Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[Razer]

On 03/01/2017 11:11 PM, oshwm wrote:

> I'd take someone with good imagination who has to look up fine details over 
> someone who has a photographic memory and no imagination any day.


The money men opted for lack of imagination and ability to smile at your
co-worker even as you plan their assassination. Because it alway worked
before.

Rr

> On 2 March 2017 04:22:34 GMT+00:00, "James A. Donald"  
> wrote:
>> On 3/2/2017 1:00 PM, Razer wrote:
 A number of programmers have taken it Twitter to bring it to
 everyone's, but particularly recruiter's, attention about the
>> grueling
 interview process in their field that relies heavily on technical
 questions.

 David Heinemeier Hansson, a well-known programmer and the creator of
 the popular Ruby on Rails coding framework, started it when he
 tweeted, "Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort
 on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I
>> don't
 do riddles." Another coder added, "Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead
 at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up
 how to get length of a python string." Another coder chimed in,
>> "Hello
 my name is Mike, I'm a GDE and lead at NY Times, I don't know what
>> np
 complete means. Should I?"

 A feature story on The Outline adds:

> This interview style, widely used by major tech companies including
> Google and Amazon, typically pits candidates against a whiteboard
> without access to reference material -- a scenario working
> programmers say is demoralizing and an unrealistic test of actual
> ability. People spend weeks preparing for this process, afraid that
> the interviewer will quiz them on the one obscure algorithm they
> haven't studied. "
>
 A cottage industry has emerged that reminds us uncomfortably of SAT
 prep," Karla Monterroso, VP of programs for Code2040, an
>> organization
 for black and Latino techies, wrote in a critique of the whiteboard
 interview. [...] This means companies tend to favor recent computer
 science grads from top-tier schools who have had time to cram; in
 other words, it doesn't help diversify the field with women, older
 people, and people of color.

>>> With links:
>>>
>> https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/03/01/1643251/programmers-are-confessing-their-coding-sins-to-protest-a-broken-job-interview-process
>>
>>
>> I have not studied any of these things since forever and a day, but I 
>> can still pass all of them, and anyone who cannot, should not be hired.
>>
>> I think the last time I read what a bubble sort was, or had to think 
>> about a bubble sort, was when I read Knuth, more decades ago than I
>> care 
>> to admit, and yet I can do a bubble sort off the top of my head on a 
>> whiteboard.
>>
>> If companies have a lot of people who could not pass these tests, or 
>> could not pass them without cramming, they should fire a lot of people.
> I'd take someone with good imagination who has to look up fine details over 
> someone who has a photographic memory and no imagination any day.

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[James A. Donald]

"James A. Donald"  wrote:

These are not tests of rote memorization.  Someone who passes them by
rote memorization is cheating.  These are tests of ability to write a
simple program.

You ask someone to write a bubble sort, not because anyone ever needs a
bubble sort, but because the program you actually need someone to write
cannot be looked up on the internet.


On 3/2/2017 6:52 PM, oshwm wrote:

Then what is the use of asking someone to write a bubble sort (which has been 
written a million times) - surely you should pick something that hasn't been 
written before?


It is convenient to ask someone to write a bubble sort because one can 
compactly express the problem.


Another popular test is fizz buzz: Print out the integers 1 to 100, 
except that for each integer divisible by three print "fizz", for each 
integer divisible by five print "buzz" and for each integer divisible by 
both three and five, print "fizz buzz"


There are a huge number of little tests like this, and because people 
are cramming on common ones like bubble sort and fizz buzz, you need to 
invent ever more obscure ones so that the cheaters will be unprepared.


And, by and large, that is in fact what we are doing: Inventing ever 
more obscure tests to beat the cheaters.  If your interviewees can guess 
the program they will be asked to write, you need to fire your interviewers.

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[oshwm]

On 2 March 2017 07:22:48 GMT+00:00, "James A. Donald"  
wrote:
>On 3/2/2017 5:11 PM, oshwm wrote:
>> I'd take someone with good imagination who has to look up fine
> > details over someone who has a photographic memory and no
> > imagination any day.
>
>These are not tests of rote memorization.  Someone who passes them by 
>rote memorization is cheating.  These are tests of ability to write a 
>simple program.
>
>You ask someone to write a bubble sort, not because anyone ever needs a
>
>bubble sort, but because the program you actually need someone to write
>
>cannot be looked up on the internet.

Then what is the use of asking someone to write a bubble sort (which has been 
written a million times) - surely you should pick something that hasn't been 
written before?

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[James A. Donald]

On 3/2/2017 5:11 PM, oshwm wrote:

I'd take someone with good imagination who has to look up fine

> details over someone who has a photographic memory and no
> imagination any day.

These are not tests of rote memorization.  Someone who passes them by 
rote memorization is cheating.  These are tests of ability to write a 
simple program.


You ask someone to write a bubble sort, not because anyone ever needs a 
bubble sort, but because the program you actually need someone to write 
cannot be looked up on the internet.

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[oshwm]

On 2 March 2017 04:22:34 GMT+00:00, "James A. Donald"  
wrote:
>On 3/2/2017 1:00 PM, Razer wrote:
>>> A number of programmers have taken it Twitter to bring it to
>>> everyone's, but particularly recruiter's, attention about the
>grueling
>>> interview process in their field that relies heavily on technical
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> David Heinemeier Hansson, a well-known programmer and the creator of
>>> the popular Ruby on Rails coding framework, started it when he
>>> tweeted, "Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort
>>> on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I
>don't
>>> do riddles." Another coder added, "Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead
>>> at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up
>>> how to get length of a python string." Another coder chimed in,
>"Hello
>>> my name is Mike, I'm a GDE and lead at NY Times, I don't know what
>np
>>> complete means. Should I?"
>>>
>>> A feature story on The Outline adds:
>>>
 This interview style, widely used by major tech companies including
 Google and Amazon, typically pits candidates against a whiteboard
 without access to reference material -- a scenario working
 programmers say is demoralizing and an unrealistic test of actual
 ability. People spend weeks preparing for this process, afraid that
 the interviewer will quiz them on the one obscure algorithm they
 haven't studied. "

>>> A cottage industry has emerged that reminds us uncomfortably of SAT
>>> prep," Karla Monterroso, VP of programs for Code2040, an
>organization
>>> for black and Latino techies, wrote in a critique of the whiteboard
>>> interview. [...] This means companies tend to favor recent computer
>>> science grads from top-tier schools who have had time to cram; in
>>> other words, it doesn't help diversify the field with women, older
>>> people, and people of color.
>>>
>>
>> With links:
>>
>https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/03/01/1643251/programmers-are-confessing-their-coding-sins-to-protest-a-broken-job-interview-process
>
>
>I have not studied any of these things since forever and a day, but I 
>can still pass all of them, and anyone who cannot, should not be hired.
>
>I think the last time I read what a bubble sort was, or had to think 
>about a bubble sort, was when I read Knuth, more decades ago than I
>care 
>to admit, and yet I can do a bubble sort off the top of my head on a 
>whiteboard.
>
>If companies have a lot of people who could not pass these tests, or 
>could not pass them without cramming, they should fire a lot of people.

I'd take someone with good imagination who has to look up fine details over 
someone who has a photographic memory and no imagination any day.

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 02:22:34PM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 3/2/2017 1:00 PM, Razer wrote:
> >>A number of programmers have taken it Twitter to bring it to
> >>everyone's, but particularly recruiter's, attention about the grueling
> >>interview process in their field that relies heavily on technical
> >>questions.
> >>
> >>David Heinemeier Hansson, a well-known programmer and the creator of
> >>the popular Ruby on Rails coding framework, started it when he
> >>tweeted, "Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort
> >>on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I don't
> >>do riddles." Another coder added, "Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead
> >>at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up
> >>how to get length of a python string." Another coder chimed in, "Hello
> >>my name is Mike, I'm a GDE and lead at NY Times, I don't know what np
> >>complete means. Should I?"
> >>
> >>A feature story on The Outline adds:
> >>
> >>>This interview style, widely used by major tech companies including
> >>>Google and Amazon, typically pits candidates against a whiteboard
> >>>without access to reference material -- a scenario working
> >>>programmers say is demoralizing and an unrealistic test of actual
> >>>ability. People spend weeks preparing for this process, afraid that
> >>>the interviewer will quiz them on the one obscure algorithm they
> >>>haven't studied. "
> >>>
> >>A cottage industry has emerged that reminds us uncomfortably of SAT
> >>prep," Karla Monterroso, VP of programs for Code2040, an organization
> >>for black and Latino techies, wrote in a critique of the whiteboard
> >>interview. [...] This means companies tend to favor recent computer
> >>science grads from top-tier schools who have had time to cram; in
> >>other words, it doesn't help diversify the field with women, older
> >>people, and people of color.
> >>
> >
> >With links:
> >https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/03/01/1643251/programmers-are-confessing-their-coding-sins-to-protest-a-broken-job-interview-process
> 
> 
> I have not studied any of these things since forever and a day, but I can
> still pass all of them, and anyone who cannot, should not be hired.
> 
> I think the last time I read what a bubble sort was, or had to think about a
> bubble sort, was when I read Knuth, more decades ago than I care to admit,
> and yet I can do a bubble sort off the top of my head on a whiteboard.

Attempts to sidestep with (e.g.) "Oh, bubble sort's not a good example,
what I should have said was ..." in 3 .. 2 ..


> If companies have a lot of people who could not pass these tests, or could
> not pass them without cramming, they should fire a lot of people.

Now there's an idea! Snap computer science drills by your employer ...
Microsoft used to cull the bottom x% (20%?) of their workforce each year
or so, and this might be a way to be 'politically correct' about that
process of culling ...

"We might not have secure employees, but at least they all damn well
know their np- from their turing- completes :D

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 07:00:12PM -0800, Razer wrote:
> > A cottage industry has emerged that reminds us uncomfortably of SAT
> > prep," Karla Monterroso, VP of programs for Code2040, an organization
> > for black and Latino techies, wrote in a critique of the whiteboard
> > interview. [...] This means companies tend to favor recent computer
> > science grads from top-tier schools who have had time to cram; in
> > other words, it doesn't help diversify the field with women, older
> > people, and people of color.

Because "racially and genderly diversifying the the computer science
field is import because _ _ _ _ !"

Of course, that's a really easy question to answer.

"But ... PRIVILEGE MOFO!" is what then comes back.


Take notice:
 - holding first my duty to myself is not evil

 - holding first my duty to my family is not evil

 - holding first my duty to my principles is not evil

 - holding first my duty to my [ ethnic | racial | national ]
   preferences is not evil

 - holding that merit is more important than "geographically localised
   XYZ diversity", is not evil


Feel free to wallow in the evil of your so called privilege and your
so-called "evil" lack of geographically localised XYZ diversity!

Suck it up buttercup, I'm getting on with my life!


I joined this list to escape Snowflake Syndrome (also appearing in the
guise of Stockholm Syndrome and other miasmic myopias).


Sometimes I do wonder at humans ... amazing creatures.

Re: CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[James A. Donald]

On 3/2/2017 1:00 PM, Razer wrote:

A number of programmers have taken it Twitter to bring it to
everyone's, but particularly recruiter's, attention about the grueling
interview process in their field that relies heavily on technical
questions.

David Heinemeier Hansson, a well-known programmer and the creator of
the popular Ruby on Rails coding framework, started it when he
tweeted, "Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort
on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I don't
do riddles." Another coder added, "Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead
at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up
how to get length of a python string." Another coder chimed in, "Hello
my name is Mike, I'm a GDE and lead at NY Times, I don't know what np
complete means. Should I?"

A feature story on The Outline adds:


This interview style, widely used by major tech companies including
Google and Amazon, typically pits candidates against a whiteboard
without access to reference material -- a scenario working
programmers say is demoralizing and an unrealistic test of actual
ability. People spend weeks preparing for this process, afraid that
the interviewer will quiz them on the one obscure algorithm they
haven't studied. "


A cottage industry has emerged that reminds us uncomfortably of SAT
prep," Karla Monterroso, VP of programs for Code2040, an organization
for black and Latino techies, wrote in a critique of the whiteboard
interview. [...] This means companies tend to favor recent computer
science grads from top-tier schools who have had time to cram; in
other words, it doesn't help diversify the field with women, older
people, and people of color.



With links:
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/03/01/1643251/programmers-are-confessing-their-coding-sins-to-protest-a-broken-job-interview-process



I have not studied any of these things since forever and a day, but I 
can still pass all of them, and anyone who cannot, should not be hired.


I think the last time I read what a bubble sort was, or had to think 
about a bubble sort, was when I read Knuth, more decades ago than I care 
to admit, and yet I can do a bubble sort off the top of my head on a 
whiteboard.


If companies have a lot of people who could not pass these tests, or 
could not pass them without cramming, they should fire a lot of people.

CONFESS! Programmers Are Confessing Their Coding Sins!

[Razer]

> A number of programmers have taken it Twitter to bring it to
> everyone's, but particularly recruiter's, attention about the grueling
> interview process in their field that relies heavily on technical
> questions.
>
> David Heinemeier Hansson, a well-known programmer and the creator of
> the popular Ruby on Rails coding framework, started it when he
> tweeted, "Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort
> on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I don't
> do riddles." Another coder added, "Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead
> at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up
> how to get length of a python string." Another coder chimed in, "Hello
> my name is Mike, I'm a GDE and lead at NY Times, I don't know what np
> complete means. Should I?"
>
> A feature story on The Outline adds:
>
>> This interview style, widely used by major tech companies including
>> Google and Amazon, typically pits candidates against a whiteboard
>> without access to reference material -- a scenario working
>> programmers say is demoralizing and an unrealistic test of actual
>> ability. People spend weeks preparing for this process, afraid that
>> the interviewer will quiz them on the one obscure algorithm they
>> haven't studied. "
>>
> A cottage industry has emerged that reminds us uncomfortably of SAT
> prep," Karla Monterroso, VP of programs for Code2040, an organization
> for black and Latino techies, wrote in a critique of the whiteboard
> interview. [...] This means companies tend to favor recent computer
> science grads from top-tier schools who have had time to cram; in
> other words, it doesn't help diversify the field with women, older
> people, and people of color.
>

With links:
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/03/01/1643251/programmers-are-confessing-their-coding-sins-to-protest-a-broken-job-interview-process