Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[~davidLaakso]

Portman wrote:
> Zoe,
>
> I reduced the size of my image,
Cool. Ditch all the background images. It will look more contemporary. 
It will load even faster. And you will kill two birds in one fell swoop.
[trimmed]
>  
>
> Thanks,
> Riva
>   
[trimmed]

Best,

~dL
PS One Fell Swoop is the second album from Sioux Falls, South Dakota 
emo/rock band The Spill Canvas. It was released on August 9, 2005 
through 111 Records :-) .

-- 
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Zoe,

I reduced the size of my image, but the web host is the client's 
responsibility, so I guess it will stay this way. (I was curious about 
what you said about there being a different kind of bug when it is NOT 
the style sheet that loads last and causes the flash - wanted to find 
out more about that.)

Thanks,
Riva


Zoe M. Gillenwater wrote:
> Portman wrote:
>   
>> Zoe, can you point me in the right direction to find out what the bug 
>> might be?
>>   
>> 
>
> Riva,
>
> I think everyone on this list has said several times that this is not a 
> CSS bug, it is a slow loading page. At least, that's what my 
> understanding of it is. All you can do is get a faster web host or 
> reduce the size of your image.
>
> Zoe
>
>   
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Portman wrote:
> Zoe, can you point me in the right direction to find out what the bug 
> might be?
>   

Riva,

I think everyone on this list has said several times that this is not a 
CSS bug, it is a slow loading page. At least, that's what my 
understanding of it is. All you can do is get a faster web host or 
reduce the size of your image.

Zoe

-- 
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Services Manager
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu


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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Zoe, can you point me in the right direction to find out what the bug 
might be?

Thanks,
Riva

Zoe M. Gillenwater wrote:
> No you can't. If parts of the styles aren't loading, then it's a bug, 
> but a different bug. It's not FOUC. FOUC means all the styles don't load 
> for a second, in IE6 and lower, and it's caused by an @import in the 
> head, and fixed with the addition of a link or script in the head. 
> That's it. There are many, many other bugs that show flashing styles or 
> partially rendered styles, in different combinations of browsers, but 
> these are all separate things that deserve their own names and have 
> their own fixes. If we start calling them all FOUC, we're just confusing 
> the matter, because the FOUC fixes won't work for them.
>
> Thanks,
> Zoe
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Michael Geary wrote:
>> From: Zoe M. Gillenwater
>>
>> Exactly. FOUC is a very specific bug. It means that *none* of 
>> the styles are loaded initially. I'm guessing they are, and 
>> it's just the background image that isn't loaded 
>> instantaneously. Again, Riva, do the styles on the fonts show 
>> up right away? Try making your text an outlandish color like 
>> bright red. Does that show right away? If so, it's not FOUC. 
>> It's a totally different bug.
>> 
>
> Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. You're right, a total FOUC is typical,
> but you could also have a partial FOUC.
>   

No you can't. If parts of the styles aren't loading, then it's a bug, 
but a different bug. It's not FOUC. FOUC means all the styles don't load 
for a second, in IE6 and lower, and it's caused by an @import in the 
head, and fixed with the addition of a link or script in the head. 
That's it. There are many, many other bugs that show flashing styles or 
partially rendered styles, in different combinations of browsers, but 
these are all separate things that deserve their own names and have 
their own fixes. If we start calling them all FOUC, we're just confusing 
the matter, because the FOUC fixes won't work for them.

Thanks,
Zoe

-- 
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Services Manager
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu


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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Michael Geary]

> From: Zoe M. Gillenwater
> 
> Exactly. FOUC is a very specific bug. It means that *none* of 
> the styles are loaded initially. I'm guessing they are, and 
> it's just the background image that isn't loaded 
> instantaneously. Again, Riva, do the styles on the fonts show 
> up right away? Try making your text an outlandish color like 
> bright red. Does that show right away? If so, it's not FOUC. 
> It's a totally different bug.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. You're right, a total FOUC is typical,
but you could also have a partial FOUC.

I have a calendar widget that momentarily lacked some custom styles as it
loaded. It was mostly right, and the rest of the page was unaffected. The
widget loaded a custom stylesheet dynamically through JavaScript DOM methods
after the page was loaded, so some but not all of its styles were ready when
it first rendered. (The reasons for this curious design are beyond the scope
of this discussion...)

My solution was to wrap the widget's HTML code in a DIV like this:

  
... Widget content here ...
  

and add this to the standard .css file - which is LINKed in HEAD in the
proper way, so the style is ready before the page renders:

.Hider { display: none; }

And this at the end of the custom CSS file:

.Hider { display: block; }

So the widget is hidden until the custom CSS is loaded.

