Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Rick Lecoat]

Clearly I accidentally sent that message to the list as well as to David
(I forgot that I have an automatic filter to add the list's address to
any email with [css-d] in the subject).
Apologies if the discussion was drifting too off-topic for the list.

-- 
Rick Lecoat

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Received from Rick Lecoat 
on 18/7/07 at 19:07(London time):

>Thought I'd send this off-list as it's starting to get off-topic

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Rick Lecoat]

Hi David;

Thought I'd send this off-list as it's starting to get off-topic and I
didn't want the css-discuss moderators to send in the black helicopters,
but I should probably point out that, although I'm using virtual PC,
multiple IEs installed on a single Windows installation is *exactly*
what I *do* have -- albeit that these IE versions are 'standalone'
versions. The installation process seems designed to allow them to
operate without conflicting with the 'main' IE installation -- IE7 for
me -- but I'm not sure how that is achieved, being neither a programmer
nor a regular windows user. So maybe some of the security/stability
benefit that you were perceiving is not actually there after all.

In any case, I have a system that allows me to run IE 4, 5, 5.5, 6 and 7
simultaneously and side by side, with only occasional crashes, so it's
not bad.

Best regards;
-- 
Rick Lecoat

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Received from david 
on 18/7/07 at 18:43(London time):

>Using things like PC emulators like VirtualPC are good, they avoid the 
>problems inherent in having multiple IEs installed on Windows.

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[david]

Rick Lecoat wrote:
> Re. multiple versions of IE on a single windows installation, check out
> . Here you can get an all-in-one
> installer that will install a variety of IE standalone versions (right
> through from 3-6, with both 5 and 5.5). They are not 100% rock solid but
> they are certainly good enough for testing pages IMO. (One bug, for
> example, is that trying to drag a URL from the address bar to the
> desktop to create a shortcut will crash the app). The main advantage is
> that you can have 5 or more different versions of IE running
> simultaneously, from the stone age versions up to and including IE7 (IE7
> isn't part of the all-in-one installer, though).
> 
> And, as a mac user, I've got it installed under Virtual PC -- so you
> other mac jockeys can take advantage of it also.

Using things like PC emulators like VirtualPC are good, they avoid the 
problems inherent in having multiple IEs installed on Windows.

And us Linux users can use IEs4Linux to run IE5, 5.5 and 6 under WINE. 
Or run Windows under QEMU.

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David
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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Rick Lecoat]

Re. multiple versions of IE on a single windows installation, check out
. Here you can get an all-in-one
installer that will install a variety of IE standalone versions (right
through from 3-6, with both 5 and 5.5). They are not 100% rock solid but
they are certainly good enough for testing pages IMO. (One bug, for
example, is that trying to drag a URL from the address bar to the
desktop to create a shortcut will crash the app). The main advantage is
that you can have 5 or more different versions of IE running
simultaneously, from the stone age versions up to and including IE7 (IE7
isn't part of the all-in-one installer, though).

And, as a mac user, I've got it installed under Virtual PC -- so you
other mac jockeys can take advantage of it also.

HTH

-- 
Rick Lecoat

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**ORIGINAL MESSAGE**
Received from Michael Geary 
on 13/7/07 at 22:09(London time):

>> From: rollandburn
>> 
>> Thanks everybody,  I really appreciate all the help and feedback!
>> 
>> Gonna go install Parallels and do some searching on if I can 
>> have multiple IE's on the same OS.
>
>One of the beautiful things about virtual machines is that you can have more
>than one, and set up each one with different browsers or other software. For
>example, you can easily have one VM with IE6+FF1.5 and a second VM with
>IE7+FF2.
>
>On a Windows or Linux host system, you can even do this without wasting any
>disk space, by using VMware Workstation to create a base VM and then create
>"linked clones" of that base. Each linked clone uses up only enough disk
>space for the files that are changed from the base version.
>
>I don't think either Parallels or VMware Fusion on the Mac supports this,
>but you can achieve the same effect at the cost of disk space by simply
>creating your VM and installing Windows, and then make a second copy of the
>entire folder (on your Mac) that contains the VM. Now you have two identical
>VMs and can install different software in each. You can even run the two VMs
>at the same time, if you go into the System Properties panel inside one of
>the VMs and change its computer name (hostname) to avoid conflicts.
>
>And *thank you* for helping reduce the number of "site check" messages on
>this list. :-)
>
>-Mike
>
>
>
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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Michael Geary]

