Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Alan Gresley]

On 12/02/2011 9:18 AM, James Sheffer wrote:

George-

[snip]

My idea is that this will all be torn down and rebuilt without the
use of the tables but for not I'm hoping to get it to work with the
tables until I have more time...



Do it bit by bit. Just one segment of the HTML.



  href="index.lasso">Shop
  src="graphics/nav_menu_div.gif">			
  href="thetoyz-gift_cards.lasso">Gift Cards
  src="graphics/nav_menu_div.gif">			
  href="http://forums.thetoyz.com";>Forums
  src="graphics/nav_menu_div.gif">			
  href="thetoyz-signin.lasso">Members (href="thetoyz-members.lasso?page=middle_table_signout.inc">log out)
  src="graphics/nav_menu_div.gif">
  href="thetoyz_cart.lasso?action=list">Checkout
  
  
  
  




Remove all the table elements  and  and style attributes. 
This will leave you with just the s and the s which can be 
wrapped in a  (replacing ) but still live and be part of the 
.



  Shop
   
  Gift Cards
  
  http://forums.thetoyz.com";>Forums
  
  Members (href="thetoyz-members.lasso?page=middle_table_signout.inc">log out)

  
  Checkout
  
  
  
  


It will also render the same. No CSS is needed but you are left with 
less redundant code. At this moment this is primary an issue with HTML 
tag soup. This must be rectified before we can truly help. Also it will 
stop the list mum having to step in since this is not quiet concerning 
CSS as yet.



--
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Alan Gresley]

On 12/02/2011 9:10 AM, Gail Issen wrote:

Also,
if you have never worked with the validator before, you may be surprised to
see that correcting one error frequently also corrects a number of others as
well. For this reason, I suggest that you revalidate each time after you
correct an error.



To take it one step further, if the validater reports say 4 errors, 
fixing some or all of them may in turn reveal more errors.




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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[G.Sørtun]

On 11.02.2011 23:18, James Sheffer wrote:

George-

Actually, the image "thetoyz_logo.jpg" is just the part "up to" the "shop" link.  The rest of the 
"image" is actually a background image that is repeated (a 5px wide image of only the blue bar). On top of that 
background image are the text links and the "separator" 2px vertical images.


I know what that image is, as I always download and test out my 
advices/solutions on the OP's page(s) before posting. Just give the 
image a 500 px white-space (extra width) on the right side and repeat 
the last 10px fifty times onto that white space. That image will act as 
a background behind the navigation when floated and "pulled in" by 500px 
at the right end, since floats with negative back-side margins don't 
push table-cells. Perfect alignment and gap-closing is guaranteed in IE6 
upwards - until those extra 500px are "used up".


It's a 10 year old trick that I use all the time, but not in 
table-layouts... :-)


regards
Georg

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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


If the code is not valid, you cannot predict how the page will be
displayed. Fixing it may solve your problem.


Quite correct.


Invalid HTML may *be* the issue. You cannot know until you have
fixed it.


Also correct.


The number of error shown may be misleading. Often, fixing one will
also correct several subsequent errors. Start with the first error,
then check it again. Repeat as necessary.


And correct again.  I can find no fault with Chris's logic,
and feel that his first reply was perfectly reasonable in
the circumstances.

Philip Taylor
--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[James Sheffer]

George-

Actually, the image "thetoyz_logo.jpg" is just the part "up to" the "shop" 
link.  The rest of the "image" is actually a background image that is repeated 
(a 5px wide image of only the blue bar). On top of that background image are 
the text links and the "separator" 2px vertical images.

Back when this was done, it was tricky because of the "search box" fitting 
where it does (It's too long to try and explain why it was done this way, but 
it worked at the time!).

My idea is that this will all be torn down and rebuilt without the use of the 
tables but for not I'm hoping to get it to work with the tables until I have 
more time...

Your idea does, however, point me in a different direction that I may be able 
to make work by applying it to the smaller background image :-)

James


On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:50 PM, G.Sørtun wrote:

> 
>> I've been designing/developing web sites since 1996 or so, so I've made my 
>> fair share of mistakes :-)
> 
> Welcome to the club... :-)
> 
>> http://new.thetoyz.com/
> 
> Make the right end of the 'graphics/thetoyz_logo.jpg' image sooo much longer 
> - 500-1000 px or something - and style it:
> 
> float: left; margin-right: -___px;
> 
> ('___' being the added length of that image, and notice the "-" minus-sign 
> before that value.)
> 
> That will make the image stretch past the table-cell and under the 
> navigation-cell and "bridge" the gap.
> 
> And fix what you can of the non-valid code, when you get around to it ;-)
> 
> regards
>Georg
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:


Thanks for the validation news - I guess If I asked someone to
validate my code I would have put in the email...