-Mike

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Michael Geary]

> > I looked at your page in IE7 and FF2, and I do see a problem 
> > with the page loading in both browsers. The background image 
> > used in the sidebars flickers across the entire center area 
> > for a moment. I don't know if that's what you're talking 
> > about - I probably wouldn't call it a FOUC, it's more like a 
> > Flickering Unwanted Background After Reload.

> Yes, it was the background I was talking about. I did replace 
> the 7KB background image with a 2.3KB background image, so 
> maybe that helps.
> 
> What I did was to create a wide image across the whole page 
> and set it as the background in the  tag so that it 
> would appear as if the whole page had loaded without the 
> flashing, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

OK, there are probably several ways to fix the FUBAR.

One would be to remove the auto margin and background image on BODY, and use
any technique you like to make those background sidebars separate elements.
You could even use a table for all anyone cares. Then apply the repeating
background image to those sidebar elements instead of the entire body.

-Mike

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

It is only the background that doesn't load initially. What other bug 
could it be?

Riva

Zoe M. Gillenwater wrote:
> Exactly. FOUC is a very specific bug. It means that *none* of the styles 
> are loaded initially. I'm guessing they are, and it's just the 
> background image that isn't loaded instantaneously. Again, Riva, do the 
> styles on the fonts show up right away? Try making your text an 
> outlandish color like bright red. Does that show right away? If so, it's 
> not FOUC. It's a totally different bug.
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Are you on dial up? That is not good.

Riva

Richard Grevers wrote:
> Basically, pay more for a faster server.
> I spent 11 seconds waiting while nothing happened, then saw a
> split-second flash of white (my default bg is grey, otherwise I
> wouldn't have seen it). before the page rendered fully over another
> couple of seconds. Take note that I have made a deliberate choice to
> disable Opera's default FOUC-killing delay, because I prefer to get
> text ASAP.
>
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Richard Grevers]

On 1/11/07, Portman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have a FOUC problem on one of my websites and I have tried all the
> fixes I can think of but nothing is helping. Would someone mind taking a
> look and letting me know what the problem is?
> http://www.starqualitydesigns.com/contempo
>
Basically, pay more for a faster server.
I spent 11 seconds waiting while nothing happened, then saw a
split-second flash of white (my default bg is grey, otherwise I
wouldn't have seen it). before the page rendered fully over another
couple of seconds. Take note that I have made a deliberate choice to
disable Opera's default FOUC-killing delay, because I prefer to get
text ASAP.

-- 
Richard Grevers, New Plymouth, New Zealand
Hat 1: Development Engineer, Webfarm Ltd.
Hat 2: Dramatic Design www.dramatic.co.nz
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Thanks Shelly. I do have that in the page already.

Riva

Shelly wrote:
> Try adding this in your meat tags in the head of your document:
>
> 
>
> See if that helps.
>
> ~Shelly
>
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Shelly]

Try adding this in your meat tags in the head of your document:



See if that helps.

~Shelly
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

I know. :-)

Michael Geary wrote:
> And no offense intended! There was a virtual smileyface at the end of that
> sentence... :-)
>
> -Mike
>   
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Michael Geary]

> Riva! Forgive me, but after your fifth message we still don't 
> know what "it" is.

And no offense intended! There was a virtual smileyface at the end of that
sentence... :-)

-Mike

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Okay. I'll give it a try.

As I said in the previous e-mail, the background is what flashes (well, 
that is what I don't like) and the text, etc. appears a second later. 
What would the other bug be?

Riva

Zoe M. Gillenwater wrote:
> Exactly. FOUC is a very specific bug. It means that *none* of the styles 
> are loaded initially. I'm guessing they are, and it's just the 
> background image that isn't loaded instantaneously. Again, Riva, do the 
> styles on the fonts show up right away? Try making your text an 
> outlandish color like bright red. Does that show right away? If so, it's 
> not FOUC. It's a totally different bug.
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Thanks for the reply Mike.

Yes, it was the background I was talking about. I did replace the 7KB 
background image with a 2.3KB background image, so maybe that helps. 
What I did was to create a wide image across the whole page and set it 
as the background in the  tag so that it would appear as if the 
whole page had loaded without the flashing, but it doesn't seem to be 
helping.

