CS: Pol-UN Antis bleat about civilian arms sales
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rights groups slam big powers over UN arms meeting By Irwin Arieff Steve, For those who are interested, this will put a face on your enemy: http://www.ryerson.ca/itm/wcukier.html -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-handgun crime soars
Electronic Telegraph ISSUE 2057 Thursday 11 January 2001 Handgun crime soars despite Dunblane ban By Thomas Harding THE number of crimes involving handguns reached its highest level for seven years in 2000, leading the pro-gun lobby to suggest that the ban introduced after the Dunblane massacre of 16 children and a teacher has proved ineffective. The use of illegal weapons rose dramatically with 42 people killed. Richard Law, secretary of the Shooters' Rights Association, said: "This proves that the problem was not the licensed gun owners - illegal ownership was the problem in the first place. "Every year there was a slight increase in gun crime and every year the Government blamed it on licensed holders. Now they've got nobody to blame but themselves." He suggested that the Government should consider giving back firearms to licensed holders. Last year's 3,685 crimes involving handguns included 310 attempted murders, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries. The total was more than a third up on the previous year, according to figures given in a parliamentary written answer by Lord Bassam of Brighton, a Home Office minister. The number of handgun offences was higher in 1992 and 1993, at 3,997 and 4,202 respectively, but in each year there were fewer killings than last year. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Anti-hunt group told to scrap hare advert
From: RustyBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telegraph 10.1.01 Anti-hunt group told to scrap hare advert By Thomas Harding THE League Against Cruel Sports has been ordered to withdraw an advert that made "misleading" claims about hare coursing. The anti-hunt group was censured by the Advertising Standards Authority after the Countryside Alliance Campaign for Hunting objected to the wording in a fund-raising leaflet called "Don't Let Britain's Wildlife Go To The Dogs". Claims in the literature, which featured a photograph of two dogs biting a hare, that the animals collapsed and died during chases were inaccurate, according to the pro-hunt lobby. The Countryside Alliance disagreed with the assertion that hare coursing contributed to a decline in the hare population. They also objected to the leaflet's reference to "those few hares that manage to escape", saying that seven out of eight hares escaped. The advertising authority agreed that high levels of hares were maintained in areas where hunting and coursing was practised and said the League had been unable to prove that hares died during chases. In its ruling, the authority said that, according to the Burns inquiry into hunting, the number of hares killed at coursing events was between one in six and one in eight. It upheld three complaints against the League and told them not to repeat the claims. A spokesman for the League Against Cruel Sports said: "We accept the judgment and we will not be repeating these claims. However, the countryside Alliance did not challenge our claim that hare coursing is cruel." Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-US Right-To-Carry Laws
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This first bit is really directed at ET: - would you agree that the US right-to-carry laws are in fact providing the US State and Federal governments with a list of those most likely to use ANY arms at all to defend themselves with against ANYONE - which includes for example the US government? It's perfectly possible to write a law in the reverse form and say it's an offence to carry a pistol if you have any of a list of such-and-such criminal convictions, an extent of so much of such-and-such drugs in your body, if you have a history of such-and-such mental illness and that it's an offence if you don't have a gun-safe of such-and-such a build standard in your home to keep guns, ammo etc in. Similarly-phrased laws could be used to make it an offence to keep guns insecurely at home, insecurely in your car, cocked on their belt etc. That's the US situation. But when we look at the UK situation it's the same - what the governments are doing in both cases is intended among other things to provide them with LISTS of people with guns and the skill and willingness to use them, LISTS of guns and the LOCATIONS of both. Plus lots of excuses for taking them off you. They have lists of ex-service people already, of course. Firearms laws don't NEED to be processes which identify individuals, but they are even when they're "merely a revenue-raising measure". What governments are really doing is listing potentially capable enemies, "Security Risks", isn't it? Any comments on this? Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org -- This has been one of the arguments GOA have used against such laws - however, in most States when you have a carry permit they don't actually know what guns you possess. In addition, so many people have permits that I think it would be quite hard to send around the National Guard to disarm them all or to use it as some sort of list of possible subversives. You have to have an FBI fingerprint check when you apply for a permit, so that does put you into their computer. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-A female perspective.
From: "David M", [EMAIL PROTECTED] EMAIL ADDRESS OF WRITER:- Elizabeth Bromstein's E-mail address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] PUBLICATION: Montreal Gazette DATE: 2001.01.09 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A4 COLUMN: Page Four Column BYLINE: ELIZABETH BROMSTEIN SOURCE: Freelance Home, home on the range: Pistol-packing mama guns for tranquility There are so many things I've never done. I've never gone skydiving. I've never been on a spiritual quest. I've never crowd-surfed, smoked crack, won a beauty pageant, read War and Peace, been a Bond girl or battled a gang of ninjas. You might say I haven't really lived. Up until last week, I had never shot a gun either. And it dawned on me recently, while reading yet another article on gun control, that unlike battling ninjas or smoking crack, this was actually something I wanted to try. I know all kinds of people who grew up target-shooting on farms, but coming from a very urban upbringing, I had never even had the opportunity to touch a gun - oh, except for the time my friend Paddy found one. We were going to turn it in, but forgot his bag in the restaurant where we stopped for lunch. The only other thing in there was his flute. I can imagine the look on the face of whoever found it. Secret Location So I decided to give it a go. The first thing I discovered is that, unlike how I imagine the U.S. to be (shooting galleries in the back rooms of privatized liquor stores), it's not easy to find somewhere to shoot in Montreal. It took some investigating before I found a place; even then, I was asked to please keep the name and location secret. Club members are understandably afraid of being swamped with the wrong kind of visitors - anti-gun zealots. I agreed and was invited to come on down for a handgun-shooting lesson. Bill (last name withheld) assured me that I would enjoy myself, saying members ``come here to forget all their troubles, forget all their cares.'' When you're alone and life is making you lonely, you can always go shoot a gun. Sounded good to me. First, I was greeted by a gang of exuberant older men that included an elevator-operator, a well-known landscape artist and a war hero missing the fingers of an entire hand. These people love their sport and are not happy about feeling marginalized because of it. And all, it appears, were hoping that I would leave feeling the experience had been a positive one. ``People think we're a bunch of yahoos,'' lamented Dale, the club president. So I feel it is my duty to tell you that there was not a yahoo among the bunch. Bill started me on a .22 automatic, showing how to load it, outlining safety precautions (I can't stress how seriously these people take gun safety) and assuring me it couldn't hurt me as long as I didn't point it at myself. The bullets are small and the gun doesn't make much of a bang, but I was nervous and my hands were shaking when I pulled the trigger (not a good thing). Then I pulled it five more times and when I saw, through a telescope, that I had actually hit the target (once) 20 yards away, I felt like a superhero. The Natural I had been told that pistol-shooting takes more co-ordination and concentration than any other sport. How could a woman who can't walk through her apartment without hurting herself not be thrilled to discover she's not half bad at it? Then I tried a .38 revolver, which makes a louder bang but was definitely my favourite. I was starting to feel a little more confident until I tried the .45, which jerked back in my hand and scared the living daylights out of me. Back to the .38. And I was good! At least, that's what Bill told me and I choose to believe him, even if he was just being nice. Women, I'm told, are naturally better marksmen than men. The better I got, the better it felt. Also, Bill was right. ``Tell me,'' he said after I had finished. ``What were you thinking about while you were shooting?'' That's when I realized I had forgotten all about a personal matter I'd been crying over all morning. I hadn't been thinking about anything but the target. I had, in effect, forgotten all of my troubles and all of my cares. Wow. Waddaya know? I can see why people get hooked on this sport. And it looks like there is still a lot of interest out there. Several people I mentioned this to have begged me to take them to the range. So if I can get permission, they might be swamped with visitors after all. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Times Today NHS 800 Deaths
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wooow, guess what was tucked away on page 2 of The Times today Jan 10th?? Well here is the TOTAL report, which was given 8 lines, a line per 100 killed ""800 Blood Deaths"" "More then 800 haemophiliacs infected with HIV after being treated with contaminated blood products have died. John Denham, Health Minister, said, "About 1,240 sufferers contracted the virus through NHS treatment"" So there you have it, it's OK for the NHS to kill 800 through negligence and the dead get an 8 line statement, not so much as a "sorry" etc. Tom Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-Shops flout teenage knife law
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be missing something here. I understand why it is illegal to SELL children knives, cigarettes, alcohol etc, but why is not illegal for under age individuals to BUY or attempt to buy these articles? My wife worked for some years in a newsagent's shop, and suffered abuse and threats from underage individuals when she refused them cigarettes, lighter fuel and other solvents. Why is the burden of responsibility placed on the supplier, with as far as I am aware no such onus placed on the buyer to comply with the age restrictions imposed by law? Can anyone throw any light on this? regards Martin Kay Steve, Martin, I think it has something to do with old English law having to do with the age of majority, and the ability to be able to make informed decisions, as well as having to do with corrupting the morals of a minor. That an agent or and assign is deprived under law from dispensing certain things to minors, is relevant in that the edict: Minor ante tempus agere non potest in casu proprietatus nec etiam convenire; differetur usque aetatem; sed non cadit breve. A minor before majority cannot act in a case of property, nor even agree; it should be deferred until majority; but the writ does no fail. Black's Law Dictionary -- Sixth edition. Chalk it up to the state attempting to take care of the children, by transferring the guilt of both parties to one party only. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-38 Special
