Re: Adding packages (was: mkfs.jffs2 support in CYGWIN)
Hi, Sorry to dredge up this thread from a few months ago, but I found myself wanting to comment on more than just the segment I was originally intending to cut and paste into a new discussion. On 28/08/2009 7:50 AM, Christopher Faylor wrote: On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:02:08PM +0100, Dave Korn wrote: snip So to help matters, perhaps setup.exe could be installed as part of Cygwin, and a suitably named link to it added to the start menu? Even better if that link would take it directly to the package selection screen. That's not a bad idea at all. Would make Cygwin even more Linux-like! I've actually been trying to make setup.exe more usable from the command line so that it could be used as an update client like yum or apt-get. It isn't quite there yet since it still flashes annoying windows on the screen but it is close. I too like the idea of having setup.exe included as part of a Cygwin package. However, I thought it prudent to put on record that if this were to occur, for Vista (and perhaps Windows 7, I've no experience with it yet), it should be remembered to alter setup.exe either to: a) build with a .manifest much like install.exe and other such apps (as per http://sourceware.org/ml/cygwin/2006-12/msg00580.html) b) a rename from setup.exe to allow running without privilege elevation. I always perform a two part Cygwin installation/upgrade procedure: 1) a command-line download only as an unprivileged user 2) a command-line install as a privileged user. Doing this on Vista, I have myself encountered the issue with UAC not allowing the unprivileged user to run setup.exe (well setup-1.7.exe). To get around this, I have to rename setup.exe to something without those UAC detected sub-strings (install, update, et. al). One thing I've toyed with is making some sort of cyg-update wrapper to setup.exe which hides the screens and ensures that setup can act as a command-line utility. Then it could be used as a command-line utility. Obviously, if it went gui-less, then option a) from above makes most sense. Can I flag at this point that if I run setup.exe from within a Cygwin ssh session, that install seems to work fine and of course, gui-less. Perhaps this can hint at a technique for such a wrapper. Kind regards, Shaddy -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages (was: mkfs.jffs2 support in CYGWIN)
Larry Hall: Adding a link to http://cygwin.com/setup.exe shouldn't be allot of work and may help if the menu was properly named. Good idea. I'll throw a name into the ring: Cygwin package manager. Beyond that requires significant changes to 'setup.exe' What would be needed beyond the packaging? I guess one problem is that setup.exe couldn't update itself; could it rely on the do it at next reboot solution instead? which would require some volunteer effort to make it happen. Don't think I've got spare cycles to commit, unfortunately. cgf: I've actually been trying to make setup.exe more usable from the command line so that it could be used as an update client like yum or apt-get. I think that's well worth doing, since many people do prefer that approach. The big Linux distributions all seem to have ended up supporting both the CLI and GUI approaches though, even if they originally preferred one or the other. Andy -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages
On 08/28/2009 02:55 PM, Andy Koppe wrote: Larry Hall: Adding a link tohttp://cygwin.com/setup.exe shouldn't be allot of work and may help if the menu was properly named. Good idea. I'll throw a name into the ring: Cygwin package manager. While I personally would think that's fine, I'm not sure it addresses the need that sparked this thread offshoot. For people who have trouble recognizing that they need to invoke 'setup.exe' to update, add and remove packages, we might need to be more explicit like Update/Add/Remove Cygwin Software. I'm not married to my alternate wording though. Beyond that requires significant changes to 'setup.exe' What would be needed beyond the packaging? I guess one problem is that setup.exe couldn't update itself; could it rely on the do it at next reboot solution instead? I wasn't actually thinking of packaging 'setup.exe'. I would think that pointing to the version on the web page is always preferable, because then it's never out-of-date. My comments about significant changes were relative to the idea of making 'setup.exe' invoked by any added menu item start on the package selection page. Actually, I don't think this would be real hard (what's another command-line switch after all ;-) ) but it would take some time and effort to do. This is significant effort when compared with the effort required to make no changes. ;-) which would require some volunteer effort to make it happen. Don't think I've got spare cycles to commit, unfortunately. Yes, this is a common problem and a recurring theme. I sympathize. -- Larry Hall http://www.rfk.com RFK Partners, Inc. (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office 216 Dalton Rd. (508) 893-9889 - FAX Holliston, MA 01746 _ A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages
Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote: On 08/28/2009 02:55 PM, Andy Koppe wrote: Larry Hall: Adding a link tohttp://cygwin.com/setup.exe shouldn't be allot of work and may help if the menu was properly named. Good idea. I'll throw a name into the ring: Cygwin package manager. While I personally would think that's fine, I'm not sure it addresses the need that sparked this thread offshoot. For people who have trouble recognizing that they need to invoke 'setup.exe' to update, add and remove packages, we might need to be more explicit like Update/Add/Remove Cygwin Software. I'm not married to my alternate wording though. An actual literal link to the website will just launch a browser and a Save as / Run from ... dialog on most people's machines. I think doing this right would require us to keep a local copy of setup.exe on people's machines. That probably implies making a proper package of it and figuring out a way for it to be able to update itself. Nothing too impossible about that, we could add a command-line option telling setup.exe to duplicate and re-spawn itself from a temp copy, or just wrap a bash script around it to do that. I like the idea of having one link called Package Manager that starts it at the first page and another called Update/Add/Remove Cygwin Software that runs it in unattended install-from-internet mode right through to the chooser page. cheers, DaveK -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 03:27:27PM -0400, Larry Hall (Cygwin) wrote: On 08/28/2009 02:55 PM, Andy Koppe wrote: which would require some volunteer effort to make it happen. Don't think I've got spare cycles to commit, unfortunately. Yes, this is a common problem and a recurring theme. I sympathize. I guess the consolation here is that, so far, no one has claimed that they aren't a programmer but have good ideas that desperately need to be implemented, nonetheless. But maybe that's still coming... cgf -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages (was: mkfs.jffs2 support in CYGWIN)