Riva

Michael Geary wrote:
> Riva! Forgive me, but after your fifth message we still don't know what "it"
> is.
>
> I looked at your page in IE7 and FF2, and I do see a problem with the page
> loading in both browsers. The background image used in the sidebars flickers
> across the entire center area for a moment. I don't know if that's what
> you're talking about - I probably wouldn't call it a FOUC, it's more like a
> Flickering Unwanted Background After Reload.
>
> But now it sounds like that background is just a test, and there was some
> other problem you were seeing before you added it? Or is that the problem?
>
> Please help us out and tell us what we're looking for. :-)
>
> -Mike
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Michael Geary wrote:
> Riva! Forgive me, but after your fifth message we still don't know what "it"
> is.
>
> I looked at your page in IE7 and FF2, and I do see a problem with the page
> loading in both browsers. The background image used in the sidebars flickers
> across the entire center area for a moment. I don't know if that's what
> you're talking about - I probably wouldn't call it a FOUC, it's more like a
> Flickering Unwanted Background After Reload.
>   

Exactly. FOUC is a very specific bug. It means that *none* of the styles 
are loaded initially. I'm guessing they are, and it's just the 
background image that isn't loaded instantaneously. Again, Riva, do the 
styles on the fonts show up right away? Try making your text an 
outlandish color like bright red. Does that show right away? If so, it's 
not FOUC. It's a totally different bug.

> Please help us out and tell us what we're looking for. :-)
>   

Yes, exactly. :-)

Zoe

-- 
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Services Manager
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Michael Geary]

Riva! Forgive me, but after your fifth message we still don't know what "it"
is.

I looked at your page in IE7 and FF2, and I do see a problem with the page
loading in both browsers. The background image used in the sidebars flickers
across the entire center area for a moment. I don't know if that's what
you're talking about - I probably wouldn't call it a FOUC, it's more like a
Flickering Unwanted Background After Reload.

But now it sounds like that background is just a test, and there was some
other problem you were seeing before you added it? Or is that the problem?

Please help us out and tell us what we're looking for. :-)

-Mike

> From: Portman
> 
> I don't know. I tried putting a background image in the html 
> page so it wouldn't look so obvious but it is hard to tell 
> what flashes.

> > From: Zoe M. Gillenwater
> >
> > But as Rod said, is it just that the background image takes 
> > a second to load, or are the fonts and all other styles not
> > loading right away either?

...

> > > > http://www.starqualitydesigns.com/contempo

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

I don't know. I tried putting a background image in the html page so it 
wouldn't look so obvious but it is hard to tell what flashes.

Riva

Zoe M. Gillenwater wrote:
> Riva,
>
> But as Rod said, is it just that the background image takes a second to 
> load, or are the fonts and all other styles not loading right away either?
>
> Zoe
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Portman wrote:
> Thanks Rod.
>
> Zoe, I am using IE6 on Windows XP. The funny thing is, I only see it 
> online (as opposed to on my computer).
>   

Riva,

But as Rod said, is it just that the background image takes a second to 
load, or are the fonts and all other styles not loading right away either?

Zoe

-- 
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Services Manager
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Thanks Rod.

Zoe, I am using IE6 on Windows XP. The funny thing is, I only see it 
online (as opposed to on my computer).

Riva

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Optrics Engineering - Rod Miles, B.Eng.]

>Portman wrote:
>> I have a FOUC problem on one of my websites and I have tried all the
>> fixes I can think of but nothing is helping. Would someone mind taking a
>> look and letting me know what the problem is?
>> http://www.starqualitydesigns.com/contempo
>>

>I can't see a FOUC on IE7 or IE6 on Windows XP. Can you be more explicit
>about what you are seeing and in what browsers and platforms?
>
>Zoe

I don't see FOUC either. I think it's just that the 7kb background tile
image is loading slowly compared to the other content.

-Rod

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Zoe M. Gillenwater]

Portman wrote:
> I have a FOUC problem on one of my websites and I have tried all the 
> fixes I can think of but nothing is helping. Would someone mind taking a 
> look and letting me know what the problem is? 
> http://www.starqualitydesigns.com/contempo
>   

I can't see a FOUC on IE7 or IE6 on Windows XP. Can you be more explicit 
about what you are seeing and in what browsers and platforms?

Zoe

-- 
Zoe M. Gillenwater
Design Services Manager
UNC Highway Safety Research Center
http://www.hsrc.unc.edu

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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

I know! My client is not complaining but I would like this fixed.

Thanks for the reply,
Riva

Dave Goodchild wrote:
> Well, you have link and script elements inside your head section, 
> which is the classic antidote to FOUC, so not sure why that's happening.
>
>
> -- 
> http://www.web-buddha.co.uk 
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Dave Goodchild]

Well, you have link and script elements inside your head section, which is
the classic antidote to FOUC, so not sure why that's happening.


-- 
http://www.web-buddha.co.uk
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Thanks for the reply. Do you see the pages flash briefly before they 
load? What browser are you using?

