Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[Pringle, Ron]

> > >You have half a dozen top level menu items. That should be 
> represented
> > >as one list with half a dozen list items in it, not as half a dozen
> > >lists with only a single item in each.
> >
> > I'm not sure what your objection is here. Are you saying there are
> > rules to using a list?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> foo, bar, baz
> 
> That's a list of three items. It isn't three lists of one item. A list
> with one item on it isn't really a list.

I believe what David is trying to get at is that your navigation should be
marked up in a way that indicates that there is a relationship between the
navigational items. This relationship helps people who cannot or choose not
to interact with the navigation visually.

One way to create that relationship is to create a list of links, where each
link is one list item  in an ordered  or unordered  list. You
can then style that list of links to appear horizontally or vertically and
relate to each other visually, while still maintaining that relationship
even when the links are unstyled for whatever reason.

In my opinion, if you're going to create a list containing only one item for
each link in your menu, you'd be better off enclosing each link in a 
tag and styling it that way.

Regards,
Ron
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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[tedd]

David:

>  > And, my code is not nonsense to me -- I understand it.
>
>That's nice - but I would expect markup to be written for browsers,
>not for its own author. :)

It must make sense to the browsers, because it works. If it was 
nonsense, wouldn't the browsers object? And, if your reasoning is 
that if a single browsers objects, then the code is nonsense, then 
isn't everything we do nonsense because very little works on all 
browsers?

The term "nonsense" in this discussion is really nonsense, isn't it?

>  > >You have half a dozen top level menu items. That should be represented
>>  >as one list with half a dozen list items in it, not as half a dozen
>>  >lists with only a single item in each.
>>
>>  I'm not sure what your objection is here. Are you saying there are
>>  rules to using a list?
>
>Yes.
>
>foo, bar, baz
>
>That's a list of three items. It isn't three lists of one item. A list
>with one item on it isn't really a list.
>
>http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/list_1?view=uk

My wife often sends me to the store with her shopping list and that 
often has one item on it. Do you want to tell her that her list is 
not a list? Also, if you have a list of five things to do and you 
finish four of them, is your list no longer a list?

This is starting to sound like the age old, a placeholder is not a 
number argument.

I used my single item list as a category holder to accomplish a 
presentation goal. This is not dissimilar to your site where you have 
a single list item of "Photo gallery". I understand that you simply 
listed all the categories you offer -- some have sub categories and 
some don't.

In my menu demo, all the main items fall under the main heading of 
"category" and some have subordinate lists and some don't.

I see that your goal here is to point out that my main category items 
are not a list, but they are. They are just not nested. I probably 
could do that, but it would add to the complexity and volume of code 
-- both of which are not desirable.

I see your point, do you see mine?

tedd

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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[David Dorward]

On 02/11/05, tedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And, my code is not nonsense to me -- I understand it.

That's nice - but I would expect markup to be written for browsers,
not for its own author. :)

> >You have half a dozen top level menu items. That should be represented
> >as one list with half a dozen list items in it, not as half a dozen
> >lists with only a single item in each.
>
> I'm not sure what your objection is here. Are you saying there are
> rules to using a list?

Yes.

foo, bar, baz

That's a list of three items. It isn't three lists of one item. A list
with one item on it isn't really a list.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/list_1?view=uk

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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[tedd]

>On 01/11/05, tedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  >Why is each top level item in a list with just one item in it?
>>
>>  To mimic the typical menu layout

David Doward wrote:

>Layout is the job of CSS, you shouldn't have to write nonsensical
>markup to represent that.

Well... css is doing the job of layout.

And, my code is not nonsense to me -- I understand it.

>You have half a dozen top level menu items. That should be represented
>as one list with half a dozen list items in it, not as half a dozen
>lists with only a single item in each.

I'm not sure what your objection is here. Are you saying there are 
rules to using a list?

What I am trying to do is to create a way for web processes to mimic 
standard GUI found in typical computer applications with respect to 
normal and customary menu operation. I believe that I have 
accomplished this feat in some fashion -- or at least it meets my 
expectations.

Now, can you be more specific about your objections?

Thanks for your review and comment.

tedd

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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[David Dorward]

On 01/11/05, tedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Why is each top level item in a list with just one item in it?
>
> To mimic the typical menu layout

Layout is the job of CSS, you shouldn't have to write nonsensical
markup to represent that.

You have half a dozen top level menu items. That should be represented
as one list with half a dozen list items in it, not as half a dozen
lists with only a single item in each.

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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[tedd]

David:

I'll try to answer your questions as I can -- for now:

>Why is each top level item in a list with just one item in it?

To mimic the typical menu layout you find in applications.

You see, in any application you may have, the top menu item is 
usually a category and, as such, seldom takes you anywhere. That's 
the reason I separated them out as a single item and the only item 
that uses a down-arrow.

tedd
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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[Christian Heilmann]

> > Good job! One comment/question: have you
> > tried/considered keyboard navigation? Would it be
> > possible to update the code to accommodate tabbing and
> > selection of child sub menus in the drop downs using
> > the keyboard?
>
> I wrote a script to take care of this. It goes only one level deep but could
> be modified to accomodate the extra level.
> http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

Nice but please not again this discussion...

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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[Thierry Koblentz]

Krassy wrote:
> Good job! One comment/question: have you
> tried/considered keyboard navigation? Would it be
> possible to update the code to accommodate tabbing and
> selection of child sub menus in the drop downs using
> the keyboard?

I wrote a script to take care of this. It goes only one level deep but could
be modified to accomodate the extra level.
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[Krassy]

--- tedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.sperling.com/examples/menuh/
> --- for how it works, looks, and if it is
> technically correct.

Hi Tedd,

Good job! One comment/question: have you
tried/considered keyboard navigation? Would it be
possible to update the code to accommodate tabbing and
selection of child sub menus in the drop downs using
the keyboard?

Cheers,
Krassy



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Re: [css-d] Site Page Check please.

[David Dorward]

On 01/11/05, tedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please review this page --
> http://www.sperling.com/examples/menuh/

In Opera, the drop down menu appears over the preceeding paragraph and
not in the gap.

It suffers the usual problem of requiring users to have the motor
skills to track the menu exactly (e.g. no diagonal mouse movement to
get from 2:5 to 2:5:5

Lynx has the word "stop" splattered all over the place. It looks like
you need to seriously rethink you alt text.

Why is each top level item in a list with just one item in it?

Keyboard navigation to subitems appears to be impossible

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[css-d] Site Page Check please.

[tedd]

Hi gang:

Please review this page --

http://www.sperling.com/examples/menuh/

--- for how it works, looks, and if it is technically correct.

Thanks in advance for your review, suggestions, or corrections.

tedd

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