Re: Net Libel

2000-04-12 Thread Eric Cordian

steve mynott writes:

> "I'm a racist. I would say they're a clever race. I would say that as a
> race they are better at making money than I am.  That's a racist
> remark.  But they appear to be better at making money than I am.  If I
> was going to be crude, I would say not only are they better at making
> money, but they are greedy."

> "I am a Baby Aryan / Not Jewish or Sectarian / I have no plans to
> marry/ an Ape or Rastafarian."

> "there are so many Auschwitz survivors going around, in fact the number
> increases as the years go past, which is biologically very odd to say
> the least.  Because I'm going to form an Association of Auschwitz
> Survivors, Survivors of the Holocaust and Other Liars, or the
> A-S-S-H-O-L-S."

Irving apparently made quite a number of intemperate remarks after being
made the poster child for Holocaust denial by the usual suspects.

Not too smart, for someone who was planning on suing his critics for
libel.

Of course, none of this quarrel would exist, if we had Nazi film footage
of guards hurling naked Jews into bunkers, and dumping the contents of
containers clearly marked "Zyklon-B" on their heads, and index cards for
every Jew so processed, which could be easily counted by historians like
Irving.

Absent that, and in the presence of some clearly bizarre and contradictory
eyewitness testimony, quarrels over the minutia of the Holocaust will
clearly continue for many years to come. 

I still don't think that someone who believes that the Nazis planned to
exterminate the Jews, do it with mass gassings, and that mass gassings
were carried out in some camps, should be labeled with a term like
"Holocaust Denier" simply because he disputes the numbers, details, or 
characterizes people who try to fuck with his career as assholes and lying
opportunists.  He is almost certainly criticizing their behavior, as
opposed to their religion or race. 

Irving has said that individual Jews he knows and associates with in
everyday life are perfectly nice people. 

Even if he doesn't want his sister to marry one, that's far different 
from saying he claims that the "Holocaust Didn't Happen."

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




Re: Net Libel

2000-04-12 Thread Steve Mynott

On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 10:58:38PM -0700, Eric Cordian wrote:
 
> Much of the "evidence" used to paint Irving as a "Nazi" consisted of
> meticulous documentation of virtually every word he uttered since being
> targeted for deconstruction after the Zundel trial, the fact that after
> being attacked for his views, he had some associations with others holding
> right wing and neo-Nazi beliefs, and his ridicule of the more nonsensical
> aspects of some Holocaust eyewitness testimony.

You think this guy isn't a nazi? If it looks like a duck and
goosesteps like one...

Some quotes from David Irving:-

"I'm a racist. I would say they're a clever race. I would say that as a
race they are better at making money than I am.  That's a racist
remark.  But they appear to be better at making money than I am.  If I
was going to be crude, I would say not only are they better at making
money, but they are greedy."

"I am a Baby Aryan / Not Jewish or Sectarian / I have no plans to
marry/ an Ape or Rastafarian."

"there are so many Auschwitz survivors going around, in fact the number
increases as the years go past, which is biologically very odd to say
the least.  Because I'm going to form an Association of Auschwitz
Survivors, Survivors of the Holocaust and Other Liars, or the
A-S-S-H-O-L-S."



-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pineal.com/


abandon the search for truth; settle for a good fantasy.




Re: Net Libel

2000-04-11 Thread Eric Cordian

Bill Stewart writes:

> On the other hand, today's papers report that David Irving, the
> Holocaust-denying history-reviser, lost his libel lawsuit against
> some people who wrote about him and the inaccuracy of his propaganda.

I read the judge's findings of fact, and some background on the case. 

Apparently Irving was an historian, who never even advertised himself as
any sort of expert on the Holocaust, who made the mistake of testifying on
behalf of Canadian revisionist Ernst Zundel, who was sentenced to jail,
but later freed when the Canadian Supreme Court ruled that the law under
which he was convicted violated his rights.

It was during this trial, that Irving's views on the Holocaust underwent
some sort of evolution, and he re-examined the evidence which existed to
support various claims made by both sides in the debate.