Andy Koppe wrote: How to install is here: http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/setup-net.html I don't think it's terribly obvious that you simply need to run setup.exe again to add more packages after initial installation. This is not a common thing to do with other installers, and with some installers this might even mess things up, so people might be wary of doing this. Ah. Well. It's not a common thing to do with *Windows* installers, but on Linux - which is what Cygwin aims to emulate - it's absolutely the standard practice to use a single central package management program that updates your whole system for you. So to help matters, perhaps setup.exe could be installed as part of Cygwin, and a suitably named link to it added to the start menu? Even better if that link would take it directly to the package selection screen. That's not a bad idea at all. Would make Cygwin even more Linux-like! cheers, DaveK -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages (was: mkfs.jffs2 support in CYGWIN)
On 08/27/2009 02:59 PM, Andy Koppe wrote: How to install is here: http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/setup-net.html I don't think it's terribly obvious that you simply need to run setup.exe again to add more packages after initial installation. This is not a common thing to do with other installers, and with some installers this might even mess things up, so people might be wary of doing this. I think it's safe to say that most Windows installers are for monolithic software. You install once and you're done. So I expect allot of any disconnect with people is because of this. Of course, for those programs that do allow one to install portions and come back to change that in some way later (this includes a number of popular MS offerings), what I've seen as a pattern is to force people to go to Add or Remove Programs or Programs and Features (depending on the O/S) to do this. I don't think that's a great model or metaphor either though I'd have to say that using 'setup.exe' to update/install Cygwin software rather fits with it. There's the message on the intial setup screen, but that's easily overlooked or forgotten. And the page above only mentions it in passing. The lack of awareness of how to add packages might also explain why lots of people seem to select All only to then complain about how long the Cygwin install takes and how much space it occupies. I don't recall much in the way of complaints in this context (I can't figure out how I would add stuff later so let me just install everything now so I don't have to worry about it.) I expect someone has had that thought at sometime though. So to help matters, perhaps setup.exe could be installed as part of Cygwin, and a suitably named link to it added to the start menu? Even better if that link would take it directly to the package selection screen. Adding a link to http://cygwin.com/setup.exe shouldn't be allot of work and may help if the menu was properly named. Beyond that requires significant changes to 'setup.exe' which would require some volunteer effort to make it happen. An alternative might be for someone to set up a web page that would allow the user to pick the packages and that would invoke 'setup.exe' with the right flags to do all that. Of course, that's a different kind of effort, though it shouldn't require changes to 'setup.exe'. -- Larry Hall http://www.rfk.com RFK Partners, Inc. (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office 216 Dalton Rd. (508) 893-9889 - FAX Holliston, MA 01746 _ A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
Re: Adding packages (was: mkfs.jffs2 support in CYGWIN)
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:02:08PM +0100, Dave Korn wrote: Andy Koppe wrote: How to install is here: http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/setup-net.html I don't think it's terribly obvious that you simply need to run setup.exe again to add more packages after initial installation. This is not a common thing to do with other installers, and with some installers this might even mess things up, so people might be wary of doing this. Ah. Well. It's not a common thing to do with *Windows* installers, but on Linux - which is what Cygwin aims to emulate - it's absolutely the standard practice to use a single central package management program that updates your whole system for you. So to help matters, perhaps setup.exe could be installed as part of Cygwin, and a suitably named link to it added to the start menu? Even better if that link would take it directly to the package selection screen. That's not a bad idea at all. Would make Cygwin even more Linux-like! I've actually been trying to make setup.exe more usable from the command line so that it could be used as an update client like yum or apt-get. It isn't quite there yet since it still flashes annoying windows on the screen but it is close. One thing I've toyed with is making some sort of cyg-update wrapper to setup.exe which hides the screens and ensures that setup can act as a command-line utility. Then it could be used as a command-line utility. I fear that if we include setup.exe as-is we'll only hear an increased cry from people who don't like the GUI nature of the program. Although, if you've been around long enough you might recall the hue and cry about the fact that setup.exe *wasn't* GUI based. cgf -- Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html FAQ: http://cygwin.com/faq/ Documentation: http://cygwin.com/docs.html Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple