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Didn't someone produce .38sp with plastic cases some years back? I think they may have had some weird copper bullet as well? ~~~ Back when I had my Model 15 I acquired some peculiar 38 SPL cartridges which were injection moulded in one piece in blue plastic. The bullet was joined to the case by a weak line of plastic which broke on firing. The bullet which weighed about 60 grs (IIRC) then exited the muzzle at about 2000 fps. The cartridge was fired by a shotgun primer in the base of the case and contained a large amount of very fast powder. The idea was that it packed a wallop at very close range but lost energy very rapidly. It was in use for indoor training but I was told it was developed for secuurity use on airliners, how true that is I don't know. I believe it was made by Geco and I did see some in 9mm. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-proofing
From: Peter H Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] In recent discussions the proofing of chamber inserts has been discussed at some length. Proofing is a routine procedure which we all accept but one of our contributors implied that the benefits were questionable. This raises a few questions. How is the proof load for any cartridge type calculated? CIP Proof pressures are generally specified as at least 30% higher than the highest mean Service Pressure. But this is measured in a special test barrel. When a different round is fired in a different barrel, the pressure may be substantially higher or lower. How big is the overload over a normal load? (what is a normal load?) Service Pressure is defined as "the load... intended for use in safety in a barrel or arm". After the proof load has been fired, what is the procedure for examining the firearm? The rules state: "After the firing of the proof loads, a barrel or arm shall be inspected again to ascertain if any material change has taken place as a result of such firings" (new para) "Where metallic cartridge cases are employed in proof, these shall be examined after firing, for evidence of distortion or incorrect headspace". Does the result tell us anything useful? With modern metallic cartridge arms, the procedure "tests" the weakest component, which is generally the brass case. So after one or two grossly over-pressure rounds to confirm the adequacy and robustness of the action design with regard to escaped gas handling, further tests don't really tell us much. For instance, I understand that no production Ruger 10/22 rifle is proof-tested by the factory and no new Ruger arm has failed British proof. But please see below and judge for yourself. Can it be used to accurately predict how any particular firearm will respond to repeated firing of a lower charge? No. But individual semi-destructive or "proof" testing is known to reduce the mean service life of tested components. It is something of a mystery to me, I hope someone can shed some light on this. Last year I was asked by a client to provide some observations on the proofing process. This is what I wrote: The present method of proof has its origins in the 16th century and materials science has moved on somewhat since those days. The aero industry now uses non-destructive testing procedures on the actual components, confining the overstress "semi-destructive" tests to sample components. Their reason was that such tests on the actual components to be used were found to actually contribute to the failure rate of those components. Various proposals have been advanced for a more modern and effective quality assurance (QA) system for firearm manufacture, but they have been opposed by the Proof Houses. At the CIP plenary session in Moscow in 1998, the British delegation voted down a proposal to move from individual proof to "Prototype Type Approval". Discussions with some of the top people in CIP revealed that there was a lot of resistance to Prototype Type Approval, as the principle of individual proof was seen as central to the ethos (and profitability) of the CIP Proof Houses. There matters rest - for now. It should be noted that Switzerland and the USA both have well-developed firearms manufacturing industries and relatively high per capita rates of civilian gun ownership. In neither country are there queues of people clamouring for proof laws or membership of the CIP because their guns have blown up in their faces. In fact, rifle-makers and users these countries regard our archaic proof laws and procedures with bafflement or derision. It is false to suggest (as the Prosecutor has done in his opening note), that in this day and age it is only the strict application of the CIP proof system which ensures the safety of operation of all small arms produced in this country. If anything, my experience as a gun dealer suggests that the opposite is true. By what appears to be lax quality control of their own procedures, the English Proof Houses do sometimes blow up some perfectly good rifles (like Mr Callum Ferguson's 6 mm PPC Stolle rifle which was destroyed with a charge of the wrong powder by the Birmingham Proof House). More worrying, however, is the fact that the English Proof Houses sometimes fail to identify potentially life threatening faults such as the excessively long bedding screw which I found on Remington M700 rifle no. E6896813 which could have prevented the bolt from being properly closed. Unsuspecting dealers and users are led to believe that if a gun has been proof-marked it must be safe (or at least that a court will judge it so), and they may be lulled into skimping essential pre-delivery and regular safety maintenance checks. Apart from guns, there are few other items which are required to be proof tested before or during their service lives. Two examples are construction site or