   If the code is not valid, you cannot predict how the page will be
   displayed. Fixing it may solve your problem.


I also guess since I'm having an issue with this page that it
obviously wouldn't validate correctly and I wouldn't be spending my
time validating it until I fixed the issue.


   Invalid HTML may *be* the issue. You cannot know until you have
   fixed it.


   The number of error shown may be misleading. Often, fixing one will
   also correct several subsequent errors. Start with the first error,
   then check it again. Repeat as necessary.

--
   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Rich M]

Good luck with the fix. For what it's worth, I glanced over some of 
those validation errors and a fair amount are associated with the markup 
being inconsistent with the doc type declared.


http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd";>
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>

The site is declaring itself to serve XHTML 1.0 Strict, which means HTML 
elements/tags should be in all lower case, attributes surrounded by 
quotation marks, and all elements to be explicitly closed, among other 
things.


When you get around to it, you might want to consider changing your 
DOCTYPE or updating to XHTML restrictions.


Regards,
Rich


On 02/11/2011 05:07 PM, James Sheffer wrote:

Tom-

I understand - I guess I was just looking for a possible solution to my problem 
and not what I got from Chris.

It's been a bad day but I'm not one to blame my actions on that, so I do 
apologize to all (including Chris)...

I do understand the "invalid code" issue, and perhaps it does have something to 
do with it but it doesn't seem like that is the issue with this specific problem here...

Thanks for the reply, and I am going to go and work with what Georg sent :-)

James

On Feb 11, 2011, at 4:02 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:


Though Chris *may* have sounded a bit curt (email is notorious for not
conveying tone), it's fair for others to assume that your issue may be
*because* of invalid code. Not the other way around.

That said, Georg, as always, has a fine solution for the nav gap. Give
that a go. Then try tackling the errors. Fixing them may fix a lot of
other things. Good luck.



On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, James Sheffer  wrote:

Chris-

Thanks for the validation news - I guess If I asked someone to validate my code 
I would have put in the email...

I also guess since I'm having an issue with this page that it obviously 
wouldn't validate correctly and I wouldn't be spending my time validating it 
until I fixed the issue.

Don't fall off your high horse...

Cheers!

James




On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:

...

http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc

   Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
   

   Once the errors are fixed, ask again.


--
   Chris F.A. Johnson,
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com

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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[John Beales]

Also, 

> http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc
 
  Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
  
 

Yeah, that's kind of a huge number, but don't be too discouraged.  I haven't 
looked at your code, but often the validator will find something 
off, (like a malformed doctype or something), and then simply declare every 
single item on the page as an error.  With an error rate that high
I would look for something like that, and maybe fixing 636 errors and 576 
warnings will finish your day well ;)

John


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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Gail Issen]

James,

Chris came across very abruptly, but he does have a valid point. 

Very frequently, once you get rid of the validation errors, you find that
your site displays as you intended. A lot of your errors deal with the meta
tags. As a first step, you may want to comment out these lines in your code
so that you will have to deal with a more manageable number of errors. Also,
if you have never worked with the validator before, you may be surprised to
see that correcting one error frequently also corrects a number of others as
well. For this reason, I suggest that you revalidate each time after you
correct an error.

Best of luck, and please let us look at your site again after you have
corrected the validation errors.
-- 
Gail


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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Chris Blake]

On 12/02/2011, at 6:02 AM, Tom Livingston wrote:


Though Chris *may* have sounded a bit curt (email is notorious for not
conveying tone), it's fair for others to assume that your issue may be
*because* of invalid code. Not the other way around.


I agree, he wasn't being nasty. It's just standard for the list to  
validate before posting.


Good luck



That said, Georg, as always, has a fine solution for the nav gap. Give
that a go. Then try tackling the errors. Fixing them may fix a lot of
other things. Good luck.



On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, James Sheffer > wrote:

Chris-

Thanks for the validation news - I guess If I asked someone to  
validate my code I would have put in the email...


I also guess since I'm having an issue with this page that it  
obviously wouldn't validate correctly and I wouldn't be spending my  
time validating it until I fixed the issue.