Irving was flamed by a female Jewish history professor in a book called
"Denying the Holocaust."  This seriously damaged his reputation as an
historian, and smeared him.

After getting called all sorts of foul names by Jewish interests, Irving
fought back and related anecdotes about the more unbelievable and clearly
false eyewitness testimony told by some survivors.  He never called the
Holocaust a "hoax", but characterized certain aspects of the historical
record as "legend."

Irving sued for libel, and tried to recover his damaged reputation.  He
defended himself, and had no access to an attorney.

The other side had deep pockets, and spared no expense trying to paint him
as a Nazi.

Very little of the trial revolved around Irving's scholarly works.  The
state of Israel released Eichman's memoirs to the defense for the specific
purpose of demonstating small innacuracies in Irving's scholarship, many
of which Irving admitted to.  But since neither Irving nor any other
historian had had access to Eichman's memoirs before, one can hardly argue
that this constituted deliberate falsification.

Much of the "evidence" used to paint Irving as a "Nazi" consisted of
meticulous documentation of virtually every word he uttered since being
targeted for deconstruction after the Zundel trial, the fact that after
being attacked for his views, he had some associations with others holding
right wing and neo-Nazi beliefs, and his ridicule of the more nonsensical
aspects of some Holocaust eyewitness testimony.

As an example of the latter, he tells of an elementary school ordered to
"teach the Holocaust" where a tatooed survivor terrorized a bunch of small
children with graphic tales of Nazi violence.  When one of the children
asked "But how did you escape?," the woman replied without missing a
beat, "I cut a hole in the back of the gas chamber, and snuck out."

Yeah, right. :)

In any case, Irving's experiences at the hands of the British court
system demonstrates a few basic and (obvious to most of us) facts.

1.  Any man who represents himself has a fool for an attorney.

2.  When a minor history professor spends over 3 million defending 
herself in a lawsuit, she isn't writing her own checks to the
lawyers.

3.  If a Jew calls a gentile a baby-raping murdering Nazi pig
and the gentile calls the Jew an asshole, the press account
of the altercation will read "Gentile Makes anti-Semitic Remark"
or "Jew Victim of Hate Crime."

This metaphor isn't specific to Jews and Gentiles, and applies when a
white male has an argument with any minority deemed "oppressed."

I know lots of Jews were deliberately killed by the Nazis during WWII, 
as part of a deliberate plan to exterminate them, which wiped out almost
all of certain segments of European Jewish society.

For those parts of the historical record for which no documentary or
archeological evidence exists, and eyewitness accounts are many and
mutually contradictory, I have no magic method of determining which
version of events constitutes indisputable historical fact, much less
historical fact that would withstand $3 million dollars worth of
microscopic scrutiny by vested political interests. 

I don't know whether German gas technology stopped with the "gasmobiles"
used in the euthanasia program, evolved to gymnasium-sized mass-gasing
chambers allegedly installed at all major concentration camps, or existed
in some form in between those two extremes. 

I certainly can't answer any questions about "What did Hitler know, and
when did he know it?"

I can't cite a number of Jews killed which is accurate to 7 decimal
places, nor can I divide those Jews into neat little columns labeled
"Shot", "Gassed", "Typhus", "Worked to Death", and "Told Joke About
Fuhrer."

Does that make me a Racist, a Revisionist, or in the immortal words of
Bill Stewart, "a lying Nazi scum?"

Gosh I hope not.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




Re: Net Libel

2000-04-01 Thread Duncan Frissell

At 01:07 PM 4/1/00 -0800, Lizard wrote:
Yes, but this is the Internet, and with both you and Phil's longstanding 
reputations, it's easy to discount ridiculous hyperbole. I doubt anyone 
take Phill seriously enough that you'd have any case. I must confess that, 
if asked, I'd have to testify that I consider Phill's opinion on such 
issues as gun rights to be so laughable that I could not in good faith 
claim his statements were libelous, for a key component of libel is 
credibility.

Also Phil is on this side of the water these days (isn't he?) where it's 
much harder to win libel judgements.

I hope Phil realizes that the dread libertarians on the list don't think 
libel law should exist.

DCF