> From: rollandburn
> 
> Thanks everybody,  I really appreciate all the help and feedback!
> 
> Gonna go install Parallels and do some searching on if I can 
> have multiple IE's on the same OS.

One of the beautiful things about virtual machines is that you can have more
than one, and set up each one with different browsers or other software. For
example, you can easily have one VM with IE6+FF1.5 and a second VM with
IE7+FF2.

On a Windows or Linux host system, you can even do this without wasting any
disk space, by using VMware Workstation to create a base VM and then create
"linked clones" of that base. Each linked clone uses up only enough disk
space for the files that are changed from the base version.

I don't think either Parallels or VMware Fusion on the Mac supports this,
but you can achieve the same effect at the cost of disk space by simply
creating your VM and installing Windows, and then make a second copy of the
entire folder (on your Mac) that contains the VM. Now you have two identical
VMs and can install different software in each. You can even run the two VMs
at the same time, if you go into the System Properties panel inside one of
the VMs and change its computer name (hostname) to avoid conflicts.

And *thank you* for helping reduce the number of "site check" messages on
this list. :-)

-Mike



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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Jason Crosse]

rollandburn wrote:
> Thanks everybody,  I really appreciate all the help and feedback!
> 
> Gonna go install Parallels and do some searching on if I can have
> multiple IE's on the same OS.
> 
> =]

You should be able to use multiple versions on windows - although 
conditional comments won't work.

Have a google around for details. For a start look here: 
http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone

Good luck!  (^_^)
-- 
http://antanova.blogspot.com
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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[rollandburn]

Thanks everybody,  I really appreciate all the help and feedback!

Gonna go install Parallels and do some searching on if I can have
multiple IE's on the same OS.

=]
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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[David Hucklesby]

I had written re: http://www.discandmore.com/ -

>> Sadly, that menu, and other parts of your layout, do not survive any kind of 
>> text
>> resizing or, in the case of IE7, any zoom level beyond 100%.
>>
>> Sorry.
>>
>> IE7 Win xp Screen shot:
> 
>

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:17:46 -0400, rollandburn responded:

> Well thanks for taking the time to take and post screenshots Dave,  I can see 
> that
> 'poor css technique' is where you are headed with that one.  I know that the 
> menu items
> start to wrap with the first two text size increases. A solution to that 
> could be to
> either remove a menu item or narrow the graphics. 

Well, no. Your CSS technique is pretty good, I would say. Getting
a design to work cross-browser, allowing for text resizing and similar
factors is tough. To do it without access to a good cross-section
of browsers impossible, I would imagine.

For the menu to work, I suggest taller images and a "natural" height
so that they expand vertically with larger text. You are pretty much
stuck with fixed widths to avoid wrapping, but you can get a couple
of increases without breaking, I would hope.

With regard to IE7's "zoom" - well, I wish I had an answer. I have
similar problems, and have tried all manner of fixes, including some
pretty convoluted Micro$oft "expressions".

If anyone else on the list has ideas, please share them. I am all ears.

