CS: Target-.308/7.62
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The "Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading", Vol. 1, Fourth ED., page 322, begs to differ. It seems that Hornady equates the above cartridges as equal for the purposes of reloading and for ballistics. That being the case, perhaps your "M G FARNAN" wouldn't mind providing the data which points unequivocally to another source? Hornady says: "The 308 was originally designated the 7.62mm NATO." --and-- "More recently, NATO switched to the 5.56mm cartridge, commonly known as the .223 Remmington." Do note that the decimal point for the .308 in the above was also missing from the text from which I quote. ET -- There are (very) small differences between the SAAMI spec and the NATO spec, don't ask me why, perhaps through the conversion from metric. As a small note of esoterica, Imperial and US measurements are slightly different, but it is a microscopic difference. My personal view is that it is more to do with minor differences between manufacturers, e.g. Winchester .308 brass vs. RG military brass (or INDEP) than any physical difference in the case dimension specifications. In your average M60 or FAL it doesn't make much difference but in a match chamber for a TR it can. I bet if you check the maximum and minimum tolerances for brass in US measurements then in metric the tolerances will be slightly different, as people like to round off numbers. I am sure Winchester military 7.62 brass is identical to their commercial .308 brass, but we don't use Winchester military ammo. SAAMI is always coming up with daft specifications, I can't see why they don't use the military specifications for military calibre ammunition. Note for example that 9x23mm Winchester has a higher pressure specification by SAAMI than .38 Super, although 9x23 is just a rimless .38 Super. There are lots of other examples, 9x19mm is the classic one. Does anyone have any personal experience of the problem of using 7.62 NATO in a .308? I've always wondered why cases from different makers have different case capacities, in fact Winchester Match brass (rare stuff) has a higher case capacity than their regular brass. Surely if they're all following the SAAMI or NATO specification the case capacities should all be the same? When you push the limits of shooting technology I find you eventually come up against these sorts of things. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-help with Borchardt
From: "HW", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Sirs: I am the owner of a Borchardt Pistol N¦ 1700 and I am looking for a collectionist to get more information about the gun. If you know of anybody please let me know. Thank you, kind regards. Roberto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-FHM Magazine
From: Dave Reay, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >or the average American, strolling into the bedroom to find >little hank staring down the barrel of a loaded revolver, which >he found in "pops, draw under the dirty magazines", is as >common as obesity" That should have read "In Pops dirty draws, under the magazine" seems odd that Jonathon missed the obvious, everybody knows that the Americans keep a spare magazine with their loaded revolvers! The rich folk suffer from "Anorexia Nervosa", the common folk suffer from "obesity" simple "Typo" nothing to get unhinged about! After all "Young Hank" would not have gotten past the "Dirty Magazines" and would be more into "pump action" type stuff than looking down the barrel of anything except maybe his python! -- Dave Reay Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Parker Hale bust?
From: Peter H Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I heard a rumour that P-H called in the receivers today. They were not answering the phone. Don't know if it is true, but if you do business with them it would seem prudent to check. If true, well done Mr Major and Mr Blair! Your 1997 Firearms Acts have destroyed yet another great British business. Peter. www.jacksonrifles.com -- There's a bit more to it than that (if true). Parker-Hale fired their gunsmiths which was a mistake. One of the guys they got in to do some of the work had a most interesting comment to make about a Browning Hi-Power: "That gun was used by the Parachute Regiment." "How do you know?" "It says 9 PARA on it." I kid you not. The .22 AR-15s have a reputation of dubious reliability although I have been told repeatedly that the early problems were fixed. One of the ex-directors has been saying nasty things about PH but it is hard to tell if it was just sour grapes or not. They would seem worth buying out though if only because of their test range. Plus they are still the S&W distributors for the UK, for what that's worth (not much). Inpower recently lost the distribution rights for Glock as well. Glocks now cost a bit more but delivery is more reliable. While I'm in "slagging off" mode, I can't help but mention Beechwood Equipment. Am I the only one who has been kept waiting over a year (no kidding) for delivery? I also tried buying some ammo off them last year, in the end I imported the stuff myself from Switzerland. In fact if you're a copper things are beginning to look a bit tight. H&K they can get, Glock they can get, SIG perhaps if they order enough of them, but that's about it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-RIP Bill
From: Alan Phillips, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> Rather good letter in today's (2/8/00) Times on this subject Sir, If Tony Blair wants to read my emails, courtesy of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill, why shouldn't I read his memos? Yours faithfully Alan Phillips -- Okay, enough about things that are unrelated to guns! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-RIP Bill
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone worried about the RIP bill should sign up with America on Line (AOL). Much better than other servers I've tried--and it all goes through Waterford in the Republic--ie, outside UK jurisdiction. Barry Woodward. -- The quickest and easiest method is to use something like supanet or freeserve, and then create a mail account on hotmail or altavista or something similar. If your too lazy Dell net and others are based in Ireland. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.308/7.62
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve, I asked Martin Farnan about the warnings in the Bible about 7.62NATO/308Win and .223/5.56 and here is his reply. Alex - Original Message - From: Martin G Farnan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Dear Alex, > > No, we merely draw firers attention to the fact that the two cartridges may (in the case of .308/7.62) or are (in the case of .223/5.56) not be the same. To go any further, e.g. to say that "this" rifle was suitable for "that" cartridge, would be exceedingly foolish on our part. Yours sincerely M G FARNAN Shooting Manager Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-US buyback nets court officer guns
