subject:"Re\: \[CTRL\] Holocaust Industry and Zionism \: SF Indymedia"

-Caveat Lector-
I meant to link here - http://www.ummah.net/unity/palestine/slaves1.htm
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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 12/23/2002 12:47:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Israel does much wrong. It treats Palestinians very badly. I have seen no indication of slavery. Maybe I just never saw it, and itâs hidden â but I have never seen it.

Try this - http://www.matriots.com/~wsd/pg/white-slave.html
Israel is the leading practitioner of the practice of white slavery in the world.

Bill.
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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-

12/23/02 12:05:27 PM, William Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Isn't it better to help Volkswagen out than to be killed?
>  The point was that these Zionists were given breaks that even common German
>  citizens were not. Seems to me that this collaboration is rather interesting.

I'm not sure the folks who remained in Germany were "Zionists" for the most part.  They
were considered to be highly undesireable and given the war efforts on the Eastern 
Front,
they were replacements for those who were being frozen to death on the plains and in 
the
Steppe.

Slavery is an indefensible institution for the most part.  Just ask who knows how many 
GIs
who are suffering from Gulf War Syndrome and a variety of other afflictions like being
governed by a fellow who bugged out of his commitment while those who spent their lives
making sure he would be replaced.  Of course, the GIs volunteer(ed) and did and do get
moolah for their efforts.  Yet, being denied care and treatment for those things they 
HAD to
do (turning down a paycheck or saying "I quit" don't keep no one outta 
Leavenworth)(here
the moolah is like the slaves' housing and food) as a modern form of indentured 
servitude.
Yes, there are benefits to being "freed" just as their are benefits to having been 
"chained".

We can debate all the live long day what was better ... certain death or the 
emaciation of
body and soul with life or death as certain as the toss of a coin ... BUT a lot 
depends on
whether that determination is made by the individuals concerned or the observors.
Schindler's list of folks (read the book instead) apparently felt that being workers 
was
better than being wormers.  Thom Jefferson's dilemma was multifold given his position 
and
experience.  Did he keep his people in relative safety and security or did he let them 
go to
uncertain futures?  Did he let them go on out to assimilate or would he have risked 
another
Haiti (the reason for his closing the sale on the Louisiana Purchase)?  Did he allow 
the
status quo or was he going to sacrifice everything he gained by establishing the United
States to allow it to dissolve in a Civil War?

We can sit back all the live long day and "doo-da, doo-da" about what shoulda been done
or what coulda been done or what woulda been done, strutting like barnyard cockfowl
about how things mighta been different and perhaps better -- through the lens of the 
eyes
of our times.  Don't forget that many if not most of our forebears made these 
judgments for
us when they told their Motherlands and Fatherlands to "kiss off" and came to North
America ... many to become wage and other kinds of slaves.  There was a different dream
that kept them going, though.  Shackled yes; and alive.  Work made some people free.

It's all a matter of degree that none of us can understand except through our own 
reason
and experience and reasons.

A<>E<>R

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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

Title: Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia
-Caveat Lector-

on 12/23/02 1:22 PM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Being forced to work as a slave is NOT being given a break

Compared to being left to die it is.

You imply an exclusionary principle that just did not exist – they were worked as slaves – to death. They were killed at the drop of a hat – because according to the Nazi’s own mythos, there was an unending supply of inferior peoples to enslave, so you didn’t have to keep them healthy, just working until replaced.

Don't be overly dramatic now! The Zionists were working hand-in-hand with the Nazi regime...and compared to the poor Germans of Dresden this wasn't a bad deal.

America’s evil in Dresden does not mitigate the Nazi’s evil. It only compounds the evil of the entire time. It only muddies the impossibly pristine concepts of good and evil.

And here is a place where a phrase like “some but not all” (sumbinal as RA wilson wrote) would help.
Sumbinal zionists were working with Nazis. Most were not. And again I fail to see how that makes enslavement OK.

Slavery is evil and ought to be decried...like the white slavery that Israel engages in to this very day.

Israel does much wrong. It treats Palestinians very badly. I have seen no indication of slavery. Maybe I just never saw it, and it’s hidden – but I have never seen it.

I simply pointed out what Pierce was apparently trying to say and what was being distorted by people with an agenda (and the most powerful lobby in the world)

The multinational corporate ruling elite?

Bill.