Cordially,
David
--

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Elli Vizcaino]

--- rollandburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well thanks for taking the time to take and post
> screenshots Dave,  I can
> see that 'poor css technique' is where you are
> headed with that one.  I know
> that the menu items start to wrap with the first two
> text size increases. A
> solution to that could be to either remove a menu
> item or narrow the
> graphics.  With regards to the zoom problem shown in
> your screenshot, it
> looks like the background image did not 'expand'
> with the rest of the
> layout/images, I wonder if that is because it is a
> background image on the
> 'body' and not a wrapper type div.  Having said
> that, the layout is 1000px
> wide and I don't know anyone who comfortably browses
> webpages wider than
> that (not saying they don't exist).  Yes, though, it
> is a problem.
> 
> I work on a Mac and find it fairly frustrating to
> design for  pc's, IE6/7,
> coming here to ask for 'site check please' everyweek
> seems abusive. I wish
> there were an easier way.
> 
> Now that the shortcomings of my layout are now out
> in the open, can you make
> a few suggestions on how to remedy?
> 
> Thanks

Hi,

Well I use a 20" flat panel monitor with a 1680 x 1050
resolution and the background image does expand all
the way to the right of the screen. You might want to
try clicking on the screen shot image provide so
you'll see it does expand.  

With regards to creating a more flexible/liquid layout
I don't have a solution but I can recommend a couple
of  articles (which I still need to read for myself)
on creating CSS based "variable fixed width",
liquid/elastic layouts: 

http://www.clagnut.com/blog/1663/
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/
http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/09/03/liquid-bleach.html

Hope those can help. 

Elli V



   

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Michael Geary]

> From: rollandburn
> 
> I work on a Mac and find it fairly frustrating to design for  
> pc's, IE6/7, coming here to ask for 'site check please' 
> everyweek seems abusive. I wish there were an easier way.

There is.

Get VMware Fusion or Parallels and a copy of Windows XP, and run Windows in
a virtual machine on your Mac. You can get XP Home for $90 at places like
ZipZoomFly, or XP Professional for $140 including a Vista upgrade if you
want to test on Vista too:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ThirdCategoryList.jsp?SecondCategoryCode=1202

Or, get a BrowserCam account for $25/year:

http://www.fundable.org/browsercam

-Mike

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[rollandburn]

Well thanks for taking the time to take and post screenshots Dave,  I can
see that 'poor css technique' is where you are headed with that one.  I know
that the menu items start to wrap with the first two text size increases. A
solution to that could be to either remove a menu item or narrow the
graphics.  With regards to the zoom problem shown in your screenshot, it
looks like the background image did not 'expand' with the rest of the
layout/images, I wonder if that is because it is a background image on the
'body' and not a wrapper type div.  Having said that, the layout is 1000px
wide and I don't know anyone who comfortably browses webpages wider than
that (not saying they don't exist).  Yes, though, it is a problem.

I work on a Mac and find it fairly frustrating to design for  pc's, IE6/7,
coming here to ask for 'site check please' everyweek seems abusive. I wish
there were an easier way.

Now that the shortcomings of my layout are now out in the open, can you make
a few suggestions on how to remedy?

Thanks


> Sadly, that menu, and other parts of your layout, do not survive any
> kind of text resizing or, in the case of IE7, any zoom level beyond 100%.
>
> Sorry.
>
> IE7 Win xp Screen shot:

>
> Cordially,
> David


On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:01:30 -0400, rollandburn wrote:
> Well Jumpin' Jehosaphats!  Blasted hasLayout got me again...hehe.  I even
went to
> satzandsatz.de to read On Having Layout, for the third time while waiting
for the gurus
> to finish lunch.  Thanks Georg.
>
> btw...That menu is a direct rip from Stu Nicholls at cssplay.co.uk so I
pass all the
> credit to him.
>
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[css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[fulgen]

It works fine in IE 7...

By the way, is there a way to install IE6 on Vista, apart from (and without
uninstalling) IE7?



