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
}
/**
* Define footer buttons
*/
#footer div.help { width: 50px; }
#footer div.fakes { width: 60px; }
[...]
Anybody knows the correct version of this?
It behaves correct but gives me a warning because the div is inside
the a.
Cheers,
Joa
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Re: [css-d] hacks in IE7 ?
Nick, Only a couple years? I'm a bit more pessimistic. Many web developers are still trying to ensure their site works in IE5/Mac and some even IE5.5/Win. Only Windows XP will be getting IE7. So if we are to support Mac OS 8/9 with IE5 because no new version is coming out for it (nor Safari/Firefox) then when will we ever be able to let go of IE6? Those systems are over five years old. If we want to support any platform below XP we pretty much can't... so what do we really gain from even having an IE7? The comfort in knowing that in 6-10 years it might be acceptable to finally drop the obsolete, I guess... Regards, Hao Nick Fitzsimons wrote: Hi, i've read somewhere that many IE CSS deficiencies won't be addressed in the new IE release at all. Is this really so bad? I don't want to see all those pages looking bad in the new IE just because Microsoft suddenly decided to apply to standards and all those old IE-hacks behave awkward now. Despite all the naysayers (most of whom would hate MS to fix _anything_, as they'd have to find something else to whinge about), the IE team are planning to fix quite a lot of stuff. See their list at http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx for details. Now that MS have engaged with the Web Standards Project, we can expect to see a gradual improvement; but just fixing the bugs the IE team list in the above-mentioned piece will sort out about 99% of the IE problems I encounter on a daily basis. However, we'll probably have to wait at least a couple of years before the public upgrade in sufficient numbers for us to say "IE 6 is dead! Long live IE 7!" :-( So don't throw away your hacks just yet. Regards, Nick. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] hacks in IE7 ?
Heh, exactly. That's why hacks, in general, are a bad idea. More headaches for developers when future releases happen... whether that be the browser devs or the web devs! Personally I just try to rework the way I am implementing something until it is cross-browser without hacks. But perhaps the wide spread use of hacks is because everyone wants to design new-spec sites with pure CSS for browsers that were designed to accomodate classic table-based layouts. Yet we all flinch at the idea of using the browser the way the browser makers originally intended/expected! This isn't to say I am *for* using table based layouts, because I'm not. I'm just suggesting that perhaps we "want our cake and eat it too" in the sense that we want the new standards but don't want to accept that many browsers just don't handle them well. Rather then do what they do handle well, we try to hack stuff up. A thought, at least. Regards, Hao Zoe M. Gillenwater wrote: Well, it's fixed right now, but may not stay that way, according to that comment. Either way, we all need to reevaluate our IE hacks and take the time to clean them up now. I can hear all the non-hack people laughing at us now... ;-) Zoe __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] hacks in IE7 ?
That depends on how the floats are being used. My suggestion would be to find a fundamentally different approach to producing the attempted design that would not cause the text jog to be an issue. That would be a design-specific issue and the approach could vary. It's possible I would use a table in this situation, if I can do so in a matter that fits my needs. This could include being cross-browser compatible, standards compliant (as far as syntax), printer-friendly, and accessible, etc. - again, depending on the design. Hao Ingo Chao wrote: Then I'd like to see a 3px text jog fixed without hacking. Can you please provide an URL to your new method? Or does your interpration says we can't use floats? Would you use a table in this situation? Ingo __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] Firefox issue - Link outline on click
Does anyone know if there is a way (using CSS) to stop Firefox from outlining a clicked link with a dotted border? I have some tabs on my site and this behavior degrades the appearance of the tabs once they are clicked. (Clicking somewhere else on the page removes "focus" from the link and the box is removed.) Thanks, Hao __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Firefox issue - Link outline on click
Actually when I attempted that it caused the firefox window to lose focus (switching to another open firefox window.) I do realize it is something of an "accessibility" feature but, personally, hardly see it's great usefullness. Creating anchors, which I had previously overlooked adding while testing, has cured the problem. Thanks for all responses! IMO, there is no way by using CSS, and a JavaScript like LINK you won't use, I guess. Regards, Uwe Kaiser __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Hacks, to use them, or not
Deb, Personally I would recommend *against* using hacks at all. Conditional Comments and behaviors should be able to get you past the really problematic IE issues. In my experience many of the "compatibility issues" across browsers is caused by the lack of complete CSS standards support in current browsers. In these cases many layout issues can actually be solved by using a table or two in your layout. Trying to force CSS standards on browsers that were not originally designed with them as a high priority using hacks is a worse practice, in my opinion, then using a few layout tables. This is generally regarded as a *bad* thing because "tables are for tabular data only" but the fact of the matter remains that they do *work* and are generally rendered close to the same way across browsers common browsers. Conditional Comments: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp Behaviors: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dhtmltechcol/dndhtml/IE5behave.asp Regards, Haoshiro 4css wrote: Ok, this is my next question in my learning quest. To use hacks or not to use hacks. There are so many of them out there that it is a bit confusing. And with so many to learn it gets a bit frustrating. How do you remember all of them? do you keep a cheat sheet near you? My mind is sort of boggled right now with so much reading etc.. So any links that could be provided, that really explain things good, would be so appreciated. 4~CSS!!! aka Deb http://directory.css-styling.com http://fmsforum.debsplace.org A site in progress: http://debsplace.org __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