Don't fall off your high horse...

Cheers!

James




On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:

...

http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc


  Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
  


  Once the errors are fixed, ask again.


--
  Chris F.A. Johnson, 
  Author:
  Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
  Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005,  
Apress)

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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[James Sheffer]

Tom-

I understand - I guess I was just looking for a possible solution to my problem 
and not what I got from Chris.

It's been a bad day but I'm not one to blame my actions on that, so I do 
apologize to all (including Chris)...

I do understand the "invalid code" issue, and perhaps it does have something to 
do with it but it doesn't seem like that is the issue with this specific 
problem here...

Thanks for the reply, and I am going to go and work with what Georg sent :-)

James

On Feb 11, 2011, at 4:02 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:

> Though Chris *may* have sounded a bit curt (email is notorious for not
> conveying tone), it's fair for others to assume that your issue may be
> *because* of invalid code. Not the other way around.
> 
> That said, Georg, as always, has a fine solution for the nav gap. Give
> that a go. Then try tackling the errors. Fixing them may fix a lot of
> other things. Good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, James Sheffer  
> wrote:
>> Chris-
>> 
>> Thanks for the validation news - I guess If I asked someone to validate my 
>> code I would have put in the email...
>> 
>> I also guess since I'm having an issue with this page that it obviously 
>> wouldn't validate correctly and I wouldn't be spending my time validating it 
>> until I fixed the issue.
>> 
>> Don't fall off your high horse...
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> James
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...
 http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc
>>> 
>>>   Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
>>>   
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Once the errors are fixed, ask again.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>>   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
>>>   Author:
>>>   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
>>>   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>>> __
>>> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
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>> 
>> __
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com

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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Tom Livingston]

Though Chris *may* have sounded a bit curt (email is notorious for not
conveying tone), it's fair for others to assume that your issue may be
*because* of invalid code. Not the other way around.

That said, Georg, as always, has a fine solution for the nav gap. Give
that a go. Then try tackling the errors. Fixing them may fix a lot of
other things. Good luck.



On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, James Sheffer  wrote:
> Chris-
>
> Thanks for the validation news - I guess If I asked someone to validate my 
> code I would have put in the email...
>
> I also guess since I'm having an issue with this page that it obviously 
> wouldn't validate correctly and I wouldn't be spending my time validating it 
> until I fixed the issue.
>
> Don't fall off your high horse...
>
> Cheers!
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>> http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc
>>
>>   Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
>>   
>> 
>>
>>   Once the errors are fixed, ask again.
>>
>>
>> --
>>   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
>>   Author:
>>   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
>>   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>> __
>> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
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>
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>



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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[James Sheffer]

Chris-

Thanks for the validation news - I guess If I asked someone to validate my code 
I would have put in the email...

I also guess since I'm having an issue with this page that it obviously 
wouldn't validate correctly and I wouldn't be spending my time validating it 
until I fixed the issue.

Don't fall off your high horse...

Cheers!

James




On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:
> 
> ...
>> http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc
> 
>   Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
>   
> 
> 
>   Once the errors are fixed, ask again.
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
>   Author:
>   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
>   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
> __
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[G.Sørtun]

I've been designing/developing web sites since 1996 or so, so I've made my fair 
share of mistakes :-)


Welcome to the club... :-)


http://new.thetoyz.com/


Make the right end of the 'graphics/thetoyz_logo.jpg' image sooo much 
longer - 500-1000 px or something - and style it:


float: left; margin-right: -___px;

('___' being the added length of that image, and notice the "-" 
minus-sign before that value.)


That will make the image stretch past the table-cell and under the 
navigation-cell and "bridge" the gap.


And fix what you can of the non-valid code, when you get around to it ;-)

regards
Georg
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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[James Sheffer]

Not sure if this message got through so I apologize for the re-post if it did 
:-)

--
Sorry all, I'm not sure if i'm coming or going today!

I had forgot to set up our external DNS server for the address 
http://new.thetoyz.com

It is now set up and should be pointing to the server.

The page to see is actually here:

http://new.thetoyz.com/index1.lasso (note the index1.lasso instead of 
index.lasso)

Here's the link again for the page displaying the table code:

http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc

Again, apologies - It's been one of those days!