FOUC = Flash Of Unstyled Content. It is when your css loads after the 
page loads and IE shows the page "flashing" with no style for a second.

Riva

Christopher Blake wrote:
> whats fouc?
> I can't see much the matter.
>
> Christopher Blake
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 07816163420
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[css-d] FOUC problem

[Portman]

Hi all,

I have a FOUC problem on one of my websites and I have tried all the 
fixes I can think of but nothing is helping. Would someone mind taking a 
look and letting me know what the problem is? 
http://www.starqualitydesigns.com/contempo

Thanks,
Riva
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem?

[Dr. Martin Krumme]

Hi Francky,

francky wrote:
> To diminish the effect, you can place the logo and the other sidebar 
> images in the background: then they don't show in the flash up&down. :-)
> I tested this with the logo (right side images not yet done).

that's a nice idea. Thank you for the example. I will certainly try that 
on the right sidebar.

> Then I noticed that in IE the first arrow in the list after the list 
> heading doesn't show. That can be repaired by adding {position: 
> relative} to the dl.

And thank you for the sharp view. Another way to repair that is to 
insert "height: 1%" into an ie-stylesheet. But your method is the simple 
and better way.

Have nice christmas days!

Martin
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem?

[Dr. Martin Krumme]

~davidLaakso wrote:

> When scrolling down, and then re-loading, the page jumps to the top and 
> simultaneously flashes the *styled* content. AFAIK, this is correct 
> behavior.
> FOUC is usually associated with the CSS @import rule, which you do not 
> seem to be using.

David,

obviously I used the wrong term - it should be "FOSC" ("styled 
content"). I remarked the flashing and concluded the wrong, the more so 
as FF does not behave in that way. Anyway, thank you very much for 
clarification.

Have I nice christmas.

Martin
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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem?

[francky]

~davidLaakso wrote:

>Martin Krumme wrote:
>  
>
>>[...]
>>If you scroll down and refresh the page, you will see that the content 
>>of the sidebar is displayed for a second or so. How could I prevent that?
>>
>>The url is http://www.nees.uni-bonn.de/2007/test.html  
>>
>>
>[...]
>When scrolling down, and then re-loading, the page jumps to the top and 
>simultaneously flashes the *styled* content. AFAIK, this is correct 
>behavior.
>FOUC is usually associated with the CSS @import rule, which you do not 
>seem to be using.
>But, I could be wrong-- maybe someone else can see unstyled content on 
>reload?
>Best,
>~dL
>  
>
Hi Martin, hi ~dL and hello world,
Me too: I see the page jumping up & down in IE(6), styled with images 
and background colors. I guess it is the IE rendering method. [1] 
Sometimes an IE-only meta command to delay the show is helping (to get 
the images out of the cache, but if IE is clientside cache disabled this 
doesn't help).

To diminish the effect, you can place the logo and the other sidebar 
images in the background: then they don't show in the flash up&down. :-)
I tested this with the logo (right side images not yet done).

* Testpage
  

Then I noticed that in IE the first arrow in the list after the list 
heading doesn't show. That can be repaired by adding {position: 
relative} to the dl (another ~dl). ;-)

Hope this helps,
Succes and greetings,

francky

[1]
Or maybe it is a manifestation of what I've called the "IE long page 
bug" 



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Re: [css-d] FOUC problem?

[~davidLaakso]

Martin Krumme wrote:
> I have a problem with a page in IE. I presume it is a fouc-issue. I 
> hoped to resolve that problem by simply inserting an empty stylesheet, 
> but the problem remains.
>
> If you scroll down and refresh the page, you will see that the content 
> of the sidebar is displayed for a second or so. How could I prevent that?
>
> The url is http://www.nees.uni-bonn.de/2007/test.html
> Martin
>   
In both ie/6 an ie/7, I see no "flash of *unstyled* content." I tried 
this several times-- clearing the cache each time.
When scrolling down, and then re-loading, the page jumps to the top and 
simultaneously flashes the *styled* content. AFAIK, this is correct 
behavior.
FOUC is usually associated with the CSS @import rule, which you do not 
seem to be using.
But, I could be wrong-- maybe someone else can see unstyled content on 
reload?
Best,
~dL

-- 
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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[css-d] FOUC problem?

[Martin Krumme]

I have a problem with a page in IE. I presume it is a fouc-issue. I 
hoped to resolve that problem by simply inserting an empty stylesheet, 
but the problem remains.

If you scroll down and refresh the page, you will see that the content 
of the sidebar is displayed for a second or so. How could I prevent that?

The url is http://www.nees.uni-bonn.de/2007/test.html

Thank you for helping.

Martin
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