From: SSAA, [EMAIL PROTECTED] "It gets the gun off the street instead of leaving it in a closet where children or a burglar could find them," Street closets? From: News and Views Friday, July 28, 2000 http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-07-28/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-74714.asp Gun Buy-Back Backfires When Officers Cash In By MIKE CLAFFEY Daily News Staff Writer Gun buy-back program to get illegal weapons off the streets had to be altered yesterday after a stampede of court officers tried to cash in. Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes ordered changes in the initiative when he found out that court officers ù some of them in uniform ù were handing in their old .38-caliber service revolvers. Because the program had pulled in only about 200 guns since the one-month window began July 1, Hynes upped the reward on Monday from $100 to $250 per gun. "We had a surge last night of about 100 guns and they all seem to be .38 service revolvers," said a source in the prosecutor's office. One court officer collected $1,500 by turning in six guns. This is a program with good intentions to get illegal guns off the street and shouldn't be bastardized by people looking for a quick buck," said Hynes' spokesman, Kevin Davitt. "We're going to be contacting those people who abused the program and ask for our money back," Davitt said. But a spokesman for the court system, David Bookstaver, said it is not clear that the officers can be forced to do that. "District Attorney Hynes has indicated that this is really not in the spirit of what the program was designed for," Bookstaver said. But he added that court officials "have no authority" to tell the officers to give the money back. He said, however, that word was going out yesterday that court officers can no longer participate. Some court officers in Brooklyn were upset that Hynes had forbidden them from participating in the buy-back offer. The officers were allowed to keep their revolvers after they were issued 9-mm semiautomatics last year. "I have the flyer right here and it says, 'Any working handgun, sawed-off shotgun or assault rifle. No questions asked.'" said Bob Patelli a Senior Court Officers Association delegate at Brooklyn Supreme Court. "If the DA sees fit to discontinue the program, fine. But he's bound legally to pay for the guns he's already taken." Patelli added that the program was achieving its goal of getting extra guns out of circulation. "It gets the gun off the street instead of leaving it in a closet where children or a burglar could find them," he said. Last year, 659 firearms were turned in for $100 each. The money comes from drug forfeiture funds, Davitt said. "We thought that perhaps $100 was not meeting the value that some people place on these weapons," he said. To be turned in, guns must be wrapped in brown paper and can be taken to any Brooklyn precinct house. If the gun is deemed operable, the desk officer is supposed to give the person a pink voucher that can be redeemed at the district attorney's office at 350 Jay St. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-JAMA study url and author details
From: SSAA, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n5/abs/joc91749.html will take you to the report on homicide and the effect of the Brady Bill. http://www.georgetown.edu/ludwig/ will take you Jens Ludwig's homepage - Georgetown University Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-JAMA says Brady law ineffective
From: SSAA, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Study Disputes Gun Control Law's Impact By Guy Gugliotta Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, August 1, 2000; 4:22 PM In a finding that casts doubt on one of the pillars of the gun control movement, a new study published today concludes that the Brady law had no effect on firearm homicide and suicide rates in states that previously had no handgun controls. Gun control advocates criticized the study, but also said it reaffirmed the Brady Law's effectiveness in reducing gun crimes nationwide and emphasized the need for further regulation of handgun sales. The study in the Journal of the American Medical Association analyzed national homicide and suicide data between 1985 and 1997, dividing the states into two groups: 32 that installed the Brady Law handgun purchase controls in 1994, and 19 (18 states plus the District) that already had Brady-style restrictions. While the study confirmed a well-documented reduction in firearms deaths across the United States beginning in 1993-94, the data showed no difference in the overall rate of decline between the two sets of states. There was, however, a sharp drop in gun suicides among adults 55 and older in the "Brady states." Still, "there's no real convincing way to show how much of the reduction can be attributed to Brady," said Georgetown University public policy specialist Jens Ludwig, co-author of the study, along with Philip J. Cook of Duke University. The study provided a volatile new addition to the national gun control debate, and the National Rifle Association hastened to take note. "We don't always agree with the American Medical Association, but in this case common sense has prevailed," said James Jay Baker, the NRA's executive director for Legislative Action. "Schemes like the Brady waiting period have nothing to do with reducing criminal behavior." The 1994 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act requires that federally licensed firearms dealers impose a waiting period on the purchase of handguns while they conduct a background check on the purchaser. The law was enacted 13 years after former presidential press Secretary James Brady was disabled in the 1981 shooting that gravely wounded President Reagan. The gun control movement regards it as one of the most important pieces of firearms legislation ever passed. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-RIP Bill
