[css-d] General question on tables
I have a general question on tables. I am noticing many, many web sites out there are still using tables...particularly web sites, such as Monster.com that have multiple blocks of content. I have eliminated tables from all my web sites and use float for blocks of text, but my websites are fairly simple. In looking for freelance web design positions, I have noticed that the more complex websites that the clients reference (as to the type of site they are looking for) use tables. So, are tables totally taboo for complex, block-style sites? If so, why? They certainly would be a lot easier than trying to use float for multiple blocks of contentI have problems getting the floats to work the same between browsers. I am also noticing that lots of designers appear to design a page of graphics in Photoshop, then slice it up and use html area coordinates to arrange all the pieces in a table acording to area tags.This definitely allows for more creative web site designdoes anyone have any opinions on this method? If I do use tables to prepare mulitple-block type sites, I wouldn't want to do the whole site as table, just the various blocks. Could someone let me know the best way to do these types of sites? Debbie __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] General question on tables
This definitely allows for more creative web site design I beg to differ... http://www.csszengaarden.com Select any design on the right-hand sidebar. The vast majority are extremely creative. IMHO, this proves anything can be acheived with CSS. That being said, I still use tables when there is absolutely no other way to give the designer (here, anyway) what he/she wants. And that includes an unsuccessful, fact-filled attempt to talk him out of what he's trying to accomplish - usually for no good reason other than just because. And it's usually for a small part of a site, not the whole structure. My 2¢... -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] General question on tables
Please, Debby, not again tables vs CSS! http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=TablesVsDivs As to your questions: - You sell your knowledge to the client, if we always did the same sites that the clients showed us, we'd be stuck in 1997 until now. The client does not care what you use, as long as it looks the same as he wants it or you can show him why it shouldn't look that way. If you keep shtum about NOT using tables you can easily sell him a redesign that takes you two hours and charge him 10 later on. - A lot of sites used tables as they are either old (never change a running system), consciously made a decision to support really old browsers (Netscape4) or use systems that have been developed during the times when table layouts were the one and only means of developing multi column layouts (older CMS / WYSIWYG editors) - the designing in photoshop and cutting the site up to put it in a table again (which actually Image Ready can do for you) is a really old school approach to web design that makes a lot of assumptions about the content of the web site. What if the amount of menu elements changes? What if there is another language version and the Finnish or German menu doesn't fit the same space as the English one? You are much safer going the other way around - properly structured content with a clever IA and much space for growth and the site can become a lot more flexible for changing needs of your client - and they will change their mind! - If you are not planning to use one big table for layout then you might as well not use tables at all. Tables are IMHO only necessary when your design is overly unforgiving and treats the screen like an image rather than a display. Check out Bulletproof Web Design by Dan Cederholm when you go to the bookstore next time. It is a very very very good book on that whole subject. -- Chris Heilmann Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com Writing: http://icant.co.uk/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] General question on tables
This definitely allows for more creative web site design I beg to differ... http://www.csszengaarden.com Must be the dutch/swedish version. http://www.csszengarden.com is the correct one. Select any design on the right-hand sidebar. The vast majority are extremely creative. IMHO, this proves anything can be acheived with CSS. Actually I don't consider it a good showcase for the flexibility of CSS, it shows what you can do with CSS to create nice designs. I found especially in the last year showing Zengarden to clients a bad move as they ask you to implement the same designs (which are in a lot of cases just showcasing image replacement) in the CMS driven multilingual site. Dave actually mentions something like this in the book, too, which is a good read. Try resizing the font in most designs to see how they break. I am not dissing Zengarden, I just point out that it is not a good showcase for the flexibility of CSS layouts or CSS in General. For its beauty, yes. Maybe it is time to go one step further and create a showcase for the flexibility of CSS vs. strict table layouts. The beauty of resizing. I tried a year ago with http://www.csstoolshed.com and will ditch it soon as not many cared. That being said, I still use tables when there is absolutely no other way to give the designer (here, anyway) what he/she wants. And that includes an unsuccessful, fact-filled attempt to talk him out of what he's trying to accomplish - usually for no good reason other than just because. And it's usually for a small part of a site, not the whole structure. Yes, there are some still around... -- Chris Heilmann Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com Writing: http://icant.co.uk/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] General question on tables
Try resizing the font in most designs to see how they break. Very true. However, most (if not all) table based sites will break too. I was responding to the idea that table based allows more creativity. I do agree with your points, though. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] General question on tables
Please, Debby, not again tables vs CSS! http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=TablesVsDivs Uh-oh, it appears I may have opened up an old can of worms here...if so I truly apologize...Thanks for the link and the info Christian, and for your info as well Tom...I will just refer to that... Debbie __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] General question on tables
iorhael wrote: Please, Debby, not again tables vs CSS! http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=TablesVsDivs Uh-oh, it appears I may have opened up an old can of worms here... The subject tends to come up from time to time :-) May I also point out the existence of 'the CSS table model'... http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html ...that can be used to mimic the look of a table-structure - or parts of it, when needed. Now, if only IE could handle a little bit more of those standards, and the other browsers were more in agreement on what those standards should result in... Wouldn't that be nice ;-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