CS: Pol-Political Correctness
From: "David M", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The boy's drawing was obviously - inappropriate - but perhaps the appropriate reaction might have been a clip round his ear'ole from his Dad. But then, what do I know? I'm a middle aged, middle class heterosexual male caucasian. Kenneth Pantling Yes, and what is more Kenneth, you have on previous ocassions exhibited a significant level of common sense. This tends to support my belief that you are a bit of a failure at this political correctness stuff. Regards, David. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The March In March - Registration Info
From: "Earl W", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I appreciate that everyone probably knows about the March on the 18th March the debates for and against it (Lack of support in 1997 being one) Yes, I did borrow this information from the Sportsman's association Website, to send to my friends as an email, hopefully the SA won't mind it being used for this purpose - I did ask I was told it was ok - Thanks Guys This is a copy of the email I thought I should share it with all the Cybershooters out there, feel free to forward it to all in your email address book, as I hope my friends will do also. Best Wishes EW http://www.sportsmans-association.org http://www.march-info.org/ REGISTRATION FOR THE MARCH The Countryside Alliance have requested all those who intend to take part in the March on 18th March 2001 to phone their telephone hotline and register their intention. The March Registration Hotline number is 0906 788 1680 (Calls should cost no more than 1) The cost of the call will help to pay for your information pack, car sticker and an "I Have Registered" badge. Why are the Countryside Alliance Asking People To Register (This information is taken from the CA's March Website) a.. First and foremost to pledge your support to "Liberty Livelihood" and to make a committment to marching on Sunday 18th March. b.. To help the organisers in their logistic planning by providing an indication of the likely numbers to attend. c.. To receive information about the March in a cost effective manner. d.. To receive a car sticker and badge which you can use to help to promote the march. e.. To join the "Roll of Honour", we plan to produce a list of all marchers which, in its own way, will form the basis of a petition to support the event. f.. To help promote the March, the more marchers we have registered in advance the better, and such information can only assist us in our overall PR campaign. The Countryside Alliance will not pass the information you give them to anybody else and will only be used by that organisation to inform you about the March and related events and initiatives. SHOOTERS AND THE MARCH: A CLEARLY DEFINED GROUP The Sportsman's Association feels very strongly that SHOOTERS must be a clearly defined group of people within the mass of people protesting on March 18th 2001. It must be obvious to the watching media and political leaders that the rights of shooters is one of the issues being supported by the March and that shooters form a prominent percentage of those who are marching. The Countryside Alliance are in full agreement with the idea of the identifcation of shooters as a group of people within the March. There are things we can do to ensure that shooters, as a body, are clearly identifiable. 1. The Organisation Of Shooters' Coaches It is very important that shooters from different areas of the country arrive in London together, and the easiest way to do this is to organise Shooter's Coaches. It is tempting to think that it is easier for individuals to organise their own transport (cars, trains etc) and then meet up at the start of the March. This will be virtually impossible because of the sheer number of people who will be on the streets of London that day, as anybody who attended the previous Countryside March will be well aware. To keep shooters in groups it is essential that they arrive together in London and the best way to do this is by organising coaches (or possibly booking a carriage or two on a train - assuming the railways are running "normally" by then). Parking is obviously as issue for the Coach Drivers upon arrival in London. The Countryside Alliance have advised us that Coach Organisers should register for the March (as should all people intending to take part) and they will be forwarded information about parking facilities organised by The Countryside Alliance. Registration information can be found by Clicking Here! 2. Placards, Banners Etc Having arrived as a group, and hopefully stayed together, Shooters must be a clearly indentifiable grouping within the mass of marching people. One very effective way of doing this is to use sensibly worded placards. Offensive or abusive placards will not help our cause, rather they will diminish effectiveness of our cause. Some suggested "slogans" for placards of banners are: "I love my country - but I fear my government" "Shooters are fighting for Freedom of Choice - We will never give up" "Guns are inanimate objects - it is people who kill" It is suggested that all placards / banners have the Sportsman's Association logo prominently displayed. Indeed some should solely consist of the logo. If anybody has any more suggestions for "slogans" they will be gratefully received and added to the list. Helium Balloons with the logo and messages printed on them would also be very effective as
CS: Target-Proofing