On 7/11/07, rollandburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I wonder if a kind soul could take a look at ...
>
> http://www.discandmore.com
>
> ...to help me figure out why internet explorer doesn't allow vertical
> scrolling past a certain point effectively 'cutting off' content at the
> bottom of the page, such as the footer.  Firefox shows the page as it
> should
> be for reference.
>
> Thanks
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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[David Hucklesby]

Re: 

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:01:30 -0400, rollandburn wrote:
> Well Jumpin' Jehosaphats!  Blasted hasLayout got me again...hehe.  I even 
> went to
> satzandsatz.de to read On Having Layout, for the third time while waiting for 
> the gurus
> to finish lunch.  Thanks Georg.
>
> btw...That menu is a direct rip from Stu Nicholls at cssplay.co.uk so I pass 
> all the
> credit to him.
>

Sadly, that menu, and other parts of your layout, do not survive any
kind of text resizing or, in the case of IE7, any zoom level beyond 100%.

Sorry.

IE7 Win xp Screen shot: 


Cordially,
David
--

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[rollandburn]

Well Jumpin' Jehosaphats!  Blasted hasLayout got me again...hehe.  I even
went to satzandsatz.de to read On Having Layout, for the third time while
waiting for the gurus to finish lunch.  Thanks Georg.

btw...That menu is a direct rip from Stu Nicholls at cssplay.co.uk so I pass
all the credit to him.

I have the #footer in the #content div to keep it at the bottom of the
page.  I didn't want to mess around with floats and absolutely positioned
elements and that seemed the easiest way.


Anyway, Monaris is waiting to see my Privacy Policy in my footer!

Thanks!
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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Elli Vizcaino]

--- Elli Vizcaino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 Try placing your footer
> beneath
> the content div to see if that helps and perhaps
> float
> right instead of text-align right. 
> 
> Elli V
> 

I apologize, I don't think that was a good suggestion.
if anything, float left and text-align right. 

Elli V



   

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[ron zisman]

On Jul 11, 2007, at 2:02 PM, rollandburn wrote:

> ...to help me figure out why internet explorer doesn't allow vertical
> scrolling past a certain point effectively 'cutting off' content at  
> the
> bottom of the page, such as the footer.

It's the IE6 bug "need Layout in order to perform" bug.

Add...

#footer {height: 1%;}

... or some other hasLayout trigger that IE6 will recognize, and it  
should work just fine.

regards
Georg

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Elli Vizcaino]

--- rollandburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> 
> I wonder if a kind soul could take a look at ...
> 
> http://www.discandmore.com
> 
> ...to help me figure out why internet explorer
> doesn't allow vertical
> scrolling past a certain point effectively 'cutting
> off' content at the
> bottom of the page, such as the footer.  Firefox
> shows the page as it should
> be for reference.
> 
> Thanks
> 
Hi,

The problem is in IE6. I love the top Nav btw. There's
another problem here in IE6 - when you hover over the
tabs there is a red underline that shows up underneath
the links, which differs from the hover state in all
the other browsers. 

I'm going to take a stab at a solution without really
delving into your code: 

Could it be because you have the footer div wrapped
inside of the content div? And the content div is
absolutely positioned? Try placing your footer beneath
the content div to see if that helps and perhaps float
right instead of text-align right. 

Elli V




   

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Re: [css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[Ray Leventhal]

rollandburn wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I wonder if a kind soul could take a look at ...
>
> http://www.discandmore.com
>
> ...to help me figure out why internet explorer doesn't allow vertical
> scrolling past a certain point effectively 'cutting off' content at the
> bottom of the page, such as the footer.  Firefox shows the page as it should
> be for reference.
>
> Thanks
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>   
Hi,

The site does, as you say, look great in FF/Win.  Frankly, it looks good
and scrolls all the way to the end of the footer in IE7/Win as well.

I'm not able to duplicate the scrolling issue you describe.

Hope this helps,

~Ray
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[css-d] Explorer bug or poor css technique?

[rollandburn]

Hi everybody,

I wonder if a kind soul could take a look at ...

http://www.discandmore.com

...to help me figure out why internet explorer doesn't allow vertical
scrolling past a certain point effectively 'cutting off' content at the
bottom of the page, such as the footer.  Firefox shows the page as it should
be for reference.

Thanks
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