-- -- -- -- --
Planet spins - so do I
neo-sufi wisdom

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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 12/23/2002 12:15:58 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Being forced to work as a slave is NOT being given a break

Compared to being left to die it is.

<>

Don't be overly dramatic now! The Zionists were working hand-in-hand with the Nazi regime...and compared to the poor Germans of Dresden this wasn't a bad deal.


<>

Slavery is evil and ought to be decried...like the white slavery that Israel engages in to this very day.

<>

Nope, I was pointing out the theory behind the late Mr. Pierce's piece...and for the record I am not a big fan of Pierce.

<>

Your quarrel is with Pierce, not me.
I simply pointed out what Pierce was apparently trying to say and what was being distorted by people with an agenda (and the most powerful lobby in the world)

Bill.




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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-

12/23/02 12:07:59 PM, thew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I think I was saying that giving money to help people who's children were
>murdered by suicide bombers, to create programs to help them deal with their
>pain is a good thing.

Undeniably.  BUT it's a little specious considering the source.

A<:>E<:>R
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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

Title: Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia
-Caveat Lector-

Being forced to work as a slave is NOT being given a break. Being herded like cattle under the threat of death to labor for the war machine that is oppressing and killing you is not humane. There were no Germans lining up for these jobs, no Germans were put out of work by Jewish affirmative action.

Yes slavery is better than genocide. Does that mean slavery is a good thing or just not the most evil thing in the world?
Is that the way we judge things now? How they compare to the worst possible fate?

Are you defending slavery? Forced labor? Labor camps? Concentration camps?

Exactly what were the breaks given to the jews in auschwitz, who were forced to labor, until they died of exhaustion and malnutrition, or were shot for not being able to work hard enough anymore?

Try this:
Sure the blacks in America were slaves, but their owners gave them houses to live in – why some times I hear they were treated almost as well as the dogs and horses.

Fucking asinine and evil comments, hidden as reasonable conversation.

on 12/23/02 1:05 PM, William Shannon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/23/2002 11:46:20 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

When you force people to work, without pay, even if you house them, it is called slavery.
It’s pretty much considered an evil thing.

To claim that people ought to be GRATEFUL to their slave masters is an argument that even the KKK could not make convincingly.

Isn't it better to help Volkswagen out than to be killed?
The point was that these Zionists were given breaks that even common German citizens were not. Seems to me that this collaboration is rather interesting.

Bill.

--
Doubt.
Doubt thyself.
Doubt even if thou doubtest thyself.
Doubt all.
Doubt even if thou doubtest all.
It seems sometimes as if beneath all conscious doubt
there lay some deepest certainty. O kill it! Slay the
snake!
The horn of the Doubt-Goat be exalted
Dive deeper, ever deeper, into the Abyss of Mind,
until thou unearth the fox THAT. On, hounds!
Yoicks! Tally-ho! Bring THAT to bay!
Then, wind the Mort!

Uncle Al. the kiddies pal

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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-

Never saw the movie - but I don't think that¹s relevant -

I think I was saying that giving money to help people who's children were
murdered by suicide bombers, to create programs to help them deal with their
pain is a good thing.


on 12/23/02 1:06 PM, Euphorian at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
> 12/23/02 11:45:48 AM, thew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>  When you force people to work, without pay, even if you house them, it is
>>  called slavery.
>>  It¹s pretty much considered an evil thing.
>>
>>  To claim that people ought to be GRATEFUL to their slave masters is an
>>  argument that even the KKK could not make convincingly.
>
> And I believe it was you who asked whether Spielberg's donations of money from
> the
> "Schindler" fund was a "good thing".
>
> This is what has always amazed me about the "Schwindler" movie ... he made
> money off of
> others' labour in support of / from the fascist regime and was rewarded later
> on for his ...
> what?  Humanitarian instincts?  There was no way he could have known -- much
> less
> anyone else -- that the people were going to be saved or starved or staved.
> With all the
> whoop-do about Bush and Ford and VW and all the others' companies making
> moolah off of
> others' forced labours and how "guilty" they were (and are), this guy
> Schindler comes off
> as a hero.
>
> It has only been AFTER the fact that Otto could be seen as a hero.  But for
> how long would
> he have kept his crewe at work had things turned out slightly differently for
> the National
> Socialists?  It all depends on how you tell the story and at which point the
> audience has
> been softened up to accept the story line.
>
>
> A<>E<>R
>
> "Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep
> your mouth
> shut."
> --- Ernest Hemingway
>
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> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 12/23/2002 11:46:20 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

When you force people to work, without pay, even if you house them, it is called slavery.
Itâs pretty much considered an evil thing.