From: "Jim Franklin", [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.] How is the proof load for any cartridge type calculated? How big is the overload over a normal load? (what is a normal load?) After the proof load has been fired, what is the procedure for examining the firearm? [.] Proof is a non-destructive test, (but only just). Failure is indicated by detecting deformity induced by materials being stressed passed their elastic limit. Proof Pressures. These are calculated to simulate: P1. The maximum pressure the weapon system will see in service resulting from a high charge temperature (+63degC), new barrel, heaviest projectile, etc This regime is normally applied to ammunition components. P2. The maximum design pressure for the weapon system. Applied normally to ordnance, ie. barrels, breech rings and breech blocks. P1 is approx 115% of normal operating pressure, P2 is approx 120%. Items subjected to proof are examined using a number of techniques, including crack detection. Up to say 10-15 years ago there was 100% proof of components. However if we take the example of the 105mm Tank Guns System, there had never been a failure so the emperical evidence was accepted and only a sample proof was carried out thereafter. [.] Does the result tell us anything useful? Can it be used to accurately predict how any particular firearm will respond to repeated firing of a lower charge? [.] Proof is a confidence building exercise, a belt and braces technique. It tests the "Strength of Design". It tells us the system as designed is sound and should not fail in service. It is "Safe and Suitable for Service" to quote the correct phraseology. Predicting life cycle behaviour is not really a function of proof. Most weapons systems will be shot out before fatigue failure occurs. Wear rates are subject to many variables, Firing rate, charge temperature being the most significant. Jim Franklin Orpington KENT. UK PGP key on request -- I think the title of this message should be: "proving"! On the subject of proving barrels, I don't think RO in Nottingham prove every rifle barrel either. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-38 Special
From: nick royall, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I remember a blue plastic case and a composite plastic/copper powder bullet. Probably for particular purposes that we arent supposed to know about. Nick -- I have some Geco plastic training ammo in 9mm, that has a blue plastic case, a blue plastic bullet and the base of the case is made from aluminium. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Leading without powder?
From: "Christopher Gould", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thankyou for all the postings replying to mine about FAC air rifles / leading. Although I have a .22 rimfire and a .17 Rem on open certificate the reason for my interest in FAC air rifles is that the beech wood suffering terrible damage from grey squirrels was planted in 1958 , the trees are now rather large, the squirrels typically eat out the crown just below the top of the tree which is where you typically see them. A typical shot is upwards at about 45 degrees from a range of about 20 yards; not the sort of shot I would dream of taking for safety reasons with a .22 rimfire especially since the wood is near to a busy road. Also, a neighbouring property is used for horse breeding and some of the mares there are of a nervous disposition, obviously I like to get on well with the neighbours so I don't like using a shotgun for reasons of noise. The idea of a light projectile which quickly runs out of steam seems a good one, I don't like the idea of casting my own extra heavy pellets, again for safety/carryover reasons. In passing, have we not accidentally hit on a way of resolving an age old controversy? I refer of course to the ancient dispute between those who claim that leading is due to some sort of friction, and those who claim that it is caused by the hot propellant gases melting the bullet base. Can some one not build a monstrous air rifle with a standard (say) 9mm barrel and a really beefy compressed air supply which can be accurately incremented? Using ordinary cast and lubed pistol bullets the velocity could be gradually increased in steps of 100fps from say 500fps to maybe 3000fps with careful examination of the barrel after each shot. Now, if leading is due to powder gases, none should occur; but if it is due to friction, it will happen. Or is it not that simple, or has it already been tried? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Naval Guns: Vulcan
From: "Kay, Martin (DEI)", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dr Pleming is being unnecessarily modest on behalf of Vulcans. U.K. to the Falklands is further than Serbia to anywhere in U.S.A. I know it doesn't look like it on a Mercator projection but try measuring on a Globe. So good luck with restoring the Vulcan and don't let the Americans kid you they flew further. Steve, Were the Vulcan raids not launched from Ascension Island? This is considerably closer to the Falklands than the UK, which is likely to indicate that the USA/Serbia raids were indeed the longest. Regards Martin Kay -- Dunno, there is an airfield there though. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-38 Special
From: "N. L. Cobb", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't know about the unusual cartridges mentioned below but I have a box of .38 Spl practice ammo, plastic cases and bullets, powered by a large primer. Must be at least forty years old and surprisingly durable. Have not seen any for sale in years, though I suppose they may continue to be offered somewhere here in the US. Also have a box of .45 plastic bullets which are similarly powered but require a modified brass case. Ideal for indoor practice with plenty of across-a-room velocity and little report or fumes. Have no idea of the velocity but would not want to be hit with one as the .38 slug will punch a 1/4" deep hole in dry fir, fired from five yards. Were these items sold in pre-Blair Britain? Norm Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-police weapons
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] One intriguing aspect of this is would the police be allowed to use such weapons against Russian Spetsnatz paratroopers. I wonder if, by extension, one could use the European Human Rights Act to argue the point of JHP and JSP? -- No doubt someone will. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