From: "Brian Toller", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The following is culled from the Computer Buyer website and may be of interest as this bill has been mentioned before on the list. The interesting part is at the end as it appears reasonably easy to avoid the snoops if you really need to. "Inept" RIP Bill Passed 27 July - DN Wire -- The controversial Regulation of Investigatory Powers (RIP) Bill has been passed by Parliament, despite being described as "technically inept" in a new report. The Bill, which gives the police extensive powers to install "black box" interception devices on the networks of Internet service providers (ISPs) and demand keys to encrypted data, has received fierce criticism from opposition parties and independent watchdog organisations. Although several important amendments were made to the Bill by the House of Lords last week, including the allocation of ú20m to cover black box installation costs and the formation of a statutory advisory committee to oversee its implementation, concerns persist over the Bill's wording. The breadth of powers conferred by the legislation raise questions about its compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights, and RIP will make Britain the only G8 country with government access to keys (GAK) powers. After the Lords debate, Casper Bowden, director of the Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR), said, "it's zombie legislation. Although clinically dead with macabre wounds, it still lumbers on menacing both individual privacy and commercial confidence." Now his fears have been confirmed in a report by two security experts, Ian Brown and Brian Gladman. The report states that "the envisaged powers for interception and for seizure of encryption keys are technically inept," and details four "trivially easy" methods for circumventing the Bill's e-mail snooping methods. Although the Bill has been passed by Parliament, it still requires Royal Assent before it enters the statute book. Unless the Queen has been keeping her active interest in IT very well hidden, RIP should be in force before the summer recess. How to avoid being RIPped off... None of the methods suggested in the report require particular technical expertise. The first is to connect to the Internet with a smaller ISP - since the government intends to install the black boxes at a small number of large ISPs, those using smaller providers are less at risk. The cost of installing the interception devices at every ISP in the country will almost certainly be prohibitive. The second approach is to use an e-mail server located outside the UK. Since the machines themselves will be located outside this jurisdiction, enforcement agencies will be unable to access data stored on them. As for traffic between e-mail client and server, Brown and Gladman recommend using the Diffie-Hellman technique, which generates unique keys for the session and are destroyed after use. Thirdly, permanent Internet connections such as ADSL enable e-mail to be delivered directly to the user's PC, without the need for a separate e-mail server. As ADSL falls in price and becomes more popular (BT, take note), black box devices will become increasingly redundant. Currently BT subscribers will not be able to use this loophole for technical reasons. The final method takes advantage of IPv6, a new Internet Protocol currently being introduced. In addition to providing a vastly increased number of IP addresses, all data sent using IPv6 is automatically encrypted. As before, this will circumvent interception devices and render several of the Bill's provisions worthless. Joel Harrison Brian T -- I wouldn't call going to ADSL or IPv6 "trivially easy" solutions, myself. IPv6 isn't even a commercial proposition at the moment and you have to build the installation file yourself using the software from the Microsoft development website. ADSL for home use won't be available until the end of this month and it is available only in limited areas and costs L40 a month. (Plus BTopenworld still uses an email server at the moment anyway). Going to a smaller ISP is no guarantee because it may be a big ISP next week. Using a mail server outside the UK is the easiest and surest method. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Cybershooters award
From: "Howell-Jones & Partners - Kingston Office" I have now received the award which I thank you for. I will treasure it always. DAVID STEED. -- And of course, anyone can be the recipient of our outstandingly tasteful Cybershooters plaque awarded every year, you just need to make a big enough effort! (And if that won't motivate you all I don't know what will - should I throw in a trip to the local strip club.) Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Johnny Gurkha etc
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone looking for out-of-print books should check out http://www.abebooks.com http://www.powells.com which I've found very helpful. Try using a keyword search for general topics. A lot of people have a bit of our common history in their heads, or in grandad's effects. I notice the UK government is more interested in putting up museum buildings than getting our history out of the files and into the public domain on the internet. The government also exhibits an obsessive desire NOT to publicise some parts of our past - which probably accounts for it. I think that the business of putting a part of our common history into a private venture like a book in fact tends towards censoring of history for one bad reason or another and I think that web publishing of history is the better way forward. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-SAGBNI job opening
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] SAGBNI tell me they're currently considering offering Full (voting) Membership without liability insurance at a reduced rate - which, as previously discussed here, would be a more sensible use of their money for people who are already members of other shooting associations with insurance schemes. SAGBNI seem to think that this would involve transferring their DOS-based database to a Windows-based one and seem to be looking for a "data input professional" to do the job cheap. They're currently in Preston, Lancs. SAGBNI tel: 01772 200 801 Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Police shooting inquest
From: "Pete Ansbro", [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A former soldier was shot and killed by police marksmen after he had aimed an airgun at six officers" I know that circumstances may not always be accommodating but I sometimes wonder if police armed response units shouldn't be trained to use binoculars before bullets. Though this report doesn't mention whether the airgun was a rifle or a handgun, one assumes that if police shooters are trained to assess a situation, that might go so far as identifying the level of risk involved. Of course if police shooters were trained to kill first and question later, that'd be the death of anyone with a chair leg in a carrier bag. Pete -- I think in this particular situation they were justified in shooting him, he was armed with an air rifle and for all they knew it could have been an 80 ft/lb air rifle. If you point a rifle at an armed police officer, expect to get shot. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