To claim that people ought to be GRATEFUL to their slave masters is an argument that even the KKK could not make convincingly.

Bill.
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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

-Caveat Lector-

12/23/02 11:45:48 AM, thew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  When you force people to work, without pay, even if you house them, it is
>  called slavery.
>  Its pretty much considered an evil thing.
>
>  To claim that people ought to be GRATEFUL to their slave masters is an
>  argument that even the KKK could not make convincingly.

And I believe it was you who asked whether Spielberg's donations of money from the
"Schindler" fund was a "good thing".

This is what has always amazed me about the "Schwindler" movie ... he made money off of
others' labour in support of / from the fascist regime and was rewarded later on for 
his ...
what?  Humanitarian instincts?  There was no way he could have known -- much less
anyone else -- that the people were going to be saved or starved or staved.  With all 
the
whoop-do about Bush and Ford and VW and all the others' companies making moolah off of
others' forced labours and how "guilty" they were (and are), this guy Schindler comes 
off
as a hero.

It has only been AFTER the fact that Otto could be seen as a hero.  But for how long 
would
he have kept his crewe at work had things turned out slightly differently for the 
National
Socialists?  It all depends on how you tell the story and at which point the audience 
has
been softened up to accept the story line.

A<>E<>R

"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth
shut."
--- Ernest Hemingway

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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia

Title: Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia
-Caveat Lector-

To really understand the headspace of this, check this quote:

“So anyway, they were back again soon, with demands against the Volkswagen Company for having used Zionist workers during the Second World War and providing them only with room and board but not paying them union-scale wages. One might think that these Zionist workers would be grateful to Volkswagen for keeping them alive during the war, feeding them, and giving them a roof over their heads, when so many German civilians had only bombed-out ruins to live in Volkswagen wasn't the only company which had used involuntary labor during the war”

When you force people to work, without pay, even if you house them, it is called slavery.
It’s pretty much considered an evil thing.

To claim that people ought to be GRATEFUL to their slave masters is an argument that even the KKK could not make convincingly.

And as a side note – Rembrandt and Vermeer were not German.

on 12/23/02 12:19 PM, Nessie SFBG at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-Caveat Lector-
>> Original article is at http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/1552888.php. Print comments. The following post has status hidden:

* * *

I'm part of the collective that runs SF-IMC. I'm also one of the editors. I'm not the editor who hid this particular post, but only because I was asleep when it happened. Otherwise, I would have hidden it at first sight.

This article is not by Norman Finkelstein, the author of The Holocaust Industry. It is by the notorious white-supremacist and Jew-hater William Pierce, best known as the author of The Turner Diaries.

Except, apparently, for substituting "Zionist" for "Jew" or "Jewish", the article as posted is identical to Pierce's:

http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/holoshake.htm

Unfortunately, Pierce was able to use the information provided by Finkelstein for his own racist purposes, but this is the fault of those whose actions Finkelstein exposed, and not of Finkelstein, a courageous anti-Zionist Jew who has suffered serious economic retaliation for his work, including being driven out of his teaching job at the City University of New York.
Because SF-IMC practices open publishing, anyone can post any old thing they choose there. It then devolves upon the editors catch crap like this when it shows. We're all volunteers. None of us are getting paid to do this, so we have to find time between the other demands of life. Day jobs, families, pets, housekeeping, meetings and sleep all do their part to keep us busy. Nevertheless, we do our level best to hide racist propaganda as quickly as possible. Sometimes we miss a post like this. If you happen to see one we miss, please write to us at:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

We'll deal with it immediately.
We apologize profusely that this one was not caught sooner. It is not our intention to provide a soapbox for Nazis and their ilk. They try very hard sometimes to exploit our hospitality. Other times, they try to simply flood the site and make it unusable, sometimes with their own propaganda, sometimes with pure gibberish. Occasionally, one of the script kiddies among them even mounts a DOS attack against us. We spend a great deal of time fighting them off. Despite the occasional bout of tendonitis it causes, we take great pleasure in thwarting them. To live is to fight fascism. ¡No Pasaran!

* * *

For the *real* story on Holocaust revision/reparations, click here:

http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/26.html

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Re: [CTRL] Holocaust Industry and Zionism : SF Indymedia