James

On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:11 PM, James Sheffer wrote:

> Hello everyone!
> 
> Glancing through the posts in the archive, this seemed to be a very active 
> list so I decided to join and check it out - I hope I'm right!
> 
> I've been designing/developing web sites since 1996 or so, so I've made my 
> fair share of mistakes :-)
> 
> For the past several years I've been using more and more CSS in my work.
> 
> Right now I'm in the process of rebuilding a site I built 6-7 years ago, 
> which was almost all built using HTML tables at the time.
> 
> I'm converting it over to mostly CSS (The exception of two places, the "top 
> navigation" and the "middle section (which will get converted in the next few 
> days).
> 
> I've run into a problem that I can't figure out.  I'm using a three column 
> layout with the middle column being "fluid".  I haven't really built a 
> "production ready" site from the ground up using CSS so please bear with me 
> on this!
> 
> Unfortunately I have a problem with the top navigation creating a "gap" when 
> stretched out.  You can see the rebuild here (not complete and the links 
> don't work yet):
> 
> http://new.thetoyz.com/
> 
> Notice in the blue nav bar just before the link "shop" that a gap forms when 
> the page is stretched out. (I know there are a few other issues, like the 
> "search box" and "bottom nav" but I'm not concerned with those at the moment 
> - one thing at a time :-)
> 
> As I said earlier, this is actually a table, utilizing a combination of 
> background graphics (The solid blue bar) and images (the "spacer bars between 
> the links).
> 
> Can anyone figure out a way to get rid of this "gap"?
> 
> For now, I was going to leave this portion as an HTML table until I had time 
> to convert it using all CSS, but I'm open to suggestions either using 
> strictly CSS or as it currently is as tables...
> 
> I uploaded the code to a page called: navcode.abc (using abc should cause 
> your browser to open it showing the code) rather than including it here and 
> filling up the post.  If it is easier, I can send the code to the list, just 
> let me know!
> 
> http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance and please don't flame me for using tables here... :-)
> 
> James Sheffer,
> 
> The HigherPowered Team!
> 
> supp...@higherpowered.com  sa...@higherpowered.com
> Web Design & Development http://www.higherpowered.com
> phone:  469-256-0268   
> "We help businesses succeed on the web!"
> ---
> 
> __
> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
> List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

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Re: [css-d] New to the list and a question..

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, James Sheffer wrote:

...

http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc


   Wow! 636 Errors, 576 warning(s)
   

   Once the errors are fixed, ask again.


--
   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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[css-d] New to the list and a question..

[James Sheffer]

Hello everyone!

Glancing through the posts in the archive, this seemed to be a very active list 
so I decided to join and check it out - I hope I'm right!

I've been designing/developing web sites since 1996 or so, so I've made my fair 
share of mistakes :-)

For the past several years I've been using more and more CSS in my work.

Right now I'm in the process of rebuilding a site I built 6-7 years ago, which 
was almost all built using HTML tables at the time.

I'm converting it over to mostly CSS (The exception of two places, the "top 
navigation" and the "middle section (which will get converted in the next few 
days).

I've run into a problem that I can't figure out.  I'm using a three column 
layout with the middle column being "fluid".  I haven't really built a 
"production ready" site from the ground up using CSS so please bear with me on 
this!

Unfortunately I have a problem with the top navigation creating a "gap" when 
stretched out.  You can see the rebuild here (not complete and the links don't 
work yet):

http://new.thetoyz.com/

Notice in the blue nav bar just before the link "shop" that a gap forms when 
the page is stretched out. (I know there are a few other issues, like the 
"search box" and "bottom nav" but I'm not concerned with those at the moment - 
one thing at a time :-)

As I said earlier, this is actually a table, utilizing a combination of 
background graphics (The solid blue bar) and images (the "spacer bars between 
the links).

Can anyone figure out a way to get rid of this "gap"?

For now, I was going to leave this portion as an HTML table until I had time to 
convert it using all CSS, but I'm open to suggestions either using strictly CSS 
or as it currently is as tables...

I uploaded the code to a page called: navcode.abc (using abc should cause your 
browser to open it showing the code) rather than including it here and filling 
up the post.  If it is easier, I can send the code to the list, just let me 
know!

http://new.thetoyz.com/navcode.abc


Thanks in advance and please don't flame me for using tables here... :-)

James Sheffer,

The HigherPowered Team!

supp...@higherpowered.com  sa...@higherpowered.com
Web Design & Development http://www.higherpowered.com
phone:  469-256-0268   
 "We help businesses succeed on the web!"
 ---

__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/